Post/Author/DateTime	Post
058 07-09-07, 12:22 AM	Howdy, folks. I don't think I've been here for several months, so it's not particularly likely any of you will recall who I am - regardless, an introduction is unnecessary. I've been gearing up for my next campaign, for which I'm creating my own campaign setting. Apart from lacking any source material from any official campaign settings, I rather enjoy creating my own. It grants me more freedom and flexibility than anything. Creating nations, devising conflicts, and inventing items and characters is, to put it simply, fun. One of my problems with the basic D&D is the Paladin class. I don't think that it's unbalanced, I enjoy playing Paladins, and I believe that they are a great addition to the game. However, I find the class far too limiting. It always seemed to me that the Paladin restricts a player; I feel that there's room for more than one archetype of that class. The law-abiding holy warrior, in my opinion, should only be one of many variations of the class. Thus, I present for your critical analysis, my solution and the product of several days' work - the Crusader(it seems likely that there is already an extraneous class named Crusader, and if there is, please inform me). Crusader Abilities Crusaders are often strong in personality, attracting followers or sometimes simply onlookers. However, this strength of presence is often accompanied by foolishness. Crusaders often act with reckless abandon, forgoing common sense or prudency when it interferes with doing their gods’ work. Charisma is vital for the Crusader’s spellcasting and special abilities. It is important to have a good strength score in order to retain effectiveness in combat, and high constitution improves her longegevity in battle. Alignment Any. Hit Die d10 Class Skills The Crusader’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Survival (Wis). Skill Points at 1st level (4 + Int modifier) x4. Skill Points at Each Additional Level 4 + Int modifier Fighter BAB, good Fort, poor Ref/Will Class Features All of the following are class features of the Crusader. Weapon and Armour Proficiency Crusaders are proficient with all simple and two martial weapons, light and medium armour, and shields (except tower shields). Smite Opposed Alignment A Crusader chooses an opposed alignment and gains the ability to smite it, as the Paladin’s Smite Evil. The opposed alignment can be opposite on either the law-chaos axis or good-evil axis. A lawful good Crusader could choose for her smite to affect either evil or chaotic targets, but not both. A lawful neutral Crusader could choose to smite chaotic targets, evil targets, or good targets, and a true neutral could choose any of the four. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the Crusader gains one additional smite per day. Alternatively, she can gain a secondary Smite attack targeted at a different opposed alignment. For example, a lawful good Crusader at 1st level chooses the ability to smite evil. At 5th level, she can, instead of gaining two of these per day, choose to smite chaos once per day in addition to her Smite Evil. Lay On Hands As the Paladin ability, except as noted below: Evil Crusaders deal negative energy damage, injuring living creatures but repairing undead. Neutral Crusaders choose whether to deal positive or negative energy, but cannot change once decided. At 4th level, the Crusader can choose to gain the ability to Lay On Hands opposite to her first choice—an evil Crusader gains the ability to heal, and a good one is able to deal damage. This second ability is usable once per day, and heals or harms equal to Crusader level plus Charisma bonus. Chosen Weapon At 3rd level, the Crusader chooses one weapon with which she is proficient. This weapon becomes her symbol, and she fights with it as though she had the feat weapon focus. At 8th level, she gains the benefit of improved critical with that weapon. When fighting with any other weapon of similar use (that is, if the chosen weapon is melee, any other melee weapon), the Crusader suffers a -2 penalty to attack rolls. If a Crusader’s chosen weapon is sundered while she is holding it, there is a 50% chance that she will become enraged (see the Barbarian ability), and a 50% chance stunned for 2 rounds. Aura of Courage As the Paladin ability. Turn Undead As the Paladin ability, except as noted below: At 4th level, the Crusader can choose either to gain the ability to perform a weaker Lay On Hands opposed to their alignment or Turn Undead as a cleric of three levels lower a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. For an evil Crusader or a neutral one who chooses so, Turn Undead is replaced by Rebuke Undead. Spells Beginning at 4th level, the Crusader gains the ability to cast a limited amount of divine spells, using the Paladin spell list in addition to those listed below. A Crusader must prepare her spells in advance in the same way that a cleric does. Crusaders cannot use spells directly opposed to their alignment. To prepare or cast a spell, a Crusader must have a charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Crusader’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Crusader’s charisma modifier. A Crusader’s caster level is one-half her Crusader level. Remove/Cause Disease As the Paladin ability, except that Crusaders of evil alignment or neutral Crusaders who choose to do so can cause disease. Code of Conduct A Crusader’s model for behavior is the purest form of her alignment. A Crusader for chaotic evil aims to sow destruction and doubt, while a Crusader for lawful good behaves much as a paladin. If a Crusader intentionally commits an act that is directly opposed to her alignment, she loses all class abilities except for weapon and armour proficiencies. A Crusader’s opposite does not have to apply to both alignment axes. A Crusader for good can be lawful, neutral, or chaotic, and does not lose class abilities for committing an act opposed to that axis. Conversely, a Crusader for law loses her class abilities for becoming chaotic but not for becoming evil or good. Associates A Crusader is not restricted from traveling with characters of an opposed alignment, but they do not often enjoy such business. Crusaders are not restricted from taking henchmen, followers, or cohorts of any alignment, but if their alignment is not within on level of the Crusader’s (as a Cleric to his deity), the Crusader will do no more than issue orders to them and may be considered expendable. Those of similar alignments are often promoted, and those of the same alignment may become close friends. Crusader Spells 1st-Level Crusader Spells Curse Water: Makes unholy water. Inflict Light Wounds: Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5). Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus. Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Lawful: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders. 3rd-Level Crusader Spells Bestow Curse: -6 to an ability score; -4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance of losing each action. Inflict Moderate Wounds: Touch deals 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10). Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. 4th-Level Crusader Spells Dispel Chaos/Evil/Lawful/Good: +4 bonus against attacks by chaotic, evil, Inflict Serious Wounds: Touch deals 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15). Unholy Sword: As Holy Sword, but versus Good.
Rhialto 07-09-07, 03:42 AM	Wasn't this (paladins of various alignments) done in Unearthed Arcana?
lantan_gnome 07-09-07, 04:22 AM	Yes, u can have a looksee for free on the good old SRD ! http://www.d20srd.org/
DreamerInsane 07-09-07, 04:44 AM	And yes, there's a WotC-published Crusader class. It's in Tome of Battle. The Crusader's basic ideas are, thematically a devoted warrior of a god or some other cause, and, mechanically, healing and Just Refusing To Die™
058 07-09-07, 10:29 AM	I'm aware of the Paladin variants on the SRD, and I don't like them. I think that having just one class solves all of the problems without making three new ones, and the Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter variants still have the wretched frozen alignment. Thank you, DreamerInsane, for that information. As I suspect that this class will only see use in my local gaming sessions, I may or may not see fit to change the name. Apart from informing me of further Paladin variants, is anyone going to actually give an opinion of the statistical information I've done?
DreamerInsane 07-09-07, 02:27 PM	Doesn't seem all too bad. Would rather play that than the PHB Paladin.
DogBackward 07-09-07, 04:34 PM	Is there a reason they only get two martial weapon proficiencies? Seems rather... arbitrary and counterintuitive, really.
Paladin_Hiroshi 07-09-07, 05:17 PM	Two major gripes. LACK OF CLASS SKILSS. <<< sorry for the caps, but it has to be said. What's the point in 4 skill points if they don't have any decent skills. (they'd only need 1 or 2 more class skills for this to be ok, maybe spot and listen) Two, they should have all martial weapons. In for one, in for all. Other than that I love the class, being more flexible than the paladin! :) Although I will continue to use my paladin 16/Oak Dancer 6 :D
Rhialto 07-09-07, 05:52 PM	One thing I would add is that, even though these guys can be of any alignment, they should be unable to change alignment (intentionally or unintentionally) without losing their powers, just like a regular paladin.
058 07-09-07, 06:27 PM	Aye, Rhialto, that's covered under "Code of Conduct." At the first level of Crusader, the player decides for what to be a crusader - good, evil, law, chaos, or any combination - and from then on, any deliberate actions against the declared alignment result in immediate loss of all class abilities. As for the class skills, I'll add Listen and Spot. The Crusader has more class skills than the Paladin, but those two make sense. They recieve only two martial weapon proficiency for several reasons. Firstly, I believe that the Fighter should be the only one with all martial weapons, because that's what a fighter is, a martially trained warrior. Secondly, one of the Crusader's biggest class features is Chosen Weapon, which grants improved use of one weapon and one weapon only, and negatives to any other weapons used. Two martial weapons, so that the Crusader can take a ranged weapon if she so desires (negatives only apply to weapons of the same type as the chosen weapon; if it's melee, then ranged weapons aren't penalized, and vise versa). Thanks, everyone, for the comments and opinions; one of the reasons this is such a good place to come with ideas such as this is that the majority of the folk here are relatively polite and, barring that, at least knowledgable on the subject.
058 07-11-07, 07:31 PM	Alright, well, since I last posted here, I've had an idea or two. In hanging around the forums, I've noticed a few folk talk about fallen paladins, generally asking what to do about them. A fallen paladin seems to be a fairly debilitating thing, turning the character into a fighter with no feats. In thinking about this, I have decided to add another thing to my paladin variant (the Crusader about which this thread is), a second class feature progression table under the title "Fallen Crusader." The Fallen Crusader is to be weaker than the normal one, but I aim to give it enough abilities that it still has a place in the party. The way this will work is that when a Crusader falls, all of her previous Crusader levels are exchanged for Fallen Crusader levels. Upon atonement, she regains all of her previous Crusader levels, but any levels gained in the intervening time are kept (so it would be possible to be a 10 Crusader/2 Fallen Crusader), representing the fact that, while no previous knowledge was lost, that which was learned after the Falling was not related to being a Crusader. I am, unfortunately, having a rather hard time locating or coming up with any abilities. Any suggestions?
blowfish 07-12-07, 12:28 AM	Any reason this crusader class doesn't get knowledge(nobility)? I also thought everyone had profession as a class skill, same as craft. Skills need some work there, plus I don't like the paladin's lack of smites, so I obviously think the same of your class' same ability. Yours is a bit better, but not by much.
058 07-12-07, 09:22 AM	I must have missed Profession when I was copying most of the Paladin skills list. Craft, on the other hand, is already up there. She doesn't have nobility because the typical paladin archetype (which is a knight serving a lord)is simply one of several possibilities with this class, not all of which have a reason to know nobility. If a particular Crusader's backstory was essentially that of the archetypal paladin, I (as a DM)would either grant him knowledge (nobility) as a class skill or give him a few skill points to spend for backstory. Of course, I would do the same for any character for any skill. I fail to understand what you mean about smites; are you saying that you're unhappy with the number that the standard paladin gets, and so you wish for the modification to have more? I figured that for the numbers, the statisticians that made them the first time knew better than I, which is why a new smite is gained at the same intervals as the paladin. Your final comment, "Yours is better, but not by much," is actually quite complimenting, because when I began this project, I didn't see the paladin as a bad class, just one that needed a slight fix. Slighty better is, essentially, what I was aiming for. :)
Dungeonrenter 07-12-07, 10:42 AM	Actually, on this I have had a view for a long time. I love playing knightly type characters. Knights and wizards are my two favorite concepts. The paladin is a class that really depends on both the player and dm. If your game master believes lawful good is lawful stupid then your SOL with a paladin. There is a differance between lieing and being deceptive, there is a differance between not cheating and playing to win. One way I have learned if playing a paladin will be possible with a certain dm is to ask the dm if a paladin could ever be a revolutionary. If the answer is no be prepared for a letter of the rules interpretation on everything (personally, the answer is obviously yes, if all legitmate forms of redress are disfunctional a paladin would have no choice but to seek to restablish a new legitmate and respnonsive authority.) Anway, more than that the paladin needs some help on his abilites. Giving him smite was a great addition and choice. However, with the divine feats I think it becomes clear how a much better paladin could be designed. The paladin loses spellcasting. He gains access to "Rightoues Acts" or somthing similar at level one. He gets 3+charisma mod righteous acts per day. The righteous acts would be Smite Evil (available at level 1) Turn Undead (at level 3) Lay on hands (reworked so that its not quite as much healing) etc. Basically convert the paladin over to using his turn undead attempts to power all of his abilties. Then give him a few more based off the old divine feats. Any spells that were unique to the paladins spell list make available as rightoues acts. If it turns out he has to few acts per day give him 1/2 class level +charisma mod like the knight. Either way, I think this would be much better than the current set up. It would make the paladin much more interesting to play.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-12-07, 11:38 PM	Alright, well, since I last posted here, I've had an idea or two. In hanging around the forums, I've noticed a few folk talk about fallen paladins, generally asking what to do about them. A fallen paladin seems to be a fairly debilitating thing, turning the character into a fighter with no feats. In thinking about this, I have decided to add another thing to my paladin variant (the Crusader about which this thread is), a second class feature progression table under the title "Fallen Crusader." The Fallen Crusader is to be weaker than the normal one, but I aim to give it enough abilities that it still has a place in the party. The way this will work is that when a Crusader falls, all of her previous Crusader levels are exchanged for Fallen Crusader levels. Upon atonement, she regains all of her previous Crusader levels, but any levels gained in the intervening time are kept (so it would be possible to be a 10 Crusader/2 Fallen Crusader), representing the fact that, while no previous knowledge was lost, that which was learned after the Falling was not related to being a Crusader. I'd suggest that you rule that a "fallen crusader" simply converts to whatever alignment they've converted to. The whole "fallen paladin = blackguard" standard, which your idea mimics, has always seemed needlessly complicated to me. Is it really necessary to have a whole class devoted to being an anti-crusader? For example, if my NG crusader has a change of heart and becomes NE, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he loses all crusader special abilities. If he comes to accept and embrace 'the dark side', it's equally reasonable to assume that he'd get all his crusader abilities back, except in reverse. In otherwords, I don't see any difference between a NE crusader and a Fallen NG crusader, except that the latter has needless extra mechanics.
058 07-13-07, 02:24 AM	Certainly. The only difficulty with that is it would be just as easy to become another type of Crusasder as it would to atone for whatever screwed you out of it in the first place, and you'd still be a featless fighter for however long it took you to change. If it's set up such that the moment you change alignment, you become another type of Crusader . . . it works, mechanically, but then there's no penalty whatsoever for losing alignment. Perhaps a good DM could stick in something story-related; a lawful good crusader becomes evil, so the members of his previous church or whatever start coming after him throughout the game.
Tequila_Sunrise 07-13-07, 10:19 AM	Certainly. The only difficulty with that is it would be just as easy to become another type of Crusasder as it would to atone for whatever screwed you out of it in the first place, and you'd still be a featless fighter for however long it took you to change. So it's more difficult to just swap out your crusader levels for a bunch of fallen crusader levels? I didn't read thoroughly, so maybe I missed that part. If it's set up such that the moment you change alignment, you become another type of Crusader . . . it works, mechanically, but then there's no penalty whatsoever for losing alignment. Perhaps a good DM could stick in something story-related; a lawful good crusader becomes evil, so the members of his previous church or whatever start coming after him throughout the game. How is this situation different from swapping out crusader levels for fallen crusader levels? If it's just a matter of flip-flopping your levels, I see a similar lack of penalties for changing alignment, and a similar dependance on the DM to create some penalties.
058 07-13-07, 11:33 AM	The Fallen Crusader (I guess I should called it a sub-class) is intended to be a quite a bit weaker than the normal Crusader. The purpose of it isn't to have the player keep the same usefulness after Falling, but to keep at least a semblance of usefulness. The fallen paladin is a featless fighter; it can hit things, but that's about it. I wanted the Fallen Crusader to have a few useful abilities, but not as many as before. On the other hand, if I keep the Fallen Crusader idea, it could be merged with yours - a Fallen Crusader, instead of atoning and restoring her lost levels, could convert those levels to those of a differently aligned Crusader (of course, this would take the same work as atoning or whatever; find a member of some society or organization, or some deity, or somesuch, pledge your allegiance, etc.).
Tequila_Sunrise 07-13-07, 01:42 PM	Ah, I see where you're coming from. I'd still rather not get into the fallen crusader deal, but then it's not my class.
058 07-14-07, 01:10 AM	Well, whether or not there's a Fallen Crusader depends upon how lazy I am within the next few days, because I'll likely declare the class "finished" if I don't do anything before then. Thanks, everyone, for your comments and suggestions. :)