Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DIESCUMDIE 10-25-06, 10:52 AM	I'm thinking of running a campaign where: The characters gain twice the xp and gp. There is no penalty for multiclassing. Classes lose their multiclassing restrictions. You cannot take the same class two levels in a row. You may only gain levels in monster progression every other level. You may not progress your spellcaster level for one class two levels in a row Characters progress as normal after reaching level 20, with none of the normal epic rules except they may gain epic feats. But not epic spell casting. I admit its a stealth spellcaster nerf. But a wizard 7 cleric 7, should be perfectly comparable to a fighter 7 barbarian 7. (Especially considering prestige classes). And a more even match than barb 14 wizard 14. And I think the players will enjoy levelling up twice as fast.
theotherdraxen 10-25-06, 11:26 AM	Why not just run gestalt? It produces a very similar effect to what you're describing.
Thomar_of_Uointer 10-25-06, 11:44 AM	Yeah, I'm thinking gestalt too. It's a good way to get more flexible characters. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
zae 10-25-06, 12:28 PM	Cleric X/Wiz X is not as good as Fighter X/Barb X. Casters get hurt FAR more by multiclassing. A fighter who multiclasses into barbarian loses... some feats. A barbarian who multiclasses into fighter loses out on some HP and rage/DR boosts. The two share the decent HP and good BAB and Fort. So their strengths stack and keep progressing. A wizard who multiclasses into anything stops gaining spells, and old spell levels have a special descriptor in D&D: Worthless. Ditto for a cleric. All that they share, that keeps stacking, are the things all characters get, which neither class really makes as much use of: BAB, skills, HP. They lose out on the big things - the things that make them worth playing. It's the way spellcasting works: you either have it at full power and are fantastic, or you have it at a weakened houserule setting, and you become useless.
DIESCUMDIE 10-25-06, 03:33 PM	'Gish' is the term for a part fighter part wizard. A perfectly viable combination in whatever degree of wizard to fighter. Wizard cleric may not be the best combo but even with lower level spells you can still kick butt. A multiclass wizard cleric (for example) can cast more and a wider variety, with a much reduced power level than a straight wizard or cleric, but still with more power than a dragon adept, dragon shaman, warlock or incarnate, all of which are perfectly competitive classes when compared to a fighter, rogue or such.
starfire311 10-25-06, 04:19 PM	what would you do with PrCs??? would a druid 4/Wizard 3/Mystic theurge 7/ Arcane Hierophant 6 Be doable? I believe can be done by 1st- Wiz 1 2nd- Drd 1 3rd- Wiz 2 4th- Drd 2 5th- Wiz 3 6th- Drd 3 7th- MT 1 8th- Drd 4 9th- MT 2 10th- AH 1 11th- MT 3 12th- AH 2 13th- MT 4 14th- AH 3 15th- MT 5 16th- AH 4 17th- MT 6 18th- AH 5 19th- MT 7 20th- AH 6
sigma999 10-26-06, 12:52 AM	You may only gain levels in monster progression every other level. Yay! That's a lot better than what Savage Species has. Normally you must finish all monster levels before any classes, except by circumstance (but wasn't it discouraged?) I'd play that setting only if the important foes were equally diverse and powerful.
DIESCUMDIE 10-26-06, 12:34 PM	what would you do with PrCs??? would a druid 4/Wizard 3/Mystic theurge 7/ Arcane Hierophant 6 Be doable? I believe can be done by 1st- Wiz 1 2nd- Drd 1 3rd- Wiz 2 4th- Drd 2 5th- Wiz 3 6th- Drd 3 7th- MT 1 8th- Drd 4 9th- MT 2 10th- AH 1 11th- MT 3 12th- AH 2 13th- MT 4 14th- AH 3 15th- MT 5 16th- AH 4 17th- MT 6 18th- AH 5 19th- MT 7 20th- AH 6 Uh... Slightly confused what level wizard and druid would that character cast as? Part of the reason for the system was to half the speed at which casters gained access to higher spells. I've played multiclass wizards, and they're perfectly competitive in comparison to non magic classes.
starfire311 10-26-06, 01:04 PM	Uh... Slightly confused what level wizard and druid would that character cast as? Part of the reason for the system was to half the speed at which casters gained access to higher spells. I've played multiclass wizards, and they're perfectly competitive in comparison to non magic classes. this character would cast as druid 17/ wizard 16 at level 20
zae 10-27-06, 04:21 AM	I still think you'll find they only remain useful if they use their spells for self-buffs only, essentially using spells to be better fighters than fighters etc. Which doesn't solve the problem - they're still doing someone else's job better, it just means they can't choose to instead do their own thing (affecting OTHER people with spells). Still, if it works for you, go for it. Possibly I've never seen it done well, or perhaps "Casters using buffs to become fantastic fighters" is exactly what you're referring to and you'd like the sort of game where you have "Decent/good warriors all the time" and "Excellent warriors some of the time". (And yes, "fighter/warrior" there can pretty much be replaced by "trapfinder/rogue", "spokesman/bard" etc.)
DIESCUMDIE 10-27-06, 09:50 AM	I've added 'You may not progress your spellcaster level for one class two levels in a row' As that was sort of the main point. Otherwise I'm glad this is so far my least disliked magic fix.:)
Thelon Fairblade 10-27-06, 01:25 PM	You could simply say that characters may not take a spellcaster level more than once per 2 levels. That nerfs casting the same way, and removes the need for the other rules.
DIESCUMDIE 10-27-06, 01:58 PM	You could simply say that characters may not take a spellcaster level more than once per 2 levels. That nerfs casting the same way, and removes the need for the other rules. Yes but then everyone would say they wanted to personally kill my mother. I'm trying to make rules my players would want to use. These rules are simple and don't effect the power of casters but simply increase the power of every other class. Its the difference between telling players they'll be leveling up half as fast and telling them they'll level twice as fast.
starfire311 10-27-06, 04:01 PM	why dont you just ban full spellcasters? This is a much simpler solution than the convoluted systems you are coming up with.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-28-06, 08:27 AM	But a wizard 7 cleric 7, should be perfectly comparable to a fighter 7 barbarian 7. (Especially considering prestige classes).This sounds indicative of poor fighter construction. Fighter/barbarian is highly synergistic. Wizard/cleric has two completely different sets of spells, based off of two different ability scores, that don't really compliment eachother in any meaningful way. I can't figure out why magic nerfs are always so complete. There's never a tweak. Never a slight adjustment. It's always, "here, you grab that end of the tablecloth, I'll grab this end, and we yank on three."
DIESCUMDIE 10-28-06, 09:35 AM	I'm sorry but if you think barb7/fighter7 has an unfair advantage over wiz7/cleric7 then you haven't yet experienced the awesomeness of a properly played (or optimised if you must) caster. All other fixes I've investigated either have no impact on the power level or caused posters to froth at the mouth and accuse me of hating players (as if I'm always a dm and never a player). This fix does not touch the casting classes at all, it merely lets other classes abilities scale at a similar level. I cant imagine what anyone could complain about. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose been slightly dissappointed playing a barbarin when levelling up by the meagre gains. This system solves that problem. I know I as a player would never say no to levelling up twice as fast. Its not 'convoluted' at all. Level up twice, but no more than once in any class, Simple. The only problem I can see with this system is that it nerfs warlocks, dragon shamans and dragon fire adepts.
Sylian 10-28-06, 10:22 AM	I'm sorry but if you think barb7/fighter7 has an unfair advantage over wiz7/cleric7 then you haven't yet experienced the awesomeness of a properly played (or optimised if you must) caster. You're not serious, are you? A barbarian 7/fighter 7 is almost as strong as a barbarian 14, a cleric 7/wizard 7 is not nearly as good as a wizard 14. If you would be playing normal D&D and would be a cleric 14, would you think it would be balanced to only cast fourth level spells while the warrior has a bab of 14 and alot of HP? Casters suck in this system. Why not just play gestalt?
starfire311 10-28-06, 12:29 PM	You're not serious, are you? A barbarian 7/fighter 7 is almost as strong as a barbarian 14, a cleric 7/wizard 7 is not nearly as good as a wizard 14. If you would be playing normal D&D and would be a cleric 14, would you think it would be balanced to only cast fourth level spells while the warrior has a bab of 14 and alot of HP? Casters suck in this system. Why not just play gestalt? actually a barb 7/fighter 7 is probably better than a fighter 14 or a barb 14... while a wizard 7/cleric 7 is definatly weaker than a cleric 14 or a wizard 14
DIESCUMDIE 10-28-06, 01:09 PM	Reducing the power of casters is the point. barb 7/fight 7 - has bab of 14, 90hp before con, some extra feats and rage. wiz 7/ cleric 7 - has bab of 8, 53hp before con and can -5 times per day; scrye, divination, dimensional door,(so you can choose when you fight and when you stop) walls of ice, greater invisability, (so you can make it impossilbe for them to win), polymorph, divine power, -and 7 times fly, protection from arrows,etc -and more with rope trick for 7 hours, wraith strike, celerity, wing cover, healing etc. And you can make your own magic items. With the right prestige classes you can do this in armour as well. Yes your direct damage spells and save or sleep spells will not be so effective but you are still competitive and can use magic reserve feats to avoid running out of spells.
Seerow 10-28-06, 01:23 PM	Make the Caster's Caster Level improve in the same way BAB does (ie some classes grant full caster level, some grant 3/4, some grant half), and increase DCs, and I'll call it fair. Because frankly, a Wizard7/Cleric7 has 4th level spells when a straight Caster would be getting close to 8th level spells, and has a caster level so pitiful he can't pierce most SR. And their save DCs are so low that any equal CR encounter saves against them on a 2. As opposed to the Fighter/Barb who still hits regularly, still damages regularly, and still has absolutely no options, which is the REAL problem of those classes, not their inability to kill things with pointy objects. So yeah, give all full casting classes full caster level progression in other casting classes (not spells per day, just caster level), and +1 save DC for every 2 levels. Half-casters (Bard, Ranger, Paladin) get 3/4 casterlevel progression, +1 save DC every 3 levels. Noncasters (Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian) get 1/2 caster level and +1 save DC every 4 levels. For example, a Wizard6/Cleric6 will have Caster Level 12 in both classes, and will gain +3 to all of his save DCs. But he only has spells per day as a 6th level Wizard and 6th level Cleric. A Wizard6/Fighter6 will have a Caster Level 9 as a Wizard, and +1 to all of his save DCs.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-28-06, 02:13 PM	I'm sorry but if you think barb7/fighter7 has an unfair advantage over wiz7/cleric7 then you haven't yet experienced the awesomeness of a properly played (or optimised if you must) caster.I didn't say that. I happen to be of the opinion that the classes are more or less balanced in power if you examine them within their niches. A TWFing rogue with greater invisibility will kill you, unless you're not subject to crits or able to see invisible creatures. I've seen a highly effective cleric in play. He's deific. But I've also seen him spend several rounds burning through his best attacks because he couldn't get through a creature's spell resistance (which is another thing your nerf would empower). I don't feel the need for this. But hey, it's your game.
DIESCUMDIE 10-28-06, 04:27 PM	Make the Caster's Caster Level improve in the same way BAB does (ie some classes grant full caster level, some grant 3/4, some grant half), and increase DCs, and I'll call it fair. Because frankly, a Wizard7/Cleric7 has 4th level spells when a straight Caster would be getting close to 8th level spells, and has a caster level so pitiful he can't pierce most SR. And their save DCs are so low that any equal CR encounter saves against them on a 2. As opposed to the Fighter/Barb who still hits regularly, still damages regularly, and still has absolutely no options, which is the REAL problem of those classes, not their inability to kill things with pointy objects. So yeah, give all full casting classes full caster level progression in other casting classes (not spells per day, just caster level), and +1 save DC for every 2 levels. Half-casters (Bard, Ranger, Paladin) get 3/4 casterlevel progression, +1 save DC every 3 levels. Noncasters (Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian) get 1/2 caster level and +1 save DC every 4 levels. For example, a Wizard6/Cleric6 will have Caster Level 12 in both classes, and will gain +3 to all of his save DCs. But he only has spells per day as a 6th level Wizard and 6th level Cleric. A Wizard6/Fighter6 will have a Caster Level 9 as a Wizard, and +1 to all of his save DCs. ... Thats a good idea to incorporate it though I'll have to re-write the rest of the house rule. The best thing I think then would be to start a new thread. Thanks for advice
Sylian 10-28-06, 05:42 PM	What about just removing one or two spells per level? Casters would loose alot, but it seems to be what you want.