Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shiffd 07-06-05, 05:03 AM	Fatigue. I've seen a few fatigue systems over the year. I took the 3 I liked the best and put something together. Ideally anything that causes fatigue will effect the scale equally. Here it is. There are 5 simple categories that a character can be in. If the character is in a high level of fatigue they will be vulnerable and need rest. If the character does not have a chronic condition fatigue will recover much quicker than HP (if you use HP). The categories of fatigue are- Light- unless enraged etc. the char is aware of their fatigue. They suffer no penalty other than movement is reduced to ¾ normal. Moderate- -1 on everything. Character suffers mental & physical effects. Movement 1/2 Heavy- -3 on everything. movement at ¼. Physical signs of fatigue are showing. Severe- -6 on everything. Movement 1/10. Mortal- Normally this phase of fatigue involves involuntary unconsciousness and 6-12 hours of deep sleep. There are some cases where PC's may force themself to take actions at this phase of fatigue, such actions can be fatal. Normal exertion will not kill though, only cause unconsciousness Recovery as follows (provided fatigue is not generated from chronic condition) Light- 1 Round of rest removes all fatigue Moderate-Turn (10 rounds of rests) ie 1min of rest removes all fatigue Heavy- 1 Hour removes all- PC can make Fort save DC15 every 10 min to return to Mod Severe- 2 Hrs of sleep or sleeplike rest (no distractions, movement etc.)-PC can make Fort save DC15 every half-hour of sleeplike rest to return to Heavy. Mortal- 6 hours of sleep/sleeplike rest.- PC can make Fort save DC15 every 3 hours to return to Severe. ‘rest’ is simply leaning or sitting, normal unencumbered movement and conversation ok ‘sleep-like rest’ is laying w/ no distraction, movement or conversation (moaning ok) If a character is attacked while resting they lose its benefits (IE skipping ones actions for a round does not entitle them to rest recovery if they are still being attacked and are actively defending)
shiffd 07-06-05, 05:10 AM	A turn is still 10 rounds or 1 minute right? I should read up to double check that, if any rule buffs have correction let me know. I mean rounds as 6 sec and turns as a minute. If that's wrong let me know so I can fix my terminology Causing Fatigue. Everything causes Fatigue. Not sleeping, fighting, running, casting spells etc. Each activity needs to be given a mechanic for how it causes fatigue. So I'm going to offer mechanics only for those things that are necessary to track in every game. Other activities can be approximated by the DM on an as needed basis. Here are what I've come up with- Combat Spell casting Not sleeping Combat- Every 10 rounds (1 min) the character makes a Fort save DC 15+consec turn* to see if their fatigue level increases by one. *consecutive turn is the number of turns the char has been battling. So if the characters been in for 1 hour of combat their next fort save would be DC 25. All penalties (ie current fatigue level penalty) apply to the fort check. So if they are severely fatigued then its -4 to the check on top of the 15 + consec turn. I'll cover non-sleep and spells in a second.
rbingham2000 07-06-05, 06:03 AM	OK, a couple of thoughts: One, using a fatigue system like this depends a lot on just what kind of campaign you're running -- something like this would work great if you're running a campaign focusing on a bit of "gritty realism," but it would be a bit out of place in a more cinematic campaign, where a character gets tired only when it's dramatically appropriate. In any case, it adds some more bookkeeping which some GMs would rather not be saddled with. Another note on the fatigue system is that it makes the extreme environments, like the desert or arctic environments, a lot more dangerous for characters -- if you collapse from fatigue in the frozen north, for example, you are going to freeze to death unless you are taken to adequate shelter quickly. Same goes for the desert concerning heat exhaustion and dehydration.
Catra 07-06-05, 10:06 AM	And that's why Horizon Walker is the best PrC ever :P
Paul Hopebringer 07-06-05, 05:12 PM	Yes... Horizon Walker would be great for this... but still... if all the penalties can be negated by taking a level in a prestige class, then the system (or prc) is flawed. (Desert removes fatigue from the game... :pbbbtt: that is just not right) I like the idea of fatigue in combat... but I've already been beaten down in my attempts at a system for it... This system seems a little easier to use, however, and is more complete, so good luck to you! Some things (not nessisarily flaws :D ) you might want pointed out are: 1. Combats are generally short. Thus, this system wouldn't come into play very often. 2. -4= 1/10 ??? -4 wouldn't faze an epic character... the 1/10th would still affect them properly, though. At high levels, a penalty to skills becomes less of a big deal... but the movement is always a pretty big deal. 3. Dying from fatigue fixed up by 5 hours? (heck, just regular end of the day fatigue is enough to put me out for a good 10 hours or so...) 4. The time to recover isn't random... I think it should be...
shiffd 07-06-05, 06:08 PM	Yes... Horizon Walker would be great for this... but still... if all the penalties can be negated by taking a level in a prestige class, then the system (or prc) is flawed. (Desert removes fatigue from the game... :pbbbtt: that is just not right) I like the idea of fatigue in combat... but I've already been beaten down in my attempts at a system for it... This system seems a little easier to use, however, and is more complete, so good luck to you! Some things (not nessisarily flaws :D ) you might want pointed out are: 1. Combats are generally short. Thus, this system wouldn't come into play very often. 2. -4= 1/10 ??? -4 wouldn't faze an epic character... the 1/10th would still affect them properly, though. At high levels, a penalty to skills becomes less of a big deal... but the movement is always a pretty big deal. 3. Dying from fatigue fixed up by 5 hours? (heck, just regular end of the day fatigue is enough to put me out for a good 10 hours or so...) 4. The time to recover isn't random... I think it should be... Thank YOU! What I definitely need is feedback. Hopefully I can fix and improve and stuff. 1. The fact that the system doesn't need to be used much is a good thing. IF combat is short it wont fatigue you in a mechanically challenging way. Thus less bookkeeping needed. However for an epic battle it'll play in, but enlongating and adding mechanics to a climactic battle is worth it, if its your highlight event. 2.Yes I think I need to make the penalty larger. When I said -4 to everything I include AC with that. So I was thinking its more like an overall -8 since it takes away both sides of combat. Well -4 is still too low.... (I'll edit above) 3. The Mortal category is no Mortal if the PC passes out. It's only mortal if they have the following conditions in addition- Major blood loss, organ damage, dehydration, malnurishment, sleep deprivation. And in those cases they get a save. Sleep deprivation comes with an extra # of hours which need to be slept. Malnurishment etc. have food requirements. In these cases someone cannot recover fatigue untill they have eaten etc. So if someone is suffering from Level 4 malnutrition then that means they are permantly at Severe fatigue, 10 rounds of combat etc. and they basically pass out. Anyway I haven't posted stuff for those conditions yet. I'm using the old Wilderness and Survival guide as one of the books for inspiration. It's kinda old though so gotta convert to match with the other 3 books plus 3.5. Anyway for normal exertion fatigue, consider this like waking up in the morning and going to the gym. First thing you do is jump in and do as many reps on each machine as you can, without stopping, of your maximum weight. Also do it as if your life depended on it. Your muscles will get laiden, weak and you'll start feeling dizzy etc. Anyway if you pass out you wont die, you might not even sleep more than 10 minutes. You'll probly wake up in a few hours and just need to chill the rest of the day. Same with marathon runners. Sometimes it kills them, but usually they just passout, need to eat a bunch and relax (sleeplike rest) for the rest of the day. I think my system gets a little unrealistic there but I want to keep it simple. Basically we are assuming that PC's can push themself to a point of exaustion not normally possible, thus that they actually need 6 hours of rest. Most athletes can push themself to about the Severe level of fatigue at which point they collapse etc. and only need about 2 hours rest before getting to Mod or so. The difference is PC's have their life on the line, so I assume they've got the adrenaline etc. on board to push themself a step past where your average olympian might be taking their body. Also I needed to to match a fatigue magic system. I want to post it but I can't get the table into the thread right. I'm gonna try again later.
shiffd 07-06-05, 06:23 PM	Response to point 4. There is a random option of making for save every Xtime to try to move up a cat. So the static number is the time that it takes for fatigue to definitely be recovered from, then there is an option of recovering faster if the PC can make good Fort saves. I wanted to put everything on the same pace so that its easy to manage. basically 5 cats with set penalty & movement rate plus a static heal time and a given round where recovery is possible. If each PC has a roll to determine how long it'll take to recover then you end up with a lot of different numbers to manage. Its not realistic that all of the PC's recover on about the same spot (and not realistic that they gain fatigue at the same round), but its just not possible for the DM to manage otherwise. So I just set it up for every 10 rounds. that way the Dm can just have everyone roll a Fort check on the 10th round, then PC's go up in fatigue or stay where they are. When it gets to recover use the same markers. IE> 10 minutes have past, XYC PC are now recovered, PC B gets a fort save to recover a category, PC M is still at severe so they need an hour to recover any thing etc. Alternatively you could make it a roll (2d6 maybe). so you will remain at that fatigue level for 2d6 rounds. but if 6 PC's get fatigued then that's 6 different roles, and six different rounds where PC's will be changing their fatigue category. Anyway its how much work the DM wants to put into it (and how much the DM trusts/puts on their players to track (honestly) and manage their own fatigue. Using the Fort save means that PC classes which favor physical activity and high con scores will constantly effect the PC's fatigue. Also if they take feats for Fort saves then that will benefit them aswell. Anyway its a simple way to include ones Con etc. into fatigue. It also makes progression and recovery somewhat random (whether checks fail or not) although the time frame for checks arguably isn't random at all.
Paul Hopebringer 07-08-05, 07:52 AM	Ahh... simplicity. Excuse me while I convert to your side of the issue... OK, Random duration=to much work. *I* personally thought that it not coming into play was a good thing, but I thought it was worth pointing out. I wouldn't have it any other way, really. Battles of epic duration are the ones that *need* this sort of thing, anyway... without it, even my heroic fantasy sense of "realizim" is thinking fatigue should be an issue -6 to attack and AC... yeah.. I could see that affecting an epic character as much as the movement :D . Good fix. As for player honesty... I'd make a chart to manage this sort of thing for each of my players. Just put what the direly important stats affected would be... such as movement, attack, defence, and combat skills... and have them divided up into the catagories of fatigue. You could put a marker (i.e. a quarter or something) over the category they are in, and refer to it as often as you need to. That way, not only do you not have to worry about honesty, but you don't have to worry about brain flatulance either. Math can get weird after a few too many hours of play... new systems are usually the first thing to go...
Robbo 07-10-05, 08:22 PM	I like the idea of having a generic fatigue system. This seems better than saying that each level you receive enough Vitality Points to avoid one more "hit" in combat before taking wounds. I would use it in conjunction with a class defence system, and Wound Points (rather than HP or VP). Historically, fighting with heavy weapons, and particularly heavy armour, did lead to troops getting exhausted. In battlefield accounts you sometimes read of: advances on foot being carried out with several rest breaks, men at arms fighting at the front for a while, then being replaced by fresh men from behind while they had a rest, then themselves re-joining the fray, and people wearing almost impervious armour choosing to fight without a visor (or with it raised) to improve ventilation and reduce heat exhaustion (and improve visibility of course). So one enhancement I would make would be to increase the likelihood of becoming fatigued when fighting in or walking far in heavy armour. Also for using heavy weapons.
shiffd 07-11-05, 04:49 AM	So one enhancement I would make would be to increase the likelihood of becoming fatigued when fighting in or walking far in heavy armour. Also for using heavy weapons. That's a good point.... I think that the weight of the armor/weapons would need to be countered in consideration of how strong the player is. So we already track encumberance. Do you think that just giving a penalty for Encumbarance cat. to the fort save would be appropriate? Like if they are not encumbered by the armor/weapon because of their strength, then it doesn't add any extra fatigue, but if they are weighed town they are gonna have a much harder time making their fort save. I'll have to think about it, feel free to suggest anything. On ventilation. I have the old wilderness survival guide that has some different temperature guidelines. I think based on climate & the nature of the characters dress. SO the DC on fort checks would go up considering conditions of climate, and clothing would provide buffer/penalty to that. IE. A character in loose scanty clothing will be relatively unnafected by warm weather, whereas a fully armored character would have a higher DC even in moderate temperature. Characters in robes, leather stuff like that would only suffer in Warm to Hot weather. Again I'll need to put something simple and straightforward together. Kinda an optional rule to an optional rule of people thinks is worth the extra level of complexity. I'm thinking +2 to the DC in fullplate, and +2 for warm to hot weather. People can negate weather penalties by clothing themselves lightly. Wearing fullplate in hot weather would be +4 to DC for the fort saves (if they are also encumbered by the armor they would be even further at a disadvantage).
shiffd 07-11-05, 04:56 AM	Optional fatigue magic system. Characters have spells known/memorized but functionally they are about the same. They can use them at will and will not 'forget them'. When they cast a spell it fatigues them. The higher level they get the better more powerful of spells they can cast, and the less they are fatigued by casting. It works out so that they are limited to the same level of spells but they can cast more freely, and there is less to keep track of. All you need to know is how fatigued they are and what spells they know. Based on level those spells will fatigue them. No need to keep track of what has or hasn't been cast and how many times, only the fatigue and its recovery is tracked, and since its the generic system its the same tracking recovery process as for anyone else. Here is how fatigued people get based on level. Left had column is char level, top is fatigue cat's and the numbers in the middle are the spell levels. Let's see if this table goes in right lvl 0 light 1 Mod 2 Mod 3 Heavy 4 Severe 5 Mortal 6 Fail 1 - - - 0 1 2 3 4 2 - - 0 1 2 3 3 5 3 - 0 1 2 3 4 - 5 4 - 0 1 2 3 4 4 6 5 - 0 1 2 3 4 4 6 6 - 0 1 2 3 4 5 7 7 0 - 1-2 3 4 4 5 7 8 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 7 8 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9 12 1 2-3 4 5 6 7 8 9 13 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 14 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 15 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 16 3 4-5 6 7 8 9 10 11 17 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 18 4 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 19 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 20 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13
shiffd 07-11-05, 05:02 AM	Is there a way to post word docs on here? Ithink I gotta host on my own website and link to it or something like that. Anyway, I'm putting together a doc of optional rules. 1-this fatigue system 2- the magic system that can be used with it 3-a damage recieval methodology that is non-point (non HP, WP etc.). Anywya the fatigue system can be used completely indipendently. The damage recieval and magic system are built on/for the fatigue system. And thanks guys for all your help! Keep the criticism and ideas coming! I think I (we) are coming up with some good stuff.
Paul Hopebringer 07-12-05, 11:43 AM	*IF* you are sure that you *really* want to have a non-point based system for recieving damage, then all I can say is that you either leave it abstract and simple, or go all out and make it as realistic as possible. I can tell you, based on a pool of experience that isn't merely my own, that if the HP system falls between the two, you will never be satisfied. I am not a great source for opinion based material on HP systems of either variety. I don't mind the abstract systems of HP (yeah... I know it sorta' bothers you...) but I also like realistic systems. My only problems come up when something doesn't work right, and so far, realistic conversions in DnD haven't really worked... at least as far as I know. I'm all for realism, but the mechanics have to be completly intergrated into the *entire* system, and the more flaws there are in the system, the harder it becomes to stray away from the tried and true HP system. As I have said, I don't really have an opinion on the matter... I would like to use a more realistic system... if it existed, but I don't care enough to do anything about it... I am more than willing to help you, though, and if your work comes closer to fruitation, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. I'm very sorry, but I don't understand your spell system. If there is a formula for the chart... post that. That would probably be easier than getting a chart to work, and if we can see the formula, we can understand better what is going on, and so we can make a better judgement on what to do to fix it. Something that I see from reading the text though... sorcerers die out. A simple solution to this problem would be (dun-dada-DUN!!!) To give them the "good" progression for fortitude saves. Not just for spellcasing, *really* give them the good progression. I'd suggest that however you convert HP... you give them the same progression you give to d6ers. *OR* you could forget the...hp... boost and give them a bonus to fortitude for spells in addition to the base save increase. That would go a long way toward making the sorcerer a disirable class without having to give them a whole new progression. A charisma bonus to all saves would be really *sweet*, and it would really make the sorcerer awsome. Or.. just to fort saves, but only if you really think that all saves would be unbalanced. I *don't* think it would be, saves just arn't to terribly big a deal. Paladines get the same feature, although it does't affect them as much... still... though it is on the powerful side, it gives the sorcerer something he needs to remain viable, and just so happens to give him the role he once had as a spellcasting madman when it comes to producing in volume. About encumberance... maybe you would consider changing the way it works, as well as the way armor works, rather than appending something to the system. Maybe instead of a dex cap or a penalty to skills, you could tweak it to fatigue. That way, you can get a better feel for why all the penalties are there. Swimming in full plate? Yeah... but assuming you can do it in the first place, it is going to start hindering you really fast. Or maybe adding to the system wouldn't be such a bad idea... have it so that skills that are hindered by armor increase the DC to resist fatigue, or something like that.
shiffd 07-13-05, 09:24 AM	*IF* you are sure that you *really* want to have a non-point based system for recieving damage, then all I can say is that you either leave it abstract and simple, or go all out and make it as realistic as possible. I can tell you, based on a pool of experience that isn't merely my own, that if the HP system falls between the two, you will never be satisfied. I am not a great source for opinion based material on HP systems of either variety. I don't mind the abstract systems of HP (yeah... I know it sorta' bothers you...) but I also like realistic systems. My only problems come up when something doesn't work right, and so far, realistic conversions in DnD haven't really worked... at least as far as I know. I'm all for realism, but the mechanics have to be completly intergrated into the *entire* system, and the more flaws there are in the system, the harder it becomes to stray away from the tried and true HP system. As I have said, I don't really have an opinion on the matter... I would like to use a more realistic system... if it existed, but I don't care enough to do anything about it... I am more than willing to help you, though, and if your work comes closer to fruitation, I'll be happy to help in any way I can. I'm very sorry, but I don't understand your spell system. If there is a formula for the chart... post that. That would probably be easier than getting a chart to work, and if we can see the formula, we can understand better what is going on, and so we can make a better judgement on what to do to fix it. Something that I see from reading the text though... sorcerers die out. A simple solution to this problem would be (dun-dada-DUN!!!) To give them the "good" progression for fortitude saves. Not just for spellcasing, *really* give them the good progression. I'd suggest that however you convert HP... you give them the same progression you give to d6ers. *OR* you could forget the...hp... boost and give them a bonus to fortitude for spells in addition to the base save increase. That would go a long way toward making the sorcerer a disirable class without having to give them a whole new progression. A charisma bonus to all saves would be really *sweet*, and it would really make the sorcerer awsome. Or.. just to fort saves, but only if you really think that all saves would be unbalanced. I *don't* think it would be, saves just arn't to terribly big a deal. Paladines get the same feature, although it does't affect them as much... still... though it is on the powerful side, it gives the sorcerer something he needs to remain viable, and just so happens to give him the role he once had as a spellcasting madman when it comes to producing in volume. About encumberance... maybe you would consider changing the way it works, as well as the way armor works, rather than appending something to the system. Maybe instead of a dex cap or a penalty to skills, you could tweak it to fatigue. That way, you can get a better feel for why all the penalties are there. Swimming in full plate? Yeah... but assuming you can do it in the first place, it is going to start hindering you really fast. Or maybe adding to the system wouldn't be such a bad idea... have it so that skills that are hindered by armor increase the DC to resist fatigue, or something like that. Its based on an old channeling system basically in addition to a spellpoint number you were fatigued when a spell was cast. I just thought that why have both? Plus spell points are a calculated consideration. Anyway the table is just set by level. No real formula, I can't find a way to break it down into a formula. There are 9 spell levels, so that is the real issue. Actually this makes every caster like a Sorcerer. They just cast what they know. Basically a CHA based caster would be sorcerer an int based caster would be a mage/wizard and a Wis based caster would be a divine caster. Fort save is only for the recovery process. High cha/int will adjust their caster level when casting spells, a peice I haven't posted yet. basically I need another simple chart, but don't think it'll post so well. Anyway when you cast a spell it costs its level if you cast it as a caster of the level that has initial access to that level plus your Cha/WIs/Int mod depending on which type of caster you are. That is the potency you get outa the spell for base cost. If you want to increase its power you can cast it at the cost of the next spell level as a caster of that level's strength +prime casting ability modifier. OK heres a shot at the table- 0-----1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8-----9-----10 1-----1-----3-----5-----7-----9-----11----13----15---17----19 OK so basically:: caster level/2 rounded up = max spell level of access (for learning & memorizing. Char may have memorized/know 2*caster level+prime casting stat spells. For INt casters they may switch out at 1 a day (after resting) to replace a memorized spell with one from their spellbook. It doesn't matter what level the spells are. So a 4th level wizard can memorize 8 spells. Lets say they find a new spell and add it to their spell book. They can memorize it that night, but will forget one of the other 8 spells. On the other hand if they only have 5 spells in their spellbook, they'll be limited to those 5 spells untill they buy/find another spell somwhere. If the wizard had an 18 Int (+4) they'd actually have 12 spells memorized at 4th level. Note that they will only have access to 2nd level spells (they are only capable of memorizing spells of that level), but cast them as an 8th level caster. Wisdom casters can switch at spells at 1 a night. They must select from spells/powers that their diety would grant them (IE their available spheres) CHA casters have the most freedom, they may switch powers out at 1 a night, basically from any powers/spells avail (which for most Sorc. is any spell out there pretty much). To temper this it is better to have them stuck with each power which they learn and give them (3*level+Cha modifier) with no ability to change their mind or spell list after its been selcted (besides leveling and selecting the 3 new spells) etc. Also Cha based casters could be bound to spellbooks like Int casters. Then they could switch spells out at 1 a night from whats avail in their spellbook. Anyway once the spell is cast nobody forgets it, they take fatigue. As soon as they have enough energy left to cast a spell again they can, the same spelll or one of the others spells they know/have memorized. For Sorcerers----- Note if a sorcerer has, let's say a 22 cha. That would be +6 caster level for spell effects. IE a 4th level spell would be cast with effects calculated as a 13th level. A Bard wtih cha 16 casting same spell would only get t he effects of level 10 caster. So Sorcers can increase their over all arsenal by casting lower level spells that will pack a stronger punch.
shiffd 07-14-05, 05:14 AM	OK, here goes. simplify fatigue table. Break down into 6 steps. 1 is light fatigue. 6 is mortal. 2&3 are moderate. So the spell level that causes heavy fatigue for the char is =(caster level/2 rounded down). The spread works exactly around the midrange on 1 step at a time basis. LIke if the caster is 10th level. And if 12th the 4th line 0------1-------2----3-------4-------5------6------7 none-light----moderate----heavy---severe-mortal-fail&mortal 1------2-------3----4-------5-------6------7-----8 2------3-------4----5-------6-------7------8-----9 Note that a 10th level aster would have access only to 5th level spells. IN order to cast the other spells and be fatigued he'd need to cast them from an uncharged scroll or spellbook which takes double the normal casting time and consumes the record. Charged scrolls cost no fatigue to the users (and are a lot more valuable for that reason). if the caster is already fatigued they add the fatigue caused by new spell to current fatigue (current mod is always 2) to determine the new fatigue cat after the casting. So if 10th level caster casts 5th level spell but they are already moderately fatigued that's 4 (from 5th level spell) + 2 (current mod fatiuge) the total is 6, so the character would now be severely fatigued. When a spell of extremely high level is attempted then it autofails if beyond the mortal range, if it is right at the range then it is successful. In either case the caster makes a fort save DC 15 plus +spell level or they die from the casting. If they make the save they are simply knocked unconscious
shiffd 07-18-05, 12:30 PM	I will be play testing the fatigue rules form the 1st post. Everything else will be standard 3.5 with the fatigue optional rule used only when necessary. Anyway the game is Save the Wyrms at Plothook.net if anyone would like to join as a player and help me test the system. SO far all of the casters are using hte regular spells system but I've left using the fatigue casting system as an option to interested parties.
Paul Hopebringer 07-19-05, 02:50 PM	Arg.... sorcerers changing out spells every day... I don't like it. :( And wizards *still* have the silly "forget spells" thing... It would be fine, if I liked the flavor. I think it works well, but I don't like the way it changes things as far as spell preparation goes... Tell you what, I'll show you what *I* would do, and we'll see which one we like better... hmm... Use spells per day for what spells can be cast for the day... Unearthed Arcana has a spell point system that you could look at... just replace the points with the fatigue system instead...that saves me the trouble of explaining how and why it works. As I have said before, sorcerers get shot in the foot... but I'm fixing that too... Combat- Every 10 rounds (1 min) the character makes a Fort save DC 15+consec turn* to see if their fatigue level increases by one. * If this check is failed by ten or more, the character must make a will save versus the same modifier. For every point above ten this check is failed, one additional level of fatigue is added.* Spells are physically draining on those who cast them. The level of spell cast determines exactly how demanding the spell is on the casters body and mind. Each spell cast potentailly fatigues the caster. A save agains fatigue is made by rolling d20 and adding one fourth the caster level, the casters fortitude score and his spellcasting attribute. The check is made against DC 20 + 3*(spell level-4) +(all fatigue modifiers) umm...lets see... A roughly bare minimum 20th level mage with +5 in spellcasting atribute and a fort of 6. For each save, he would roll d20+ 5 (CL) + fort.6 + 5... about 26 each roll. 1st level spells... 11... only failable under with a one.. assuming ones always fail 9th level spells... 35... possible, but difficult. Sorcerers fixes D6 Good Fort progression Cha bonus to all *will* saves Give them a feat every five levels starting with five... may only select metamagic feats. add all Cha based skills to skill list add use magic divise to the skill list I'm in favor of Cha to all saves, so I'll use that as my example character. He will be a roughly bare minimum 20th level sorcerer with +5 in charisma and a fort of 12. For each save, he would roll d20+ 5 (CL) + fort.12 + 5... about 32 each roll. 1st level spells... 11... only failable under with a one.. assuming ones always fail. 9th level spells... 35... easily possible. I do think that a sorcerer should be *able* to swap out spells. He must succeed two will checks against DC 20 + 2*(spell levels changed-1). (i.e. DC 36 to swap a 9th level spell, or DC 22 to swap out 2 second level spell) :D There should be a that allows you to take ten versus spell fatigue :D All right, I'm done for now.
shiffd 07-20-05, 10:38 AM	Paul thanks for the dialogue and ideas, sorry I have to reject them- You misunderstood completely. Wizards DO NOT forget spells. They have total number of spells that they can have memorized at a time. When they cast it, they DO NOT forget it. As an OPTION, they can change the roster of spells they have memorized. So lets say you are 1st level and can memorize two spells. For simplicity I'll go generic- Magic Missle and Sleep. So you cast Magic missle. You get fatigued. A couple minutes later you want to cast it, so you do, then cast sleep, then sleep again then magic missle. At NO POINT would you forget the spells, you would just get fatigued or not, if you were too fatigued you'd fail to cast the next spell till you rested a little, or you might pass out, also being fatigued would make you very vulnerable in combat. IF you found a new spell, lets say a scroll of summon monster, you could memorize it and then you'd forget one of the others at your choice. Basically like spells known but with more flexibility. Alternatively you could just put the new spell in your spellbook and not change your spells at all-in which case no forgetting or memorizing of new spells, at the next level the amount of spells you can memorize would go up and then you'd be able to memorize those new spells you'd found. As you level the number of spells you can call upon advances, so lets say that you've been doing sleep & magic missle all of first level. At second level you'd basically have those down, then you'd also be able to memorize two more spells. You would (EXACTLY LIKE A SORCERER) be able to cast any of those spells you want at any time as many times as you want and you'd never forget any of them (UNLESS YOU CHOSE TO). Its like a sorcerers spells known except that you could swap out spells (AT YOUR OWN DISCRETION) with spells from your spellbook. WHat would limit casting would be how fatigued you are. The higher the level of the caster the less they are fatigued by spells they cast. On a day-to-day basis there would be no maintanence of spelllists for MAGE, CLERIC OR SORCERER. Characters would have a choice to occasional change which spells they know/have memorized with a limit of 1 a day only- just to keep things balanced and not to give them to much power/flexibility. I hope that clarifies it for you. As far as your sorcerer changes. Basically you've catered the whole system to make superpowerful Sorcerers that can metagame their way to winning a duel against God. At some point we need to be realistic in the amount of power given to characters, balance is important and necessary. If you make those change to the sorcerer class you'd need to either A: beef the hell outa every other class or C: give the sorcerer and ECL of like 5. My alternative to the unrealistic nature of forgetting spells as you cast them is automatic fatigue from spells, thus putting a check on how many spells of a given strength you can cast in a period of time. The random save process is too highly complicated. This times that divided by that modified by this etc. Its a lot simpler to say, you are X level so spells of X level cause X amount of fatigue. (caster level vs spell level= fatigue) VS (fort save of + Cha score + fort save bonus + caster level/4 (DC 20 + 3*(spell level-4) + modifiers) ) Ok the system I proposed involved 2 numbers- caster level and spell level The system you propose involves like 8 numbers. Fort save (from class), DC 20, 3Xspell level -4, Cha bonus, Fort save bonus, any other bonuses to fort saves from feats etc., caster level/4 and who knows what else. You also need to divide once, multiply once and add and subtract about 8 times in the system you propose. I propose a system where you make a chart when you level. Whenver you case you use that chart to determine how much fatigue was caused. The chart would be real simple, exactly like the spells perday chart almost, accept instead of listing how much spells of each level you can cast of each level it just lists how much fatigue each spell level causes. I think most players would prefer just to look at a number on their char sheet as apposed to dividing, multiplying and adding/subtracting a half-dozen numbers then making several rolls to figure out what the hell happened when they cast the spell (did it kiill me, can I cast it again? did it fail? etc.) Also it is obvious how much fatigue is caused in the system I'd proposed. How much fatigue is caused by that save you proposed again? Or do you have to make a couple more rolls to figure it out? The spells memorized/known is just a matter of balance. Think of it like a singer, there are only so many songs they can memorize by heart. As they get older and more experienced they can sing more and more songs, in the beginning they only know a couple. IF they practice a new song a lot, they might forget some words or a melody from an older song. LIke magic tricks etc. You gotta practice to keep sharp, experience gives you the ability to pull of more tricks well without constant practice. So you could very realistically forget an old spell while in the midst of learning a new one, you would never however forget a spell after you'd just cast it, it would take a day to forget, and conveniently a day to remember the new spell you were replacing the old one with. Characters are unlikely to want to forget a spell they use often in favor of a new one, most likely they'll pick a spell they haven't used in awhile and don't need anymore. Figure a 8th level wizard knows some 16 spells by heart (all of which can be cast spontaneously) But they have a few of those they likely rarely use anymore, so they find a new spell and want to memorize it, in exchange they choose that their character forgets one of the old unnused spells. Very realistic for game play. If a PC wants to switch out their memorized spells on a daily basis that would be unrealistc and the DM could just say no. ALso the 1 a day rule is a big help, agian its one a day if you WANT to, most of the time you just keep the same exact spell list that you chose when you leveled, like a sorcerer normally does in current 3.5. The only change I propose for sorcerers really is that they aren't limited to a given number of spells of a given level. Does it really make sense that a sorcer would be incapable of casting anymore 1st level spells but can still cast 3rd level spells? No it doesn't, and that is a problem my fatigue system will fix. Also it will give Wizards and Druids/Priests etc the same flexibility in spontaneous casting that sorcerers and bards enjoy. A simple 2Xlevel memorizable/known etc. spells replaces the tedious 5 cantrip 3 1st 2 2nd etc. nonsense. Char can choose any spell of any level up to their max number. And it eliminates the table etc. Just much easier to track- "I know 15 spells" etc The player writes them down and knows that their character can cast any of those given spells whenever they want. I don't do a very good job of explaining my ideas sometimes, which makes it hard to get across how simple it is and how it really works, one problem is I haven't figured out how to get tables in here. Also its not like I'm paid to write all this stuff up, its what I do on my freetime so always real ruff and unedited.
Golem1972 07-20-05, 02:24 PM	This is actually a pretty good idea. :thumbsup: It seems to be pretty well thought out too. I've been working on a similar system for a seperate game system. Basically it's similar to your fatigue system except that I've used 10 fatigue categories instead of 5, and each category is 1/10th of your fatigue point (hit point) total. So instead of an action causing a specific level of damage (light, moderate, severe, etc.) it causes a specific amount of damage (straight or dice damage). When your fatigue point damage bumps you into the next category, you take the penalties for that category. This allows for the differences between a high constitution character and a low con one (i.e. it takes longer for a high con character to get tired in the first place). Rest recovers one fatigue category at a time (ie 6 hours removes mortal, +4 hours removes severe, so going from mortal to moderate requires 10 hours of rest) instead of recovering fatigue points so high con characters aren't punished for having more fatigue points. I'm using a matching system of wound categories for hit points. Penalties for fatigue and wounds will be cumalitive. Hopefully, someone will end up publishing a system like this with all of the bugs worked out. :)
Paul Hopebringer 07-20-05, 08:34 PM	...oh, okay.... so wizards are good now, all right! "Basically you've catered the whole system to make superpowerful Sorcerers that can metagame their way to winning a duel against God." :eek: I rewrote that thing so many times... And it got really complex, too... I think that some major artifacts of power got left behind by mistake, but I can fix it! The new, simple, easy, realistically impowered spell system: Fatigue DC per spell used: Every time a character casts a spell, he must make an additional fatigue check, due to the physically exhaustive prossess of the casting itself. DC: 20+mod + 2(spell level)-1 Checks: 0: Cantrips are rediculously easy to cast. The caster need not make a fatigue check. 1: First level spells are easy to cast. Four times the mages caster level is added to the check. 2: Twice the mages caster level is added 3: The mages caster level is added to all checks. 4-6: Half the casters CL (caster level) is added to all checks. 7-9: The casters CL is no longer used to cast spells Casting types: Prepared spellcasters: Spells per day's meaning changes to mean number of different spells castable per day, rather than... spell slots...due to the fact that they have a spell book and all that... Potentially universal versatility in spell selection. Fatigue check: d20+fort save+ability Spontanious spellcasters: Get jipped in spells known... Such is the fate of spontanious spellcasters... Fatigue check: d20+fort save+ability To fix this... D6... they don't study all day, so they can get their excersize in... so there you go. Good Fort progression... body... innate spellcasting... fatigue based casting... oh *forget* it! Never mind, I don't care enough anymore. :rolleyes: Cha bonus to all *will* saves...yeah, I left the "favoring *all* saves thing in by mistake... I reallized that will saves are awsome for this effect all by themselves, and get something for sorcerers that is just plain cool. Give them a feat every five levels starting with five... may only select metamagic feats... come on... wizards get them... :weep: add all Cha based skills to skill list... please, sorcerers needing a high charisma so that they can.... bluff really well? :rolleyes: If they are confident, they should be... confidently confident. It's not like they get extra skill points... like the wizard does... if you think about it a little bit. Why make all sorcerers liars anyway? Add use magic divise to the skill list. You can make this even better by saying that they can't use magic wands and stuff unless they already know the spell that it has inside it. Less "learned", more intuitive... sounds like the difference between sorcerer and wizard to me... go with it! My math breakdown: DC: 20+mod + 2(spell level)-1 2(spell level)-1 does this: 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 .... so then the DC's would be: 21 23 25 27 29 31 33 35 37 + whatever modifier. Combat- Every 10 rounds (1 min) the character makes a Fort save DC 15+consec turn* to see if their fatigue level increases by one. * If this check is failed by ten or more, the character must make a will save versus the same modifier. For every point above ten this check is failed, one additional level of fatigue is added.* That means that... well... if a wizard roles a 3 when he needed to role a 20...he would have to succed the DC with a will save or he would gain 7 levels of fatigue... ... The "Cha. to will" thing would give the sorcerer an interesting twist, allowing him to "overcast" himself a little bit better. It also gives him a cool flavor... being able to believe in himself enough to shrug off a bunch of effects that would get a normal man down. (...ranger bard and paladine should be prestige classes... so I'll just ignore the problems that come up with the core classes, because they don't exist...) So, how about that :D ? Does it please you? Wait a second...2Xlevel memorizable/known? tThat is a...wonderful balancing tool...but it...and...wha?
shiffd 07-22-05, 05:55 PM	I made a word write up rethinking some things, and I must give you credit for keeping me thinking on it. Okay, so here is what I figure- Wizzies got to pay for spells in their book, or find them. A sorcerer could potentially sell anything they find and wouldn't be buying spells. So there is the trade off. Both have an equal number of spells known/memorized. Basically a Repertoire of spells to spontaneously cast from. That would be Caster levelX2+bonus (the bonus being Wis, Int or Cha). For the sorcerer they would be getting their spells or 'powers' for free ( no GP cost). So they can choose them from any list, giving them the widest list of possible spells to cast. However when they pick a spell, they are stuck with it. They'll know it forever and if they figure out later they want a different spell they'll have to wait a level to pick 2 new ones. The Mage on the other hand (Int caster) is limited to what they find/can buy. That's IF there is a magic store near by. There is a constant monitary burden for spellcasting, but they could have a lot of spells in their spellbook. They could at a 1 a nite basis change which spells they have in their repertoire of spells. IN the case of Wizard or Sorcerer they can cast from a record (scroll or spellbook) but doing so would take double casting time and the magic called on would consume the record (like set the page on fire, dry it, wither it etc.) Basically magic comes through a conduit, if it isn't the casters mind completely then it will consume the record they are using as well (kinda a mental projection of their mind, thus paper is unable to handle waste energy of the spells casting the same way the body learns to. They would still also recieve the normal fatigue unless the scroll was "charged". In the case of DIvine casters they could choose any spell that is available through their pantheon. They could switch out available powers/spells on a nightly basis 1 at a time basis. They would have less overall to choose from in spells and powers. I thank you again for all your ideas and am glad I've given you some. IF you have more keep them coming. I'm going to stick with a static Xfatigue per Xspell level. Also a set power of spells of a certain level (caster level determined in spell effect). IE it gets really easy at higher levels to cast Magic Missle, but its with the strength of a 3rd level caster. IF they want to cast like 10 missles, then they'd need to cast it with higher caster level strength, which would make the spell effectively as fatiguing as a higher level spell. That way it keeps the power balanced. Regardless of the spells initial level the fatigue it causes is relative to its strength (IE caster level used to determine spell effects). Modifiying the spell strength caster level by the characters bonus (INt/Wis or cha) from their casting stat is how we give the casters a bonus for having a higher stat their. So they will know more spells and cast more powerful spells for the same amount of fatigue as compared to other chars of same class with lower casting stat. (casting stat is Wis-Priest/druid, Cha-sorcerer, Int-wis etc.). This is where we give the casters an incentive to pump their casting stat. I think your system provides more details but also requires more calculations and rolls. For my tastes I wanted to create something simpler or of equal complexity to the current casting system but with more flexibility and more plausibility. In comparing my system with teh current casting system I think I've done that- standard 3.5 there are two tables for Sorcerers - spells known and spells per day. I've replaced that with 1 table, --faigue cost by spells. SPells known has been reduced to a simple formula. The strength of spells is relative to a simple table. So its about the same diff as the old casting system but caracters will have the spontaneous ability to cast any spell in ther Repertoire. Also they may know whatever spells they want of whatever level. Since they will pay for all relative to its power, it doesn't matter the spells initial level, allthough spells always cost atleast the their original spell level, so someone cant cast a 5th level spell with the strength of a level 1 caster and only get level on fatigue, 5th level spells would always cause level 5 fatigue, or higher if they pump more energy in to the spell. With adding cha skills to the sorcerer- Its not part of their concept. Feats- I didn't know wizards got extra feats that Sorcerers didn't. I need to look at the books again. If wizards get them, so should sorcerers. Use magic items.... IF wizzies and rogues etc. can use them so should sorcerers be able to. I didn't know they couldn't. ithough they coudl and I agree they should be able to. IF they want better will saves I think they should have a higher con. d6... If sorcers got d6 so should wizzies. WIth all casters needing better fort saves then they would all probly have double incentive to pump con- HP and Fort saves for recovering fatigue. So maybe they wouldn't need d6. Also if a caster is fatigue by a spell within 10 rounds of combat they do not need to make the fatigue check that turn. IE if a wiz and warrior are ina a battle together. Wiz casts a fireball 2nd round goes to mod fatigue. On the 10 round the warrior would be making his fatigue check for light fatigue, the wizzies would skip that check cuz they were fatigued by a spell that turn. Next turn wiz casts no spells but battles, in this case on the 20th round (end of 2nd turn) both wiz and War would be making a fatigue check to see if they increase a category. I think its better to leave teh combat save as a 1 level at a time fail or success save. It wouldn't be realistically that someone was fighting full strength for 1 minute, then at the end of that minute they pass out from mortal fatigue. It is meant that peoples fatigue slowely progresses over time, almost indetectable how it progresses. maybe a true botch (roll a 1) the character goes up 2 cat's, but the most I would say is 2 at a time. Also when they hit mortal fatigue maybe give d6 rounds before they actually pass out. This way all of the char's don't just pass out at the same exact time on the same exact round, alhtough they would make the check at the same time the pass-out effect can be delayed for realistic effect purposes. Thanks again, if you got any more ideas keep them coming.
shiffd 07-22-05, 11:40 PM	Hopefully, someone will end up publishing a system like this with all of the bugs worked out. :) I here you there. And thanks for the review, I'm interesteding seeing your system, have you considered posting it? Let me know if you do. I'm thinking there is some ideas we could share both ways. Did you see my non-point wound system? Well I kinda let it fizzle (I stopped posting updates). I'm playtesting the fatigue and fatigue casting peice now in a new campaign. If it goes well I'll use it in playtesting a non-point damage system in my next campaign. Well points are used but only for the giver, the taker takes wounds of varying severity and deals with conditions of varying severity. Bleeding, damaged tissues, damage bones/joints and Organ damage. So instead of saying "I got 10 HP" I like the idea of characters either being healthy or having an injury of somekind. IF you have time tell me what you think!
Golem1972 07-23-05, 01:38 AM	I'd love to post the whole system, but it's gone from "just tweaking the game a little" to "wow, it might be easier to wait for 4.0 to come out." It's kind of massive, and still has a lot of bugs (as well as a few (not bugs, maybe design flaws or just things that don't mesh well)). Design overview: I've been trying to blend the better parts of several rpg's I've played (maybe not better, maybe just the parts I liked) and fill in with a few ideas of my own (not sure how many of my ideas are original, after you've seen a couple of decades worth of rpg rulesets, a lot of ideas get repeated). Sources include but are not limited to: Alternity, DnD, Rifts, Shadowrun, CRPGs. Basics: Hit dice have been removed. Hit points are calculated from constitution / feats. The characters constitution score is the number of hit points / wound level. Heal checks and status spells detect wound level, not hit point totals. Cure spells and rest heal wound levels, not hit points. Higher level characters will not necessarily have more hit points, they'll just be harder to hit and/or damage. No hit dice means that level adjustments will slow down feat/skill/ability progression, not make the characters more fragile by losing hit points (ie a 6th level character - Half dragon (+3), Half Ogre (+2), Barbarian 1 won't have 1/6th of the hit points of a 6th level human barbarian) Fatigue points act in a very similar manner to hit points. Taking enough of either type of damage will progress the character down the appropriate wound level table. Penalties from both wound level tables will stack. Skill points. Character skill points will be generated at each level from each attribute. These skill points may only be spent on the appropriate skills (ie skill points from a high strength score may only be spent on strength based skills). Class skill points may be spent on any class skills. Fatigue damage will be taken for various actions (each round of combat, running, swimming, other strenuous activities, spellcasting, feat use, etc.). And so much more it makes me tired just thinking about typing it all out. I guess I'm pretty much using a system somewhere in between straight hps and straight wound levels.
Paul Hopebringer 07-25-05, 04:52 PM	I like the system of being able to choose spells of any level, and it being balanced out by how fatigued it makes you. I think that is a great idea. Charisma skills *arn't* part of the concept? Well... here I was thinking that they were discribed as self-confident. I guess being pigeonholed into deception is the only thing they really *should* get from being so self confident that the very forces of magic bend to it (dripping with sarcasim) Sorcerers can use magic items, I think they should get the "use magic devise" skill so that they can activate items that they wouldn't normally be able to. "IF they want better will saves I think they should have a higher con?" ...but the toughness of your body has nothing to do with the toughness of your mind... Did you mean Charisma? But why would a wizard who spends his days sitting down and reading get the same amount of hitpoints as a sorcerer... who is free to do whatever because he gets his spell innatly... A wizard would never enter melee with a fighter of his own free will without some serious spell enhancments placed on himself... and a ton of magical equipment... and he would need to be a little tipsy from that brandy he had earlier... yeah, if you are thinking that a wizard would only cast one spell a minute... you are mistaken, sir. Maybe that was just an example... but you did mention a wizard "battling" a warrior... :rofl: You don't think that fighing in full plate as hard as you can for a solid minute when your heart is gripped by pure terror would be enough to get you fatigued? Have you sprinted, before? It takes a little over a "round" to do the 100 meter dash. Like... eight seconds or so... if you are an olympic athelete... Olypians are *tired* at the end of the 100 meter dash. They would have the same adrenaline as fighting for your life would give you... but that doesn't change the fact that... after about *one* round, they are dead tired at the end of it. I said that they get a will save versus fatigue. That makes it more heroic. It doesn't even happen all to often... failing by more than ten... and then you get an additional save? But it is definatly reallistic for somebody fighting really hard to nearly kill themselves with fatigue in a minute, if they aren't carefull to conserve themselves. Especially in heavy armor. The d6 added at the end to randomize the fatigue is a stroke of genius. Good idea! :D Oh... and word doc? GIMME!!! :D
shiffd 07-27-05, 05:04 AM	I like the system of being able to choose spells of any level, and it being balanced out by how fatigued it makes you. I think that is a great idea. Charisma skills *arn't* part of the concept? Well... here I was thinking that they were discribed as self-confident. I guess being pigeonholed into deception is the only thing they really *should* get from being so self confident that the very forces of magic bend to it (dripping with sarcasim) Sorcerers can use magic items, I think they should get the "use magic devise" skill so that they can activate items that they wouldn't normally be able to. "IF they want better will saves I think they should have a higher con?" ...but the toughness of your body has nothing to do with the toughness of your mind... Did you mean Charisma? But why would a wizard who spends his days sitting down and reading get the same amount of hitpoints as a sorcerer... who is free to do whatever because he gets his spell innatly... A wizard would never enter melee with a fighter of his own free will without some serious spell enhancments placed on himself... and a ton of magical equipment... and he would need to be a little tipsy from that brandy he had earlier... yeah, if you are thinking that a wizard would only cast one spell a minute... you are mistaken, sir. Maybe that was just an example... but you did mention a wizard "battling" a warrior... :rofl: You don't think that fighing in full plate as hard as you can for a solid minute when your heart is gripped by pure terror would be enough to get you fatigued? Have you sprinted, before? It takes a little over a "round" to do the 100 meter dash. Like... eight seconds or so... if you are an olympic athelete... Olypians are *tired* at the end of the 100 meter dash. They would have the same adrenaline as fighting for your life would give you... but that doesn't change the fact that... after about *one* round, they are dead tired at the end of it. I said that they get a will save versus fatigue. That makes it more heroic. It doesn't even happen all to often... failing by more than ten... and then you get an additional save? But it is definatly reallistic for somebody fighting really hard to nearly kill themselves with fatigue in a minute, if they aren't carefull to conserve themselves. Especially in heavy armor. The d6 added at the end to randomize the fatigue is a stroke of genius. Good idea! :D Oh... and word doc? GIMME!!! :D Did I say con. I suppose I meant wis, well it depends on the perspective. Anyway Charisma has to do with, well Charisma which is completely unrelated to willpower. In skills and powers willpower was its own stat, but that's another story. I don't know I guess it don't really matter. I watch a lot of professional fighting. The rounds are usually 1-3 minutes. They don't wear platemail though. In Kendo they might as well wear platemail, but again, they can fight for a few minutes, allthough not much more. 6 seconds isn't enough to do more than start to fatigue. Unless you are REALLY outa shape. Sprinters in the olympics, well it depends on what they run. if its a short race, they train for it, if its a little longer- same. Marathon runners who train for stamina would have a hard time running short distance very fast, and they wouldn't get very tired, if tired at all in 50M. Just a matter of how your train your body. I guess with fantasy characters I was shooting for a fighters training/body. With bookworms getting the benefit of the doubt I guess. So I worked it out that a good fighter (look at middle weights) might last 10-15 minutes without suffering to much fatigue, but after that point they start walking around like a zombie, but less stamina fighters (look at Bob Sapp in K1 when he started) will start fumbling and stumbling after about 3 minutes. But maybe I should progress the fatigue more rapidly. Maybe every 5 rounds instead (every 30 seconds). ..... Got me thinking. Word doc? I can send it via email, cuz I don't know if we can post attach's here. I'd need your email and stuff. mines Shiffd@hotmail.com.
Paul Hopebringer 07-27-05, 08:23 AM	You could make a feat that improves your save versus fatigue. Make it a fighters bonus feat, and there you go. I think that wisdom is definatly the best stat for willpower, but I do think that it would be possible, (under the same context of the sorcerers spellcasting) that charisma *could* also be used for will saves. Maybe instead of adding both wisdom and charisma to will, like I would do, you could take the highest, which would probably be charisma. I think being self-confident would help out your willpower... and it just seems right to me for the sorcerer. As for changing how often you make the save... That gives me an idea. Maybe you could give bonuses and penalties based on "how hard you fight". Like (pulling this out of thin air) +4 if you take it ever 5 rounds, normal if you take it every ten, and -4 if you take it every 15. That might be to much trouble... another thing that would get the same effect (flavor wise) would be to give bonuses and penalties based on how hard you fight. Maybe lower the DC by two for every -1 you take from your attack. Maybe it would take a feat for it to go the other way, raising the DC to increase your attack. Or, maybe the feat would change the DC/attack ratio around. Make the penalties bigger, and the bonuses smaller, until you take the feat. Something like +4 DC/+1BaB and -1DC/-1BaB, unless you take the feat.
shiffd 07-28-05, 08:08 AM	I'm thinking to fudge on the behalf of heroics and leave it the way it is. DC 15 is pretty hard. If they botch 2 levels of fatigue advanced. perhaps some of the less battle prone classes would normally tire faster, but in a low-tech setting life is a lot harder. No TV's (COMPUTERS!) to fatten/lazy people up the way we think of the human race now. Sure they had old tombs and such, but a lot heavier if you think about it, plus still got to eat, get dressed, bathe etc. Maybe if they come from a really wealthy background then you could penalize them in some way, but I think for the average class its safe to say they are in much better shape then us 'modern' men. I can fight for 3 minutes or so pretty well and I don't train that often. Granted after about 3 minutes I'm about as useful as a sack of potatos. I also don't spend weeks at a time traveling cross country. Mostly I excersize for a few hours at a time a few times a week, at best. I'd guess a low-tech bookworm even would be in better shape than me just given their daily chores. Throw in an adventuring (traveling etc.) lifestyle and you've got decently inshape peeps. And stuff. I'll try and get that word doc to you soon, should do now, but got some chores to do, speaking of how may computer makes me outa shape....
Paul Hopebringer 08-02-05, 09:42 AM	Ah, our styles of thinking differ! I am of the opinion that "as hard as you can" means it never gets easier to do your *best*. By the time you get to the point where youre previous best is easy, your new best will still make you tired. I'm not thinking about how *our* best would make a hero character laugh at us for trying, I'm thinking about them pushing their body to the limits, which will get them just as tired as if we do the same thing... maxing out... I would say that a normal fight would last about 3 minutes... or rather, a normal fighter would last about three minutes... if he fought at a reasonably fast pace (i.e. not maxed out, but pushing pretty hard). A frezied berserker frothing at the mouth and bent on destruction, on the other hand, probably wouldn't last as long... because he *would* be pushing the limits of physical endurance. By the time the adrenalin is gone, he is pooped. Speaking of which, I think that the rules for fatigue that go allong with barbarians should change. *I'm* thinking a large-scale overhaul of the barbarians fatigue would be best... I'll try to explain in detail latter... but I'd like to see what you would do first... first is preferable, anyway... Oh, and did I miss the encumberance system, or is it really not in there? I still can't decide if it would be better to leave armor and encumberance separated or not... anyway, I'd like to see that as well.
shiffd 08-03-05, 09:22 AM	Hey Paul, sorry I hadn't got that word doc to you yet. Actually I'm running a game now testing the Fatigue system, its taking up all my RP time. That and the other 3 PBP's I'm in. I've found another 2 to join, oh but don't have the time. Anyway, I'd modified and split up my HouseRules doc for the new game, so it didn't have the full, just the magic part. So I gotta put it all backtogether again, long story. Well next week I think I'll have some time. It's summer so I've been partying and working alot to besides. Anyway if you come up with some ideas for varying fatigue by class I'm all for it. Come to think of it it might be a good idea, allthough I'd want to make sure its a simple variation, not to complicated. Also I think for Rage there'd need to be another way, and for encumberance and armor I think there's a point you got there about including it. Well post your ideas as you have them, I'll be reading and thinking and I'll let you know if I think of anything. So far fatigue magic is working OK. Well I'm thinking I need to add some options at the Mortal stage, maybe rename it. Or leave it the way it is, cuz maybe its just something PC's will need a few combats to understand/get used to. Sorcerer (the standard 3.5 one) is usually a little difficult to grasp at first and most P's need to play a sorcerer through a few in-combat castings before they fully understand the sorcerer. Actually I guess any class is kinda like that really, munk, barbarian, bard etc. and stuff. Oh yea, I called it 'fatigue caster' or 'channeler' and stuff. SO there are fatigue casters playing right along side normal arcane and divine casters its interesting to see. The Fatigue caster has more powerful magic, but they pass out and REALLY need to be protected by the fighters. I like how its playing, having got the players feel on it yet. i'll let you know.
Paul Hopebringer 08-04-05, 08:51 PM	I think that maybe the armor should increase your fatigue DC by a certain amount, based on how proficient you are. Casting penalties can be negated, since casting is now fatigue based. I would say whatever the penalty is, it should be doubled if you arn't proficient. That way, it affects everybody, affects the casters more, but doesn't overly penalize them by having the casting penalty in addition. Psionics would get this same penalty, if you like psionics... as well as divine casting... a slight change, but clerics are proficent in armor... and stuff. Encumberance should add a similar penalty. In fact, they should both be on the same system....
shiffd 08-15-05, 08:33 AM	hey paul, I tried to send the attach to your Juno account, and then followed with email. It wouldn't deliver, I kept getting delivery failure from hotmail. Did you change email accounts?
Paul Hopebringer 08-16-05, 10:55 AM	My Mailbox was full... Sorry about that, you should be able to send it now.
RogerWilco 08-17-05, 03:37 PM	I've tried fatigue in second edition from the Combat&Tactics supplementary. The system is different as you propose, but I think in general it's real hard to get a balanced system. Some points to consider: - Creature size. I found smaller creatures easily get penalized as they generally need to move more often. Maybe you find this realistic, but it unbalances existing mechanics. - Good fort saves and high con get more important. - Some classes/builds are more active as others. Is a Rogue who's been running around for 10 rounds equally fatigued as a archer who's just been plucking arrows, or an arcane caster who's been lobbing fireballs? - Is stuf that makes you gain hitpoints "refreshing", like when a druid wildshapes, or you get cured/healed? It definately makes stuff like restoration and goodberries more important. - Bookkeeping!!!!! We once had a battle with 50+ PCs and NPCs, it just get's insane. It's realy harder to keep track of as HP, etc. because you can have people choose not to do anythin for a round. - People tend to want this to get more "realism", but in my experience it never realy gets more "real". Overall I have found fatigue a bad idea in the past.
Paul Hopebringer 08-17-05, 04:15 PM	NO!!! Don't put those thoughts into other peoples heads!!!! Shame on you! Please, shiffd, continue making the fatigue system. I know *I'd* get a lot of use out of it. He has some good points though. The spellcaster is easy, spells are tiring (duh :P ) but the arrows thingy... well, that is a good point. Maybe certain actions shouldn't induce fatigue... Come to think of it though, firing arrows is hard work. My arm is sore after launching off a few dozen... and so maybe it still works... Maybe the Fatigue DC should be less for certain actions... Wait... arg... its dead... my brain is gone :weep: Sorry about that. I think that encumberance and *light wooden bows and arrows* should take care of things... but I don't know. Whatever system you make for it, the wieght of the items used should affect it as well, I think. Swinging a sword is harder that carring it... stuff like that.
Omega the Powerfull 08-17-05, 09:25 PM	I didn't have time to read all this post, so maibe what I'll say is just stupid. :dancin: All characters could start with some fatigue points, you know like hit points, that increase each level, maibe you cold give a dice for each class too. Associated with that you make a list of actions and how much fatigue points each costs. And then every armor group light, medium, heavy have an extra fatigue cost that you add to the cost of the actions. Spells work the same way, every spell you cast have an fatigue point cost equal to to spell level or spell level -1. So the players are the one's that must track their fatigue points. Then if you passed 25% your total you are fatigued, 50% exausted, and then on. A character must rest for 10 minutes to regain all his fatigue points This system doenst rely on fortitude saves, but on the classes. What u think? :pint:
Omega the Powerfull 08-17-05, 09:36 PM	After you have made the changes discussed in this post. Will you repost with the changes right?
shiffd 09-10-05, 06:39 PM	sorry guys. I've been busy running a game and stuff, stopped checking on this. What I've found is I rarely need the fatigue system, actually I've only used it once for a spell to be cast. It worked out nicely, I think. The spell got cast, which was beyond the characters normal abilities and thus they passed out and needed to be tended to by unpassed out allies. ONe thing is I got a mix, one fatigue caster and then a normal sorceress. So sitting in the back rank the sorceress was able to attend to the fatigue caster. If the entire back rank was fatigue casters, plus maybe the Druid in the front rank, there might be a temptation for the characters to all passthemselves out by overcasting. Well I think the characters might realize what was going on in that situation and avoid it, or maybe they'd all get themselves killed once or twice and then learn and adjust to the situation, also if there were that many highpowerspells cast the enemy might be neutralized and the passing out thing not such an issue. Anyway I just told that complicated story cuz its something I learned via ingame play. address your point- I think what you are referring to is like if you got a rogue tossing daggers from the top of a roof, not encumbered at all, and then like a night in fullplate weilding a 2-handed sword against a swarm of like 3 enemies would it be fair that the rogue suffer the same rate of fatigue? I agree-no. So here is an exceptional rule- A- At the DM's discretion PC's can be excluded from the effects of fatigue during a turn, if it has been decided that they are not being strained. SO, if allthough in combat the character hasn't really been taking any fatiguing actions, then they don't have to make the fatigue check and wont be fatigued. Some more ideas/applications- Anything that encumbers the character (Large weapons, armor etc.) will cause the normal encumberance penalty that already exists and naturally that penalty would apply to fatigue checks. Extreme weather conditions cause their own fatigue when characters are inappropriately dressed for them,- This can be done on a +/- cat basis. So a fighter wearing fullplate in a tropical location could be ruled automatically at +1 fatigue cats (and suffer the subsequent penalty on checks etc.) SO if they've only faught long enough for a light fatigue, they'll be medium cuz of hte heat and their inappropriate attire for the weather. Instead of making some complex rule/table I figure have hte DM apply it on an as needed basis and make sure the player is aware of the problem. "Sir Lancy begins to feel as if he were at sea, his head is buzzing, a mild ring in his ears, sweat poors down his face as if it were rainning and he starts to struggle to breath, its furkin hot in that armour etc.". Note on shooting arrows- Any worthwile bow will have a 50-100 pound pull if not more. BELIEVE me the arm will get tired very fast. One could rule that the fatigue was only effective to the arm, thus if an archer had gained fatigue over several minutes of rapidfire orsomething similar one might rule that they can run at the normal rate (so movement rate is not reduced) but the fatigue penalty would still apply to any thing involving the arms. Actually shooting a bow would probly be the QUICKEST rate of fatigue in regards to the arm muscles. Regular combat would divide the strain evenly over the bodies many muscles, wheras simply shooting a bow puts all the stress on a specific motion of hte arm. Naturally the archer would be accustomed to it, but that's why they are allowed to shoot more than a halfdozen times without their arm going limp.
shiffd 09-10-05, 06:45 PM	o yea, thanks Paul and Omega for the continued imput. I genuinely appreciate it. Paul, I'll try and remember to get that doc back out to you. I'll have to find the right one again.. I was gonna wait till this campaign comes to a conclusion or atleast a couple modules in, then reformat/edit/rehash all my ideas and stuff. and stuff. I also need to organize my RPGing folder so that I can find stuff easier.
Paul Hopebringer 09-19-05, 06:46 PM	I eagerly await the .doc with open mailbox. How goes the game? Are your players enjoying the rules? Do they seem to be easy enough? Are they fast?