Fear in Combat and Cumbering Wounds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fear in Combat and Cumbering Wounds [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dhaerow
01-04-06, 09:21 AM I think fear in combat is generally very underplayed, so I'd like to add that. I also think it is unrealistic that you don't get cumbered by wounds. So I have made these house rules, but I don't know if I should use them or not. Perhaps some changes need to be made. I have also made some importent feats, and two flaws.

I'm aware that they are not totally balanced. Not all classes gets the hardened combatant bonus feat, but if the melee classes didn't, they would be way too weak, and it doesn't make sense for the non melee classes to get it.

Fear in Combat
When hit in combat, a character has to make a will save DC 10 + half the damage dealt (rounded up). If failed, the character becomes shaken for the duration of his next turn. If failed by 5 or more, the character becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds. If failed by 10 or more, the character becomes panicked for 1d4 minutes. If he fails more than one check in a round, the second makes him frightened for 1d4 rounds and the third makes him panicked for 1d4 minutes.

Cumbering Wounds
When a character is reduced to half of his total hit points (rounded down) he becomes fatigued. When he has regained more than half of his total hit points, he is no longer fatigued.

Feats

Tough
Prerequisite: Con 13, Endurance
Benefit: You become fatigued when having been reduced to one quarter of your hit points instead of half

Diehard (replaces PHB fear)
Prerequisite: Con 15, Endurance, Tough
Benefit: You never become fatigued because of lost hit points

Hardened Combatant
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +1
Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat
Special: Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers gain Combatant at first level as a bonus feat

Veteran Combatant
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +8, Hardened Combatant
Benefit: You get a +6 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat

Fearless Combatant
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +16, Hardened Combatant, Veteran Combatant
Benefit: You get a +9 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat

Fury
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +4, Hardened Combatant
Benefit: When you beat the DC of fear when hit by 5 or more, you get at +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the opponent that hit you, on your next turn. This bonus does not stack, when hit more than once.

Flaws

Noncombatant
Drawback: You get a -4 penalty on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat

Fragile
Drawback: You become fatigued when having lost one quarter of your hit points, instead of half

Opinions please, or perhaps some ideas?
Rolof
01-04-06, 06:39 PM Just my opinion, but I think you're adding complexity with
no need. I'm fairly new to 3.5, skipped 3.0 completely, but
I'm very experienced in 2nd ed...back then every monster
had a stat called morale, which was rolled on 2d10, higher
morale numbers meant the critter was a toughguy, and if
you rolled under the morale number it kept on going. Isn't
there still a mechanic for this?

I think in the old days you rolled for certain circumstances,
like reduced to half HPs or quarter HPs, etc. Unless you are
talking about the characters...? In which case, that's just
kinda mean. Granted it's not terribly realistic for Sir Kanigit
to keep on swinging at 1 HP, but if their player says so, he
does just that. It even used to specifically say that in the
old books, more or less implying to DMs "don't screw with
the players". Your wounds idea perhaps has merit, but even
so...still a bit mean.

I think good roleplayers DO sometimes show some fear in
their characters though, without being coerced by arbitrary
mechanics to do so. I remember once having one of mine
run screaming in fear from a ghost or something that made
you age, I think my character only got aged 10 years, but
I figured that was enough to make him panic. The DM and
players were a bit surprised, we all knew we could take the
baddy, there was no mechanical reason for me to run, but I
did it anyway.
Phoenix Knight
01-04-06, 10:43 PM Heroes of Battle has rules for morale saves. IIRC it is a special kind of will save, so it is a little different then the 2E method (although I was about to mention that, too).

I'd say tracking percentages of hit points adds complexity and risks slowing down your game. If that doesn't bother you, then that's a different story.
Pz.Az.04Maus
01-06-06, 11:19 AM Heros of Battle have morale saves for units, and Ravenloft has rules for fear from creatures other than those that have the frightful presence attribute. It's at the old official website that is now debunked. It's in the Netbook of Shadows, under "Fear and loathing in Ravenloft." Has rules for Fear of creatures and of scary things, like dead bodies.
Dhaerow
01-06-06, 01:44 PM Yup, I just read about the morale check in Heroes of Battle. However, I didn't really like it. I don't think it makes sense that a fighter would be more likely to break down than a wizard. Anyway, I realized that the house rules I created was too unbalanced and too big a change to the game. It sucks requiring all melee characters to choose a line of feats, in order not to turn in to complete cowards. I made some changes to them. True, they might slow down the game a bit, but me and my players don't mind - we like realism.

Here they are:

Wounds:

When a person is reduced to less than half her total hit points, she is fatigued. When she regains more than half, she is no longer fatigued.

Pain:

When hit, a person has to make a fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she loses her dexterity bonus and can only take a move action during the next round. If she fails by 5 or more, she is stunned for the next round.

Fear:

A person (without the combatant feat), who is engaged in (mortal) melee, is shaken. If hit, she has to make a will save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she is frightened for 1d4 rounds. If she fails by 5 or more, she is panicked for 1d4 minutes.

Feats:

Pain Resistance
Prerequisite: Con 13
Benefit: +3 bonus on Fortitude saves against pain

Diehard
Prerequisite: Con 15, Endurance
Benefit: You become fatigued when reduced to one quarter of your total hit points instead of half

Combatant
Prerequisite: +1 Base Attack
Benefit: You are not shaken in melee and doesn't have to make any will saves, in order to avoid fear when hit in melee

With my initial rules, the will save represented both how well a person copes with fear and pain. Being shaken was mostly a result of pain, not fear. However, now I have made seperate rules for pain and fear. Fear in combat is eleminated by a feat I guess every melee fighter will take. A persons ability to cope with pain is represented by her fortitude, which is high for that kind of characters, so they won't need feats to make up for it.

Better, right?
Pz.Az.04Maus
01-06-06, 03:37 PM I'll find the website for the rules if you want them. that way, we get a bit of an opinion on rules... Right now, I don't exactly liek the rules for fear from you as-is. Seems too harsh on everybody, and makes the monsters look like boogeymen or real sissies...

Also, when the combatants are taking the feat that makes them immune, it sort of makes it cheap... I mean, even diehard fighters can get scared. Not like they can't take a hit. But sometimes even veterans get freaked out. Did you know that in WWII a Soldier's expected peak efficiency was at about 71 days? After that the combat mental fatigue and shellshock would reduce them to a liability after 144 days of combat, where they most likely were needed to be replaced...
Pz.Az.04Maus
01-06-06, 03:39 PM If you want, I could help you with the morale rules, but I don't have my books here ATM. It might be good to calibrate these rules...
Phoenix Knight
01-06-06, 03:57 PM Wounds:

When a person is reduced to less than half her total hit points, she is fatigued. When she regains more than half, she is no longer fatigued.

Better, right?

Pain:

When hit, a person has to make a fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she loses her dexterity bonus and can only take a move action during the next round. If she fails by 5 or more, she is stunned for the next round.

The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this.

It's nice, because it makes clear the line between injury and wearing down of defenses (turning serious blows into less serious ones) - a line kept blurry by hit points which do both.
A fighter with 100hp that takes 10 damage probably isn't really even injured, he just turned an otherwise lethal hit into a minor bruise. The fighter with 10hp can't do that.

As far as the morale rules go, you could make the save a Fort save instead of Will. Or you could give melee characters a bonus.
Pz.Az.04Maus
01-06-06, 04:00 PM The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this.

It's nice, because it makes clear the line between injury and wearing down of defenses (turning serious blows into less serious ones) - a line kept blurry by hit points which do both.
A fighter with 100hp that takes 10 damage probably isn't really even injured, he just turned an otherwise lethal hit into a minor bruise. The fighter with 10hp can't do that.

As far as the morale rules go, you could make the save a Fort save instead of Will. Or you could give melee characters a bonus.

Maybe Spellcasters and noncombatants could have a willsave, while Fighters and attacking opponents can have a Fort Save. Or someone can choose what they want...
Dhaerow
01-06-06, 05:29 PM Seems too harsh on everybody, and makes the monsters look like boogeymen or real sissies...
Well, I planned to give this feat to every creature, focusing on melee fighting.

Also, when the combatants are taking the feat that makes them immune, it sort of makes it cheap... I mean, even diehard fighters can get scared.
Having taken combatant isn't supposed to mean that you aren't scared in combat, it just means that you have learned not to make those feelings affect your fighting ability, and are prepared emotionally to face your enemy. I just wanted to draw a line, either you're used to melee or you are not... I did it like that so the fighter wouldn't have to take a lot of feats, since his will saves are crappy. But still, you shouldn't be immune, your're probably right. There's too great a difference between having the feat and not having it. Oh well, I think the rules for pain turned out pretty well (right...?), and I actually think they are the most importent. I think I'll just drop the whole fear thing, make it roleplay, unless of course you have some great ideas. I could always make a noncombatant flaw for NPCs such commoners and very cowardly creatures, using the fear rules.

The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this.
Nah, I looked at it, but I think it is way too big a change to make.
Lina_Inverse
01-06-06, 06:52 PM So a level 20, low wisdom barbarian, gets scared when hes dealt 1 damage?

Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level.
Dhaerow
01-07-06, 03:37 AM So a level 20, low wisdom barbarian, gets scared when hes dealt 1 damage?
Yeah, that wouldn't really make sense, which was one of the reasons to why I decided to drop the fear rules.
Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level.
I don't see why.
Gilean
01-07-06, 04:26 AM Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level.So, you don't like death spirals?
Chess is fundamentally flawed on a game level, because when pieces get removed from play, it becomes harder to removes pieces from the other guy? Interesting. Likewise, the entire RPG Rune is flawed? I don't buy that, either.
Should I extrapolate your statement a bit? If death spiral is fundamentally flawed, would an opposite effect be fundamentally good at game level, where opposite effect is one in which the loser gains more and more advantage?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dhaerow 01-04-06, 09:21 AM	I think fear in combat is generally very underplayed, so I'd like to add that. I also think it is unrealistic that you don't get cumbered by wounds. So I have made these house rules, but I don't know if I should use them or not. Perhaps some changes need to be made. I have also made some importent feats, and two flaws. I'm aware that they are not totally balanced. Not all classes gets the hardened combatant bonus feat, but if the melee classes didn't, they would be way too weak, and it doesn't make sense for the non melee classes to get it. Fear in Combat When hit in combat, a character has to make a will save DC 10 + half the damage dealt (rounded up). If failed, the character becomes shaken for the duration of his next turn. If failed by 5 or more, the character becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds. If failed by 10 or more, the character becomes panicked for 1d4 minutes. If he fails more than one check in a round, the second makes him frightened for 1d4 rounds and the third makes him panicked for 1d4 minutes. Cumbering Wounds When a character is reduced to half of his total hit points (rounded down) he becomes fatigued. When he has regained more than half of his total hit points, he is no longer fatigued. Feats Tough Prerequisite: Con 13, Endurance Benefit: You become fatigued when having been reduced to one quarter of your hit points instead of half Diehard (replaces PHB fear) Prerequisite: Con 15, Endurance, Tough Benefit: You never become fatigued because of lost hit points Hardened Combatant Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +1 Benefit: You get a +3 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat Special: Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins and Rangers gain Combatant at first level as a bonus feat Veteran Combatant Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +8, Hardened Combatant Benefit: You get a +6 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat Fearless Combatant Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +16, Hardened Combatant, Veteran Combatant Benefit: You get a +9 bonus on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat Fury Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +4, Hardened Combatant Benefit: When you beat the DC of fear when hit by 5 or more, you get at +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the opponent that hit you, on your next turn. This bonus does not stack, when hit more than once. Flaws Noncombatant Drawback: You get a -4 penalty on will saves to resist fear when hit in combat Fragile Drawback: You become fatigued when having lost one quarter of your hit points, instead of half Opinions please, or perhaps some ideas?
Rolof 01-04-06, 06:39 PM	Just my opinion, but I think you're adding complexity with no need. I'm fairly new to 3.5, skipped 3.0 completely, but I'm very experienced in 2nd ed...back then every monster had a stat called morale, which was rolled on 2d10, higher morale numbers meant the critter was a toughguy, and if you rolled under the morale number it kept on going. Isn't there still a mechanic for this? I think in the old days you rolled for certain circumstances, like reduced to half HPs or quarter HPs, etc. Unless you are talking about the characters...? In which case, that's just kinda mean. Granted it's not terribly realistic for Sir Kanigit to keep on swinging at 1 HP, but if their player says so, he does just that. It even used to specifically say that in the old books, more or less implying to DMs "don't screw with the players". Your wounds idea perhaps has merit, but even so...still a bit mean. I think good roleplayers DO sometimes show some fear in their characters though, without being coerced by arbitrary mechanics to do so. I remember once having one of mine run screaming in fear from a ghost or something that made you age, I think my character only got aged 10 years, but I figured that was enough to make him panic. The DM and players were a bit surprised, we all knew we could take the baddy, there was no mechanical reason for me to run, but I did it anyway.
Phoenix Knight 01-04-06, 10:43 PM	Heroes of Battle has rules for morale saves. IIRC it is a special kind of will save, so it is a little different then the 2E method (although I was about to mention that, too). I'd say tracking percentages of hit points adds complexity and risks slowing down your game. If that doesn't bother you, then that's a different story.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-06-06, 11:19 AM	Heros of Battle have morale saves for units, and Ravenloft has rules for fear from creatures other than those that have the frightful presence attribute. It's at the old official website that is now debunked. It's in the Netbook of Shadows, under "Fear and loathing in Ravenloft." Has rules for Fear of creatures and of scary things, like dead bodies.
Dhaerow 01-06-06, 01:44 PM	Yup, I just read about the morale check in Heroes of Battle. However, I didn't really like it. I don't think it makes sense that a fighter would be more likely to break down than a wizard. Anyway, I realized that the house rules I created was too unbalanced and too big a change to the game. It sucks requiring all melee characters to choose a line of feats, in order not to turn in to complete cowards. I made some changes to them. True, they might slow down the game a bit, but me and my players don't mind - we like realism. Here they are: Wounds: When a person is reduced to less than half her total hit points, she is fatigued. When she regains more than half, she is no longer fatigued. Pain: When hit, a person has to make a fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she loses her dexterity bonus and can only take a move action during the next round. If she fails by 5 or more, she is stunned for the next round. Fear: A person (without the combatant feat), who is engaged in (mortal) melee, is shaken. If hit, she has to make a will save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she is frightened for 1d4 rounds. If she fails by 5 or more, she is panicked for 1d4 minutes. Feats: Pain Resistance Prerequisite: Con 13 Benefit: +3 bonus on Fortitude saves against pain Diehard Prerequisite: Con 15, Endurance Benefit: You become fatigued when reduced to one quarter of your total hit points instead of half Combatant Prerequisite: +1 Base Attack Benefit: You are not shaken in melee and doesn't have to make any will saves, in order to avoid fear when hit in melee With my initial rules, the will save represented both how well a person copes with fear and pain. Being shaken was mostly a result of pain, not fear. However, now I have made seperate rules for pain and fear. Fear in combat is eleminated by a feat I guess every melee fighter will take. A persons ability to cope with pain is represented by her fortitude, which is high for that kind of characters, so they won't need feats to make up for it. Better, right?
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-06-06, 03:37 PM	I'll find the website for the rules if you want them. that way, we get a bit of an opinion on rules... Right now, I don't exactly liek the rules for fear from you as-is. Seems too harsh on everybody, and makes the monsters look like boogeymen or real sissies... Also, when the combatants are taking the feat that makes them immune, it sort of makes it cheap... I mean, even diehard fighters can get scared. Not like they can't take a hit. But sometimes even veterans get freaked out. Did you know that in WWII a Soldier's expected peak efficiency was at about 71 days? After that the combat mental fatigue and shellshock would reduce them to a liability after 144 days of combat, where they most likely were needed to be replaced...
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-06-06, 03:39 PM	If you want, I could help you with the morale rules, but I don't have my books here ATM. It might be good to calibrate these rules...
Phoenix Knight 01-06-06, 03:57 PM	Wounds: When a person is reduced to less than half her total hit points, she is fatigued. When she regains more than half, she is no longer fatigued. Better, right? Pain: When hit, a person has to make a fortitude save DC 10 + half the damage dealt. If she fails, she loses her dexterity bonus and can only take a move action during the next round. If she fails by 5 or more, she is stunned for the next round. The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this. It's nice, because it makes clear the line between injury and wearing down of defenses (turning serious blows into less serious ones) - a line kept blurry by hit points which do both. A fighter with 100hp that takes 10 damage probably isn't really even injured, he just turned an otherwise lethal hit into a minor bruise. The fighter with 10hp can't do that. As far as the morale rules go, you could make the save a Fort save instead of Will. Or you could give melee characters a bonus.
Pz.Az.04Maus 01-06-06, 04:00 PM	The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this. It's nice, because it makes clear the line between injury and wearing down of defenses (turning serious blows into less serious ones) - a line kept blurry by hit points which do both. A fighter with 100hp that takes 10 damage probably isn't really even injured, he just turned an otherwise lethal hit into a minor bruise. The fighter with 10hp can't do that. As far as the morale rules go, you could make the save a Fort save instead of Will. Or you could give melee characters a bonus. Maybe Spellcasters and noncombatants could have a willsave, while Fighters and attacking opponents can have a Fort Save. Or someone can choose what they want...
Dhaerow 01-06-06, 05:29 PM	Seems too harsh on everybody, and makes the monsters look like boogeymen or real sissies... Well, I planned to give this feat to every creature, focusing on melee fighting. Also, when the combatants are taking the feat that makes them immune, it sort of makes it cheap... I mean, even diehard fighters can get scared. Having taken combatant isn't supposed to mean that you aren't scared in combat, it just means that you have learned not to make those feelings affect your fighting ability, and are prepared emotionally to face your enemy. I just wanted to draw a line, either you're used to melee or you are not... I did it like that so the fighter wouldn't have to take a lot of feats, since his will saves are crappy. But still, you shouldn't be immune, your're probably right. There's too great a difference between having the feat and not having it. Oh well, I think the rules for pain turned out pretty well (right...?), and I actually think they are the most importent. I think I'll just drop the whole fear thing, make it roleplay, unless of course you have some great ideas. I could always make a noncombatant flaw for NPCs such commoners and very cowardly creatures, using the fear rules. The vitality/wound point system has a mechanic very similar to this. When you take a Wound, you become fatigued (and may be stunned). You should consider this. Nah, I looked at it, but I think it is way too big a change to make.
Lina_Inverse 01-06-06, 06:52 PM	So a level 20, low wisdom barbarian, gets scared when hes dealt 1 damage? Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level.
Dhaerow 01-07-06, 03:37 AM	So a level 20, low wisdom barbarian, gets scared when hes dealt 1 damage? Yeah, that wouldn't really make sense, which was one of the reasons to why I decided to drop the fear rules. Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level. I don't see why.
Gilean 01-07-06, 04:26 AM	Additionally, all systems based on makeing the loser lose more is fundamentally flawed on a game level.So, you don't like death spirals? Chess is fundamentally flawed on a game level, because when pieces get removed from play, it becomes harder to removes pieces from the other guy? Interesting. Likewise, the entire RPG Rune is flawed? I don't buy that, either. Should I extrapolate your statement a bit? If death spiral is fundamentally flawed, would an opposite effect be fundamentally good at game level, where opposite effect is one in which the loser gains more and more advantage?