Feat / Ability house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feat / Ability house rule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Mhoram
11-30-05, 12:53 AM Just curious what people think of this, and whether you would or wouldn't take the option if it were available.

Basically when you gain an ability score increase due to character level, you can trade that in for 2 feats instead. You can do this any time you get the increase, or you can take the increase.

It's a houserule I am contemplating.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-30-05, 01:53 AM One feat, maybe. Two feats is way more powerful than a 1 point ability boost, especially since once you get to epic levels, you can take an ability point as a feat (Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, etc.).
Lord Mhoram
11-30-05, 10:56 AM I have my own Epic rules, and one of those is the trade of an Epic feat for two regular feats. Part of the reason I ran the houserule I wrote as I did. As an addendum to the above:

At Epic level, you can trade an ability score improvement for an epic feat.

But your point on the usefulness/power of the rule I will look at. I always considered one feat too weak, I'd have put it at a feat and a half (which is silly), but I run higher power games, so if I err, I err on the side of "more power to the players" kind of thing.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-01-05, 03:51 AM I always considered one feat too weak, I'd have put it at a feat and a half (which is silly).
It's not silly if you run feat points.

It's sort of analogous to the difference between Vancian spellcasting and psionics; instead of getting feats at fixed levels, you get a fixed number of feat points every level, and the average feat costs about three levels worth of points.

This sort of system lets you 1) more accurately balance feats by setting reduced/increased prices for weak/powerful feats respectively, and 2) allow players to "hoard" their feat points to acquire feats at later levels.

But yeah, if you work out something like that, you can let players sac their ability point for 1.5x feat points, where x is the average cost.

I still think it should only be worth one, though.
FlameLover
12-01-05, 04:18 AM I'm with Tyler. 1 feat isn't quite enough but 2 is way too much so I'd err on the side of caution with one. If that feat is spent wisely it could be a huge boon (especially if used to take prereq feats like Dodge/Mobility for Spring Attack, etc.)
Lord Mhoram
12-01-05, 11:46 AM It's not silly if you run feat points.

That could work, and a cool idea, but way too much work for me to figure out the points for all the feats. :D

If D&D were my primary system, and I ran a regular group, I would likely do it.
Lord Mhoram
12-01-05, 11:53 AM I'm with Tyler. 1 feat isn't quite enough but 2 is way too much so I'd err on the side of caution with one. If that feat is spent wisely it could be a huge boon (especially if used to take prereq feats like Dodge/Mobility for Spring Attack, etc.)

Yeah, I can see that. In a normal game I would likely agree with you.

In the stuff I run now, we use Gestalt Characters, and an ability generation method that pretty much sets the minimum Ability score around 15. We also have no multiclassing penalty, and start at 3rd level.

We like to run the "epic heroes of the age" kind of tone for the games. Plus we are usually only running two characters total, so uppowering them help in running prepublished adventures.

So it being a hugely high powered game. In that situation 2 feats for an Ability point isn't as much of a big deal as it would be in a more "normal" game.

It's good to know that people agree with about where I would put the power. One feat for a normal game, but that being slightly underpowered
Xeviat-DM
12-01-05, 01:33 PM Considering that I feel an ability score boost is worth a standard feat, not an epic feat, I'd reduce your bonus to a single feat. I wish boosting ability scores was easier in D&D, but it doesn't look like that can happen in any easy way.
Tyler Do'Urden
12-02-05, 08:04 AM That could work, and a cool idea, but way too much work for me to figure out the points for all the feats.

Someone on these boards worked this out (I can't remember who and I apologize for stealing) but it makes an excellent starting point. By default, each feat costs 30 points (See, I originally set it at 3. 30 divides by a lot more numbers). Characters gain 40 feat points at 1st level and 10 feat points each level thereafter (kinda like skill points). Classes that gain a bonus feats at regular intervals obviously now gain bonus feat points instead. You have to use regular points and bonus points separately; you can't, for example, take 15 regular points and 15 fighter points to buy a feat a level early. Fighters gain 45 bonus feat points at 1st level and and 15 bonus feat points each level thereafter. Wizards gain Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, and 6 bonus feat points at 1st level. Psions instead gain 36 bonus feat points at 1st level. Both classes gain 6 bonus feat points each level thereafter. Psychic Warriors gain 50 bonus feat points at 1st level and 10 bonus feat points each level thereafter. The nature of this system requires that you save up your feat points until you can afford at least one feat. You should, however, set a maximum on the number of feat points a character can "carry" before she must make a selection. This limit should be high enough that the characters can afford any feat they might qualify for, but not so high that they might buy an entire feat tree in one shot, say 40 or 50.
One of the first things you can do with this system is delete the Open Minded feat. Open Minded is a feat that grants you 5 extra skill points. If all feats default to 30 feat points, then we can simply allow characters to purchase an extra skill point for 6 feat points.
If you're feeling particularly flexible, you might be willing to let the door swing both ways allowing characters to sacrifice skill points for feat points. It would be time consuming, but highly advisable to then come up with bonus feat lists for the classes that would be most likely to do this.

At epic levels, since you give your characters the option of purchasing an epic feat or two nonepic feats, you use this system to entirely eliminate the [EPIC] feat type. Simply default epic feats to 60 points, give characters 20 feat points per epic level, and remove the hoarding limit. Nonepic characters will be unable to buy epic feats because they won't be able to save up enough points. Epic characters will be able to buy either an epic feat or two nonepic feats every three levels.

As for varying the costs for different feats, it's best to just assume they all cost 30 and tweak things after playtesting for a while. If your players feel, and you agree, that Weapon Focus really shouldn't cost 30 points, you can downgrade it to 25. If you feel Great Cleave is really letting the barbarian cut a bloody swatch across the continent, you'd be within your rights to up the price to 35 or 40.

It's really flexible and very clean once you get it in place. Fiddle with it.
Thelon Fairblade
12-02-05, 08:51 AM I allow characters to spend non-epic feats for attribute points. I suppose I would allow them to trade attribute points for feats, as well.

If you feel that an attribute point is worht "1.5 feats", consider that they are "spending" that extra half-feat to have the *option* of going against the rules in this way. After all, many feats and prestige classes are balanced by the minimum required levels necessary to take all the prerequisite feats.

Example: Whirlwind Attack isn't available to non-fighters at 4th level because they can't get all the feat requirements taken care of until 6th. But if they can trade their level 4 attribute point for a feat... voila, Whirlwind attack for the (human) paladin or ranger or other full BAB class. That's 2 full levels sooner than normal, without having to dip even one level into Fighter.
Lord Mhoram
12-02-05, 01:55 PM It's really flexible and very clean once you get it in place. Fiddle with it.

Oh I like that. Nifty. Thanks for posting it.

Given my primary system is HERO - point buy things like that feel very natural. :)

I've been toying with doing a D20 modern Gamma world (now that we have Apoc, and Cyber) and was going to look at d20 spectaculars for how they implement powers, and how I could adopt it for that game. A point based feat system would work really well there. Coolness.
Lord Mhoram
12-02-05, 01:57 PM If you feel that an attribute point is worht "1.5 feats", consider that they are "spending" that extra half-feat to have the *option* of going against the rules in this way. After all, many feats and prestige classes are balanced by the minimum required levels necessary to take all the prerequisite feats.

I see that. That was in my brain when I was considering it in the first place, but went with two, just because I like great gonzo powered games. :) As I had stated previously, I would, in a strait game, do just one. And the logic you posted is one of the reasons why. :)
Snargash MoonClaw
12-03-05, 03:21 PM I've also found some form trade in to be reasonable. The house rule I use is that a character can trade in 1/2 of their base Skill points for 1 feat upon gaining a level (which I also apply to monster/NPC advancement). This means it costs, for example, a fighter 1 skill point or a rogue 4 skill points. No more than 1 feat (per level) may be gained this way. This is workable when using a lot of expansion material since, even if a character does this at every level, they still can hardly scratch the surface of the feats available to them. Players do need to consider carefully their use of skill points in this way however, since not only do I emphasize skill usage, but many prestige classes (especially those I create for my game world,) require high ranks in particular skills. . .

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Mhoram 11-30-05, 12:53 AM	Just curious what people think of this, and whether you would or wouldn't take the option if it were available. Basically when you gain an ability score increase due to character level, you can trade that in for 2 feats instead. You can do this any time you get the increase, or you can take the increase. It's a houserule I am contemplating.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-30-05, 01:53 AM	One feat, maybe. Two feats is way more powerful than a 1 point ability boost, especially since once you get to epic levels, you can take an ability point as a feat (Great Strength, Great Dexterity, Great Constitution, etc.).
Lord Mhoram 11-30-05, 10:56 AM	I have my own Epic rules, and one of those is the trade of an Epic feat for two regular feats. Part of the reason I ran the houserule I wrote as I did. As an addendum to the above: At Epic level, you can trade an ability score improvement for an epic feat. But your point on the usefulness/power of the rule I will look at. I always considered one feat too weak, I'd have put it at a feat and a half (which is silly), but I run higher power games, so if I err, I err on the side of "more power to the players" kind of thing.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-01-05, 03:51 AM	I always considered one feat too weak, I'd have put it at a feat and a half (which is silly). It's not silly if you run feat points. It's sort of analogous to the difference between Vancian spellcasting and psionics; instead of getting feats at fixed levels, you get a fixed number of feat points every level, and the average feat costs about three levels worth of points. This sort of system lets you 1) more accurately balance feats by setting reduced/increased prices for weak/powerful feats respectively, and 2) allow players to "hoard" their feat points to acquire feats at later levels. But yeah, if you work out something like that, you can let players sac their ability point for 1.5x feat points, where x is the average cost. I still think it should only be worth one, though.
FlameLover 12-01-05, 04:18 AM	I'm with Tyler. 1 feat isn't quite enough but 2 is way too much so I'd err on the side of caution with one. If that feat is spent wisely it could be a huge boon (especially if used to take prereq feats like Dodge/Mobility for Spring Attack, etc.)
Lord Mhoram 12-01-05, 11:46 AM	It's not silly if you run feat points. That could work, and a cool idea, but way too much work for me to figure out the points for all the feats. :D If D&D were my primary system, and I ran a regular group, I would likely do it.
Lord Mhoram 12-01-05, 11:53 AM	I'm with Tyler. 1 feat isn't quite enough but 2 is way too much so I'd err on the side of caution with one. If that feat is spent wisely it could be a huge boon (especially if used to take prereq feats like Dodge/Mobility for Spring Attack, etc.) Yeah, I can see that. In a normal game I would likely agree with you. In the stuff I run now, we use Gestalt Characters, and an ability generation method that pretty much sets the minimum Ability score around 15. We also have no multiclassing penalty, and start at 3rd level. We like to run the "epic heroes of the age" kind of tone for the games. Plus we are usually only running two characters total, so uppowering them help in running prepublished adventures. So it being a hugely high powered game. In that situation 2 feats for an Ability point isn't as much of a big deal as it would be in a more "normal" game. It's good to know that people agree with about where I would put the power. One feat for a normal game, but that being slightly underpowered
Xeviat-DM 12-01-05, 01:33 PM	Considering that I feel an ability score boost is worth a standard feat, not an epic feat, I'd reduce your bonus to a single feat. I wish boosting ability scores was easier in D&D, but it doesn't look like that can happen in any easy way.
Tyler Do'Urden 12-02-05, 08:04 AM	That could work, and a cool idea, but way too much work for me to figure out the points for all the feats. Someone on these boards worked this out (I can't remember who and I apologize for stealing) but it makes an excellent starting point. By default, each feat costs 30 points (See, I originally set it at 3. 30 divides by a lot more numbers). Characters gain 40 feat points at 1st level and 10 feat points each level thereafter (kinda like skill points). Classes that gain a bonus feats at regular intervals obviously now gain bonus feat points instead. You have to use regular points and bonus points separately; you can't, for example, take 15 regular points and 15 fighter points to buy a feat a level early. Fighters gain 45 bonus feat points at 1st level and and 15 bonus feat points each level thereafter. Wizards gain Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll, and 6 bonus feat points at 1st level. Psions instead gain 36 bonus feat points at 1st level. Both classes gain 6 bonus feat points each level thereafter. Psychic Warriors gain 50 bonus feat points at 1st level and 10 bonus feat points each level thereafter. The nature of this system requires that you save up your feat points until you can afford at least one feat. You should, however, set a maximum on the number of feat points a character can "carry" before she must make a selection. This limit should be high enough that the characters can afford any feat they might qualify for, but not so high that they might buy an entire feat tree in one shot, say 40 or 50. One of the first things you can do with this system is delete the Open Minded feat. Open Minded is a feat that grants you 5 extra skill points. If all feats default to 30 feat points, then we can simply allow characters to purchase an extra skill point for 6 feat points. If you're feeling particularly flexible, you might be willing to let the door swing both ways allowing characters to sacrifice skill points for feat points. It would be time consuming, but highly advisable to then come up with bonus feat lists for the classes that would be most likely to do this. At epic levels, since you give your characters the option of purchasing an epic feat or two nonepic feats, you use this system to entirely eliminate the [EPIC] feat type. Simply default epic feats to 60 points, give characters 20 feat points per epic level, and remove the hoarding limit. Nonepic characters will be unable to buy epic feats because they won't be able to save up enough points. Epic characters will be able to buy either an epic feat or two nonepic feats every three levels. As for varying the costs for different feats, it's best to just assume they all cost 30 and tweak things after playtesting for a while. If your players feel, and you agree, that Weapon Focus really shouldn't cost 30 points, you can downgrade it to 25. If you feel Great Cleave is really letting the barbarian cut a bloody swatch across the continent, you'd be within your rights to up the price to 35 or 40. It's really flexible and very clean once you get it in place. Fiddle with it.
Thelon Fairblade 12-02-05, 08:51 AM	I allow characters to spend non-epic feats for attribute points. I suppose I would allow them to trade attribute points for feats, as well. If you feel that an attribute point is worht "1.5 feats", consider that they are "spending" that extra half-feat to have the option of going against the rules in this way. After all, many feats and prestige classes are balanced by the minimum required levels necessary to take all the prerequisite feats. Example: Whirlwind Attack isn't available to non-fighters at 4th level because they can't get all the feat requirements taken care of until 6th. But if they can trade their level 4 attribute point for a feat... voila, Whirlwind attack for the (human) paladin or ranger or other full BAB class. That's 2 full levels sooner than normal, without having to dip even one level into Fighter.
Lord Mhoram 12-02-05, 01:55 PM	It's really flexible and very clean once you get it in place. Fiddle with it. Oh I like that. Nifty. Thanks for posting it. Given my primary system is HERO - point buy things like that feel very natural. :) I've been toying with doing a D20 modern Gamma world (now that we have Apoc, and Cyber) and was going to look at d20 spectaculars for how they implement powers, and how I could adopt it for that game. A point based feat system would work really well there. Coolness.
Lord Mhoram 12-02-05, 01:57 PM	If you feel that an attribute point is worht "1.5 feats", consider that they are "spending" that extra half-feat to have the option of going against the rules in this way. After all, many feats and prestige classes are balanced by the minimum required levels necessary to take all the prerequisite feats. I see that. That was in my brain when I was considering it in the first place, but went with two, just because I like great gonzo powered games. :) As I had stated previously, I would, in a strait game, do just one. And the logic you posted is one of the reasons why. :)
Snargash MoonClaw 12-03-05, 03:21 PM	I've also found some form trade in to be reasonable. The house rule I use is that a character can trade in 1/2 of their base Skill points for 1 feat upon gaining a level (which I also apply to monster/NPC advancement). This means it costs, for example, a fighter 1 skill point or a rogue 4 skill points. No more than 1 feat (per level) may be gained this way. This is workable when using a lot of expansion material since, even if a character does this at every level, they still can hardly scratch the surface of the feats available to them. Players do need to consider carefully their use of skill points in this way however, since not only do I emphasize skill usage, but many prestige classes (especially those I create for my game world,) require high ranks in particular skills. . .