Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paul Hopebringer 12-18-06, 01:59 PM	I, as the DM, want to allow my players access to feats at the cost of several things... but I need a value system... I realize that all feats arn't created equal... but I want to base the system around the characters taking feats that are "optimal" for there build, by which I mean that the feats would be the power level that "WoTC" bases the balance around. I assume that +1 LA would net you 2 feats. Why? Because I tried mathing out the difference between the warrior and the fighter... and I came up with something along the lines of a feat being half a level... so one negative level should do it. I also assume that 6 hit points should get you a feat. I realy feel that 6 hitpoints should get you a feat, even when I look at the toughness feat. BAB is off limits, because it won't hurt a wizard and will *kill* a fighter... or I could make it so you can only reduce BAB to one half your character level, and I guess the same would apply to caster level as well... I suppose that would get the job done... ...So, what do you think? Are my costs out of wack? Am I bang on?
memberZ 12-18-06, 02:18 PM	How about giving them an extra feat every other level and balancing it at LA+1. It's like gestalting a fighter onto everyone’s character without the BAB, save, armor benefits.
Paul Hopebringer 12-18-06, 02:57 PM	OK. Won't that raise the power level of my game, though? I want to keep the power level in check... and an additional feat a level seems like it would get crazy...
memberZ 12-18-06, 04:46 PM	Being that gestalt is a LA+2 and that they won't be getting full benifits of gestalting a LA+1 seems fair. If you worry about the fighter having too many feats make them take the UA alternative of the sneak attack bonus tree of the rogue. So for a 1 level hop everyone would get 1 bonus feat every other level and the fighter would opt out of his normal feat tree for the sneak attack tree. At low levels it is powerful, at medium levels it is more balanced, and at high levels unnoticable (possibly even a hinderance for the LA).
Draegun Fury 12-19-06, 03:45 PM	Gestalt = LA +2? Are you serious? That just doesn't seem right. So a fighter for a LA of +2 can get 0 thru 9th level Arcane spells? That's pretty crazy, makes the Hobgoblin at LA +1 look a bit sad.
Seerow 12-19-06, 05:16 PM	That's not entirely accurate. Gestalted characters are generally considered equal to their CR+2. Most people would equate that with LA+4.
memberZ 12-19-06, 05:20 PM	Draegun have you read the gestalt section of Unearted Arcana? Now I'm not trying to bait you, although I do sense a touch of it one your side. Your fighter/wizard just gave up armor and its wizard feat tree. Gestalt is for a small party in a gestalt world, not as an option in a regular game. It is quite powerful at low levels as such. It starts to balance around the middle levels. Becomes a crutch at high levels as the LA+2 is a big (if not huge) disadvantage.
Draegun Fury 12-19-06, 05:45 PM	Please let me assure you I'm not trying to bait anybody, I'm simply trying to see how Gestalt could possibly be a LA of +2. I mean sure its in a Gestalt world, but a LA +2 implies it is balanced to a non-Gestalt character of 2 levels higher. I've never player Gestalt but I've had a read and it looks cool. It also looks unbelievably powerful. If I made a Race that was identicle to Humans except it got 0 thru 9th level Cleric Spells, the ability to Turn Undead as a 20th Level Cleric, and a +6 bonus to Will saves, then tried to claim this new race only had a LA of +2 I would be laughed out of the boards. Seriously, I'm not trying to bait at all but I am having a very hard time trying to comprhend a Gestalt Character as being equal to a character of its normal level with a +2 LA. Even a +4 LA seems quite low. I mean, can you honestly see a level 12 normal character going toe to toe with a level 10 gestalt? Cheers.
memberZ 12-19-06, 05:52 PM	From UAChallenge Ratings : Gestalt characters can obviously handle more opposition than standard characters. The simple way to compensate for this is to use adventures with tougher monsters. In general , a party of FOUR gestalt characters can handle multiple encounters with a single monster of Challenge Rating equal to their average level +1. If the monster poses a challenge because it forces the characters to succeed on life-threatening saving throws (such as with a medusa or a wyvern), it’s even weaker against gestalt characters, who have few or no weak saves. Characters can handle multiple encounters with such monsters at a Challenge Rating equal to their average level +2. So by the numbers : Regular PCs : 4 level 5 players can run 4 CR 5 encounters___ or players levels added/4=CR (5+5+5+5/4=CR 5 encounters) Gestalt : 4 level 5 gestalt players can run 4 CR 7 encounters (by above). so x=pc ecl x+x+x+x/4= 7 now 4x/4 is x so we are left with x=7 (5 levels plus a LA of 2)
memberZ 12-19-06, 05:58 PM	I am having a very hard time trying to comprehend a Gestalt Character as being equal to a character of its normal level with a +2 LA. That's because the 2 should never be in the same world. Truly in a gestalt world everyone is to be gestalt even the farmer and beggar. The LA is to balance against monsters not other characters especially against non-gestalt characters.
Draegun Fury 12-19-06, 06:26 PM	That's because the 2 should never be in the same world. Truly in a gestalt world everyone is to be gestalt even the farmer and beggar. The LA is to balance against monsters not other characters especially against non-gestalt characters. And the reason the 2 should never be in the same world is because a Gestalt is far more powerful than a LA +2. If a Gestalt character was trully a LA +2, then you could play a level 10 Gestalt Paladin/Cleric in a caaign with a Normal level 12 Fighter, and they would be balanced. That is what Level Adjustment implies, it is saying that Gestalt = Normal +2. But as far as I can see it doesn't. Cheers.
archcomponent 12-19-06, 06:37 PM	If a Gestalt character was trully a LA +2, then you could play a level 10 Gestalt Paladin/Cleric in a caaign with a Normal level 12 Fighter, and they would be balanced. You sure you are not setting up a skewed comparison from the get-go? You frame it in terms of a Fighter giving up two levels and everything he gets in return. For some reason, it looks like much less of a boost if you look at it like a Wizard giving up two levels and the things he gets for that. Though either way the character is clearly now beset by greater MAD. In the end, the more accurate number may be closer to 4, but I would really love to see comparisons that did not start off of straightclassed Fighter as a baseline. Seriously. How does your comparison go with a Fighter 16 and a Warblade 14, the latter carrying an imaginary LA +2?
Draegun Fury 12-19-06, 07:19 PM	I'm not understanding what you're saying though I think I get the jist. The reason I used fighter is because it is a simple class. Compare a Leve 10 Gestalt Fighter/Rogue (2 straight forward classes), against a Straight Level 12 Fighter, or a Straight level 12 Rogue, or a Multiclass Fighter 6/Rogue 6. In all these examples the Gestalt is clearly more powerful. I like comparing Gestalt against multiclasses of their components, it makes for a clear comparrioson of how powerful Gestalt is. Cheers.
archcomponent 12-19-06, 07:44 PM	The reason I used fighter is because it is a simple class. It sure is. Using your same methods and the notion that something being more powerful than straight fighter shows imbalance, could you not compare a straightclassed fighter to a fighter/(useful class) and say that this proves that multiclassing must be unbalanced?
memberZ 12-19-06, 07:49 PM	First off, sorry for the thread hijack. Now to this balance issue. Stats 16 15 14 12 12 10 both will take Power Attack at first, and wield great axe, full hp at 1st ½ thereafter. Regular Barbarian 5th level stats 15 14 16 12 12 10 forth level point into str so str 16. Has 2nd rage and imp uncanny and a feat. Wears breastplate armor and made Axe +1. They have 51 Hp, AC 17, +5 to hit, and base saves 4/1/1. Gestalt Barbarian/Warlock 1st level stats 15 14 16 10 12 12 (now this isn’t fully fair as CHA is needed but for this argument). Gets eldritch blast and hideous blow. Wears chain shirt (light armor for warlock). They have 15 HP, AC 16, +1 to hit, and base saves 2/0/2. Regular Barbarian can dump all +5 to hit to net +10 damage, were as the gestalt can only drop +1 to net +2. So at +0 Bab(power attack), the regular has +4 to hit were as the gestalt has +2. Now to damage, Regular gets 1d12 + 10 (PA) + 4 (str)+ 1(enhancement) and the gestalt has 1d12+ 2(PA)+ 3(str)+ 1d6(eldritch). That averages 21.5 for the regular and 15 for the gestalt. So the regular has twice the chance of hitting 6.5 more points of average damage and 36 more HPs. Doesn’t quite look like +4 LA is balanced. Drop the Regular to 3rd stats back to 15 14 16 12 12 10 and now we have +3 to PA for +6 damage, base saves 3/1/1 and 33 hp. To hit no balances as all is dumped to PA. Damage : Regular 1d12 + 3 (str) + 6 (PA) or 15.5 average damage Gestalt as above averages at 15 The gestalt still has 18 less HP and 1 less AC A touch more balanced at LA +2
unundindur 12-25-06, 03:27 PM	While its not exactely the same you could look at the system Realia in my signature :) It makes feats the main way of progression instead of levels.
True Cavalier 12-26-06, 12:21 PM	Maybe this will help? http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html
Szatany 12-26-06, 02:10 PM	Gestalt = LA +2? Are you serious? That just doesn't seem right. So a fighter for a LA of +2 can get 0 thru 9th level Arcane spells? That's pretty crazy, makes the Hobgoblin at LA +1 look a bit sad. THey tell you that gestalt = LA+2 but it doesn't. It might in some cases, it will definitely not in others. I found, through some playtesting, that the formula of +1/5 levels is much closer to the truth, but even it can be shaky depending on certain class combinations. Use at your own peril :) Also, I once allowed in my game to take 4 feats for LA+1 whenever they leveled. Some took it, some didn't, one player even took it twice (a monk IIRC). There was no visible difference in power level between those who had more feats than the others. That allows me to say that 2 feats for LA+1 is definitely a bad deal.
Keterys 12-28-06, 01:45 PM	So a fighter for a LA of +2 can get 0 thru 9th level Arcane spells? Mean like a Fighter 1 / Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Eldritch Knight 9 / Abjurant Champion 5 (may be off a level there) who gets BAB 18, Spellcasting 18, and some extra benefits? :)
unundindur 12-29-06, 08:18 AM	yes, but not the way you here suggest :) There is a rule that says you cannot have a dualclass-class 8such as eldrich knight or traumaturgist (whatever its called) in a gestalt build :) I am sure it can be done though, via prestige classes. that said, its not the smartest move mixing gestalt and non-gestalt players. The UA I beleive states this.
ragoftag 12-29-06, 11:56 AM	Wow! Taking feats rather than leveling! Intriguing! I presume no BAB, HD, no anything? How many feats? Limit on times you can take it? Egad! This opens mindboggling possibilities! And choices! Do I take that next 'dead' level or pick up a 'feat' level? Wow!
Paul Hopebringer 01-07-07, 05:25 PM	ragoftag: Yep, that is exactly what I was thinking. It's either get a level with all the goodies, or straight up two feats. Beautiful, no? I wouldn't place an artificial limit on it, you can take it until you run out of levels if you're stupi... if you don't have the forsight to see that you are going to be uber-vurnerable, and won't qualify for anything that even comes close to making up for it. As for gestalting and hijacked gestalting... I don't want to offend the gestalters or anything.. and the LA +1 suggestion is well and good enough, I guess.... but I really think that both of these options don't stack up so well with things that don't take the same option, and I don't want to change everything... for obvious enough reasons. I was also thinking that if you had to pay for it (in a balanced way, of coarse) you could very easily have wildly different characters without even needing to get to creative. I mean... just think of some feats that you like, and jump on them. However... with that in mind... if you really think that +1 LA can get you a feat per level, you'de probably agree that +1 for two feats is a rip off. Can you think of a more reasonable amount of feats gained (and justify it, if you would be so kind)?
nonsi 01-07-07, 05:48 PM	OK. Won't that raise the power level of my game, though? I want to keep the power level in check... and an additional feat a level seems like it would get crazy... the power level can be monitored via prerequisites alterations (BAB, minimum save bonuses, minimum skill points, class levels, etc.).
ZombieDragon 01-07-07, 06:53 PM	An extra feat every level would be more like LA+2. As the second poster said, every other level, ten total spaced over time, may be more a LA+1. You could space it further, every third level. The natural progression every character gets. That would net a total of 7 pre epic bonus feat and would space them apart so there isn't an immediate power jump. I would personally bump the start to 2nd, so a first level human fighter wouldn't get 4 feats. Then they would get these extra bonus feats on 2nd,5th,8th,11th,14,17th, and 20th.
strenoth 01-08-07, 01:36 AM	well, with some player input, I straight out modified the basics of the game set up, in relation to wealth and feats. Results not in yet, and woudl be meaningless anyway, as there's to many other variables (houserules) that effect things. But, I halved the wealth by level guidlines, and in return, the characters start with 2 feats at first level, and gain a feat every level there after. I have yet to see any one go "gee, I just don't know what to do with all these feats." Issues may come up vs flying creatures, or a few other things where equipment is needed for meleers to compete, but that means people will also want those sort of items more than to get their +1 flaming sword to be upgraded to a +3 flaming burst sword or what ever.
strenoth 01-08-07, 01:38 AM	And the reason the 2 should never be in the same world is because a Gestalt is far more powerful than a LA +2. If a Gestalt character was trully a LA +2, then you could play a level 10 Gestalt Paladin/Cleric in a caaign with a Normal level 12 Fighter, and they would be balanced. That is what Level Adjustment implies, it is saying that Gestalt = Normal +2. But as far as I can see it doesn't. Cheers. a better comparison, use partially the same class, focusing on the more powerful one. So, a gestalt level 10 cleric/paladin vs a normal level 12 cleric.
Prime361 01-08-07, 04:21 AM	wow, you guys all read the gestalt badly()that or I am up way to late), the +2 CR is so that when you put these guys say Gestalt barb/wizard (with D12/lvl, fighter BAB, I believe good fort/wil saves, and spells) casting against a monster you can adjust the monsters to higher CR to maintain a PC > Monster balance. It is in no way appropriate for balancing the gestalt/non-gestalt power difference. Truthfully gestalts are great for min/maxing with this type of build, but in a mixed gestalt/non-gestalt the former will always be overpowered. They are fun to play though and the fighter/anything combo is great for a balanced toon, since fighter is the most balanced class in the game so far.
Decinious 01-08-07, 12:36 PM	Let me have an undead with cold immunity for +1 or +2 LA, and I'll feel confident in my wizards abilities to battle any Gestalt of the same level. Fear the undead Lord of the Utterdark. Now as for the original topic if we even care anymore... The flaws in the Unearthed Arcana are a good start for gaining more feats. Now to net a feat for a flaw or some other handicap, the flaw should come into game play, ie the melee only fighter shouldn't be allowed to take the -2 on all ranged attacks. There is a flaw for -1 hp per level so 6 hp for a flaw seem reasonable. -2 stat point = flaw. The sky is the limit really you just have to balance the good with the bad. After first level you'd have to do some role playing or questing to achieve, wizards tinkering in genetics, witchdoctors, symbiots or demonic possession.
Paul Hopebringer 01-08-07, 08:02 PM	Well, I've heard nothing but grumbles all around about getting flaws... The whole consept of "flawed" doesn't fit into one of my players character concepts... Now... as long as I don't say that paying 6 hitpoints for a feat is a flaw... well... that should work, and a negative level for two, well, that sits well with me too. (as a side note... I certainly wouldn't give the *wizard* -2 to ranged, the rogue would probably be alright, but it practiacally cripples anything with a full attack bonus, because there key feature is reduced with a versitile attack mode [punishment]... It is a real flaw for a fighter... not a freebie, as far as I can see. )