Feral Druid... Is this balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Feral Druid... Is this balanced? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Koretsu
06-28-07, 03:32 AM I posted this in the Class forum, but this may be the better place to ask...

I've got a PC playing a druid, but he came to me with an interesting question - Could he give up all his spell casting ability for something else? This seemed like a strange question - Who wouldn't want to cast spells? but none the less, I wracked my brain on it, and I came up with the idea of taking the Avenging Druid in Unearthed Arcana. From there, I took away all the druid's spell casting ability, and instead gave it the barbarian's rage and rage-related upgrades. The druid looses his animal companion, and takes a -4 penalty on wild empathy checks.

I'm thinking it's balanced, because this "Feral Druid" wouldn't have the Barbarian's BAB, Hit Die, or Damage Reduction. In exchange, they have the Druid's non-spellcasting abilities, primarily Wild Shape.

So in essence, as I explained to the player, the druid looses the ability to control reality, and gains the power of.... "OMG ANGRY BEAR!"

My only question that remains is if there is something anyone would suggest to tweak the balance, or if it's good as-is?
Slayerlasse
06-28-07, 09:47 AM If he wanted to be really feral, you could tell him about the alternative druid in PH2 p. 39 called that shapeshift. if thats not feral and violent, i dont what is then......
Keenath
06-28-07, 10:23 AM Druids tend to be pretty darn powerful to start with, so even if you replace spellcasting with something less powerful than spells, you're doing well.

However, I might make a suggestion: Have you considered going the other way? Instead of taking a druid, removing spellcasting, and adding other abilities, what about taking a Barbarian, removing his rage, and giving him Wildshape instead? He'll be tougher than a standard druid in wildshape due to his naturally higher HP and BAB.

Either way -- Wildshaping Berserker or Angry Druid -- you might consider using the PHB2 Shapeshift variant (as Slayerlasse suggested).

Basically, shapeshift is a slightly less powerful, somewhat more flexible, and MUCH more mechanically simple version of Wildshaping.

First, you dont' keep track of uses; shapeshift is usable at will, any number of times per day. Second, it's a swift action to shift, so you don't worry about "do I attack or change shape?" all the time. Third, and most important, you don't replace the character's existing stats.

You get only a small number of forms, but they're generic -- at 1st level, for example, he gets "Predator" form, which grants a simple +2 bonus to Strength, +2 natural armor, a natural attack, and a basic special ability. It effectively works like a very simple template; you get four or five of these templates (over the course of 20 levels) and you can freely shift between them and your humanoid form.

"Predator" can represent any small, fast, predatory animal you want to use -- wolf, jaguar, velocioraptor -- whatever. Later you get forms that grant flight, "Slayer" form (which represents BIG predators like lions, tigers, and bears, oh my), and Forest Avenger (which is basically a treant).

This has some particular points of interest for your prospective Angry Druid. First, the animal form's stats don't replace, but add to your base stats. This is great for a character who isn't focusing on wisdom (for spellcasting) -- a high natural strength plus rage plus shapeshift could be quite high. Or if you use my suggestion of replacing rage with it, you're still getting some rage-LIKE benefits, in terms of increased strength. You'd probably need to adjust the class to make that fit, though, perhaps reducing his BAB or removing some of the other Barbarian class abilities.

The downside, of course, is that you lose the benefit of any magic items that are boosting your strength at the time -- but the Shapeshift forms tend to keep up with or exceed whatever STR bonus you'd be getting out of a Belt of Giant Strength. And you lose the benefits of any other armor, weapon, or item that you were using, though you can easily pop back to human with a swift action to regain their use.

And last, as I said before, this variant rule is WAY more mechanically simple. Applying a microtemplate means you don't have to go look up a monster in the book, recalculate its stats with the character's base HP and BAB and saves, keep track of what happens to which items, and so on. It's a very simple transformation; all you need to keep track of is the character's "naked stats", with no items or armor, and then slap the adjustments onto that. And if I were DMing, I'd totally allow Wild armor to operate with Shapeshift as well as Wildshape -- you'd keep the armor bonus and penalties while in any of your animal forms, if you chose to. (Hint: Lose the armor when you turn into a bird!)
Vaelan
06-28-07, 10:18 PM I would allow a Druid to give up spellcasting for Wildshape as written in the PHB and Good BAB. Otherwise, he is using the PHB2 variant.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Koretsu 06-28-07, 03:32 AM	I posted this in the Class forum, but this may be the better place to ask... I've got a PC playing a druid, but he came to me with an interesting question - Could he give up all his spell casting ability for something else? This seemed like a strange question - Who wouldn't want to cast spells? but none the less, I wracked my brain on it, and I came up with the idea of taking the Avenging Druid in Unearthed Arcana. From there, I took away all the druid's spell casting ability, and instead gave it the barbarian's rage and rage-related upgrades. The druid looses his animal companion, and takes a -4 penalty on wild empathy checks. I'm thinking it's balanced, because this "Feral Druid" wouldn't have the Barbarian's BAB, Hit Die, or Damage Reduction. In exchange, they have the Druid's non-spellcasting abilities, primarily Wild Shape. So in essence, as I explained to the player, the druid looses the ability to control reality, and gains the power of.... "OMG ANGRY BEAR!" My only question that remains is if there is something anyone would suggest to tweak the balance, or if it's good as-is?
Slayerlasse 06-28-07, 09:47 AM	If he wanted to be really feral, you could tell him about the alternative druid in PH2 p. 39 called that shapeshift. if thats not feral and violent, i dont what is then......
Keenath 06-28-07, 10:23 AM	Druids tend to be pretty darn powerful to start with, so even if you replace spellcasting with something less powerful than spells, you're doing well. However, I might make a suggestion: Have you considered going the other way? Instead of taking a druid, removing spellcasting, and adding other abilities, what about taking a Barbarian, removing his rage, and giving him Wildshape instead? He'll be tougher than a standard druid in wildshape due to his naturally higher HP and BAB. Either way -- Wildshaping Berserker or Angry Druid -- you might consider using the PHB2 Shapeshift variant (as Slayerlasse suggested). Basically, shapeshift is a slightly less powerful, somewhat more flexible, and MUCH more mechanically simple version of Wildshaping. First, you dont' keep track of uses; shapeshift is usable at will, any number of times per day. Second, it's a swift action to shift, so you don't worry about "do I attack or change shape?" all the time. Third, and most important, you don't replace the character's existing stats. You get only a small number of forms, but they're generic -- at 1st level, for example, he gets "Predator" form, which grants a simple +2 bonus to Strength, +2 natural armor, a natural attack, and a basic special ability. It effectively works like a very simple template; you get four or five of these templates (over the course of 20 levels) and you can freely shift between them and your humanoid form. "Predator" can represent any small, fast, predatory animal you want to use -- wolf, jaguar, velocioraptor -- whatever. Later you get forms that grant flight, "Slayer" form (which represents BIG predators like lions, tigers, and bears, oh my), and Forest Avenger (which is basically a treant). This has some particular points of interest for your prospective Angry Druid. First, the animal form's stats don't replace, but add to your base stats. This is great for a character who isn't focusing on wisdom (for spellcasting) -- a high natural strength plus rage plus shapeshift could be quite high. Or if you use my suggestion of replacing rage with it, you're still getting some rage-LIKE benefits, in terms of increased strength. You'd probably need to adjust the class to make that fit, though, perhaps reducing his BAB or removing some of the other Barbarian class abilities. The downside, of course, is that you lose the benefit of any magic items that are boosting your strength at the time -- but the Shapeshift forms tend to keep up with or exceed whatever STR bonus you'd be getting out of a Belt of Giant Strength. And you lose the benefits of any other armor, weapon, or item that you were using, though you can easily pop back to human with a swift action to regain their use. And last, as I said before, this variant rule is WAY more mechanically simple. Applying a microtemplate means you don't have to go look up a monster in the book, recalculate its stats with the character's base HP and BAB and saves, keep track of what happens to which items, and so on. It's a very simple transformation; all you need to keep track of is the character's "naked stats", with no items or armor, and then slap the adjustments onto that. And if I were DMing, I'd totally allow Wild armor to operate with Shapeshift as well as Wildshape -- you'd keep the armor bonus and penalties while in any of your animal forms, if you chose to. (Hint: Lose the armor when you turn into a bird!)
Vaelan 06-28-07, 10:18 PM	I would allow a Druid to give up spellcasting for Wildshape as written in the PHB and Good BAB. Otherwise, he is using the PHB2 variant.