| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Sylian04-28-07, 07:30 PM | Okay, there are a few things I have to say before starting. This is going to be used in a Dragonlance campaign where roleplaying is the key to fun. Combat and rules will have to take a step back. Having that in mind, I want to make skills and combat faster. Some notes. I won't be using the standard D&D classes. Every character will have a "class" tailor-made for himself. I'm not sure what to do with the combat system, but it have to be faster. Okay, skills. Many of my ideas come from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview2 The formula for determining a character's skill bonus is as follows: 1/2 character level + relevant ability modifier + 5 (if trained) + 5 (if Skill Focus) You can read more about in the article. Also, I decided to remove Use Magic Device. I want to put many skills into a wider range. Here are my ideas where to put the old skills. The new skills will also have other uses, such as Perception for smelling. Perception (Wis): Appraise, Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive Deception (Cha): Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Forgery Acrobatics (Dex): Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble Athletics (Str): Jump, Swim, Climb Sabotage (Dex): Disable Device, Open Lock, Knowledge: Architecture and engineering Wilderness Lore (Wis): Heal, Survival, Knowledge: Nature, Knowledge: Dungeoneering Stealth (Dex): Move Silently, Hide Concentration (Con): Concentration Craft (Int): If you select this skill, you can chose three Crafts to specialize in. Language (Int): Speak Language (Modified), Decipher Script Persuade (Cha): Diplomacy, Gather Information Animal Lore (Wis): Ride, Handle Animal Lore (Int): Knowledge: Religion, Knowledge: Geography, Knowledge: History, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and royalty Perform (Cha): If you select this skill, you can chose three Perform to specialize in. Profession: If you select this skill, you can chose three Profession to specialize in. Spellcraft (Int): Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft, Knowledge: The planes Sleight of Hand (Dex): Sleight of Hand, Use Rope So, what do you think? |
| Holy_Beholder04-28-07, 09:23 PM | Works for me. I use a similar system, and cut down on the amount of skill ranks that people get. |
| theotherdraxen04-28-07, 09:49 PM | I like it alot. There just aren't enough skill points to make the character you want to, especially if you're playing a warrior-type. Speak Language, though, shouldn't be represented by a skill check. That doesn't quite work, since languages are finite, and you either speak it or you don't. You can't be rolling Speak Language DC 10 for whether or not they speak Elven, especially if the check is to be repeated. Knowledge checks encompass something much larger, so a few repeated migitated facts won't hurt anything, but speaking a language needs to be a definite thing. What is your exact proposal for speak language? |
| Drachasor04-28-07, 10:36 PM | Well, I think we can divy up the uses of knowledge skills somehow. Here are all of them: Well, let's see. You can know about... magical stuff, people, natural stuff, technology, history, and creatures. At most we only need those. Arcane Lore would cover Arcana and the Planes. Also actual knowledge about the gods (from outer planar observations and such). Civilization Lore would cover people, where they live, customs, traditions, social structures (including religion and belief systems). This is how things exist now. Nature Lore would cover plants, animals, natural environments (caves), and so forth. Technology Lore would cover architecture and engineering, and related matters (honestly I have trouble justifying this as its own skills, but trouble mixing it in to any others. Thematically it seems wrong to put it in with Civilization Lore or Arcane Lore, but it also seems like a weak skill by itself. Perhaps fold it in with Disable Device and Open Lock?) Historic Lore would cover all things that have happened in the past. It includes bloodlines, wars, past civs, and so forth. Could be folded into Civilization Lore (which covers present matters), but it seems to be a little bit too different. Creature Lore covers "biology" and how to kill things. Use this to figure out weaknesses to various creatures. That takes it down from 10 to 6. We could perhaps drop creature lore and just merge it into Arcana (constructs, magical beasts, dragons, outsiders, elementals), Nature (animals, plants, oozes, aberrations, fey, giants, monsterous humanoids), and People (humanoids, undead?). That would take them down to 5 different skills. A big improvement. There would be some overlap between these skills (such as ancient creatures). You'd have to have some sort of simple rule about this. If one skill is minorly related to an overlap, then you can use it at a -5 penalty (e.g. gets rid of training, but skill focus essentially mimics this). If a skill is evenly related (e.g. ancient animals, or old magic), then you use it at its normal level. If you are trained in both evenly related skills, you make a check with your better one and gain a +5 bonus. That's slightly complicated, but only slightly. It helps make it so that 3 or 4 knowledge skills covers everything well. Oh, and I recommend using the DMG optional rule for using the relevant ability score. Technological Lore + Dex = open locks and disable device, +int and it is knowledge about engineering (for instance). Knowledges are kinda tricky though. I think you want more than just "Lore", but you don't want 10 different skills. Ideally we'd have 3 or so, imho. Best you can do, as far as I can see is: Arcane Lore (covers spellcraft too) Historic Lore (anything to do with the past -- perhaps some time relation here, like 10+ years or so?) Nature Lore Civilization Lore and Technology Lore (covers open lock and disable device). Then you only have 3 "pure" knowledges, as Arcane Lore is also spellcraft (so it has a direct class use), and Tech. Lore covers uses skills too. -Drachasor |
| Drachasor04-28-07, 10:57 PM | Deception: Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Forgery Seems like Intimidate should be elsewhere. You aren't necessarily lying with Intimidate, and you ARE lying with Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. Acrobatics: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Swim, Tumble Escape Artist has to do with getting out things. Thematically I think it has more to do with the Slight of Hand skill. Add it there (you don't even need to rename that skill). It seems like Swim and Climb should go elsewhere. But they certainly don't deserve their own skill, imho. (They just don't seem like acrobatics, per se). Sabotage: Disable Device, Open Lock As I said in my previous post, you should call this Technological Lore and throw in Knowledge(architecture and engineering). IMHO, of course. (It does make it so you need to use int for some checks and dex for others, might be a drawback). Survival: Heal, Survival Concentration: Concentration Either fold this into Spellcraft/Arcane Lore (from previous post), or give it the effects of Autohypnosis too. By itself it seems too weak, just another thing a caster MUST take. (just like a rogue MUST take hide and move silently). Craft: If you select this skill, you can chose three underskills to take. Ahh, doh, you can put in Knowledge(architecture and engineering) here if you don't want it with disable device and open lock. I don't think you need to separate it into different skills. Well, put Craft(alchemy) in with Spellcraft/Arcane Lore, imho. Language: Speak Language (Modified), Decipher Script Hmm, decipher script is a toughie. It has Perception-like things, but also is used for codes. On the other hand, seems like you should keep Speak Language as-is. Perhaps let people learn more languages somehow though (once every other level if trained, once every 4 levels if not?). Perform: If you select this skill, you can chose three underskills to take. Again, just let this be everything. No need to bother with subskills (doesn't matter for D&D). Same with Profession. Spellcraft: Knowledge: Arcana, Spellcraft Fold in Concentration, imho. Also Knowledge(planes). I could see Decipher Script going here as well. Sleight of Hand: Sleight of Hand, Use Rope Add in Escape Artist. So overall, I think Intimidate might need its own skill. It isn't lying, and it isn't persuading. You might be able to use Intimidate to gather information (with appropriate modifier on how people act towards you in the future). Thematically though intimidate is very different from lying or pursuading. I am not sure about swim and climb. I think Star Wars has Endurance (which would cover this, I think). Seems like a silly skill to have by itself though (why take it?). On the other hand, swim, jump, and climb could be one skill (endurance). I suppose you could make slightly more skills than you have now, but allow some overlap. For instance, Endurance would let you jump, climb, swim, or use survival (using constitution). On the other hand, Acrobatics would allow you to jump, climb, tumble, or balance using dexterity. With a little overlap, you also encourage people to focus on different things. Why do Endurance and Acrobatics if half the things are the same (beyond the ability score)? It's a thought anyhow. -Drachasor |
| Sylian04-29-07, 07:24 AM | Thanks for the response everyone! Speak Language, though, shouldn't be represented by a skill check. That doesn't quite work, since languages are finite, and you either speak it or you don't. You can't be rolling Speak Language DC 10 for whether or not they speak Elven, especially if the check is to be repeated. Knowledge checks encompass something much larger, so a few repeated migitated facts won't hurt anything, but speaking a language needs to be a definite thing. That's not true at all. You don't either speak or don't speak a language in real life, so I think it's silly to spend 2 skill points and master a language. My thoughts are something like this: You have a set on languages you are very skilled at. You don't need to roll for those. But if you want to speak or understand a language you don't know but have some experience in (or it's similar to a language you know), you can roll. Say that Ergothian is similar to Solamnic. You are a Solamnic, so you might understand some Ergothian. Or maybe you've fought goblins. You've probably picked up some of their words. In the long run, a level 20 character will know much more languages than a level 1 character, even if untrained. That makes sense. To get a real life perspective: I'm a Swede. The languages I know are Swedish and English, and a little German. Swedish and English I could probably use without a roll, but for German I would have to roll, with a bonus since I've trained in it. Also, Swedish is kinda similar to Norweigan. I would get a check to see if I would understand what they are saying, with a bonus because it's similar. Danish is a little harder, so I wouldn't get a bonus as big. If it instead was a language which I have no experience with and it's not close to any language I speak, I probably wouldn't get a check at all. Chinese, for example. In the D&D world, most characters won't understand a word Abyssal. Drachasor, interesting approach. Yeah, less Knowledge should be better. What about putting Knowledge: Architecture and engineering in Craft? Dungeoneering could go into Nature. Geograpgy could merge with History, and Nobility and royalty with Local. Planes with Spellcraft and now there are only four pure Lore skills. Hmm. Nature could go into Survival. That would make it three Lore skills. Now we could just make Lore one skill. Religion Geography Local Nobility and royalty History So Lore is those five skills, plus maybe some more. Okay, seems fair to give all those in one skill. Seems like Intimidate should be elsewhere. You aren't necessarily lying with Intimidate, and you ARE lying with Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. I do think Intimidate should be there. The feat persuasive gives +2 to Intimidate and Bluff, stating: "You have a way with words and body language." Using your body language to scare the enemy does seem like lying. It's the same spirit as bluff. "Look, you don't want to die, do you? You don't want me to cut your arms off while slowly torturing you, do you?" If your a good bluffer, the chance to intimidate someone is much bigger than if you weren't. Someone who can't lie can't use intimidate effectivly. Sure, they could threaten to kill them, but that's not what being trained in intimidate is about. It's about psychology, using their mind and imagination against them. A good lier is better with intimidate than a bad lier. You don't have to lie when intimidating, but the training to make people believe you will help you in intimidate. 'couse that's what intimidate is, making them believe you. Escape Artist has to do with getting out things. Thematically I think it has more to do with the Slight of Hand skill. Add it there (you don't even need to rename that skill). Good point. Yeah, it seem more logical than Acrobatics, maybe. Though Sleight of Hand is hand dexterity, while Escape Artist is more like using the whole body. It seems like Swim and Climb should go elsewhere. But they certainly don't deserve their own skill, imho. (They just don't seem like acrobatics, per se). Yeah, I thought about that. Maybe I should make Swim, Climb and Jump a different skill called Athletics? Either fold this into Spellcraft/Arcane Lore (from previous post), or give it the effects of Autohypnosis too. By itself it seems too weak, just another thing a caster MUST take. (just like a rogue MUST take hide and move silently). In this age, the only magic avaible for the players is wizardry. With their high intelligence, they will probably have enough skill points anyway. Well, they could use mystic magic or wild magic if they are a race with inborn magic. Anyway, I don't think the study of magic necessary means that you are able to concentrate well. Maybe it does. I'll consider it. Again, just let this be everything. No need to bother with subskills (doesn't matter for D&D). Same with Profession. With subskills, I mean for example Proffession: Sailer or Perform: Dance. One chosing to specialize in the skill gets the bonus in three subskills, not all subskills. So you could select, say, Dance, Sing and Wind instruments. |
| Arcade04-29-07, 08:08 AM | The idea is good and you can expect that there's a good chance of this showing up in future versions. I was considering this myself as well. A few things coming the article: - no other modifiers can affect the skill modifier - initiative is now a skill - talents and feats allow you to use your skills in new ways (perhaps like skill tricks in Complete Scoundrel?) - you can further specialize by having new abilities which let you take rerolls, take 10, or use one skill's modifier in a another check. For instance, don't give dwarves +2 on crafting, but let them have a reroll. Let a cloak of elvenkind give you take 10 on stealth checks, etc. And if they have boots and cloaks of elvenkind, they can take 15. Let barbarians use strength instead of CHA on Deception checks when intimidating. These are going to be the features that really make this system work and allow characters to specialize. |
| Sylian04-29-07, 08:42 AM | Arcade, I'm not sure. The feats that give bonuses to skills (except Skill focus) are gone, and so are Skill synergi. I'm also going to change all the races. I don't think I like the reroll idea, as it's very powerful and slows the game down abit. Also, I don't know about making Initiative a skill. Maybe that's a good skill, maybe it isn't. It does make sense that a level 20 character has a better initiative than a level 1. Maybe just make it level check+dex? I don't know what talents are. Are they like feats? |
| Arcade04-29-07, 11:43 AM | Well, I was just throwing out other ideas from the Star Wars Saga, but you have to consider that characters are a little more generic now since there is a smaller list of skills. Also, the Star Wars Saga plans on giving out more feats so that you can take a skill focus or two, take some special feats to augment the use of your skills, and still take your normal list of feats. Rerolls might seem overly powerful, but they're not that bad. Depending on your chance of success, a reroll is worth anywhere from a +1 to a +5 bonus (+1 if your chance of success is really high or really low and +5 if you have a 50/50 chance). On average, you could say a reroll is worth a +2 or +3 bonus. It is definitely in the realm of giving to an elven cloak or any other skill boosting item, like a ring of climbing. And it doesn't slow the game down if you throw both dice at the same time. I'm not worried about making initiative a skill, just iterating what the Saga article mentioned. As you gain more experience though, you could easily see that you're going to react to events faster. When you see a group of orcs run up, your mind has prepackaged responses so you don't freeze up and take time decidingin what to do. You have an instant reaction to it instead. Improved Initiative becomes skill focus initiative and that's about it. But leaving it the way it is works with me. Talents are a concept from other d20 games and are really just like feats or class abilities. In general though, the idea is that classes and races should have ways to represent they have enhanced proficiency in certain areas. Rerolls and take 10 are just certain methods to do this. |
| Sylvaroth04-29-07, 11:44 AM | What about this: Acrobatics (Dex) (Balance, Escape Artist, Jump and Tumble) Deception (Cha) (Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery) Disable Device (Dex) (Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight Of Hand, and Use Rope) Endurance (Con) (Climb, Concentration, Ride, and Swim) Initiative (Dex) Knowledge (Int) (Appraise, Craft, Knowledge Skills, Heal, Spellcraft, Survival, and Use Magic Device) Language (Int) (Decipher Script and Speak Language) Perception (Wis) (Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot) Persuasion (Cha) (Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform) Stealth (Dex) (Hide, Move Silently) |
| Sylian04-29-07, 12:34 PM | Sylvaroth, not quite what I had in mind. Thanks anyway. Arcade, rerolling has the disadvantage of not making the max score higher. However, you could roll a three on the first roll and a fifthteen on the second. On avarage it might turn out well, but since it seldom come up avarage, it's a powerful ability. The thing with making Initiative a skill is that almost everyone would take it. Hmm. HD+Dex sounds good to me. A level 20 fighter will react faster than a level 2 commoner. That's logical. Improved Initiative could give a +6 bonus, giving them a nice bonus to initiative. |
| Arcade04-29-07, 01:36 PM | Do you want to make initiative HD or level? Because monsters have high HD compared to their character opponents, which could give them a big boost. Maybe make it 1/2 HD or level instead to keep it consistent and to prevent too much discrepancy. Or go back to the current system. I don't think not making the max score higher is a disadvantage of rerolls. It's just giving different bonuses different characteristics. I disagree with your analysis of rerolling. Changing a 3 into a 15 is not the issue in a reroll. The only real issue is your chance of success. That 3 into a 15 might seem great if you needed a 15 to succeed. What if your first roll was a 14 and you needed a 15 to succeed. Now you would wish that you wouldn't be using rerolls and had nice big bonuses instead. Your reroll only has a small chance of helping you out now. And if you roll two dice at once, the idea of reroll is replaced with the concept of dice pool and you don't have a first and second dice. Instead of thinking reroll and one shot chances, the approach should be, what are my odds of success on this roll. Roll Normally Reroll chance Required of success 1 1 2 0.9975 3 0.99 4 0.9775 5 0.96 6 0.9375 7 0.91 8 0.8775 9 0.84 10 0.7975 11 0.75 12 0.6975 13 0.64 14 0.5775 15 0.51 16 0.4375 17 0.36 18 0.2775 19 0.19 20 0.0975 From the chart, you can see what the benefits of the reroll is before you start rolling. |
| Glak04-29-07, 02:04 PM | I have been working on sort of the same thing. My combinations and rules are a little different due to the campaign setting. Acrobatics (Dex) tumble, balance Athletics (Str) sprint, climb, jump, swim Concentration (Con) concentration, may have something to do with my martial arts system Culture, pick one: Kanch/Vost/Malrese/Enu (Int) speak language*, decipher script, history, knowledge local, law, religion, geography, etc... Engineering (Int) architecture, engineering, disable device, metalurgy, open locks, math, craft Medicine (Wis) heal, alchemy Natural Lore (Wis) agriculture, ride, wilderness lore, survival, astronomy Perception (Wis) search, spot, listen, sense motive Persuasion (Cha) bluff, diplomacy, intimidation, gather information, leadership, perform Regeneration (Con) something to do with healing rate, not sure exactly what yet Sleight of Hand (Dex) sleight of hand, escape artist Stealth (Dex) hide, move silently Wizardry (Int) spellcraft, knowledge arcana *speak language normally is DC 15 or a little lower, and you can take 10. So if you are trained you don't need to make checks. Everyone would automatically have their own culture mastered. Maybe I will have three levels: untrained (+0), skilled (+3), and master (+6) ratings for skills. I think about 4+Int skill points to start off would be good. So if you have no bonus you could know 4 skills or master 2. With an int bonus you will probably master a few skills and know some others. I could change it to +0/+3/+5 to make mastering a skill less desirable but still good. I am thinking of going to three scores, in that case the skills by score would be: Strength: Athletics, Concentration, Regeneration Dexterity: Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Stealth Intelligence: Culture, Engineering, Medicine, Natural Lore, Perception, Persuasion, Wizardry |
| Sylian04-29-07, 02:56 PM | Arcade, yeah, maybe you are right. I will consider it. I'm considering to make all the rolls before the game starts, put them in a Excel document and just go down for the characters, each character having a column for rolls. Or something. We'll be playing online, so waiting for someone to roll can take some time. I don't really know about Initiative. Maybe make it full for "class levels" and half for HD? That way monsters wouldn't have such a big advantage, and skilled characters would be a little faster. I'm probably gonna use rolled initiative beforehand, so I don't have to wait for them when combat starts. Do you think that is a good idea? That way it would feel less as a game and more like story-telling and roleplaying, and we'll save time. |
| Khementari04-29-07, 02:59 PM | Speak Language, though, shouldn't be represented by a skill check. That doesn't quite work, since languages are finite, and you either speak it or you don't. You can't be rolling Speak Language DC 10 for whether or not they speak Elven, especially if the check is to be repeated. What is your exact proposal for speak language? I use Language as a skill in my game. I got rid of ranks years ago but after the saga previews came out I was startled with how similar it was to what I'm using, so for simplicity I adopted some of it. Language as an untrained skill (which in Saga, anyone can try any skill untrained)gives you the chance to roll d20 + ability mod + half you level. For untrained checks I say if successful you can reconize what language it is or maybe what it's related to. If I hear someone speaking german I've got a pretty decent shot at recognizing it. If I see something written in chinese I have a good shot at knowing that as well. This equates to something like you can't get a result higher than DC15(or 10 - whatever you feel is appropriate). When you have training in a language then in general you don't need to make checks. Maybe a foreigner in the midst of battle. Or when you try to forge a document. Yes, forgery is an attempt at using language in my game. Even secret messages fit in there(the old "thieves cant" or whatever lingo you want to call it.) A brief version of my skills... Acrobatics Balance (Feat +5) Escape (Feat +5) Tumble (Feat +5) Athletics Climb (Feat +5) Jump (Feat +5) Running (Feat +5) Swim (Feat +5) Deception Bluff (Feat +5) Disguise (Feat +5) Devices Device (Feat +5) Locks (Trained Only; Feat +5) Magic device (Trained Only) Handle Animal Ride (Feat +5, specific creature) Teach (Feat +5, specific creature) Perception Listen (Feat +5) Sense Motive (Feat +5) Spot (Feat +5) Track (Trained Only, Feat +5) Perform Act (Feat +5) Dance (Feat +5) Music (Feat +5) Oratory (Feat +5) Trickery (Feat +5) Persuasion Diplomacy (Feat +5) Gather info (Feat +5) Intimidate (Feat +5) Stealth Hide (Feat +5) Sneak (Feat +5) Survival Gather Food (Feat +5) Shelter (Feat +5) Region (Feat +5) Craft Untrained, no results over 10. Specific (Trained +5), (Feat +5) Weaponcraft Armorcraft ... Lore Untrained, no results over 10. Specific (Trained +5). (Feat +5) Region Faith Heritage Creature Sorcery ... Language Untrained, no results over 10. Specific (Trained +5). (Feat +5) ... Profession Specific (Trained +5), (Feat +5) Healer Merchant Sailor ... |
| Arcade04-29-07, 04:14 PM | Arcade, yeah, maybe you are right. I will consider it. I'm considering to make all the rolls before the game starts, put them in a Excel document and just go down for the characters, each character having a column for rolls. Or something. We'll be playing online, so waiting for someone to roll can take some time. I don't really know about Initiative. Maybe make it full for "class levels" and half for HD? That way monsters wouldn't have such a big advantage, and skilled characters would be a little faster. I'm probably gonna use rolled initiative beforehand, so I don't have to wait for them when combat starts. Do you think that is a good idea? That way it would feel less as a game and more like story-telling and roleplaying, and we'll save time. Using spreadsheets for online play is a personal call. I know there are lots of DM's who use it, so that's really a matter of taste. Picking up a dice, rolling it, and analysing the result is a lengthy process. it doesn't seem like much, but when you play online board games and see how fast games can be played when you don't have to manipulate pieces and dice by hand, you realize what a savings it is. As for initiative, I think that solution works out about right, so I would go with that. Of course, you can always leave initiative the way it is. Who knows, there might be a reason related to their combat system they made it that way. I'm a little curious to look at the system next month and see how they implement their ideas on a lot of issues. |
| Sylian04-30-07, 08:36 AM | I've changed my first post. What do you think of the changes? |
| Ra-Tiel04-30-07, 02:56 PM | I think it looks quite good. :) Mind if I borrow it for my own setting? :D However, I have adapted the list a little for my own setting's mechanical details: Acrobatics (Dex): Balance, Escape Artist, Tumble. Analyze (Int): Appraise, Sense Motive. Animal Lore (Wis): Ride, Handle Animal. Athletics (Str): Jump, Swim, Climb. Close Combat (Str): Melee Weapons, Unarmed Combat, Shields. Concentration (Con): Concentration. Craft (Int): If you select this skill, you can chose three Crafts to specialize in. Deception (Cha): Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Forgery. Knowledge (Int): If you select this skill, you can chose three Knowledges to specialize in. Language (Int): Speak Language (Modified), Decipher Script. Perception (Wis): Spot, Listen, Search. Perform (Cha): If you select this skill, you can chose three Performs to specialize in. Persuade (Cha): Diplomacy, Gather Information. Profession (Wis): If you select this skill, you can chose three Professions to specialize in. Ranged Combat (Dex): Bows, Slings, Thrown. Resist (variable): Fortitude, Reflexes, Willpower. Sabotage (Dex): Disable Device, Open Lock. Sleight of Hand (Dex): Sleight of Hand, Use Rope. Stealth (Dex): Move Silently, Hide. Weaving (Int): Weavecraft, Weavecasting. Wilderness Lore (Wis): Heal, Survival. |
| Arcade04-30-07, 03:14 PM | It is looking pretty good. Perception looks to include a lot- almost too much. Spinning appraise and sense motive off seems like a good plan. Or putting sense motive in the diplomacy group is good as well. Adding appraise into the craft skill could even work. So, that's all said and done ... how are you handling other issues? Like each class's skill points, int bonus, multiclassing, class skills, racial bonuses, etc. |
| Drachasor04-30-07, 03:26 PM | If you make initiative a skill, everyone will not take it. Taking it means you get a +5 bonus. That's just like Improved Initiative. Does everyone take that? No. Your initiative still improves as you gain levels, just like any untrained skill. Oh, you could move intimidate into Pursuade. It is about getting someone to agree with your point of view (under duress). That's more like diplomacy than getting them to believe a lie (bluffing). I think you might need to adjust how many skills someone starts with. With so many fewer skills, I am not the current stuff (like 8+int for a rogue) make as much sense anymore. I don't know how the new SW Saga system does it though, the preview doesn't seem to say. The Wookie Character seems to have 4 trained skills, with an intelligence of 8. So maybe they got rid of the intelligence bonus/penalty?* If so, intelligence is a much weaker statistic -- it would basically be to the point that intelligence, wisdom, and charisma should just be rolled into one statistic at that point. Since beyond saves they'd only exist to affect skill modifiers (and spellcasting stats, but that's class-based). -Drachasor *Or maybe just the penalty. It's hard to say. |
| Ra-Tiel04-30-07, 03:38 PM | It is looking pretty good. Perception looks to include a lot- almost too much. Spinning appraise and sense motive off seems like a good plan. Or putting sense motive in the diplomacy group is good as well. Adding appraise into the craft skill could even work. So, that's all said and done ... how are you handling other issues? Like each class's skill points, int bonus, multiclassing, class skills, racial bonuses, etc. Basically, I'm doing away with class skills and class based skill points. I'm breaking down everything onto skills (perhaps you've already noticed) and therefore had to make some changes... Skill rankings. There are three rankings (layman, expert, master) and each determines the max ranks a character can have in a certain skill. All skills are layman ranking at first, then each character gets to select 7 skills on expert ranking and 3 skills on master ranking. Skill points. I give every character a fixed amount of skill points per level (8, x4 at first level). To provide a reason not to make Int a dump stat, I do include the Int mod but after multiplying. So a character with an Int mod of +2 would have at first level (8x4)+2 = 34 skill points. Abilities. Rather as a side effect, I'm doing away with the distinction of "ability score" and "ability modifer". In earlier versions of my setting I had a "primary" and a "secondary" modifier enhanching different skills and rolls. However, this turned out to be the rather cumbersome alternative to the standard mechanic (which is "basically all odd scores are useless") and therefore I scraped them alltogether. --------- Edit --------- @Drachasor: as far as I can tell, SWS did away with skill points completely, and just sets every skill at 1/2 character level + ability mod [+5 if skill focus, +5 if trained]. I'm also highly unsatisfied with that, because even if that simplifies skills as a whole, it takes away character diversity. So will (baring additional feats) eg all Jedi be able to fly starships equally well, just as all nobles will be able to intimidate equally well, or all soldiers will be able to sing equally well. I really cannot imagine how they handled the "Use the Force" skill, but I guess with something messy like "you can only use this skill if you have feat X"... :shifty: |
| Drachasor04-30-07, 03:51 PM | @Drachasor: as far as I can tell, SWS did away with skill points completely, and just sets every skill at 1/2 character level + ability mod [+5 if skill focus, +5 if trained]. I'm also highly unsatisfied with that, because even if that simplifies skills as a whole, it takes away character diversity. So will (baring additional feats) eg all Jedi be able to fly starships equally well, just as all nobles will be able to intimidate equally well, or all soldiers will be able to sing equally well. I really cannot imagine how they handled the "Use the Force" skill, but I guess with something messy like "you can only use this skill if you have feat X"... :shifty: You still have to choose your trained skills. That's one way two Jedi differ. I imagine each class has a list of skills you can choose to have a trained, but you can only select a subset of those to have trained. Perhaps though they are getting rid of class skills altogether, and you just have a different number of trained skills depending on your class (and you pick from the list of all skills). Obviously for D&D such a system would have to change UMD, I think. -Drachasor |
| Sylian04-30-07, 07:59 PM | It is looking pretty good. Perception looks to include a lot- almost too much. Spinning appraise and sense motive off seems like a good plan. Or putting sense motive in the diplomacy group is good as well. Adding appraise into the craft skill could even work. So, that's all said and done ... how are you handling other issues? Like each class's skill points, int bonus, multiclassing, class skills, racial bonuses, etc. Appraise is almost never used, at least in my campaigns. Perception is noticing stuff, details, being aware. Appraise is finding the flaws and details of items to determinate their value and whether they are fake or not. Sense motive is reading the body language and tone. Again it's being aware. I'm not using sense motive much either, I usualy let the players decide whether they believe the person or not. Maybe I should use it when the bluffer rolled really poorly. The trained status is instead of the class skills. Under normal D&D, the rogue would get 8 skills+int. However, I use some houserules. PC don't get classes, they get levels where they get abilities that represents their character. I'm not sure if you understand, but let's just say that they don't multiclass. Ra-Tiel, I don't mind. Hey, I'm even gonna let you get away with not writing me credits. ;) |
| Khementari04-30-07, 08:24 PM | Appraise is not a worthy skill. The application of appraising something is useful. Profession: Merchant - appraisal of things on the market seems a good fit and makes the profession have some use. Craft: (insert type here) - I'm good at making (weapons) therefore I have some ability to appraise them. Lore(Knowledge or whatever you like to call it): (your home region) - I live in the Kingdom of..., so I have a pretty good idea what common items cost and maybe a better idea about items specific to that area. |
| Ra-Tiel04-30-07, 09:19 PM | Appraise is almost never used, at least in my campaigns. Perception is noticing stuff, details, being aware. Appraise is finding the flaws and details of items to determinate their value and whether they are fake or not. Sense motive is reading the body language and tone. Again it's being aware. I'm not using sense motive much either, I usualy let the players decide whether they believe the person or not. Maybe I should use it when the bluffer rolled really poorly. True. However, my point of view was that both skills are used to find out "the truth behind" something, and are used to determine the truthfulness of an item or person. I see sense motive not as that 6th sense thing, but as noticing the sweat perls on the lying merchant's forehead, or hearing the Freudian slip in your guide's way description, or realizing that the rescued princess's story has logical flaws in the timeline, or something like that. [...] Ra-Tiel, I don't mind. Hey, I'm even gonna let you get away with not writing me credits. ;) Thanks. :D However, you'll get your line on my credits page. ;) Appraise is not a worthy skill. The application of appraising something is useful. Profession: Merchant - appraisal of things on the market seems a good fit and makes the profession have some use. Craft: (insert type here) - I'm good at making (weapons) therefore I have some ability to appraise them. Lore(Knowledge or whatever you like to call it): (your home region) - I live in the Kingdom of..., so I have a pretty good idea what common items cost and maybe a better idea about items specific to that area. Makes perfect sense. But where would you put items like a very rare and exotic spice? Or a magical item over one millenium of age, long before "freedom" and "civilization" returned to your world? |
| Khementari04-30-07, 09:33 PM | Makes perfect sense. But where would you put items like a very rare and exotic spice? Or a magical item over one millenium of age, long before "freedom" and "civilization" returned to your world? Someone with Profession: Merchant could get a roll on a rare spice for sure--someone with a skill focus feat in...say, spice trade or (the far away region where said spice comes from) would be applicable. If something returns to the world that existed before civilization then no PC should be able to appraise it. Maybe a Lore: Arcana (Sorcery in my game) would let you know it's priceless(unappraisable). After you uncover a few dozen items from a time/world other then your own maybe then you can take a skill focus feat in "Obscure magical artifacts". I would say to appraise something like that you would need otherworldly assistance. i.e. let the demon you summon and bind roll a check to appraise it. Maybe he'll tell you the truth... The start of a grand adventure. |
| Sylian04-30-07, 09:34 PM | I see sense motive not as that 6th sense thing, but as noticing the sweat perls on the lying merchant's forehead, or hearing the Freudian slip in your guide's way description, or realizing that the rescued princess's story has logical flaws in the timeline, or something like that. Noticing the sweat pearls and hearing the slip is Perception, isn't it? Anyway, the skill is seldom used. I agree that Perception is a good skill, but it's not that great, in the end. None of the skills are, really. Being perceptive is good, but will only take you that far. Magic trumps most skills. Spiders climb or Fly, and the Jump and Climb skills are worthless. Invisibility and Sneak is less valuagbe. Disguise self, Charm person, Suggestion etc. Since I feel that skills are weak, then I decided to make them easier to get access to. With this system, you don't get to specialize as much, but you'll get a lot more versatile. |
| theotherdraxen04-30-07, 09:57 PM | Hm...good fix up there. As a note, I feel there should be no more than 18 skills, so that a very heavily optimized character could potentially reach the ability to profess in every skill (but the vast majority won't). You've done a good job. However, there are a couple of things I don't like. When I make my diplomancer warlord general, I like the idea of having a high sense motive, but not in anything else that Perception has to offer. When I make a scout, perception is perfect, but sense motive doesn't seem to fit what I imagine. I think that, character concept wise, it doesn't make sense to put sense motive into Perception, even if it logically does make sense. Same goes for intimidate: I don't think that lying and scaring should be tied together. I would be fine if both of these skills were added to Persuade, but that might not fit other concepts. Autohypnosis could be added to concentration as the "trained only" uses. Also, any place for Martial Lore? |
| Khementari04-30-07, 10:07 PM | When I make my diplomancer warlord general, I like the idea of having a high sense motive, but not in anything else that Perception has to offer. When I make a scout, perception is perfect, but sense motive doesn't seem to fit what I imagine. I think that, character concept wise, it doesn't make sense to put sense motive into Perception, even if it logically does make sense. Same goes for intimidate: I don't think that lying and scaring should be tied together. I would be fine if both of these skills were added to Persuade, but that might not fit other concepts. Autohypnosis could be added to concentration as the "trained only" uses. Also, any place for Martial Lore? Your warlord could very well have Perception trained but his bread and butter skill is sense motive so you take a skill focus feat in it. I'm with you on Intimidate--it's part of Persuasion in my skill list a few posts upstairs. Concentration has no place in my game so I don't have it. And of course martial lore is important, like this-- Lore: Martial. As to how it can be applied in game...you tell me! Heh! |
| Ra-Tiel04-30-07, 10:17 PM | Someone with Profession: Merchant could get a roll on a rare spice for sure--someone with a skill focus feat in...say, spice trade or (the far away region where said spice comes from) would be applicable. If something returns to the world that existed before civilization then no PC should be able to appraise it. Maybe a Lore: Arcana (Sorcery in my game) would let you know it's priceless(unappraisable). After you uncover a few dozen items from a time/world other then your own maybe then you can take a skill focus feat in "Obscure magical artifacts". I would say to appraise something like that you would need otherworldly assistance. i.e. let the demon you summon and bind roll a check to appraise it. Maybe he'll tell you the truth... The start of a grand adventure. Well... you got a point. ;) But consider this: when you would write the skills down anew, you'd basically have to put the whole "Appraise" text into the entries for Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, bloating these sections. I'm probably going to do that anyways now, but just so that I have something to rant about. :P Noticing the sweat pearls and hearing the slip is Perception, isn't it? Anyway, the skill is seldom used. I agree that Perception is a good skill, but it's not that great, in the end. None of the skills are, really. Being perceptive is good, but will only take you that far. Magic trumps most skills. Spiders climb or Fly, and the Jump and Climb skills are worthless. Invisibility and Sneak is less valuagbe. Disguise self, Charm person, Suggestion etc. <smartass> But wouldn't seeing the fine dust fragments in a diamond, or noticing that the statue is just thinly coated with gold and not massively gold also be Perception? </smartass> :P :D Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree with the second part of your paragraph, that magic all too easily can replace skills. That's also something I'm seriously addressing in my setting. ;) Since I feel that skills are weak, then I decided to make them easier to get access to. With this system, you don't get to specialize as much, but you'll get a lot more versatile. And there's nothing wrong with that. Other systems like WoD work pretty well with an easy and straight-forward skill system, so I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be possible with DnD. |
| Khementari04-30-07, 11:59 PM | Well... you got a point. ;) But consider this: when you would write the skills down anew, you'd basically have to put the whole "Appraise" text into the entries for Craft, Knowledge, and Profession, bloating these sections. I'm probably going to do that anyways now, but just so that I have something to rant about. :P Well, I've always found the appraisal rules a bit cumbersome. A snippet about the appraisal application and a DC is really all you need. Sure you could include a bunch of dice rolls to determine what percent the estimate is off by, but in my experience it's a much better use of time to just let a number pop into your head and tell the player that's what they think it's worth. I cut down on skill text as much as I can in my rewrites. Anyways, I wholeheartedly agree with the second part of your paragraph, that magic all too easily can replace skills. That's also something I'm seriously addressing in my setting. ;) This is something that has always bothered me. I read an article Monte Cook wrote about it, in reference to his AE setting and I really like his solution. He wrote all new spells. The spells that are similar to core spells, such as spiderclimb, give a bonus to use the skill instead of completely supplanting it. Of course, rewriting the entire spell chapter for your own setting is a task that very few people would consider. |
| Drachasor05-01-07, 12:31 AM | Here's a question: How do multi-class characters determine their trained skills? This is tricky, because it has to address the concern that someone might just take a level of Rogue to add 6+ trained skills (nearly maxing their trained skills). I know SW Saga rules seem to ranged from 2 to 5 trained skills, +int bonus. Depending on class. It hasn't been revealed how they do multiclassing, or how they handle increased intelligence later on. UA has something that might work here with some modification: If your new class grants an equal or lower number of skills, you can choose one skill from your new class's list to add to the skills you know as a class skill. You immediately gain the new skill at the maximum possible tank. If your new class grants you up to four more skills than your best previous class, you may choose two skills from your new class's list to add to the skills you know as class skills. You immediately gain the two new skills at the maximum possible rank. If your new class grants you five or more skills over and above your best class, you may choose three skills from your new class's list to add to the skills you know as class skills. You immediately gain the three new skills at the maximum possible rank. Perform this operation every time you gain 1st level in a new class. This system reflects the idea that by multiclassing, you learn more abilities and, in particular, skills. Most characters do end up with higher numbers of skills and ranks if they multiclass under this variant system, but they still have fewer skill choices. You might want to allow someone to switch a trained skill when multiclassing as well. Let's say skills change to the following: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer: 2 + int trained skills Bard, Druid, Barbarian, Ranger: 4 + int trained skills Rogue: 5 + int trained skills If you multi-class into a new class that grants 2 or more trained skills than your current number of trained skills from classes, you gain the difference - 1 in new trained skill. (e.g. Fighter -> Bard gains 1 trained skill. Fighter -> Rogue gains 2 trained skills, Fighter/Bard -> Rogue gains 1 trained skill, since Fighter/Bard has 3 from classes). Additionally, you can spend 1 feat to make any skill a trained skill. Hmm, Barbarians should be toned down to 2 or 3 trained skills with this system. Some others might need modifications. To encourage choices at 1st level, you might want to consider the 1st level max hit point system in SAGA. That gives you 3*(MAX HD) + Con at first level (I believe). So a 1st level Fighter would have 30 + Con hit points. That way you have more reason to take a hardier class that gets fewer skills (again, Barbarians would need to be adjusted). Additionally, whenever you gain a skill from multiclassing, you can change switch a trained skill. You choose a skill that is a class skill for one of your previous classes, make that untrained, then make one skill from the new class a trained skill. (Or just allow PHB2 retraining rules to switch trained skills). Lastly, when you intelligence bonus increases, you gain a new trained skill. Enhancement bonuses do not affect this. -Drachasor |
| Khementari05-01-07, 11:48 AM | In my game everyone gets the same amount of skills. 2 lore skills 2 language skills 2 skills selected from class list and 1 free choice I don't give free trained skills for Int (Yes, I realize I'm going against the grain on this but intelligent people gain a bonus to using skills that deal with intelligence--because I have a +3 modifier to Int should not allow me to gain training in Athletics, Acrobatics, and Handle Animal...). People who like to have a lot a trained skills can buy more with feats. I'm not running srd D&D. If you want to multiclass then you buy one of the class skills for your new class when you level. If you already have all the class skills then you have to take a skill focus feat in one of the class skills. As far as hit points are concerned I don't use the Saga system for that. |
| Drachasor05-01-07, 12:25 PM | I don't give free trained skills for Int (Yes, I realize I'm going against the grain on this but intelligent people gain a bonus to using skills that deal with intelligence--because I have a +3 modifier to Int should not allow me to gain training in Athletics, Acrobatics, and Handle Animal...). People who like to have a lot a trained skills can buy more with feats. . At that point why even make a distinguishment between intellignce, wisdom, and charisma? You now have 2 mental stats that are doing almost nothing. Wisdom is the only one that has any effect outside of skills and some classes. Seems kinda excessive. -Drachasor |
| Khementari05-01-07, 04:53 PM | Like I stated, I don't run an srd game. Pretty much everything is custom so you will have to just take the leap of faith to believe that I have gone out of my way to make it so ability scores have exactly the value they need. Calling something excessive when the truth is you don't have any understanding of it, nor do you have enough information to make such a judgement shows specifically, how excessive you are. |
| Drachasor05-01-07, 05:08 PM | Like I stated, I don't run an srd game. Pretty much everything is custom so you will have to just take the leap of faith to believe that I have gone out of my way to make it so ability scores have exactly the value they need. Calling something excessive when the truth is you don't have any understanding of it, nor do you have enough information to make such a judgement shows specifically, how excessive you are. Calm down man. I said "it seems kinda excessive." I pointed out WHY I thought so. You didn't say you had done anything to make sure each stat was still useful. All you said was that you made it so intelligence doesn't affect the number of skills you have. Given that Sylian is adjusting the skill system, the usefulness of intelligence is something he needs to bear in mind. Obviously if he only did that intelligence change, it would be a bad idea. Now maybe your changes to how ability scores work are too much to go over here. That's certainly possible. If that's the case though, you need to remember to keep in mind how partial implementations of your system might hurt the game. All I did was point one out, and pointed to a possible way to resolve the problem. -Drachasor |
| Khementari05-01-07, 09:58 PM | Hehe, it's all good man. I love talking about changing the system so I do what I can to stir up the pot. |