Fighter - nerf low level, buff high levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fighter - nerf low level, buff high levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zephyrTR
08-02-07, 04:29 PM 01 Combat Reflexes
02 Feat
03
04 Feat
05
06 TRAIN
07
08 Feat
09 TRAIN
10 Feat
11 UNFLANKABLE
12 TRAIN
13
14 Feat
15 TRAIN
16 Feat
17
18 TRAIN
19
20 Feat, TRAIN

TRAIN: Train has replaced two feats on the board and filled in two slots that are normally empty. Consider them super-feats that only fighters get. They're usable based off your modifier

Crush (STR/encounter) - full round action: 2x damage (3x damage)

Counter (DEX/encounter) - If opponent attacks and misses, attack once at highest BAB, requires AoO (+2 threat)

Endure (CON/day) - Replace will or ref save with a fort save instead (usable 2x CON mod per day)

Parry (INT/encounter) - replace AC with an attack roll to avoid damage from a hit, requires AoO (add int to roll, double int if nothing in off hand)

Focus (WIS/encounter) - add WIS mod to hit (2x WIS mod to hit)

Gamble (CHA/day) - redo any roll, must accept new results (choose best of the two)
Rustmonster
08-02-07, 04:40 PM I would stay away from "per encounter". Those things are stupid.

"Oh, today we fought 10 kobolds in one group, and so I could use my ability 2 times. But yesterday we had 10 fights with a lone kobold, so I got to use it 20 times!"

Illogical to the max.
zephyrTR
08-02-07, 04:47 PM i'd say that's the DMs fault hahaha.

But seriously - look at it this way - your body bounces back (to an extent) after its been given a rest no matter how long it is.

Try lifting 80lbs up and down fifty times without letting the weight touch the floor.
then try it in intervals of 10.

The latter is phenomenally easier - hence 'per encounter'. Anyway I have my pallies smiting per encounter already. It's only fair.
TheScapegoat
08-02-07, 07:34 PM The Per Encounter can be accountable to the fact that the Fighters opponent learns a bit about how the fighter attacks. Therefor he is unable to find a moment where these abilities work through an opponents attack/defense because the opponent doesn't fall for them anymore.
Rustmonster
08-02-07, 10:23 PM The Per Encounter can be accountable to the fact that the Fighters opponent learns a bit about how the fighter attacks. Therefor he is unable to find a moment where these abilities work through an opponents attack/defense because the opponent doesn't fall for them anymore.

But what if, say, you had 4 uses of somethign per encounter. You use two on the single enemy in combat. Another one JOINS the battle, and hasn't seen or heard the fight. Whit what you suggest, wouldn't you be able to use your ability on the new enemy 4 times, as he hasn't "learned" about it yet, while you get only two on the first enemy, because he already "learned"?

The fact that these abilities never SAY that what you suggest is the reason, then it is not a good argument to make. That's how you see it, it is not RAW. I still beleive it is a poor mechanic to use, as it simply makes no sense.
Rustmonster
08-02-07, 10:42 PM i'd say that's the DMs fault hahaha.

But seriously - look at it this way - your body bounces back (to an extent) after its been given a rest no matter how long it is.

Try lifting 80lbs up and down fifty times without letting the weight touch the floor.
then try it in intervals of 10.

The latter is phenomenally easier - hence 'per encounter'. Anyway I have my pallies smiting per encounter already. It's only fair.

Okey, what if you have an encounter, use all of your uses of the ability, then, 1 minute (10 rounds) later, you have another encounter? Your body could not possibly have "bounced back" that fast.

And if it somehow could, what about if you where in a long, drawn out encounter. You use all of your uses for the ability, then you move away for a while, but remain in the encounter, for 1 full minute. You don't gain your ability uses back. Why? shouldn't you have "bounced back"?

The problem is that an "encounter" is a very abstract thing. 1/day is absolute. There is one day per day. 1/week is absolute. There is one week per week. 1/round is absolute. There is one round every 6 seconds. 1/encounter is not absolute. There can be one encounter in a day, then the next five, then the next none, then the next fifty.

It's like telling someone:
"I'll give you $4 a day."
And tell another:
"I'll give you $1 every time you see a man with a hat."

The first guy gets $4 a day, every day, no matter what happens. The second guy might get lucky and see fifty men with hats, and get $50 in one day, or he may see only one man with a hat, and get $1. But it is more likely he will get $4 or more a day (let's say his area is only lightly hat populated). The first guy will be like "WTF? He just has to see a man with a HAT to get a buck! I get $4 no matter what!" It's quite unfair, as you can see.
eamon
08-03-07, 10:40 AM Within a minute it's perfectly possible for a normal human being to bounce back.

Almost all encounters are no longer than a few minutes, max - often not even 1! If you sprint for a minute, and take a minute break, you'll be freshened again by quite a bit. And in any case, it's up to DM judgement what an "encounter" is - so if the break is too short (only a few rounds, say), you're perfectly able to rule that this is still the same encounter.

Abilities which function per encounter are an abstraction of course (otherwise you'd expect the exact number "per encounter" to vary, depending on the encounter), but it's a reasonable simplification. There are many rules which are equally odd - say, falling damage: just accept that it's a simplification intended to have similar consequences with far simpler accounting ;-).
Rustmonster
08-03-07, 12:48 PM Within a minute it's perfectly possible for a normal human being to bounce back.

Almost all encounters are no longer than a few minutes, max - often not even 1! If you sprint for a minute, and take a minute break, you'll be freshened again by quite a bit. And in any case, it's up to DM judgement what an "encounter" is - so if the break is too short (only a few rounds, say), you're perfectly able to rule that this is still the same encounter.

Abilities which function per encounter are an abstraction of course (otherwise you'd expect the exact number "per encounter" to vary, depending on the encounter), but it's a reasonable simplification. There are many rules which are equally odd - say, falling damage: just accept that it's a simplification intended to have similar consequences with far simpler accounting ;-).

I understand that bouncing back that quick is reasonable, but the thing is, it's like you RANDOMLY bounce back after RANDOM amounts of time. One time, it takes a minute, the next it takes two. It might take 6 seconds. It's random. It's not a static number. If the said something like "4/hour", or "4/30 minutes", that would be fine because it makes more sense.
zephyrTR
08-03-07, 04:44 PM This thread is getting off track. Feelings about 'per encounter' set aside, is this a fair ruling? Does this do what the title of the thread says its hoping to do which is nerf fighters at low level and beef them at higher level?
TheScapegoat
08-03-07, 07:05 PM But what if, say, you had 4 uses of somethign per encounter. You use two on the single enemy in combat. Another one JOINS the battle, and hasn't seen or heard the fight. Whit what you suggest, wouldn't you be able to use your ability on the new enemy 4 times, as he hasn't "learned" about it yet, while you get only two on the first enemy, because he already "learned"?

If the same encounter is going then that means that there is still creatures in the fight that where originially in it. When In combat you probably would call out orders to fellows and tell them maybe when then are about to get attacked and what not. In this fray it is highly possible that someone who has already seen the attack warns their allies.

The fact that these abilities never SAY that what you suggest is the reason, then it is not a good argument to make. That's how you see it, it is not RAW. I still beleive it is a poor mechanic to use, as it simply makes no sense.

Maybe I am mistake but the ones we are talking about are created by someone and have nothing to do with RAW. He can make whatever reasoning his abilities work they way they do that he wants.

Also it very much makes sense if it is worked out correctly. Examples in the past just probably where not worked out correctly. The example Zepher gave where also very good reasons why per encounter make sense.

I will agree that examples other classes, created by Wizards, probably do not effectively use this. Maybe better just to go by a per/hour or something as it should almost be the same as per/encounter for is use and it will make a bit more sense (depending on the attack anyhow.)
Max Octavious Xavier
08-04-07, 03:26 PM 01 Combat Reflexes
...
20 Feat, TRAIN

TRAIN: Train has replaced two feats on the board and filled in two slots that are normally empty. Consider them super-feats that only fighters get. They're usable based off your modifier

Crush (STR/encounter) - full round action: 2x damage (3x damage)

Counter (DEX/encounter) - If opponent attacks and misses, attack once at highest BAB, requires AoO (+2 threat)

Endure (CON/day) - Replace will or ref save with a fort save instead (usable 2x CON mod per day)

Parry (INT/encounter) - replace AC with an attack roll to avoid damage from a hit, requires AoO (add int to roll, double int if nothing in off hand)

Focus (WIS/encounter) - add WIS mod to hit (2x WIS mod to hit)

Gamble (CHA/day) - redo any roll, must accept new results (choose best of the two)Why do you think Fighters need nerfing at low levels? Are you also going to nerf rangers, barbarians and paladins (and other "fighting" classes)? I do agree that they need buffing at high levels.

IMO, the changes are interesting, though maybe a little too powerful. I do like the use of all 6 abilities.
Crush- I think I would stay away from a multiplier to damage and instead add level or something
Counter-ok
Endure- how about use con in place of wis or dex, It way to easy for a fighter type to multiclass and get a really awesome for save
Parry- how about int mod to ac for a number of rounds, the fewer rolls, the faster combat goes
Focus-ok
Gamble- how about extra action dice to use during the combat or at most 1 reroll or at least limit rerolls to hit and saves
trapspringer
08-04-07, 04:00 PM I would let the fighter keep all his bonus feats and insert your trains at various unoccupied levels. Fighters are by no means the best class at low levels (that'd be the barbarian), so no worries about that.

My one real criticism is that a fighter would need all six stats comfortably in the black to take advantage of your new abilities. How 'bout some more choices?

Max Octavious Xavier has made some good suggestions. The only point on which I disagree is "crush." Level to damage is too weak IMHO.
zephyrTR
08-05-07, 08:16 PM trapspringer - spot on deduction!

The great thing about fighter is you make them how you want, so I didn't want to make builds that funneled people into one kinda build. Some powergamers just use the best build they know, but my players tend to like a balance between combat and RPing, so if you want a very charismatic warrior, you can build off that.

My point is if you change warrior, you gotta be careful not to pidgeon hole (especially since multiclassing is very typical with fighters). Also keep in mind they only get 5 choices of what to do with train, and you CAN double up on abilities, which means most fighters will likely only have 3 of these abilities. They gotta choose, and it makes your stats more important, as it should since fighter is THE MOST mundane class.

As far as Crush, I like multiplier damage. I'm building variant rules where the bonus damage dice from crits deal CON damage so HP is more like your ability to turn mortal attacks into just scrapes and bruises. Rogues deal 1d4 + x CON on a backstab, Pallies deal 1d4 +x/2 CON damage on a smite, fighters insta crit to CON damage, rangers deal 1d4+x to favored enemies but only while flanking, and im still workin out barbs (thinkin of just lettin them rage more often). Monks can hit to rob you of castings per day, but then of course still have quivering palm.

Anyway I really like this warrior change. Makes them rely on their comrades a bit more at low levels, and they can keep up with wizards in killing power at high levels. I hope you enjoy it too.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zephyrTR 08-02-07, 04:29 PM	01 Combat Reflexes 02 Feat 03 04 Feat 05 06 TRAIN 07 08 Feat 09 TRAIN 10 Feat 11 UNFLANKABLE 12 TRAIN 13 14 Feat 15 TRAIN 16 Feat 17 18 TRAIN 19 20 Feat, TRAIN TRAIN: Train has replaced two feats on the board and filled in two slots that are normally empty. Consider them super-feats that only fighters get. They're usable based off your modifier Crush (STR/encounter) - full round action: 2x damage (3x damage) Counter (DEX/encounter) - If opponent attacks and misses, attack once at highest BAB, requires AoO (+2 threat) Endure (CON/day) - Replace will or ref save with a fort save instead (usable 2x CON mod per day) Parry (INT/encounter) - replace AC with an attack roll to avoid damage from a hit, requires AoO (add int to roll, double int if nothing in off hand) Focus (WIS/encounter) - add WIS mod to hit (2x WIS mod to hit) Gamble (CHA/day) - redo any roll, must accept new results (choose best of the two)
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 04:40 PM	I would stay away from "per encounter". Those things are stupid. "Oh, today we fought 10 kobolds in one group, and so I could use my ability 2 times. But yesterday we had 10 fights with a lone kobold, so I got to use it 20 times!" Illogical to the max.
zephyrTR 08-02-07, 04:47 PM	i'd say that's the DMs fault hahaha. But seriously - look at it this way - your body bounces back (to an extent) after its been given a rest no matter how long it is. Try lifting 80lbs up and down fifty times without letting the weight touch the floor. then try it in intervals of 10. The latter is phenomenally easier - hence 'per encounter'. Anyway I have my pallies smiting per encounter already. It's only fair.
TheScapegoat 08-02-07, 07:34 PM	The Per Encounter can be accountable to the fact that the Fighters opponent learns a bit about how the fighter attacks. Therefor he is unable to find a moment where these abilities work through an opponents attack/defense because the opponent doesn't fall for them anymore.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 10:23 PM	The Per Encounter can be accountable to the fact that the Fighters opponent learns a bit about how the fighter attacks. Therefor he is unable to find a moment where these abilities work through an opponents attack/defense because the opponent doesn't fall for them anymore. But what if, say, you had 4 uses of somethign per encounter. You use two on the single enemy in combat. Another one JOINS the battle, and hasn't seen or heard the fight. Whit what you suggest, wouldn't you be able to use your ability on the new enemy 4 times, as he hasn't "learned" about it yet, while you get only two on the first enemy, because he already "learned"? The fact that these abilities never SAY that what you suggest is the reason, then it is not a good argument to make. That's how you see it, it is not RAW. I still beleive it is a poor mechanic to use, as it simply makes no sense.
Rustmonster 08-02-07, 10:42 PM	i'd say that's the DMs fault hahaha. But seriously - look at it this way - your body bounces back (to an extent) after its been given a rest no matter how long it is. Try lifting 80lbs up and down fifty times without letting the weight touch the floor. then try it in intervals of 10. The latter is phenomenally easier - hence 'per encounter'. Anyway I have my pallies smiting per encounter already. It's only fair. Okey, what if you have an encounter, use all of your uses of the ability, then, 1 minute (10 rounds) later, you have another encounter? Your body could not possibly have "bounced back" that fast. And if it somehow could, what about if you where in a long, drawn out encounter. You use all of your uses for the ability, then you move away for a while, but remain in the encounter, for 1 full minute. You don't gain your ability uses back. Why? shouldn't you have "bounced back"? The problem is that an "encounter" is a very abstract thing. 1/day is absolute. There is one day per day. 1/week is absolute. There is one week per week. 1/round is absolute. There is one round every 6 seconds. 1/encounter is not absolute. There can be one encounter in a day, then the next five, then the next none, then the next fifty. It's like telling someone: "I'll give you $4 a day." And tell another: "I'll give you $1 every time you see a man with a hat." The first guy gets $4 a day, every day, no matter what happens. The second guy might get lucky and see fifty men with hats, and get $50 in one day, or he may see only one man with a hat, and get $1. But it is more likely he will get $4 or more a day (let's say his area is only lightly hat populated). The first guy will be like "WTF? He just has to see a man with a HAT to get a buck! I get $4 no matter what!" It's quite unfair, as you can see.
eamon 08-03-07, 10:40 AM	Within a minute it's perfectly possible for a normal human being to bounce back. Almost all encounters are no longer than a few minutes, max - often not even 1! If you sprint for a minute, and take a minute break, you'll be freshened again by quite a bit. And in any case, it's up to DM judgement what an "encounter" is - so if the break is too short (only a few rounds, say), you're perfectly able to rule that this is still the same encounter. Abilities which function per encounter are an abstraction of course (otherwise you'd expect the exact number "per encounter" to vary, depending on the encounter), but it's a reasonable simplification. There are many rules which are equally odd - say, falling damage: just accept that it's a simplification intended to have similar consequences with far simpler accounting ;-).
Rustmonster 08-03-07, 12:48 PM	Within a minute it's perfectly possible for a normal human being to bounce back. Almost all encounters are no longer than a few minutes, max - often not even 1! If you sprint for a minute, and take a minute break, you'll be freshened again by quite a bit. And in any case, it's up to DM judgement what an "encounter" is - so if the break is too short (only a few rounds, say), you're perfectly able to rule that this is still the same encounter. Abilities which function per encounter are an abstraction of course (otherwise you'd expect the exact number "per encounter" to vary, depending on the encounter), but it's a reasonable simplification. There are many rules which are equally odd - say, falling damage: just accept that it's a simplification intended to have similar consequences with far simpler accounting ;-). I understand that bouncing back that quick is reasonable, but the thing is, it's like you RANDOMLY bounce back after RANDOM amounts of time. One time, it takes a minute, the next it takes two. It might take 6 seconds. It's random. It's not a static number. If the said something like "4/hour", or "4/30 minutes", that would be fine because it makes more sense.
zephyrTR 08-03-07, 04:44 PM	This thread is getting off track. Feelings about 'per encounter' set aside, is this a fair ruling? Does this do what the title of the thread says its hoping to do which is nerf fighters at low level and beef them at higher level?
TheScapegoat 08-03-07, 07:05 PM	But what if, say, you had 4 uses of somethign per encounter. You use two on the single enemy in combat. Another one JOINS the battle, and hasn't seen or heard the fight. Whit what you suggest, wouldn't you be able to use your ability on the new enemy 4 times, as he hasn't "learned" about it yet, while you get only two on the first enemy, because he already "learned"? If the same encounter is going then that means that there is still creatures in the fight that where originially in it. When In combat you probably would call out orders to fellows and tell them maybe when then are about to get attacked and what not. In this fray it is highly possible that someone who has already seen the attack warns their allies. The fact that these abilities never SAY that what you suggest is the reason, then it is not a good argument to make. That's how you see it, it is not RAW. I still beleive it is a poor mechanic to use, as it simply makes no sense. Maybe I am mistake but the ones we are talking about are created by someone and have nothing to do with RAW. He can make whatever reasoning his abilities work they way they do that he wants. Also it very much makes sense if it is worked out correctly. Examples in the past just probably where not worked out correctly. The example Zepher gave where also very good reasons why per encounter make sense. I will agree that examples other classes, created by Wizards, probably do not effectively use this. Maybe better just to go by a per/hour or something as it should almost be the same as per/encounter for is use and it will make a bit more sense (depending on the attack anyhow.)
Max Octavious Xavier 08-04-07, 03:26 PM	01 Combat Reflexes ... 20 Feat, TRAIN TRAIN: Train has replaced two feats on the board and filled in two slots that are normally empty. Consider them super-feats that only fighters get. They're usable based off your modifier Crush (STR/encounter) - full round action: 2x damage (3x damage) Counter (DEX/encounter) - If opponent attacks and misses, attack once at highest BAB, requires AoO (+2 threat) Endure (CON/day) - Replace will or ref save with a fort save instead (usable 2x CON mod per day) Parry (INT/encounter) - replace AC with an attack roll to avoid damage from a hit, requires AoO (add int to roll, double int if nothing in off hand) Focus (WIS/encounter) - add WIS mod to hit (2x WIS mod to hit) Gamble (CHA/day) - redo any roll, must accept new results (choose best of the two)Why do you think Fighters need nerfing at low levels? Are you also going to nerf rangers, barbarians and paladins (and other "fighting" classes)? I do agree that they need buffing at high levels. IMO, the changes are interesting, though maybe a little too powerful. I do like the use of all 6 abilities. Crush- I think I would stay away from a multiplier to damage and instead add level or something Counter-ok Endure- how about use con in place of wis or dex, It way to easy for a fighter type to multiclass and get a really awesome for save Parry- how about int mod to ac for a number of rounds, the fewer rolls, the faster combat goes Focus-ok Gamble- how about extra action dice to use during the combat or at most 1 reroll or at least limit rerolls to hit and saves
trapspringer 08-04-07, 04:00 PM	I would let the fighter keep all his bonus feats and insert your trains at various unoccupied levels. Fighters are by no means the best class at low levels (that'd be the barbarian), so no worries about that. My one real criticism is that a fighter would need all six stats comfortably in the black to take advantage of your new abilities. How 'bout some more choices? Max Octavious Xavier has made some good suggestions. The only point on which I disagree is "crush." Level to damage is too weak IMHO.
zephyrTR 08-05-07, 08:16 PM	trapspringer - spot on deduction! The great thing about fighter is you make them how you want, so I didn't want to make builds that funneled people into one kinda build. Some powergamers just use the best build they know, but my players tend to like a balance between combat and RPing, so if you want a very charismatic warrior, you can build off that. My point is if you change warrior, you gotta be careful not to pidgeon hole (especially since multiclassing is very typical with fighters). Also keep in mind they only get 5 choices of what to do with train, and you CAN double up on abilities, which means most fighters will likely only have 3 of these abilities. They gotta choose, and it makes your stats more important, as it should since fighter is THE MOST mundane class. As far as Crush, I like multiplier damage. I'm building variant rules where the bonus damage dice from crits deal CON damage so HP is more like your ability to turn mortal attacks into just scrapes and bruises. Rogues deal 1d4 + x CON on a backstab, Pallies deal 1d4 +x/2 CON damage on a smite, fighters insta crit to CON damage, rangers deal 1d4+x to favored enemies but only while flanking, and im still workin out barbs (thinkin of just lettin them rage more often). Monks can hit to rob you of castings per day, but then of course still have quivering palm. Anyway I really like this warrior change. Makes them rely on their comrades a bit more at low levels, and they can keep up with wizards in killing power at high levels. I hope you enjoy it too.