Fighter: Equipment vs. Self-sufficiency [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fighter: Equipment vs. Self-sufficiency [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shout27
06-21-07, 06:04 PM I have been trying to figure out a balanced approach to exchanging the extra weapon Feats a Fighter starts off with for more plausibly useful Feats such as Combat Expertise, Power Atack, Point Blank Shot, etc. and the thought that fits is: Fighter starts with all Simple Weapons and Martial Weapons of the characters choice. the exchange rates for weapon vs. feat would be 2:1 for martial and 5:1 for Simple, and feats gained in this manner can only be used with the kept weapons as a class feature.
the only way to add more weapons to the list of Feat Applicable Weapons would be taking the MWP and EWP Feats which will add the specified weapon to the class list of weapons.
Such an ability would also make Sundering more useful/annoying in the day-to-day work of the game, a standard Fighter would be the least affected, but a focused one would likely end up being unable to use feats he has if he focuses on only being able to use a Greatsword to the fullest effect.

Tell me what you think.
Krusk
06-21-07, 07:19 PM You might be on to something interesting, but the ratios are too low i think. 2-1 and 5-1 are way too low. I would up them a lot, maybe 5-1 for martial weapons, and all-1 for simple.

Otherwise you have someone who dumps everything but longbow, takes exotic spiked chain. And gets a good chunk of extra feats. for relativly low cost.
shout27
06-21-07, 07:35 PM that fits, i mostly want to be able to start with more useful abilities rather than be totally reliant on equipment. It irked me that a Fighter has to keep a bunch of weapons that most people only choose to use 4 or 5 of the entire list.
shout27
06-21-07, 09:08 PM Krusk, do you have any recommendations for a limited list of Feat choices? just to keep Power-Gaming to a minimum.
shout27
06-22-07, 08:29 AM a set of abilities given in exchange for available weapons, the feats with prerequisites are gained at the appropriate Fighter Levels as a class feature.

All Martial Weapons for either:
2 Full Martial Specializations (WF,WS, GWF, GWS, IWC, etc.),
1 Full Exotic Specialization (as previous but only for 1 weapon),
Entire Simple Specialization (as previous and applies to all Simple Weapons),
or Unarmed (IUS, IG, and MWP(spiked Armor) would increase as previously noted)
Krusk
06-23-07, 04:20 AM Maybe force the player to take any non fighter feat. That way they can get any feats they need for prestige classes out of the way. Endurance diehard ect. Also this should help them to take feats that are not the helping out their core stratigy entirly.

instead of weapon focus, they can take endurance. Instead of weapon specialization they get diehard. ect.

just throwing out some ideas.
shout27
06-23-07, 02:10 PM Such a Fighter Starts with either of these weapon proficiency sets:

1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Major) at the cost of his 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feat.

2 Martial Weapon Proficiencies (Major) at the cost of his 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feat. Improved Unarmed Strike counts as a martial weapon.

6 Simple (Major) at the cost of his 1st Fighter Bonus Feat

Major = Character automatically gains the Weapon Specialization Feats at these levels. WF = 1, WS = 5, GWF = 9, and GWS = 13

For the lost Weapons gains:

3 General Feats (usable without Starting Weapons: Endurance, Diehard, Run, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Dodge, Etc.),

4 Fighting Form Improvements (Requires Class Weapon/s to work and only the following feats are available: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse, Mounted Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
If character is taking Unarmed as a Martial Weapon then they may also choose from the following: Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist<taken at 1st level only to be treated as a monk of equivalent level in regards to the feat>) it should be noted

tell me what you think.
shout27
06-24-07, 04:29 AM The set-up needs some tweaking so here you are,

Major Proficiency needs a revision in what it gives you and when so i'll have that up at a later date.

A. There is in general only 1 Major Proficiency, and I 'm thinking of changing set-ups as follows (Note that in all cases the 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feats are not gained):

1 Exotic Proficiency (Major)

1 Martial Proficiency (Major) and 2 Martial Proficiencies (Minor)

5 Simple (Major) and all other Simple Minor

------------------------------

Your Major Proficiency gives you an extra Ability/Feat related to the Major Proficiency as follows:

Improved Unarmed Strike: has the benefit of being treated as a Monk of the equivalent level in regards to the Feat Stunning Fist, however to gain this benefit you must take the feat at level 1 otherwise this benefit is lost.

Ranged, Projectile: Point Blank Shot

Ranged, Thrown: Quickdraw

Two-Handed Weapon: Power-Attack

One-handed Weapon: Combat Expertise

Light Weapon: Weapon Finesse

----------------------------------

Minor Weapon Proficiencies increase at these points:
WF 5, WS 9, GWF 13, GWS 17

Depending on the Major Specialization some Minor will give or gain a synergy bonus as follows:

With IUS both Improved Grapple and Spiked Armor count as a single Minor Specialization, if you give up your last Minor Pro. both become Major.

With any Bow Standard or Composite you can have all four bows as Major if you give up all your Minor Pro.

------------------------------------------

You can have only two Major of the following sets in exchange for your 1 major and 2 minor (note that any weapon which fits in two catagories can only grant 1 of the 2. ie Light Hammer = Weapon Finesse or Quickdraw):

Throwing Axe, Handaxe, Battle Axe, Great Axe.

Shortsword, Longsword, Greatsword.

Kukri, Scimitar, Falchion.

Flail, Heavy Flail.

Light Hammer, Warhammer.

Trident, Guisarme, Glaive, Halberd, Ranseur, Lance.

in other words 2 Majors are available if the Weapons are similar enough.

-----------------------------------------

in regards to the following feats: if you previously gained them, the second tier is available if you meet the prerequisite for each feat there. (Major = Greatsword which comes with Power Attack, so the character can take Cleave or Improved Sunder if they wished)

2 General Feats (as noted previously)

1 Fighting Form Improvement (Requires Class Weapon/s to work and only the following feats are available: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse, Mounted Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting.

tell me what you think, please?
shout27
06-24-07, 10:13 AM It should be noted that the weapon list is being treated a little bit differently than what i first posted.

The weapons that this variant receives at 1st level are pretty much it. a character can get Proficiencies for another weapon but they can't it use with their feats until they have obtained GWF in the weapon.

One idea i am toying with is letting a fighter also give up their shields (normal+tower) for either:

One martial weapon proficiency (Least: MWP L5, WF L9, WS, L13, GWF 17)

All Simple (Least, minor: SWP L5, SWF L10, SWS, 16)

or 1 additional Fighting Form Improvement Feat

it should be noted that the standard restriction does not apply to least, that is to say from the moment they get the proficiency they can use it with their Feats as an exception to the rule.
shout27
06-25-07, 02:00 PM Questions? Comments? Recommendations? do you see any "holes" in the set-up? should i make specific weapon groups with alternate power-ups, like with unarmed (major) instead of getting a feat has the oppertunity to take Stunning Fist as a Monk?
shout27
06-26-07, 03:08 PM Note, for those who don't want to deal with the above but do wish to increase the capabilities of their Fighters. Give the character a self-affecting aura at 3rd level with an increase to it every other level.

Starting Aura Example:
Fearless: +1 bonus to Saves against Fear

Level 5 Upgrade
Strong Will: +1 Will Save (requirement: Fearless)

Possible Trees:

No Fear: Ignores Fear Effects, magical or otherwise (Fearless and Strong Will)

Leak Killing Intent: When in battle, oppenents who fail a Will save DC of 5 + 1/2 character level + 1/2 ranks in Intimidate are treated as though under the effects of Bane (characters Immune to Fear ignore this ability). (Fearless + Strong Will)

Unyielding Will: +1 Will and Character is immune to Mind-Affecting Spells/Abilities. (Fearless, Strong Will, No Fear)

Unleash Killing Intent: When in battle, oppenents who fail a Will save DC of 10 + character level + 1/2 ranks in Intimidate are treated as though under the effects of Bane, and have a 25% chance of being paralyzed (those "Immue to Mind-Affecting" ignore Paralysis, otherwise functions as Leak Killing Intent). (Fearless + Strong Will + Leak Killing Intent)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shout27 06-21-07, 06:04 PM	I have been trying to figure out a balanced approach to exchanging the extra weapon Feats a Fighter starts off with for more plausibly useful Feats such as Combat Expertise, Power Atack, Point Blank Shot, etc. and the thought that fits is: Fighter starts with all Simple Weapons and Martial Weapons of the characters choice. the exchange rates for weapon vs. feat would be 2:1 for martial and 5:1 for Simple, and feats gained in this manner can only be used with the kept weapons as a class feature. the only way to add more weapons to the list of Feat Applicable Weapons would be taking the MWP and EWP Feats which will add the specified weapon to the class list of weapons. Such an ability would also make Sundering more useful/annoying in the day-to-day work of the game, a standard Fighter would be the least affected, but a focused one would likely end up being unable to use feats he has if he focuses on only being able to use a Greatsword to the fullest effect. Tell me what you think.
Krusk 06-21-07, 07:19 PM	You might be on to something interesting, but the ratios are too low i think. 2-1 and 5-1 are way too low. I would up them a lot, maybe 5-1 for martial weapons, and all-1 for simple. Otherwise you have someone who dumps everything but longbow, takes exotic spiked chain. And gets a good chunk of extra feats. for relativly low cost.
shout27 06-21-07, 07:35 PM	that fits, i mostly want to be able to start with more useful abilities rather than be totally reliant on equipment. It irked me that a Fighter has to keep a bunch of weapons that most people only choose to use 4 or 5 of the entire list.
shout27 06-21-07, 09:08 PM	Krusk, do you have any recommendations for a limited list of Feat choices? just to keep Power-Gaming to a minimum.
shout27 06-22-07, 08:29 AM	a set of abilities given in exchange for available weapons, the feats with prerequisites are gained at the appropriate Fighter Levels as a class feature. All Martial Weapons for either: 2 Full Martial Specializations (WF,WS, GWF, GWS, IWC, etc.), 1 Full Exotic Specialization (as previous but only for 1 weapon), Entire Simple Specialization (as previous and applies to all Simple Weapons), or Unarmed (IUS, IG, and MWP(spiked Armor) would increase as previously noted)
Krusk 06-23-07, 04:20 AM	Maybe force the player to take any non fighter feat. That way they can get any feats they need for prestige classes out of the way. Endurance diehard ect. Also this should help them to take feats that are not the helping out their core stratigy entirly. instead of weapon focus, they can take endurance. Instead of weapon specialization they get diehard. ect. just throwing out some ideas.
shout27 06-23-07, 02:10 PM	Such a Fighter Starts with either of these weapon proficiency sets: 1 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Major) at the cost of his 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feat. 2 Martial Weapon Proficiencies (Major) at the cost of his 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feat. Improved Unarmed Strike counts as a martial weapon. 6 Simple (Major) at the cost of his 1st Fighter Bonus Feat Major = Character automatically gains the Weapon Specialization Feats at these levels. WF = 1, WS = 5, GWF = 9, and GWS = 13 For the lost Weapons gains: 3 General Feats (usable without Starting Weapons: Endurance, Diehard, Run, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Dodge, Etc.), 4 Fighting Form Improvements (Requires Class Weapon/s to work and only the following feats are available: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse, Mounted Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting. If character is taking Unarmed as a Martial Weapon then they may also choose from the following: Improved Grapple, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist<taken at 1st level only to be treated as a monk of equivalent level in regards to the feat>) it should be noted tell me what you think.
shout27 06-24-07, 04:29 AM	The set-up needs some tweaking so here you are, Major Proficiency needs a revision in what it gives you and when so i'll have that up at a later date. A. There is in general only 1 Major Proficiency, and I 'm thinking of changing set-ups as follows (Note that in all cases the 1st and 2nd Fighter Bonus Feats are not gained): 1 Exotic Proficiency (Major) 1 Martial Proficiency (Major) and 2 Martial Proficiencies (Minor) 5 Simple (Major) and all other Simple Minor ------------------------------ Your Major Proficiency gives you an extra Ability/Feat related to the Major Proficiency as follows: Improved Unarmed Strike: has the benefit of being treated as a Monk of the equivalent level in regards to the Feat Stunning Fist, however to gain this benefit you must take the feat at level 1 otherwise this benefit is lost. Ranged, Projectile: Point Blank Shot Ranged, Thrown: Quickdraw Two-Handed Weapon: Power-Attack One-handed Weapon: Combat Expertise Light Weapon: Weapon Finesse ---------------------------------- Minor Weapon Proficiencies increase at these points: WF 5, WS 9, GWF 13, GWS 17 Depending on the Major Specialization some Minor will give or gain a synergy bonus as follows: With IUS both Improved Grapple and Spiked Armor count as a single Minor Specialization, if you give up your last Minor Pro. both become Major. With any Bow Standard or Composite you can have all four bows as Major if you give up all your Minor Pro. ------------------------------------------ You can have only two Major of the following sets in exchange for your 1 major and 2 minor (note that any weapon which fits in two catagories can only grant 1 of the 2. ie Light Hammer = Weapon Finesse or Quickdraw): Throwing Axe, Handaxe, Battle Axe, Great Axe. Shortsword, Longsword, Greatsword. Kukri, Scimitar, Falchion. Flail, Heavy Flail. Light Hammer, Warhammer. Trident, Guisarme, Glaive, Halberd, Ranseur, Lance. in other words 2 Majors are available if the Weapons are similar enough. ----------------------------------------- in regards to the following feats: if you previously gained them, the second tier is available if you meet the prerequisite for each feat there. (Major = Greatsword which comes with Power Attack, so the character can take Cleave or Improved Sunder if they wished) 2 General Feats (as noted previously) 1 Fighting Form Improvement (Requires Class Weapon/s to work and only the following feats are available: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Blind-Fight, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Finesse, Mounted Combat, and Two-Weapon Fighting. tell me what you think, please?
shout27 06-24-07, 10:13 AM	It should be noted that the weapon list is being treated a little bit differently than what i first posted. The weapons that this variant receives at 1st level are pretty much it. a character can get Proficiencies for another weapon but they can't it use with their feats until they have obtained GWF in the weapon. One idea i am toying with is letting a fighter also give up their shields (normal+tower) for either: One martial weapon proficiency (Least: MWP L5, WF L9, WS, L13, GWF 17) All Simple (Least, minor: SWP L5, SWF L10, SWS, 16) or 1 additional Fighting Form Improvement Feat it should be noted that the standard restriction does not apply to least, that is to say from the moment they get the proficiency they can use it with their Feats as an exception to the rule.
shout27 06-25-07, 02:00 PM	Questions? Comments? Recommendations? do you see any "holes" in the set-up? should i make specific weapon groups with alternate power-ups, like with unarmed (major) instead of getting a feat has the oppertunity to take Stunning Fist as a Monk?
shout27 06-26-07, 03:08 PM	Note, for those who don't want to deal with the above but do wish to increase the capabilities of their Fighters. Give the character a self-affecting aura at 3rd level with an increase to it every other level. Starting Aura Example: Fearless: +1 bonus to Saves against Fear Level 5 Upgrade Strong Will: +1 Will Save (requirement: Fearless) Possible Trees: No Fear: Ignores Fear Effects, magical or otherwise (Fearless and Strong Will) Leak Killing Intent: When in battle, oppenents who fail a Will save DC of 5 + 1/2 character level + 1/2 ranks in Intimidate are treated as though under the effects of Bane (characters Immune to Fear ignore this ability). (Fearless + Strong Will) Unyielding Will: +1 Will and Character is immune to Mind-Affecting Spells/Abilities. (Fearless, Strong Will, No Fear) Unleash Killing Intent: When in battle, oppenents who fail a Will save DC of 10 + character level + 1/2 ranks in Intimidate are treated as though under the effects of Bane, and have a 25% chance of being paralyzed (those "Immue to Mind-Affecting" ignore Paralysis, otherwise functions as Leak Killing Intent). (Fearless + Strong Will + Leak Killing Intent)