Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FlameLover 07-14-06, 10:16 PM	I have been thinking about how to make non-caster types more interesting and useful to a party, and I came to a conclusion. Alot of things that could be done with these character types are ignored or shot-down because they lack precedent in the rules - they break convention. So I decided to start this thread, in the hope that other posters could add more suggestions to make these sorts of characters more fun to play. The key here is that they can break convention - they can feel like they should belong to "another system" if you want. So here are some of my examples and own thoughts, some are more convention-breaking than others though. BAB as Bonus Damage: This is simple, as with all the normal rules for BAB on all weapon attack rolls you add your BAB as a flat bonus to damage. This gives fighters a nice benefit that scales with level, and does very little for casters types who don't use weapons very often. Super Feats: Feats do not compare to spells at high levels - but why should this be the case? Here is an example of a feat that is overpowered compared to other feats, but in my opinion is fine compared to what the mages are dishing out at this level. Deathstrike [Fighter] Prerequisites: Str 15, BAB +12, Power Attack Benefit: Whenever you deal damage on an attack that suffered atleast a -5 penalty from the Power Attack feat, the subject must make a Fortitude save (DC is 10+half BAB+Str bonus) or be reduced to -10 hit points. Compare that feat to Slay Living, and it seems almost tame in comparison. Base Defence Bonus: Apply half all full-BAB classes BAB as a dodge bonus to AC. This would help fighters avoid the deadly touch spells that mages have, and doesn't give casters even more benefits. Giving the benefit to everyone could also work, but I'm not too sure if that'd be a major boon for casters as well. Item Creation: What about allowing anyone to create special magic items, using the standard crafting times and costs, with the caveat they only function for themselves. This would allow all fighter types to be like the Kensai class I guess. BAB Factors: You could also add a character's BAB to more checks, just like the opposed Sense Motive check when feinting in combat. This would range from adding it to the tumbling DC possibly, to adding it to the Casting Defensivley option DC. BAB Freebies: What about more abilities you get just for having a given BAB? I mean you can draw and move your speed as a move action with a BAB of at least +1, why not go further with this? Maybe letting you get two attacks as a standard action just for having a BAB of 11 (meaning low BAB classes NEVER get it, and mid BAB classes only really high level). This are just some ideas to get the discussion started. Most of the above are pretty compare to what you could do - why not grant a high-level fighter the ability to use Wish, for example?
AT-AT Assault 07-14-06, 10:49 PM	I dont have anything clear cut in mind, but. What about giving the Fighter some extroidinary abilities comparable to Spells? Like at X level the Fighter has the ability to treat any weapon he wields as a +Y enhancement bonus weapon lasting Z amount time, N times per day.
Thiez 07-15-06, 08:14 AM	"Base Defence Bonus: Apply half all full-BAB classes BAB as a dodge bonus to AC. This would help fighters avoid the deadly touch spells that mages have, and doesn't give casters even more benefits. Giving the benefit to everyone could also work, but I'm not too sure if that'd be a major boon for casters as well." Why not simply give everyone 1/2 BAB as a competence bonus to AC? Competence bonus makes more sense (imho). I don't like it when people with -16 armor check penalties dodge stuff ;)
FlameLover 07-15-06, 09:24 AM	I dont have anything clear cut in mind, but. What about giving the Fighter some extroidinary abilities comparable to Spells? Like at X level the Fighter has the ability to treat any weapon he wields as a +Y enhancement bonus weapon lasting Z amount time, N times per day. Yeah Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved did something like this, worked pretty well. My players don't like it, but it can certainly deal with the inequality issue - and I myself find it kind of cool. "Base Defence Bonus: Apply half all full-BAB classes BAB as a dodge bonus to AC. This would help fighters avoid the deadly touch spells that mages have, and doesn't give casters even more benefits. Giving the benefit to everyone could also work, but I'm not too sure if that'd be a major boon for casters as well." Why not simply give everyone 1/2 BAB as a competence bonus to AC? Competence bonus makes more sense (imho). I don't like it when people with -16 armor check penalties dodge stuff Well it is the same thing as giving them 1/2 BAB as competence bonus to AC, the only difference is that dodge bonuses are lost when flat-footed. I don't think this bonus should be calculated in for your flat-footed AC though as it represents active defence on your own part, something you're not doing if you're flat-footed. So while flavour-wise I totally agree with you, mechanically it works "smooter" I feel as a dodge bonus. Same deal with Combat Expertise, it is more of a competence bonus but mechanically works better as a dodge bonus. Thanks for the replies so far. Just keep posting more and brainstorming, along with talking about the stuff posted before. Thiez makes a case for it being a competence bonus, but i'm not convinced yet. Here's another idea I've had (i think i've seen someone else post it, sorry I don't remember who): Better Attack Progression: Your full attacks are different. You still get more attacks at 6, 11, and 16 BAB but they're calculated differently. Normally if you'd have say +13/+7, but instead you get +11/+11. Or if you might get +25/+20/+15/+10 you instead have +19/+19/+19/+19. So as you can see you get a -2 penalty for every additional attack (you can make no more than usual though).
Phoenix Knight 07-15-06, 10:48 AM	I do really like many of these ideas. I have to ask, though, if characters add BAB to damage, does that include monsters? If not monster characters are now even more screwed by racial HD and LA, and if it does, beware monsters who often have far more HD than their CR. A CR 10 White Dragon has 18 HD (which means +18 damage on all attacks).
Cheza 07-15-06, 12:41 PM	I have been thinking about how to make non-caster types more interesting and useful to a party, and I came to a conclusion. Alot of things that could be done with these character types are ignored or shot-down because they lack precedent in the rules - they break convention. Ever used Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) or magic protection, like Spell Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellResistance), Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm) or Globe of Invulnerability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/globeOfInvulnerability.htm)??? Do you make use of Counterspells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells) or Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#concentration) checks ??? If you use all these possibilities and still think it's unbalanced, than you should change your combat situation. Do your characters prepare before a battle? Let's roll a Listen check, if their enemies notice that and interrupt them immediatly. If you failed, try a Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) - maybe with metamagic enhancements like empower or maximize - to nullifier any pre-cast effect. This could make your spellcasters an easy kill. If you have intelligent monsters without spellcasters, try hit-&-run tactics. If they notice a fully buffed up party, they retreat behind a hasty blocked passage to busy your characters. This should take as much time as any spell with 1round/lvl. lasts. If your players use spells with casting time 1 min./lvl. than you should try decoy tactics. At the moment their spells end, the reinforcements arrives or hidden monsters arrive... Use combat tactics to negate spellcasters. Grappling is maybe the best thing to hinder spellcasters to do their job. The same is true for narrow passages. Then. After all this and if you still think spellcasters rule, it is a problem of "balance" in your group. BAB as Bonus Damage: This is simple, as with all the normal rules for BAB on all weapon attack rolls you add your BAB as a flat bonus to damage. This gives fighters a nice benefit that scales with level, and does very little for casters types who don't use weapons very often. "that scales with level" are magic bonuses. Ever seen a fighter with +X strength, size and speed increase and with multiple damage increasing effects (holy, vicious, flamig sword or wounding)? Or did you ever seen a rogue using a full-attack action before your opponent had the chance to react. If she is in point blank shot range this causes multiple sneak attacks. Did any of your spellcasters ever deal 60d6 to a single target? That shouldn't be a problem for a high-level rogue and doesn't include weapon of strength damage. If she can reach them unnoticed, she could use a full attack action combined with two-weapons fighting. If you add the BAB to weapon damage, this will be very unbalanced. I imagine a whirling, large fighter or a two-weapons fighter, possibly dealing 180 additional damage (BAB 20 * 9 attacks per round). This doesn't include probable critical hits. Deathstrike [Fighter] Prerequisites: Str 15, BAB +12, Power Attack Benefit: Whenever you deal damage on an attack that suffered at least a -5 penalty from the Power Attack feat, the subject must make a Fortitude save (DC is 10+half BAB+Str bonus) or be reduced to -10 hit points. Compare that feat to Slay Living, and it seems almost tame in comparison. Did you ever see a spellcaster making 9 Slay Living "attemps" per round??? So what you miss is, that spellcasters are limited in their resources. A level 12 spellcaster could cast Slay Living about 3 times a day. If you allow the deathstrike feat, a fighter can make about 3 attemps PER ROUND. Base Defence Bonus: Apply half all full-BAB classes BAB as a dodge bonus to AC. This would help fighters avoid the deadly touch spells that mages have, and doesn't give casters even more benefits. Giving the benefit to everyone could also work, but I'm not too sure if that'd be a major boon for casters as well. Take a look at the Unearthed Arcana. Your change is similar to the changes suggested in this book. But I wouldn't limit it to full-BAB classes. But be aware that if you add this to your characters, this should be added to the monsters as well. Item Creation: What about allowing anyone to create special magic items, using the standard crafting times and costs, with the caveat they only function for themselves. This would allow all fighter types to be like the Kensai class I guess. Use cursed or restricted items to reduce the costs or invent special materials, hard to craft but with a higher natural bonus to attack or damage. Or these materials could have an inherent magical effect, that can only be used when crafted into a melee-weapon. (I don't like the new adamantine, cold-iron effects) BAB Factors: You could also add a character's BAB to more checks, just like the opposed Sense Motive check when feinting in combat. This would range from adding it to the tumbling DC possibly, to adding it to the Casting Defensivley option DC. What result do you want or do you expect??? Tumbling is to easy by now, because it is a fixed value (20-25) and it doesn't matter if you are surrounded be 1 tiny bat or 4 huge giants with +XXX to attack. Casting defensively is too easy too ... and useless! It has a fixed value too and in most cases, your spellcaster will take a 5ft. step, to get out of the threat range.
AT-AT Assault 07-15-06, 02:56 PM	...stuff...That's good and all, but it sets up an inequality. To have to be an inherently smart and tactically oriented play to effecitevly play a fighter-type makes them unbalanced to a caster if you dont need to give more than a minute's thought to what to do with the caster. And I dont know if you would say this or not, but dont give me that "Then play a caster if you cant play a fighter" crap. Maybe I dont want to play a caster to begin with, maybe I want to play a fighter. Personally I think Wizards gave way to much time and effort to casters and not enough time and effort to noncasters. And I think I've found another reason to buy Monte Cook's material sometime in the near future (it seems Cook knows how to create a balanced game more so than the other Wizards' R&D people, no wonder he started his own company).
FlameLover 07-15-06, 07:13 PM	Ever used Antimagic Field or magic protection, like Spell Resistance, Spell Immunity or Globe of Invulnerability??? Do you make use of Counterspells or Concentration checks ??? If you use all these possibilities and still think it's unbalanced, than you should change your combat situation. Do your characters prepare before a battle? Let's roll a Listen check, if their enemies notice that and interrupt them immediatly. If you failed, try a Dispel Magic - maybe with metamagic enhancements like empower or maximize - to nullifier any pre-cast effect. This could make your spellcasters an easy kill. If you have intelligent monsters without spellcasters, try hit-&-run tactics. If they notice a fully buffed up party, they retreat behind a hasty blocked passage to busy your characters. This should take as much time as any spell with 1round/lvl. lasts. If your players use spells with casting time 1 min./lvl. than you should try decoy tactics. At the moment their spells end, the reinforcements arrives or hidden monsters arrive... Use combat tactics to negate spellcasters. Grappling is maybe the best thing to hinder spellcasters to do their job. The same is true for narrow passages. Then. After all this and if you still think spellcasters rule, it is a problem of "balance" in your group. Pretty much yes on all accounts. But you know what? I try and avoid deliberatley screwing with casting classes like this. And an anti-magic field almost hurts a fighter just as much (who as you point out later on relies on magic items to do nearly anything). No you can try to create encounters to challenge them, but why should you have to? As DM i'd spend all my prep time trying to make the game balance around one party member when my other 4 players are all fine with challenges for fighters (ie. nearly anything in the MM). "that scales with level" are magic bonuses. Ever seen a fighter with +X strength, size and speed increase and with multiple damage increasing effects (holy, vicious, flamig sword or wounding)? Or did you ever seen a rogue using a full-attack action before your opponent had the chance to react. If she is in point blank shot range this causes multiple sneak attacks. Did any of your spellcasters ever deal 60d6 to a single target? That shouldn't be a problem for a high-level rogue and doesn't include weapon of strength damage. If she can reach them unnoticed, she could use a full attack action combined with two-weapons fighting. If you add the BAB to weapon damage, this will be very unbalanced. I imagine a whirling, large fighter or a two-weapons fighter, possibly dealing 180 additional damage (BAB 20 * 9 attacks per round). This doesn't include probable critical hits. No offence meant here, but and? I mean the Rogue particularly - you're atleast level 19 and have invested in the TWF feat tree. Are you telling me you consistently hit with all of those attacks? You're even getting SA (crit-immune and creatures hard to flank or get flat-footed)? Lets just look at what a mage is doing with 7th level spells (and by this level they have plenty of them)... Destruction (save or die, if you save take 10d6 damage), Disintegrate (36d6 damage, 5d6 if they make save), Mass Inflict Serious Wounds (3d8+19 damage to up to 19 creatures)... the list goes on. And more important than raw damage is utility. Magic offers a defence or counter to nearly everything, fighter-types certainly don't have that. Beating a rogue is incredibly simple (blind them or create darkness - they now have 50% miss chance and can't get presicion damage). I could do the same with this two-weapons fighter, but you'd get an even less impressive show from them than the Rogue. Did you ever see a spellcaster making 9 Slay Living "attemps" per round??? So what you miss is, that spellcasters are limited in their resources. A level 12 spellcaster could cast Slay Living about 3 times a day. If you allow the deathstrike feat, a fighter can make about 3 attemps PER ROUND. At what level does a fighter have this mythical "9-attacks-per-round" ability? If it's atleast level 15 then mages have level 8 spells by then. Once you get to high level it's pretty dang hard to get NEAR a mage, let alone hit them. The case is always made that mages have "limited resources", but that doesn't really matter when they only need to use them once per day to topple something. Take a look at the Unearthed Arcana. Your change is similar to the changes suggested in this book. But I wouldn't limit it to full-BAB classes. But be aware that if you add this to your characters, this should be added to the monsters as well. It's similar to the variant there, but it would follow the progression listed above. And as I said, maybe not limit it to full-BAB classes: I was just thinking it could be a "boon" for them. But monsters wouldn't be changed by this - as all the above variants, they affect classes. So if you advance a monster in a character class, they'd get whatever benefits I institute, otherwise they stay the same. Use cursed or restricted items to reduce the costs or invent special materials, hard to craft but with a higher natural bonus to attack or damage. Or these materials could have an inherent magical effect, that can only be used when crafted into a melee-weapon. (I don't like the new adamantine, cold-iron effects) So what your saying is this... a mage gets a few magic item creation feats and starts churning out the goods, while a warrior wastes one of there precious 2 skill points per level on a craft skill just to make an item that has some magic-esque abilities. That just seems like adding insult to injury. What result do you want or do you expect??? Tumbling is to easy by now, because it is a fixed value (20-25) and it doesn't matter if you are surrounded be 1 tiny bat or 4 huge giants with +XXX to attack. Casting defensively is too easy too ... and useless! It has a fixed value too and in most cases, your spellcaster will take a 5ft. step, to get out of the threat range. I don't think I explained what I had in mind very well. The idea is to make a tumbler make an individual check against each opponent they pass with all the usual modifiers, although add onto that the creatures BAB. And the Casting Defensivley is not "too easy" - it's 15+level of the spell+BAB, with the check being made for each person who threatens. And it does nothing to foil a readied action... I think the key issue here Cheza, is that you have found the "per day" limit to be a good balance. My group has not, as they are fond of entering each encounter fully-prepared and rested. Now this would be fine, except the mage can unleash way more in a given time span than anyone else - and you can only do so many resting surprise attacks before the players get sick of your rampant "i catch mage off-guard". Whenever I do this the other players get a chance to play, leaving one of them (the mage) unhappy and sitting there asking "am I done preparing ONE SPELL yet?" Even worse than this though is that fighter-types have limited scope. In a straight brawl they are better than mages at low levels, worse than them at high - but in any non-combat situation the mage beats the fighter-type hands down. The Wizard, Rogue and Cleric all have out-of-combat duties, the Fighter just doesn't. There time to shine is in combat I assume, but they just can't past level 3 (once you get Scorching Ray, things start dropping).The Fighter needs to both excel at combat, and be decent outside of it. I understand if you don't agree, everyone plays differently and enjoys different things. But I know that there are people on these forums that agree with me, they agree that Fighters need help.
Cheza 07-16-06, 11:54 AM	I try and avoid deliberatley screwing with casting classes like this. And an anti-magic field almost hurts a fighter just as much (who as you point out later on relies on magic items to do nearly anything). See the radius. I mean the Rogue particularly - you're atleast level 19 and have invested in the TWF feat tree. Are you telling me you consistently hit with all of those attacks? You're even getting SA (crit-immune and creatures hard to flank or get flat-footed)? Maybe you missed the "no-dex effect". Ok. Let's take another look. This time it's @ level 11. By this time, a roge should have the following stats: BAB + 8, Dex + 6, weapon + 3. Maybe point blank shot or weapon focus, etc. That's a +18 to attack. Cloud Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#cloudGiant): Flat-fooded AC 24 Hezrou (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#hezrou): Flat-fooded AC 23 Ten-headed Pyro-Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm): Flat-fooded AC 19 Barbed Devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#barbedDevilHamatula): Flat-fooded AC 22 As you can see it's possible to hit with all 3 attacks. This doesn't include tricks, like special weapons, aditional spell effects (p.e. bless), combat situations (invisible) and so on. The Rogue, if he successfully hit with all three attacks, will deal at least 18d6 (sneak) + 3d8 (weapon) + 9 (weapon enhancement) + X (strength). So this should be about 110 damage. This doesn't include critical hits or special sneak attack feats. He can do this once per encounter. A wizard of this level could cast the following spells: chain lightning 11d6 + 1/2 damage to near creatures | reflex=half, electricity resistance useful fire ball 10d6 with radius | reflex=half Desintegrate 22d6 damage | must hit with touch attack & Fortitude for 5d6 Phantasmal killer | 2 saves to kill an enemyA Cleric could cast: Harm 110 HPs | touch attack required (AoOs), Will=half Blade Barrier 11d6 | reflex=half or even no damage Slay living kills | touch attack required (AoO), Fort = 3d6So it's up to you to compare the effect. The wizard has to make a successful touch attack and must overcome the Spellresistance. After that, the enemy need to fail with a save. So I don't know, why non-spellcasters are too weak. By this time, a fighter should even have a greater attack bonus than the rogue and either deal great amounts of critical damage (improved crit+power attack) or has 4 nearly-sure hits per round. The damage per round shouldn't be lower like that: 60+X damage = 4d6 (2 weapons) + 4d6 (elemental) + 18 (strength) + 8 (enhancement) + 8 (w. specialization) + X (power attack) Now you can give him an additional level, 'cause 11 isn't a fighter level and his damage will get maybe +17. It's similar to the variant there, but it would follow the progression listed above. And as I said, maybe not limit it to full-BAB classes: I was just thinking it could be a "boon" for them. But monsters wouldn't be changed by this - as all the above variants, they affect classes. So if you advance a monster in a character class, they'd get whatever benefits I institute, otherwise they stay the same. If you give this lvl-11 fighter a bonus equal to his BAB, his damage will be increased by +40. So what your saying is this... a mage gets a few magic item creation feats and starts churning out the goods, while a warrior wastes one of there precious 2 skill points per level on a craft skill just to make an item that has some magic-esque abilities. That just seems like adding insult to injury. By now, you change from "his spells can kill" to a "he can spend XP for reducing gold-costs of items". By the way, Does this really hurt you? If he create an unbalanced item, than don't allow it!!! It's not the 12.5gp = 1 XP that makes things unbalanced. Increase the trading capabilities. So if your fighter want to sell his old sword for a new one, he may only pay the difference. I think the key issue here Cheza, is that you have found the "per day" limit to be a good balance. My group has not, as they are fond of entering each encounter fully-prepared and rested. Now this would be fine, except the mage can unleash way more in a given time span than anyone else - and you can only do so many resting surprise attacks before the players get sick of your rampant "i catch mage off-guard". No. I'm not a fan of it. My favorite magic-style like in EarthDawn (few possibilities, round per round, better spells need multiple rounds to cast). But by now you can't change things just because your characters do rest and have time to prepare before each battle... The normal encounter should be unpredictible until a certain distance. So they have two choices: either running around buffed-up all the time, what is nearly impossible, if you look at 1min/lvl or shorter spell durations. The other way will be, that they need time to get prepared. This time shouldn't be usable unnoticed. (like: "I hear someone behind the door, so I cast: greater invisibility, stoneskin, fly, ...") So in the end, any spellcaster has to spend a few initiative rounds to prepare. This time should be the time a fighting character can use to balance damage "things" a bit. In my group, I don't have any severe problems with spellcasters and it's easy to get there. I know the spells any caster had used. So it's easy to get around that and threaten him. @ lvl 11, a wizard should have about 40 (Con +1) to 50 (Con +2) hitpoints, so if he's not invincible. A monster can do this within 1 round. So he has to save spells for his defensive. My spellcasters spend most their spells to get to the encounter. So a cleric need some cure spells, if a trap was activated. The wizard has to use levitate, etc. if he can't climb or balance good. I send in smaller encounters, just to keep them busy, as well as the old big-fat-ball trick. So if you are have an adventure with only a few encounters, you should limit the spells per day or invent a side-threat, that limits their "resting time". The Wizard, Rogue and Cleric all have out-of-combat duties, the Fighter just doesn't. There time to shine is in combat I assume, but they just can't past level 3 (once you get Scorching Ray, things start dropping).The Fighter needs to both excel at combat, and be decent outside of it. By this time, a fighter with a greatsword can deal 2d6+7 damage. It's quite the same as a 4d6 scorching ray. That doesn't include differencies in ranged touch attack (mage) vs. standard melee attack (fighter). If the fighter uses a bow instead, he can deal 2d8+8 damage and with a greater range. I understand if you don't agree, everyone plays differently and enjoys different things. But I know that there are people on these forums that agree with me, they agree that Fighters need help. Sure. We made a lot of changes to make D&D fit our prefered gamestyle. An easy way is a spell vs. spell balance and spell vs. equipment damage. YOu see the problems, when your players try to buy a 1x/day ring with either shield or enlarge. The cost for each ring: 360gp. If I were you, I wouldn't change the damage a fighter deal. Instead, I would make the following changes in regard of BAB: 1/2 BAB is added to initiative rolls. 1/2 BAB is added to AC (dodge bonus). Normal AC is transfered into damage reduction.
IbanezNinja 07-17-06, 01:22 AM	FlameLover, those are some pretty good ideas. People might acutally want to be a fighter if they had more stuff like that.
Iry 07-17-06, 03:34 AM	The Rogue, if he successfully hit with all three attacks, will deal at least 18d6 (sneak) + 3d8 (weapon) + 9 (weapon enhancement) + X (strength). So this should be about 110 damage. This doesn't include critical hits or special sneak attack feats. He can do this once per encounter. A wizard of this level could cast the following spells: chain lightning 11d6 + 1/2 damage to near creatures | reflex=half, electricity resistance useful fire ball 10d6 with radius | reflex=half Desintegrate 22d6 damage | must hit with touch attack & Fortitude for 5d6 Phantasmal killer | 2 saves to kill an enemyA Cleric could cast: Harm 110 HPs | touch attack required (AoOs), Will=half Blade Barrier 11d6 | reflex=half or even no damage Slay living kills | touch attack required (AoO), Fort = 3d6So it's up to you to compare the effect. The wizard has to make a successful touch attack and must overcome the Spellresistance. After that, the enemy need to fail with a save. So I don't know, why non-spellcasters are too weak. Where are you getting these numbers from? Why isn't the Wizard or Cleric using Quicken, Twined, or Admixtured spells? Just a Wizard with Empower, Quicken and Arcane Thesis, all fairly popular feats and all well within a Wizards feat resources deals an easy 25d6 Reflex Half to everything in a wide area. It goes on and on, but you're comparing a moderately capable rogue to the least and weakest any Wizard or Cleric could offer. That's not even addressing the casters superior versatility.
FlameLover 07-17-06, 04:15 AM	I just finished up a session using the BAB as damage, and it went down well. The party was doing about right for their level, and the meleers were very happy (they didn't do better than normal because i've reduced the casters Spells per Day to give the other players a shot). They now seem to be doing a much more ecuivelant amount in combat, although I can see at high levels the mage dying terribly (i'll need to boost the progression around then I think).
Cheza 07-17-06, 09:35 AM	Where are you getting these numbers from? Why isn't the Wizard or Cleric using Quicken, Twined, or Admixtured spells? Just a Wizard with Empower, Quicken and Arcane Thesis, all fairly popular feats and all well within a Wizards feat resources deals an easy 25d6 Reflex Half to everything in a wide area. It goes on and on, but you're comparing a moderately capable rogue to the least and weakest any Wizard or Cleric could offer. That's not even addressing the casters superior versatility. I play with PHB v3.5 rules about metamagic feats and not the "3x/day" usage. I don't use anyhing from the 3.0Ed. or not from the "core books". This includes eberron or other settings. So if you empower(+2) a fireball you deal 10d6+50%, what should be about 45 damage wo. successful save. If you try to use a quicken fireball in addition (+4), you're not able to cast it @ level 11. So whatever you say about 25d6, it's just a lie to me. @ flame-lover. I'm sure your players are happy. That's the same as rejoin a level 10 group as a lvl 6 half-fiend or half-celestrial fighter, without the loss of money of course (Just looting the old character). So anything he would have gained in 4 levels, doesn't replace energy resistances, SR, weapon resistance 5/magic, spell-like abilities and last but not least ability bonuses. So I show you, how much damage a group of level 11 adventurer can deal in 1 round. If you take the average HPs of monster (ca. 125 HPs), a single fighter will deal about 80 damage per round. So if I were a mage, an adequate monster just doesn't care to me, because a fighter and a monk (4 attacks per round = +32 damage just for BAB) would kill him within 1-2 rounds. So why should I use an improbable slay living for that. I have to touch that devil, hydra, etc. and risk death... By the way: Your rule inbalances TWF over THW, except you allow twice the damage bonus for the last one.