Fixing the Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fixing the Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, and Mystic Theurge [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kuroi Kenshi
12-29-05, 05:01 AM With new splatbooks, there comes a power creep. It's to be expected. However, it's not so expected that splatbook material should definitively obsolete core material, as splatbooks are meant to add variety of choice, not reduce it. In the wake of more recent splatbooks, the core multiclass prestiege classes, the Arcane Trickster, the Eldritch Knight, and the Mystic Theurge have become eclipsed by very similar, very comparable prestige classes. On top of that, use of the three core multiclass PrCs is harmful to a character without adding in other supplemental PrCs, especially PrCs that feature accellerated spellcasting progression.

The point of this thread is to propose some ways to make the three core multiclass PrCs both competitive with other multiclass PrCs and make them more viable for use in a core game, while still keeping them balanced with relation to other PrCs and the classes they are derived from.

Arane Trickster
Increase BAB to ž progression

Reasons:
Compare the Arcane Trickster with the Daggerspell Mage. With the changes in place, the AT has more sneak attack, slightly better spellcasting, and more flexibility in use of rogue skills and sneak attack. The Daggerspell Mage has more HP, has more skills, and has higher flexibility in spell use and combat applications. Both classes are rather difficult to enter for different reasons.

Formerly, the daggerspell mage also had a BAB bonus, giving it a noticable edge on the AT. Now it's more a tossup as to which class is overall better, though imo the Daggerspell Mage is still better to take to higher levels.

Eldritch Knight

Add these abilities:

Erode Spell Resistance (Su): An Eldritch Knight of 5th level or higher enhances her weapon with arcane might at will. Each successful melee attack (or ranged attack if the target is within 30 feet) she makes with her weapon against a creature with spell resistance temporarily reduces its spell resistance by 1. Unless the creature is slain, its lost spell resistance returns all at once 12 hours later.

Arcane Flurry (Ex): An Eldritch Knight of 4th level or higher learns to blend mastered spells into her attacks. The Eldritch Knight may cast a 1st-level or lower spell with a casting time of a standard action and make a full attack action as a full round action. At 6th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 2nd-level or lower spells. At 8th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 3rd-level or lower spells. At 10th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 4th-level or lower spells.

Reasons:
Compare the Eldritch Knight with the the Knight Phantom. The Knight Phantom has more HP, can ignore arcane spell failure in light armor, and has many specific special abilities that save lower level spell slots. The Eldritch knight has more free feats, can better deal with spell resistance, and can burn through his/her lower level spellslots faster. One could also compare the EK with the Illithid Slayer (also known as the Slayer in the SRD). Even with these changes the Slayer comparison is a joke, as it is just an incredible class.

Mystic Theurge

Increase HD to d6, make good saves fortitude and will.

Add ability:

Dual-cast (ex): Starting at 2nd level, the Mystic Theurge learns to better mix her arsenal of divine and arcane spells. As a full round action, the Mystic Theurge may cast an arcane spell and a divine spell of 1st-level or lower, so long as both spells have a casting time of a standard action. At level 4, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 2nd-level or lower. At level 6, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 3rd-level or lower. At level 8, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 4th-level or lower. At level 10, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 5th-level or lower.

Reasons:
Compare the Mystic Theurge with the Arcane Hierophant. The MT can be applied to any divine class rather than just druids or just clerics, is easier to enter, has better saves, and has the ability to cast lower-level spells en-masse. The AH ignores arcane spell failure in druid-approved armor, has better BAB, advances wildshape, advances animal companion, and has better skills. The AH still comes ahead for druids, but the gap is lessened, and a wizard/druid/AH isn't quite so awesomely awesome compared to a wizard/cleric/MT.
Millennium
12-29-05, 11:25 AM Is it that the 'core' PrCs are weak, or that the 'non-core' PrCs are broken?
Jerks
12-29-05, 11:52 AM Yep, I had similar thoughts after reading the Daggerspell Mage. That prestige class is crazy and completely outclasses some of the other gish classes out there. I went back and redesigned the Bladesinger extensively after reading the daggerspell mage. I thought that the Arcane Trickster held up relatively well considering it retains full casting progression.

Both the Spellsword and the Eldritch Knight could benefit from 3/4 BAB and greater spell progression. I must say that the mechanic for gradually reducing ASF by percentages is suboptimal compared to say the Warmage's ability to get light and medium armor, with heavy armor only a feat away.
Kuroi Kenshi
12-29-05, 04:26 PM Is it that the 'core' PrCs are weak, or that the 'non-core' PrCs are broken?I think it's some of both. As I said, as-is, use of the mentioned core PrCs by themselves is harmful to a character that otherwise would have stuck with one of the component classes (and taken a PrC or PrCs that further specialize that class role). That is in itself a problem.

But some of the new PrCs are too powerful, as well. The arcane hierophant is, I think, broken. Advancing both of the most powerful class features of the druid is way too good, as is the ASF ignore and retained druid skill progression. It loses too little compared to its component classes, and is only marginally harder to enter than the MT.

The daggerspell mage is also really, really excellent, but at least it takes a casting and sneak attack hit compared with its component classes. If anything, I think that it has 6 skillpoints/level is a bit too much. The class seems specialized more for combat, not for skill use.

If you adapt the Slayer for arcane, the way other casting PrCs (including daggerspell mage) are suggested to be adapted to divine or psionics, it makes both the EK and the KP look like complete garbage. The KP isn't too bad, really, when comparing it to an EK paired with some spellsword levels. But comparing it alone as a class vs EK alone, it's much better.

Just as a side note, the Fochulyn Lyricist (sp) is powerful as a class, but it is so hard to enter that a character pays dearly for it throughought most of their career. So I don't think it's a problem class.

I thought that the Arcane Trickster held up relatively well considering it retains full casting progression. Yeah, that's why I think the AT only needs a BAB increase to make it hard for a person to decide which class to go with.
PerennialRook
12-31-05, 04:57 AM Harmful? Maybe you should ask this question in the character optimization boards. If there is no winning in DnD why are you concerned about one PrC being a little less powerful than another? If you change a few PrCs what about the others? Where do you stop?
Xeviat-DM
12-31-05, 09:41 AM You stop when PrCs are balanced to the point that a PC will think twice about joining a PrC and leaving their class behind.
Jerks
12-31-05, 11:01 AM You stop when PrCs are balanced to the point that a PC will think twice about joining a PrC and leaving their class behind.

My thoughts exactly. I don't want to discourage players from multi-classing or going into a prestige class, but I do think that every class should offer something that gives the player pause when he considers spreading his wings in another direction.

Monk and Druid are two classes that do this exceptionally well (maybe too well). Both offer scaling abilities and new abilities to make the class exciting and fresh all the way through. The Paladin peaks too soon. Gaining all of it's class abilities in the first couple of levels. Sure you get some scaling, but after level 5 you'll have to lean on your feats and spells for new play techniques. The Fighter brings up the rear in this contest. Sure he gets feats, but nifty prestige class abilities will almost always be more enticing than bonus feats.
Kuroi Kenshi
01-02-06, 03:22 AM Harmful? Maybe you should ask this question in the character optimization boards.What question? It was stated as fact.

If there is no winning in DnD why are you concerned about one PrC being a little less powerful than another?I happen to think mixed class PrCs are interesting. But more importantly, most PrCs are not directly comparable as they are each dedicated to filling out a specific conceptual niche. As I mentioned in the first post, the ones addressed in this thread are comparable with at least one other PrC, and have some pretty obvious discrepancies with regard to eachother.

The best example is the arcane hierophant, whom is basically a mystic theurge that also has better HD, better BAB, better skills, advancement of the most powerful druid class features, and reduction of the restriction on arcane spellcasting. After a quick comparison it's so damn obvious that as a druid/arcane caster, the mystic theurge would only be used after all of the arcane hierophant levels have been taken, and that's it. There is no way a player could consider using the mystic theurge otherwise unless he/she purposefully wanted to weaken his/her character, as the mystic theurge offers virtually nothing over the arcane hierophant, while the arcane hierophant offers so much more. If that seems okay to you...well, I suppose we don't share viewpoints on what constitutes decent game balance.

And yes, there are some other PrCs out there that are similar to eachother, like some archer PrCs. Though even many of those are broken up into different archery-related niches. Plus I wanted to keep the scope of this thread somewhat focused.

If you change a few PrCs what about the others? Where do you stop?The only others that would need change are those that are extremely similar in concept or share important class features while having obvious discrepancies between eachother, such that only one of the two (or more) PrC choices available seems worthy. You stop not only when a player has to consider whether or not he wants to use a PrC over his/her core class(es), but also when a player has to stop and consider which PrC to pick when there is more than one that supports a given niche, rather than seeing one too-obvious advantageous choice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kuroi Kenshi 12-29-05, 05:01 AM	With new splatbooks, there comes a power creep. It's to be expected. However, it's not so expected that splatbook material should definitively obsolete core material, as splatbooks are meant to add variety of choice, not reduce it. In the wake of more recent splatbooks, the core multiclass prestiege classes, the Arcane Trickster, the Eldritch Knight, and the Mystic Theurge have become eclipsed by very similar, very comparable prestige classes. On top of that, use of the three core multiclass PrCs is harmful to a character without adding in other supplemental PrCs, especially PrCs that feature accellerated spellcasting progression. The point of this thread is to propose some ways to make the three core multiclass PrCs both competitive with other multiclass PrCs and make them more viable for use in a core game, while still keeping them balanced with relation to other PrCs and the classes they are derived from. Arane Trickster Increase BAB to ž progression Reasons: Compare the Arcane Trickster with the Daggerspell Mage. With the changes in place, the AT has more sneak attack, slightly better spellcasting, and more flexibility in use of rogue skills and sneak attack. The Daggerspell Mage has more HP, has more skills, and has higher flexibility in spell use and combat applications. Both classes are rather difficult to enter for different reasons. Formerly, the daggerspell mage also had a BAB bonus, giving it a noticable edge on the AT. Now it's more a tossup as to which class is overall better, though imo the Daggerspell Mage is still better to take to higher levels. Eldritch Knight Add these abilities: Erode Spell Resistance (Su): An Eldritch Knight of 5th level or higher enhances her weapon with arcane might at will. Each successful melee attack (or ranged attack if the target is within 30 feet) she makes with her weapon against a creature with spell resistance temporarily reduces its spell resistance by 1. Unless the creature is slain, its lost spell resistance returns all at once 12 hours later. Arcane Flurry (Ex): An Eldritch Knight of 4th level or higher learns to blend mastered spells into her attacks. The Eldritch Knight may cast a 1st-level or lower spell with a casting time of a standard action and make a full attack action as a full round action. At 6th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 2nd-level or lower spells. At 8th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 3rd-level or lower spells. At 10th level, the Eldritch Knight may arcane flurry using 4th-level or lower spells. Reasons: Compare the Eldritch Knight with the the Knight Phantom. The Knight Phantom has more HP, can ignore arcane spell failure in light armor, and has many specific special abilities that save lower level spell slots. The Eldritch knight has more free feats, can better deal with spell resistance, and can burn through his/her lower level spellslots faster. One could also compare the EK with the Illithid Slayer (also known as the Slayer in the SRD). Even with these changes the Slayer comparison is a joke, as it is just an incredible class. Mystic Theurge Increase HD to d6, make good saves fortitude and will. Add ability: Dual-cast (ex): Starting at 2nd level, the Mystic Theurge learns to better mix her arsenal of divine and arcane spells. As a full round action, the Mystic Theurge may cast an arcane spell and a divine spell of 1st-level or lower, so long as both spells have a casting time of a standard action. At level 4, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 2nd-level or lower. At level 6, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 3rd-level or lower. At level 8, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 4th-level or lower. At level 10, the Mystic Theurge may dual-cast spells of 5th-level or lower. Reasons: Compare the Mystic Theurge with the Arcane Hierophant. The MT can be applied to any divine class rather than just druids or just clerics, is easier to enter, has better saves, and has the ability to cast lower-level spells en-masse. The AH ignores arcane spell failure in druid-approved armor, has better BAB, advances wildshape, advances animal companion, and has better skills. The AH still comes ahead for druids, but the gap is lessened, and a wizard/druid/AH isn't quite so awesomely awesome compared to a wizard/cleric/MT.
Millennium 12-29-05, 11:25 AM	Is it that the 'core' PrCs are weak, or that the 'non-core' PrCs are broken?
Jerks 12-29-05, 11:52 AM	Yep, I had similar thoughts after reading the Daggerspell Mage. That prestige class is crazy and completely outclasses some of the other gish classes out there. I went back and redesigned the Bladesinger extensively after reading the daggerspell mage. I thought that the Arcane Trickster held up relatively well considering it retains full casting progression. Both the Spellsword and the Eldritch Knight could benefit from 3/4 BAB and greater spell progression. I must say that the mechanic for gradually reducing ASF by percentages is suboptimal compared to say the Warmage's ability to get light and medium armor, with heavy armor only a feat away.
Kuroi Kenshi 12-29-05, 04:26 PM	Is it that the 'core' PrCs are weak, or that the 'non-core' PrCs are broken?I think it's some of both. As I said, as-is, use of the mentioned core PrCs by themselves is harmful to a character that otherwise would have stuck with one of the component classes (and taken a PrC or PrCs that further specialize that class role). That is in itself a problem. But some of the new PrCs are too powerful, as well. The arcane hierophant is, I think, broken. Advancing both of the most powerful class features of the druid is way too good, as is the ASF ignore and retained druid skill progression. It loses too little compared to its component classes, and is only marginally harder to enter than the MT. The daggerspell mage is also really, really excellent, but at least it takes a casting and sneak attack hit compared with its component classes. If anything, I think that it has 6 skillpoints/level is a bit too much. The class seems specialized more for combat, not for skill use. If you adapt the Slayer for arcane, the way other casting PrCs (including daggerspell mage) are suggested to be adapted to divine or psionics, it makes both the EK and the KP look like complete garbage. The KP isn't too bad, really, when comparing it to an EK paired with some spellsword levels. But comparing it alone as a class vs EK alone, it's much better. Just as a side note, the Fochulyn Lyricist (sp) is powerful as a class, but it is so hard to enter that a character pays dearly for it throughought most of their career. So I don't think it's a problem class. I thought that the Arcane Trickster held up relatively well considering it retains full casting progression. Yeah, that's why I think the AT only needs a BAB increase to make it hard for a person to decide which class to go with.
PerennialRook 12-31-05, 04:57 AM	Harmful? Maybe you should ask this question in the character optimization boards. If there is no winning in DnD why are you concerned about one PrC being a little less powerful than another? If you change a few PrCs what about the others? Where do you stop?
Xeviat-DM 12-31-05, 09:41 AM	You stop when PrCs are balanced to the point that a PC will think twice about joining a PrC and leaving their class behind.
Jerks 12-31-05, 11:01 AM	You stop when PrCs are balanced to the point that a PC will think twice about joining a PrC and leaving their class behind. My thoughts exactly. I don't want to discourage players from multi-classing or going into a prestige class, but I do think that every class should offer something that gives the player pause when he considers spreading his wings in another direction. Monk and Druid are two classes that do this exceptionally well (maybe too well). Both offer scaling abilities and new abilities to make the class exciting and fresh all the way through. The Paladin peaks too soon. Gaining all of it's class abilities in the first couple of levels. Sure you get some scaling, but after level 5 you'll have to lean on your feats and spells for new play techniques. The Fighter brings up the rear in this contest. Sure he gets feats, but nifty prestige class abilities will almost always be more enticing than bonus feats.
Kuroi Kenshi 01-02-06, 03:22 AM	Harmful? Maybe you should ask this question in the character optimization boards.What question? It was stated as fact. If there is no winning in DnD why are you concerned about one PrC being a little less powerful than another?I happen to think mixed class PrCs are interesting. But more importantly, most PrCs are not directly comparable as they are each dedicated to filling out a specific conceptual niche. As I mentioned in the first post, the ones addressed in this thread are comparable with at least one other PrC, and have some pretty obvious discrepancies with regard to eachother. The best example is the arcane hierophant, whom is basically a mystic theurge that also has better HD, better BAB, better skills, advancement of the most powerful druid class features, and reduction of the restriction on arcane spellcasting. After a quick comparison it's so damn obvious that as a druid/arcane caster, the mystic theurge would only be used after all of the arcane hierophant levels have been taken, and that's it. There is no way a player could consider using the mystic theurge otherwise unless he/she purposefully wanted to weaken his/her character, as the mystic theurge offers virtually nothing over the arcane hierophant, while the arcane hierophant offers so much more. If that seems okay to you...well, I suppose we don't share viewpoints on what constitutes decent game balance. And yes, there are some other PrCs out there that are similar to eachother, like some archer PrCs. Though even many of those are broken up into different archery-related niches. Plus I wanted to keep the scope of this thread somewhat focused. If you change a few PrCs what about the others? Where do you stop?The only others that would need change are those that are extremely similar in concept or share important class features while having obvious discrepancies between eachother, such that only one of the two (or more) PrC choices available seems worthy. You stop not only when a player has to consider whether or not he wants to use a PrC over his/her core class(es), but also when a player has to stop and consider which PrC to pick when there is more than one that supports a given niche, rather than seeing one too-obvious advantageous choice.