Flaw: Human [Archive] - Wizards Community

Flaw: Human [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
X-Codes
11-18-06, 05:52 AM Something interesting I thought of. Instead of the Human gaining a bonus feat as a racial bonus, why not count it as a flaw instead to promote the other PHB races?
CryoSilver
11-18-06, 06:04 AM Because that would make humans useless.
Dunamin
11-18-06, 09:23 AM Why would you humans to be at an overall disadvantage in relation to the other PHB races?
Standard PC races are supposed to be somewhat equally advantageous, for the sake of fairness and balance.
Ryngard
11-18-06, 10:26 AM I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free.

Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them.
Gorteck
11-18-06, 10:54 AM I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free.

Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them.

Err you need to meet my friend who knows how to make the human the best Core race ... :D
X-Codes
11-18-06, 06:40 PM I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free.

Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them.
Half-Orcs are clearly the weakest and Half-Elves are actually kinda usable, but in about 80% of builds you're better off being a Human than something else, and in another 15% being a Human is just as good as being something else. The last 5% are the few builds that absolutely require you to be a specific race (stuff like Shadowcraft Mage where race is a pre-requisite for a class, Grappler builds that are better off with the Powerful Build trait, and Bamf! fighters that typically use Thri-Kreen for the extra attacks on shadow pounces).

For some characters, taking two flaws is actually pretty rough.
theotherdraxen
11-18-06, 07:02 PM I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free.

Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them.

Humans are actually one of the most powerful races, especially if you're going for a massive multi-class combo. Plus, that first bonus feat puts you at least a level ahead of the other characters in your feat tree.

They're tough for the same reason that fighters are tough at low levels (two level dip for bonus feats).

Edit: To the OP, are you suggesting that an Elf could be made into a human by taking this flaw? Or are all humans penalized by being forced to spend one of their two flaws to gain the feat they normally have for free?
Voldar_Mecorthio
11-18-06, 09:55 PM I think he means that instead of humans getting a feat, they get a flaw. Ruins the race pointlessly. I agree that humans are the default race for min/maxers, but that doesn't mean that you have to cripple them.
Deathmond
11-18-06, 10:55 PM Well, for every Flaw you get a feat...so you'd still be a feat ahead yes? Though I agree, it's un-needed.
X-Codes
11-19-06, 12:45 AM I think he means that instead of humans getting a feat, they get a flaw. Ruins the race pointlessly. I agree that humans are the default race for min/maxers, but that doesn't mean that you have to cripple them.
They get the benefits of taking a flaw without the penalties, asaide from the limit of 2 flaws per character.

I hardly consider it crippling them. Unless characters are something close to a one-trick-pony, they're going to have a hard time taking two flaws in the first place.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-19-06, 01:13 AM I find this thread title insulting.
X-Codes
11-19-06, 01:24 AM I find this thread title insulting.
As you should, meatbag. ;)
pita
11-19-06, 02:30 AM Meh.
We should now start giving traits instead of those ridiculous racism races that do not include an elf and an orc loving each other.
Half-Elf:
One of your parents was an elf.
+2 DEX, -2 CON,
Favored class changes to Wizard,
Gain +1 to listen, spot, and search
Lose all other racial abilities.
Half-Orc:
One of your parents was effing ugly.
+2 Strength, -2 Int -2 cha
Lose all other racial abilities.
Balanced like the original, I say.
X-Codes
11-19-06, 03:00 AM Thats not a terrible idea, although I'm not as big of a fan of traits...

It could be something like...

Trait: Orc Heritage
Bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to your Strength score. If you are a Humanoid, you gain the Orc subtype.
Drawback: You take a -2 penalty to your Intelligence score, and a -2 penalty to all charisma-based skill checks when dealing with non-orcs.

Trait: Elf Heritage
Bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Gather Information, Spot, Search, Listen, and on saving throws against Enchantments.
Drawback: You take a -2 penalty to Constitution.

Yeah, I'm not so good with traits.
mkill
11-19-06, 05:55 AM Something interesting I thought of. Instead of the Human gaining a bonus feat as a racial bonus, why not count it as a flaw instead to promote the other PHB races?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a majority of PCs being human. After all, a majority of the population in nearly every fantasy world is human, and the D&D player base is 100% human (to my knowledge). And it is impossible for a human player to screw up properly roleplaying a human, while I've seen a lot of badly played elves, dwarves, fairies, vampires, and whatnot.

I completely don't care if the reason that most PCs are human is that they allow for the broadest range of character concepts, because humans are supposedly 5% more powerful, whether most players are just bored of the standard nonhuman PC races or whether most players just like to stick with what they know.

* If it's not broken don't fix it. *
JulesCARV
11-19-06, 04:35 PM So basically, a human gets a bonus feat for free, but already counts as having a flaw "used up," so she can only take one more flaw, whereas a nonhuman doesn't get a bonus feat, but can take two flaws?

Hmm... I think that, if flaws are used liberally, this would tend to underpower humans slightly. They'd still be viable, but the human bonus feat would just be a nice benefit -- basically, equivalent to not having a flaw of one's choice -- rather than being a real "accelerator" to getting into prestige classes, advancing along feat trees, etc, which is the main benefit of being human
X-Codes
11-19-06, 07:26 PM And it is impossible for a human player to screw up properly roleplaying a human, while I've seen a lot of badly played elves, dwarves, fairies, vampires, and whatnot.
How can you roleplay any race badly? If humans can't be stereotypes, then other races shouldn't have to be either.
I completely don't care if the reason that most PCs are human is that they allow for the broadest range of character concepts, because humans are supposedly 5% more powerful, whether most players are just bored of the standard nonhuman PC races or whether most players just like to stick with what they know.

* If it's not broken don't fix it. *
It's not so much that humans are 5% more powerful, it's that humans are bland. I wouldn't mind the games being a little more LotRish in that theres not too terribly many humans in the party, but more non-human humanoids. Humans are still better generalists because they only have to deal with the penalties of one flaw at most, have more skill points, and still have the very rare Favored Class: Any.
claypigeons
11-20-06, 02:23 PM It's not so much that humans are 5% more powerful, it's that humans are bland.

That's kind of the point. Humans can be pretty good at everything. There are still other races that might do that one exact thing better than humans. Take racial prestige classes, for example. Dwarven defender, deep warden, Champion of Corellon... One feat (and skill points, though depending on the class, it's negligible. Fighters dont care. But rogues love 'em) isnt ~THAT~ powerful. It's useful. Not game breaking.

I wouldn't mind the games being a little more LotRish in that theres not too terribly many humans in the party, but more non-human humanoids.

If you want a game like this, DM one. No one can stop you.
theotherdraxen
11-20-06, 09:30 PM If you want a game like this, DM one. No one can stop you.

Except for a group of players that don't want to play.

Though I very much agree with X-Codes here. Humans are pretty much the epitome of generic: there isn't anything truly difinitive about them, and it's kind of painful that the only real motivation to play a human are their mechanical advantage, which while they are good, aren't really difinitively better than other races. Plus, there aren't any written role-play advantages to being a human either. You don't live long, you have no cultural definition (they don't even give us examples of human names!) and your race doesn't give you any cool powers to make up for all the grey blah.

I had a DM once that actually made humans interesting: they were an extraplanar race that arrived shortly and, in some kind of land struggle, beat the crap out of some elves so they could have a place to live. It was pretty awesome.

On topic: I think that a flaw doesn't help to flavor humans properly. I'd rather see something that really engrains them as something as unique as elves. Maybe even some racial modifiers and abilities that other races simply don't have (humans can potentially outrun any animal, IIRC).
hiryuu
11-21-06, 06:19 PM Humans are my favorite animal. The problem with humans, in an RPG context, at least, there's such a sheer variety of awesomeness and specialization inherent in many kinds of humans that you can't pack it all on a single page in a generic book or else the reader might explode from the absolute badassadery. Do you like that word? I made it up. Just now. Fear my human powers.

Humans in each setting (and country) are going to be vastly different. I mean, check it out: I've got no less than four different naming conventions, languages, and sets of holidays on my street alone, so of course there's no naming examples, it's going to be different in almost every town.
theotherdraxen
11-21-06, 11:32 PM Still, humans are kind of the 'grey' race: they don't have any unique or cool powers, and in most settings, don't have an interesting enough history besides 'we beat the hell out of all the other humanoid turds, so we rule this planet'.

Well, that actually is pretty cool, but still, it would be nice if humans had some actual special abilites that were human only. All they get is a bonus feat, extra skill points, and the ability to more easily multi-class. While all are powerful, nothing is truly unique about this. Anything achievable by a human is achievable by any other race. Humans just don't have to pay full price.
hiryuu
11-22-06, 01:38 AM Still, humans are kind of the 'grey' race: they don't have any unique or cool powers, and in most settings, don't have an interesting enough history besides 'we beat the hell out of all the other humanoid turds, so we rule this planet'.

Well, that actually is pretty cool, but still, it would be nice if humans had some actual special abilites that were human only. All they get is a bonus feat, extra skill points, and the ability to more easily multi-class. While all are powerful, nothing is truly unique about this. Anything achievable by a human is achievable by any other race. Humans just don't have to pay full price.

In the setting I normally run, humans are the only ones who get to use any form of magic they desire. In fact, not being a human is a flaw.

Not the Human [General]
You are not human, not even in the slightest. You may have a human face (or human-ish), but the rest of you is up for grabs. Somehow…. That gives you more feats…..?
Effect: You get to treat your intelligence score as if it were 2 points lower for the purpose of gaining skill points (this means 4 fewer skill points at first level and 1 fewer skill point at each additional level, if you didn’t get it the first time). You also can’t become a magus, talent, occultist, summoner, or ritualist, or whatever other magical backgrounds are available (you know, you can't take the Magical Background feat and you can't drop levels in the associated class later), and you can’t use traces or idols (you can use relics, but that's only as useful as a relic's curse). Them’s the breaks. The upside is that you get to treat this flaw like two flaws (okay, for you rules-monkeys out there, it means you get two feats instead of one, and you can’t benefit from any other flaws any more).
BeefotronX
11-23-06, 04:57 AM IMC, I give humans skill familiarity with one skill (making it always a class skill no matter what class they go into), and weapon familiarity with one exotic weapon. Which skill and weapon they're familiar with depends on what is their home country.

For example, humans from country A are familiar with the bastard sword and Knowledge (Geography), while humans from country B are familiar with the hand crossbow and Survival.
High Octane
11-24-06, 05:31 PM Did the elves put you up to making this thread?
DarkRhystar
11-24-06, 07:57 PM Penalizing Humans is bad.

Humans manage to be both versatile and awesome without a bazillion special abilities and random traits like the other races get. Seriously, make a list of all the stuff a Dwarf or Elf gets... then make a list of what a Human gets and compare them for length. The difference is absurd.

Bonuses make non-humans look good. :ton:

By contrast...

Humans make their bonuses look good. :cool:

As an aside...

I had a DM once that actually made humans interesting: they were an extraplanar race that arrived shortly and, in some kind of land struggle, beat the crap out of some elves so they could have a place to live. It was pretty awesome.

That's partially the story behind the FR kingdom of Cormyr. The Dragons were beaten and driven off by the Elves and then irony set in as the Elves were driven off by the Humans in the exact same manner as they'd done to the Dragons.

This post is brought to you by the Elected Leaders For an Elfless Attendence To Everything Regarding Society or ELFEATERS for short.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
X-Codes 11-18-06, 05:52 AM	Something interesting I thought of. Instead of the Human gaining a bonus feat as a racial bonus, why not count it as a flaw instead to promote the other PHB races?
CryoSilver 11-18-06, 06:04 AM	Because that would make humans useless.
Dunamin 11-18-06, 09:23 AM	Why would you humans to be at an overall disadvantage in relation to the other PHB races? Standard PC races are supposed to be somewhat equally advantageous, for the sake of fairness and balance.
Ryngard 11-18-06, 10:26 AM	I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free. Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them.
Gorteck 11-18-06, 10:54 AM	I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free. Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them. Err you need to meet my friend who knows how to make the human the best Core race ... :D
X-Codes 11-18-06, 06:40 PM	I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free. Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them. Half-Orcs are clearly the weakest and Half-Elves are actually kinda usable, but in about 80% of builds you're better off being a Human than something else, and in another 15% being a Human is just as good as being something else. The last 5% are the few builds that absolutely require you to be a specific race (stuff like Shadowcraft Mage where race is a pre-requisite for a class, Grappler builds that are better off with the Powerful Build trait, and Bamf! fighters that typically use Thri-Kreen for the extra attacks on shadow pounces). For some characters, taking two flaws is actually pretty rough.
theotherdraxen 11-18-06, 07:02 PM	I agree with the other two posters. That's just silly. If anything Humans should get something else. In my world they gain Able Learner (RoDestiny) for free. Humans, Half-Elves and the poor Half-Orcs are the weakest. Why further weaken them. Humans are actually one of the most powerful races, especially if you're going for a massive multi-class combo. Plus, that first bonus feat puts you at least a level ahead of the other characters in your feat tree. They're tough for the same reason that fighters are tough at low levels (two level dip for bonus feats). Edit: To the OP, are you suggesting that an Elf could be made into a human by taking this flaw? Or are all humans penalized by being forced to spend one of their two flaws to gain the feat they normally have for free?
Voldar_Mecorthio 11-18-06, 09:55 PM	I think he means that instead of humans getting a feat, they get a flaw. Ruins the race pointlessly. I agree that humans are the default race for min/maxers, but that doesn't mean that you have to cripple them.
Deathmond 11-18-06, 10:55 PM	Well, for every Flaw you get a feat...so you'd still be a feat ahead yes? Though I agree, it's un-needed.
X-Codes 11-19-06, 12:45 AM	I think he means that instead of humans getting a feat, they get a flaw. Ruins the race pointlessly. I agree that humans are the default race for min/maxers, but that doesn't mean that you have to cripple them. They get the benefits of taking a flaw without the penalties, asaide from the limit of 2 flaws per character. I hardly consider it crippling them. Unless characters are something close to a one-trick-pony, they're going to have a hard time taking two flaws in the first place.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-19-06, 01:13 AM	I find this thread title insulting.
X-Codes 11-19-06, 01:24 AM	I find this thread title insulting. As you should, meatbag. ;)
pita 11-19-06, 02:30 AM	Meh. We should now start giving traits instead of those ridiculous racism races that do not include an elf and an orc loving each other. Half-Elf: One of your parents was an elf. +2 DEX, -2 CON, Favored class changes to Wizard, Gain +1 to listen, spot, and search Lose all other racial abilities. Half-Orc: One of your parents was effing ugly. +2 Strength, -2 Int -2 cha Lose all other racial abilities. Balanced like the original, I say.
X-Codes 11-19-06, 03:00 AM	Thats not a terrible idea, although I'm not as big of a fan of traits... It could be something like... Trait: Orc Heritage Bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to your Strength score. If you are a Humanoid, you gain the Orc subtype. Drawback: You take a -2 penalty to your Intelligence score, and a -2 penalty to all charisma-based skill checks when dealing with non-orcs. Trait: Elf Heritage Bonus: You gain a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Gather Information, Spot, Search, Listen, and on saving throws against Enchantments. Drawback: You take a -2 penalty to Constitution. Yeah, I'm not so good with traits.
mkill 11-19-06, 05:55 AM	Something interesting I thought of. Instead of the Human gaining a bonus feat as a racial bonus, why not count it as a flaw instead to promote the other PHB races? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a majority of PCs being human. After all, a majority of the population in nearly every fantasy world is human, and the D&D player base is 100% human (to my knowledge). And it is impossible for a human player to screw up properly roleplaying a human, while I've seen a lot of badly played elves, dwarves, fairies, vampires, and whatnot. I completely don't care if the reason that most PCs are human is that they allow for the broadest range of character concepts, because humans are supposedly 5% more powerful, whether most players are just bored of the standard nonhuman PC races or whether most players just like to stick with what they know. * If it's not broken don't fix it. *
JulesCARV 11-19-06, 04:35 PM	So basically, a human gets a bonus feat for free, but already counts as having a flaw "used up," so she can only take one more flaw, whereas a nonhuman doesn't get a bonus feat, but can take two flaws? Hmm... I think that, if flaws are used liberally, this would tend to underpower humans slightly. They'd still be viable, but the human bonus feat would just be a nice benefit -- basically, equivalent to not having a flaw of one's choice -- rather than being a real "accelerator" to getting into prestige classes, advancing along feat trees, etc, which is the main benefit of being human
X-Codes 11-19-06, 07:26 PM	And it is impossible for a human player to screw up properly roleplaying a human, while I've seen a lot of badly played elves, dwarves, fairies, vampires, and whatnot. How can you roleplay any race badly? If humans can't be stereotypes, then other races shouldn't have to be either. I completely don't care if the reason that most PCs are human is that they allow for the broadest range of character concepts, because humans are supposedly 5% more powerful, whether most players are just bored of the standard nonhuman PC races or whether most players just like to stick with what they know. * If it's not broken don't fix it. * It's not so much that humans are 5% more powerful, it's that humans are bland. I wouldn't mind the games being a little more LotRish in that theres not too terribly many humans in the party, but more non-human humanoids. Humans are still better generalists because they only have to deal with the penalties of one flaw at most, have more skill points, and still have the very rare Favored Class: Any.
claypigeons 11-20-06, 02:23 PM	It's not so much that humans are 5% more powerful, it's that humans are bland. That's kind of the point. Humans can be pretty good at everything. There are still other races that might do that one exact thing better than humans. Take racial prestige classes, for example. Dwarven defender, deep warden, Champion of Corellon... One feat (and skill points, though depending on the class, it's negligible. Fighters dont care. But rogues love 'em) isnt ~THAT~ powerful. It's useful. Not game breaking. I wouldn't mind the games being a little more LotRish in that theres not too terribly many humans in the party, but more non-human humanoids. If you want a game like this, DM one. No one can stop you.
theotherdraxen 11-20-06, 09:30 PM	If you want a game like this, DM one. No one can stop you. Except for a group of players that don't want to play. Though I very much agree with X-Codes here. Humans are pretty much the epitome of generic: there isn't anything truly difinitive about them, and it's kind of painful that the only real motivation to play a human are their mechanical advantage, which while they are good, aren't really difinitively better than other races. Plus, there aren't any written role-play advantages to being a human either. You don't live long, you have no cultural definition (they don't even give us examples of human names!) and your race doesn't give you any cool powers to make up for all the grey blah. I had a DM once that actually made humans interesting: they were an extraplanar race that arrived shortly and, in some kind of land struggle, beat the crap out of some elves so they could have a place to live. It was pretty awesome. On topic: I think that a flaw doesn't help to flavor humans properly. I'd rather see something that really engrains them as something as unique as elves. Maybe even some racial modifiers and abilities that other races simply don't have (humans can potentially outrun any animal, IIRC).
hiryuu 11-21-06, 06:19 PM	Humans are my favorite animal. The problem with humans, in an RPG context, at least, there's such a sheer variety of awesomeness and specialization inherent in many kinds of humans that you can't pack it all on a single page in a generic book or else the reader might explode from the absolute badassadery. Do you like that word? I made it up. Just now. Fear my human powers. Humans in each setting (and country) are going to be vastly different. I mean, check it out: I've got no less than four different naming conventions, languages, and sets of holidays on my street alone, so of course there's no naming examples, it's going to be different in almost every town.
theotherdraxen 11-21-06, 11:32 PM	Still, humans are kind of the 'grey' race: they don't have any unique or cool powers, and in most settings, don't have an interesting enough history besides 'we beat the hell out of all the other humanoid turds, so we rule this planet'. Well, that actually is pretty cool, but still, it would be nice if humans had some actual special abilites that were human only. All they get is a bonus feat, extra skill points, and the ability to more easily multi-class. While all are powerful, nothing is truly unique about this. Anything achievable by a human is achievable by any other race. Humans just don't have to pay full price.
hiryuu 11-22-06, 01:38 AM	Still, humans are kind of the 'grey' race: they don't have any unique or cool powers, and in most settings, don't have an interesting enough history besides 'we beat the hell out of all the other humanoid turds, so we rule this planet'. Well, that actually is pretty cool, but still, it would be nice if humans had some actual special abilites that were human only. All they get is a bonus feat, extra skill points, and the ability to more easily multi-class. While all are powerful, nothing is truly unique about this. Anything achievable by a human is achievable by any other race. Humans just don't have to pay full price. In the setting I normally run, humans are the only ones who get to use any form of magic they desire. In fact, not being a human is a flaw. Not the Human [General] You are not human, not even in the slightest. You may have a human face (or human-ish), but the rest of you is up for grabs. Somehow…. That gives you more feats…..? Effect: You get to treat your intelligence score as if it were 2 points lower for the purpose of gaining skill points (this means 4 fewer skill points at first level and 1 fewer skill point at each additional level, if you didn’t get it the first time). You also can’t become a magus, talent, occultist, summoner, or ritualist, or whatever other magical backgrounds are available (you know, you can't take the Magical Background feat and you can't drop levels in the associated class later), and you can’t use traces or idols (you can use relics, but that's only as useful as a relic's curse). Them’s the breaks. The upside is that you get to treat this flaw like two flaws (okay, for you rules-monkeys out there, it means you get two feats instead of one, and you can’t benefit from any other flaws any more).
BeefotronX 11-23-06, 04:57 AM	IMC, I give humans skill familiarity with one skill (making it always a class skill no matter what class they go into), and weapon familiarity with one exotic weapon. Which skill and weapon they're familiar with depends on what is their home country. For example, humans from country A are familiar with the bastard sword and Knowledge (Geography), while humans from country B are familiar with the hand crossbow and Survival.
High Octane 11-24-06, 05:31 PM	Did the elves put you up to making this thread?
DarkRhystar 11-24-06, 07:57 PM	Penalizing Humans is bad. Humans manage to be both versatile and awesome without a bazillion special abilities and random traits like the other races get. Seriously, make a list of all the stuff a Dwarf or Elf gets... then make a list of what a Human gets and compare them for length. The difference is absurd. Bonuses make non-humans look good. :ton: By contrast... Humans make their bonuses look good. :cool: As an aside... I had a DM once that actually made humans interesting: they were an extraplanar race that arrived shortly and, in some kind of land struggle, beat the crap out of some elves so they could have a place to live. It was pretty awesome. That's partially the story behind the FR kingdom of Cormyr. The Dragons were beaten and driven off by the Elves and then irony set in as the Elves were driven off by the Humans in the exact same manner as they'd done to the Dragons. This post is brought to you by the Elected Leaders For an Elfless Attendence To Everything Regarding Society or ELFEATERS for short.