Fly Houserule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fly Houserule [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord_Tirian
05-22-07, 08:37 AM So, I like the Fly spell - in fact I love it... but as a DM, it's a royal PitA - because half of the monsters are unable to do anything sensible against it. in fact, you can fly at an altitude of about 150 ft. with your group, then pepper it with fireballs and arrows. And you monsters look sad. If they can do ranged, you'll just fly a bit higher, because the long-range spells have an enormous range (400+ ft.).

And this from level 5 on. I have no problem with a group on 10+ level doing this. Overland Flight is also fantastic and I've got no problems with it, but groups completely starting to fly, starting on 5th or 6th? Makes some encounters... boring.

I know that this problem stems from the versatility of fly in open terrain, compared to the classical dungeon, where this problem is not a problem at all. But only doing indoor encounters is... boring as well.

So, after reading the Bo9S, I've found Rising Phoenix as stance, and I'll probably adopt its solution:

The maximum altitude of the Fly spell is dependant on level:
5th level: 10 ft.
6th-10th level: 20 ft.
11th-15th level: 30 ft.
16th-20th level: 40 ft.
21th+ level: 50 ft.

If you have a higher distance from the ground/liquid surface, the spell immediately ends, protecting you until the end of turn with a Feather Fall.

This would be accompanied by a Fly, Greater-spell on 6th, that gives the full functionality of Fly, including higher duration... and Levitate would be useful for crossing pits again, instead of being completely obsoleted by Fly. And it keeps the thunder of actually playing a flying race.

What do you think? Should I leave Fly untouched? Give it a duration of 10 min./level (3.0-style) to offset the loss of use? Up the max. Altitudes?
Arcade
05-22-07, 09:12 AM Those are some pretty low max altitudes. If you're in an outdoor encounter, you have a chance for fighting creatures where 10 feet is not even going to put you out of melee range, let alone missile range.

Also, there are other ways to fly besides the fly spell. If you nuke the altitude, the next dragon, harpy, or other flier will do to your party exactly what you are worried about them doing. And you still have wizards with alter self who can grow wings and fly at whatever height they want.

At 5th level, if you want to use fly and a few ultra long range spells like fireball or lightning bolt, that's your contingent of spells for the day. We all know that wizards who only have to worry about a single encounter per day are going to kick everyone's butt. If they need to face four of these encounter per day, they will only be able to do this once or twice. After that, they will have to resort to ground tactics. If your party is entirely flying at 5th level, that has to be using up all the level 3 slots for the day, so they should expect to get some good rewards out of it.
Lord_Tirian
05-22-07, 03:56 PM Those are some pretty low max altitudes. If you're in an outdoor encounter, you have a chance for fighting creatures where 10 feet is not even going to put you out of melee range, let alone missile range.
Huh... yeah, I feel my beef is less with flying, but rather with the fact, that too many monsters in the MM are outclassed by flying stuff. I mean... Tarrasque, Iron Golems, Dire stuff, Dinosaurs...

My problem weren't level 5 fliers, but rather around 7-12, where the wizard can actually afford flying that often.

But as said above... the fact that many "BIG" monsters are utterly stupid, due to a lack of ranged attacks... that's my problem - not flying :)

I guess I'll leave it untouched. Perhaps I'll introduce a 10min/level version with max. Altitude of 2x level or 3x level as alternative, but not as replacement.
Arcade
05-23-07, 09:03 AM Even though the monsters are unintelligent, it doesn't mean they're going to stand there and just let themselves get blown up. After a round or two, most non-intelligent creatures will give up trying to attack flying opponents. A T-Rex isn't going to sit under a flock of brids all day roaring at them waiting for them to come down. They're going to go find something they can sink their teeth into.

And if the party opens up with missile fire, most of these unintelligent creatures will make a run for it or go for cover. In the same way they know that they can't grab on to the fliers, they also won't stick around and get blasted. If the damage is minor, they might roar for a few seconds to try and scare off the attackers. But if they start taking any serious damage or even after a round or two of minor damage, they'll leave. And the more damage they take, the faster they'll leave. Remember that you can't run when flying, so you're stuck with 90 feet per round movement. Running creatures are easily going to outdistance that.

Now, it may still take a while to get out of spell range, but your party has to think if it really wants to spend all of its blasting spells on something that is leaving anyway. If they do, feel free to do a follow up encounter with something that can fly or has ranged attacks (the first large creature was a distraction). They'll start to think about priorities instead of trying to see how much stuff they kill.
Warric
05-23-07, 02:17 PM I feel as you do about the fly spell, and I've been thinking of ways to make it less accessible. Players tend to overuse certain spells... and you can't blame them. It is so versatile a spell. No one can deny that. My ideas: give the spell a component cost much like Stoneskin or simply increase the level of the spell to say fourth or fifth level. It's still viable at those levels.

Just my two cents.
Thane26425
05-23-07, 09:59 PM My problem with flight in 3.5 is that it is actually pretty slow. If you run the numbers, most flight speeds, even allowing for faster than "walking" rates, are only a couple of miles per hour, unless I am doing the math wrong, which is not out of the question.

Flying characters aren't that hard to deal with. Give one of the target creatures a longbow or heavy crossbow with the distance enhancement. That should give the fliers a run for their money. For that matter, you say that spells can reach the higher altitudes: that cuts both ways. A caster on the ground could shoot them down.

To be really nasty give an invisible flier the ability to dispell the character's fly spell. If could get above them while they are attacking ground targets and suddenly they find their fly spell gone and facing a long drop.

If the characters are really abusing fly, send in a dragon with greater invisibility. Its faster than the characters and can do a lot of damage. Probably have them heading for the ground in a hurry.

I know a lot of folks out there don't like this kind of thing, but giving the characters a taste of their own medicine within the rules is better than changing the rules. You don't have to do it often, just once will be enough to get them to reconsider their tactics since they know at least one group has learned to counter it.
LadyAlaria
05-24-07, 12:07 AM I just did a quick calculation, and Fly lets you move about 14 mph. Unfortunately the spell description does not say whether this is ground speed or air speed, but I personally intuit that it is the latter.

(Most birds can fly at least 20 mph. Ducks can fly 30-40 mph, I'm told.)

Now, even on a calm day it's surprisingly breezy once you get above the treetops. Just looking at a few spots on weather.com shows me that perfectly still air is almost non-existent, and 5-10 mph is the norm. That's "light" weather, and even that's enough to seriously hamper the use of Fly. 15+ mph winds are common, and make Fly pretty much useless.

So you can nerf Fly just by devising a random windspeed table.
Thane26425
05-24-07, 04:13 AM I just did a quick calculation, and Fly lets you move about 14 mph. Unfortunately the spell description does not say whether this is ground speed or air speed, but I personally intuit that it is the latter.

(Most birds can fly at least 20 mph. Ducks can fly 30-40 mph, I'm told.)

Now, even on a calm day it's surprisingly breezy once you get above the treetops. Just looking at a few spots on weather.com shows me that perfectly still air is almost non-existent, and 5-10 mph is the norm. That's "light" weather, and even that's enough to seriously hamper the use of Fly. 15+ mph winds are common, and make Fly pretty much useless.

So you can nerf Fly just by devising a random windspeed table.

That's a main thing that bothered me, that most birds could fly faster than a Fly Spell. I also think that it would be air speed and not ground speed so you could fly over deep ravine and such directly and not at the speed climbing down and back up would be.

I hadn't thought about wind. Sustained wind would be a problem, but don't forget gusts. A sudden 20 to 30 mph gust could really screw up a Flier.

Anyway, I always thought that to be practical, a Fly spell should have given at least bird speed of 20 to 30 mph. A higher level version giving close to dragon flight speeds would also be interesting.
IceFractal
05-24-07, 06:03 AM Well actually, Fly (the spell) does grant a pretty decent movement speed, although flight from wings usually doesn't.

The basic formula that seems to be used is MPH = feet/round / 10, which is approximately correct. Now if you have a natural fly speed of 60', that generally gives you a 6 MPH travelling speed - but that's because you're only taking one move a round to avoid fatigue.

With a Fly spell, the movement is purely mental, so you should be able to double-move (or even run, if there aren't obstacles), resulting in up to a 24 MPH flight speed. Note, however, that Overland Flight, which actually lasts long enough to make MPH count, only results in a 16 MPH speed (or 18.2 MPH, if you want to calculate it correctly).

Incidentally, does Overland Flight overcosted to anyone else? Phantom Steed is two levels lower, lasts the same duration, and is 4-6 times faster! Sure, it doesn't achieve true flight for several more levels, but still. And for that matter, it really shouldn't be the same level as Teleport. Not to mention, that in a couple levels Wind Walk renders it obsolete.
Arcade
05-24-07, 09:11 AM For IceFractal, you can't run with Fly. It says so in the spell description.

For Thane4625, if fly is dispelled, you return to the ground as if under a feather fall, so the long drop doesn't hurt. Also, I'd say some of your encounters would encourage casting fly. If an invisible dragon starts pouncing on a party, they will try and negate the invisibility and then cast fly so the dragon doesn't have the movement advantage. And I don't think a single crossbow with distance is going to worry mid level players unless you start shooting bolts of slaying.

I think your caster on the ground is one of the better options. If the PC wizard casts flight 4 or 5 times, then the grounded wizard has 4 or 5 3rd level slots to cast that aren't flight, like lightning bolt and fireball.

Packs or hordes of creatures can spread out. If they aren't clustered up, the wizard can't nuke more than a few of them, which means the rest of the party has to use missile weapons so everyone is on even terms again.

Creatures with burrowing might be an option as well. They can tunnel into the ground waiting for a PC to land and then pounce on them. Use a bullette or a purple worm, for example. Swimmers can be used near bodies of water in the same way.

Intelligent creatures with the ability to hide can be used to make it so the characters are tracked and only attacked when they are on the ground.

Don't go overboard with these options- I mean, using spells at this level should gain you a benefit. But a few encounters where flying away isn't the answer will force the players to come up with a different solution. And intelligent opponents learning that the PCs always fly around when faced with an encounter will come up with ways to counteract that.
philipk
05-24-07, 11:15 AM For Thane4625, if fly is dispelled, you return to the ground as if under a feather fall, so the long drop doesn't hurt. Also, I'd say some of your encounters would encourage casting fly. If an invisible dragon starts pouncing on a party, they will try and negate the invisibility and then cast fly so the dragon doesn't have the movement advantage. And I don't think a single crossbow with distance is going to worry mid level players unless you start shooting bolts of slaying.

Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.

If they are more than 360 ft. up, they are going to take some falling damage as they can only feather fall for 360 maximum (60 minimum). Of course, then they could cast feather fall, but another dispel magic would = ouch.
Cheza
05-24-07, 02:09 PM Dispel Magic isn't a 100% chance of success.

If you think you have problems...
I have a wizard in my group that uses "greater invisibility", "fly" AND if things are getting hot, uses "Teleport" or "Dimension Door" on the whole group.

So you can't send monsters just to counter fly, because he uses invisibility instead/in addition. You can't argue with "low intelligence", because they summon monsters too.

I managed this with a discussion... and some changes ^__^.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Tirian 05-22-07, 08:37 AM	So, I like the Fly spell - in fact I love it... but as a DM, it's a royal PitA - because half of the monsters are unable to do anything sensible against it. in fact, you can fly at an altitude of about 150 ft. with your group, then pepper it with fireballs and arrows. And you monsters look sad. If they can do ranged, you'll just fly a bit higher, because the long-range spells have an enormous range (400+ ft.). And this from level 5 on. I have no problem with a group on 10+ level doing this. Overland Flight is also fantastic and I've got no problems with it, but groups completely starting to fly, starting on 5th or 6th? Makes some encounters... boring. I know that this problem stems from the versatility of fly in open terrain, compared to the classical dungeon, where this problem is not a problem at all. But only doing indoor encounters is... boring as well. So, after reading the Bo9S, I've found Rising Phoenix as stance, and I'll probably adopt its solution: The maximum altitude of the Fly spell is dependant on level: 5th level: 10 ft. 6th-10th level: 20 ft. 11th-15th level: 30 ft. 16th-20th level: 40 ft. 21th+ level: 50 ft. If you have a higher distance from the ground/liquid surface, the spell immediately ends, protecting you until the end of turn with a Feather Fall. This would be accompanied by a Fly, Greater-spell on 6th, that gives the full functionality of Fly, including higher duration... and Levitate would be useful for crossing pits again, instead of being completely obsoleted by Fly. And it keeps the thunder of actually playing a flying race. What do you think? Should I leave Fly untouched? Give it a duration of 10 min./level (3.0-style) to offset the loss of use? Up the max. Altitudes?
Arcade 05-22-07, 09:12 AM	Those are some pretty low max altitudes. If you're in an outdoor encounter, you have a chance for fighting creatures where 10 feet is not even going to put you out of melee range, let alone missile range. Also, there are other ways to fly besides the fly spell. If you nuke the altitude, the next dragon, harpy, or other flier will do to your party exactly what you are worried about them doing. And you still have wizards with alter self who can grow wings and fly at whatever height they want. At 5th level, if you want to use fly and a few ultra long range spells like fireball or lightning bolt, that's your contingent of spells for the day. We all know that wizards who only have to worry about a single encounter per day are going to kick everyone's butt. If they need to face four of these encounter per day, they will only be able to do this once or twice. After that, they will have to resort to ground tactics. If your party is entirely flying at 5th level, that has to be using up all the level 3 slots for the day, so they should expect to get some good rewards out of it.
Lord_Tirian 05-22-07, 03:56 PM	Those are some pretty low max altitudes. If you're in an outdoor encounter, you have a chance for fighting creatures where 10 feet is not even going to put you out of melee range, let alone missile range. Huh... yeah, I feel my beef is less with flying, but rather with the fact, that too many monsters in the MM are outclassed by flying stuff. I mean... Tarrasque, Iron Golems, Dire stuff, Dinosaurs... My problem weren't level 5 fliers, but rather around 7-12, where the wizard can actually afford flying that often. But as said above... the fact that many "BIG" monsters are utterly stupid, due to a lack of ranged attacks... that's my problem - not flying :) I guess I'll leave it untouched. Perhaps I'll introduce a 10min/level version with max. Altitude of 2x level or 3x level as alternative, but not as replacement.
Arcade 05-23-07, 09:03 AM	Even though the monsters are unintelligent, it doesn't mean they're going to stand there and just let themselves get blown up. After a round or two, most non-intelligent creatures will give up trying to attack flying opponents. A T-Rex isn't going to sit under a flock of brids all day roaring at them waiting for them to come down. They're going to go find something they can sink their teeth into. And if the party opens up with missile fire, most of these unintelligent creatures will make a run for it or go for cover. In the same way they know that they can't grab on to the fliers, they also won't stick around and get blasted. If the damage is minor, they might roar for a few seconds to try and scare off the attackers. But if they start taking any serious damage or even after a round or two of minor damage, they'll leave. And the more damage they take, the faster they'll leave. Remember that you can't run when flying, so you're stuck with 90 feet per round movement. Running creatures are easily going to outdistance that. Now, it may still take a while to get out of spell range, but your party has to think if it really wants to spend all of its blasting spells on something that is leaving anyway. If they do, feel free to do a follow up encounter with something that can fly or has ranged attacks (the first large creature was a distraction). They'll start to think about priorities instead of trying to see how much stuff they kill.
Warric 05-23-07, 02:17 PM	I feel as you do about the fly spell, and I've been thinking of ways to make it less accessible. Players tend to overuse certain spells... and you can't blame them. It is so versatile a spell. No one can deny that. My ideas: give the spell a component cost much like Stoneskin or simply increase the level of the spell to say fourth or fifth level. It's still viable at those levels. Just my two cents.
Thane26425 05-23-07, 09:59 PM	My problem with flight in 3.5 is that it is actually pretty slow. If you run the numbers, most flight speeds, even allowing for faster than "walking" rates, are only a couple of miles per hour, unless I am doing the math wrong, which is not out of the question. Flying characters aren't that hard to deal with. Give one of the target creatures a longbow or heavy crossbow with the distance enhancement. That should give the fliers a run for their money. For that matter, you say that spells can reach the higher altitudes: that cuts both ways. A caster on the ground could shoot them down. To be really nasty give an invisible flier the ability to dispell the character's fly spell. If could get above them while they are attacking ground targets and suddenly they find their fly spell gone and facing a long drop. If the characters are really abusing fly, send in a dragon with greater invisibility. Its faster than the characters and can do a lot of damage. Probably have them heading for the ground in a hurry. I know a lot of folks out there don't like this kind of thing, but giving the characters a taste of their own medicine within the rules is better than changing the rules. You don't have to do it often, just once will be enough to get them to reconsider their tactics since they know at least one group has learned to counter it.
LadyAlaria 05-24-07, 12:07 AM	I just did a quick calculation, and Fly lets you move about 14 mph. Unfortunately the spell description does not say whether this is ground speed or air speed, but I personally intuit that it is the latter. (Most birds can fly at least 20 mph. Ducks can fly 30-40 mph, I'm told.) Now, even on a calm day it's surprisingly breezy once you get above the treetops. Just looking at a few spots on weather.com shows me that perfectly still air is almost non-existent, and 5-10 mph is the norm. That's "light" weather, and even that's enough to seriously hamper the use of Fly. 15+ mph winds are common, and make Fly pretty much useless. So you can nerf Fly just by devising a random windspeed table.
Thane26425 05-24-07, 04:13 AM	I just did a quick calculation, and Fly lets you move about 14 mph. Unfortunately the spell description does not say whether this is ground speed or air speed, but I personally intuit that it is the latter. (Most birds can fly at least 20 mph. Ducks can fly 30-40 mph, I'm told.) Now, even on a calm day it's surprisingly breezy once you get above the treetops. Just looking at a few spots on weather.com shows me that perfectly still air is almost non-existent, and 5-10 mph is the norm. That's "light" weather, and even that's enough to seriously hamper the use of Fly. 15+ mph winds are common, and make Fly pretty much useless. So you can nerf Fly just by devising a random windspeed table. That's a main thing that bothered me, that most birds could fly faster than a Fly Spell. I also think that it would be air speed and not ground speed so you could fly over deep ravine and such directly and not at the speed climbing down and back up would be. I hadn't thought about wind. Sustained wind would be a problem, but don't forget gusts. A sudden 20 to 30 mph gust could really screw up a Flier. Anyway, I always thought that to be practical, a Fly spell should have given at least bird speed of 20 to 30 mph. A higher level version giving close to dragon flight speeds would also be interesting.
IceFractal 05-24-07, 06:03 AM	Well actually, Fly (the spell) does grant a pretty decent movement speed, although flight from wings usually doesn't. The basic formula that seems to be used is MPH = feet/round / 10, which is approximately correct. Now if you have a natural fly speed of 60', that generally gives you a 6 MPH travelling speed - but that's because you're only taking one move a round to avoid fatigue. With a Fly spell, the movement is purely mental, so you should be able to double-move (or even run, if there aren't obstacles), resulting in up to a 24 MPH flight speed. Note, however, that Overland Flight, which actually lasts long enough to make MPH count, only results in a 16 MPH speed (or 18.2 MPH, if you want to calculate it correctly). Incidentally, does Overland Flight overcosted to anyone else? Phantom Steed is two levels lower, lasts the same duration, and is 4-6 times faster! Sure, it doesn't achieve true flight for several more levels, but still. And for that matter, it really shouldn't be the same level as Teleport. Not to mention, that in a couple levels Wind Walk renders it obsolete.
Arcade 05-24-07, 09:11 AM	For IceFractal, you can't run with Fly. It says so in the spell description. For Thane4625, if fly is dispelled, you return to the ground as if under a feather fall, so the long drop doesn't hurt. Also, I'd say some of your encounters would encourage casting fly. If an invisible dragon starts pouncing on a party, they will try and negate the invisibility and then cast fly so the dragon doesn't have the movement advantage. And I don't think a single crossbow with distance is going to worry mid level players unless you start shooting bolts of slaying. I think your caster on the ground is one of the better options. If the PC wizard casts flight 4 or 5 times, then the grounded wizard has 4 or 5 3rd level slots to cast that aren't flight, like lightning bolt and fireball. Packs or hordes of creatures can spread out. If they aren't clustered up, the wizard can't nuke more than a few of them, which means the rest of the party has to use missile weapons so everyone is on even terms again. Creatures with burrowing might be an option as well. They can tunnel into the ground waiting for a PC to land and then pounce on them. Use a bullette or a purple worm, for example. Swimmers can be used near bodies of water in the same way. Intelligent creatures with the ability to hide can be used to make it so the characters are tracked and only attacked when they are on the ground. Don't go overboard with these options- I mean, using spells at this level should gain you a benefit. But a few encounters where flying away isn't the answer will force the players to come up with a different solution. And intelligent opponents learning that the PCs always fly around when faced with an encounter will come up with ways to counteract that.
philipk 05-24-07, 11:15 AM	For Thane4625, if fly is dispelled, you return to the ground as if under a feather fall, so the long drop doesn't hurt. Also, I'd say some of your encounters would encourage casting fly. If an invisible dragon starts pouncing on a party, they will try and negate the invisibility and then cast fly so the dragon doesn't have the movement advantage. And I don't think a single crossbow with distance is going to worry mid level players unless you start shooting bolts of slaying. Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field. If they are more than 360 ft. up, they are going to take some falling damage as they can only feather fall for 360 maximum (60 minimum). Of course, then they could cast feather fall, but another dispel magic would = ouch.
Cheza 05-24-07, 02:09 PM	Dispel Magic isn't a 100% chance of success. If you think you have problems... I have a wizard in my group that uses "greater invisibility", "fly" AND if things are getting hot, uses "Teleport" or "Dimension Door" on the whole group. So you can't send monsters just to counter fly, because he uses invisibility instead/in addition. You can't argue with "low intelligence", because they summon monsters too. I managed this with a discussion... and some changes ^__^.