Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zumarai 01-25-07, 08:37 AM	What do you think? Listen + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics Diplomacy + Gather Information = Mac Daddy? Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics
AquaticSpaceChicken 01-25-07, 08:54 AM	Sometimes I wish there were fewer skills, but what attribute are you planning to use to modify each skill? Some of the combinations are a bit too broad, I think. Mechanically inclined makes sense, but is everyone who is good at bluff good at sleight of hand also?
Galstaf, Sorcerer of Lite 01-25-07, 09:20 AM	Sometimes I wish there were fewer skills, but what attribute are you planning to use to modify each skill? Why not make them interchangable? (Other systems do it without any trouble...) Have a modifier for each skill as normal, but apply a different ability score modifier depending on the application of the skill? That way, not only could you use either Charisma or Dexterity with your Deception skill depending on whether you're trying to lie or pick a pocket, you could even take it as far as allowing a Ride check using a character's Wisdom modifier to determine if a given horse is a suitable mount just be watching how it moves (for instance), reflecting not only ability to perform a given task, but also knowledge of the task. Some of the combinations are a bit too broad, I think. Mechanically inclined makes sense, but is everyone who is good at bluff good at sleight of hand also? Not necessarily, but it helps. A lot. (That's why there's a synergy bonus in the standard rules.) There's a reason stage magicians keep talking and telling stories and cracking jokes while doing their tricks, and it's not (primarily) for the entertainment of the audience. It's so you'll focus on something other than what they're doing with their hands (or focus on the wrong hand, etc), thus allowing them to pull off the trick while being observed and still have people say, "Wow! How'd he do that?" Same thing applies when a thief might bump into someone on the street and apologize profusely, ask if the person is okay (a non-threatening excuse to touch the victim), etc. Then, ten minutes later when the thief is long gone, the victim finally realizes his wallet is missing. That's a far more common scenario than the classic "lurking" pickpocket you see in cartoons who steals from ten people without ever being seen; the idea isn't not to be seen, the idea is not to be detected. Deception and the ability to mislead are the hallmarks of a good thief, whether he's a con man or a pickpocket.
AquaticSpaceChicken 01-25-07, 10:04 AM	Basically, then, are we talking about a Profession: X skill set, and if someone wanted Profession: Pickpocket then they would get the Deception skill set (although I'm not sure that forgery would figure into it, but hey, why not)?
Arcanis_the_Omnipotent 01-25-07, 04:32 PM	This is a good idea. Especially the stealth one. Hide is pretty much worthless without move silently, and vice-versa, so combining them into one skill is a great idea. Mac Daddy is just cool.
Istaran 01-25-07, 07:55 PM	You would need to dramatically reduce the number of skill points available to certain classes to compensate. If an Int 6 rogue is getting to max out 6 skills, they've got your full list right there.. what would normally be 18 skill points per level. And I'm fairly certain those would all be class skills for a rogue. A non-stupid rogue would be wondering what to do with all their extra skill points, especially if they were a human. While we're at it, your folding seems to benefit the roguishly inclined a bit much. Why not fold all knowledge skills and let the bards and wizards be all knowing? Or fold Concentration and Spellcraft into Magical Competence or something. If you give everyone 1/3 as many skill points, you can fold all the skills like that and keep the balance.. but take away certain speciallization options, such as a hide (but not move silently) sneaker who uses the silence spell to automatically beat all listen checks, or a silent moving invisible sneaker that doesn't bother with hide. Likewise, characters can economize by having only spot or listen to have a decent chance of noticing an impending fight while keeping skill points for other priorities. Otherwise: it is kinda cool to have multiple options for which attribute to add. Technically the DMG suggests doing just that in some unusual situations, but it's a minor rule that is often overlooked.
Zumarai 01-26-07, 09:17 AM	Otherwise: it is kinda cool to have multiple options for which attribute to add. Technically the DMG suggests doing just that in some unusual situations, but it's a minor rule that is often overlooked. Just like I did - totally forgot about that. Thanks!
Millennium 01-26-07, 09:28 AM	No, no, no, no, no, and no. These skills all involve doing completely -or at least significantly- different things, and need to be trained in very different ways. Folding them into single skills causes the system to lose a great deal of expressiveness for basically no gain.
Zumarai 01-26-07, 10:12 AM	No, no, no, no, no, and no. These skills all involve doing completely -or at least significantly- different things, and need to be trained in very different ways. Folding them into single skills causes the system to lose a great deal of expressiveness for basically no gain. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. See; I can be over the top as well. Okay, maybe some of them are too broad, but I think the game would benefit from some Skills being folded – especially Hide + Move Silently = Stealth. And apparently WotC feels the same way, for in the upcoming d20 Star Wars Saga coming out this year they are folding some Skills (the ones above and others), and this new incarnation of the Star Wars game is going to be a test ground for some of the changes they might implement in 4th edition.
nonsi 01-26-07, 01:48 PM	What do you think? Listen + Search + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Balance + Climb + Jump + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise + Forgery + Sleight of Hand = Deception Disable Device + Open Lock = Mechanically Inclined? Diplomacy + Gather Information + Sense Motive = Mac Daddy? I have a better idea. Lets fold all skills into one and call it "Who's you daddy" :D Now seriously, skills are the one factore that attempts to represent real life abilities. If you take away that, there'll be no reason not to switch to anima/marvel approach. This might be good for some, but I believe tha vast majority still have a taste for fantasy with a realistic touch.
Greg K 01-26-07, 01:57 PM	What do you think? Listen + Search + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Balance + Climb + Jump + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise + Forgery + Sleight of Hand = Deception Disable Device + Open Lock = Mechanically Inclined? Diplomacy + Gather Information + Sense Motive = Mac Daddy? I am not a fan of all the folding. I might be willing to fold listen and spot into perception , hide and move silent into stealth, and both balance and tumble into acrobatics. However, that would be the limit of what I would be willing to tolerate.
Krusk 01-26-07, 02:54 PM	We folded the skills hide and move silently, as they were almost always use like.. "ok rolls your hide and move silently check". now we have sneak. as for the others we thought about doing some, and decided they were diffrent enough.
enlightened 01-26-07, 05:26 PM	What do you think? Listen + Search + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Balance + Climb + Jump + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise + Forgery + Sleight of Hand = Deception Disable Device + Open Lock = Mechanically Inclined? Diplomacy + Gather Information + Sense Motive = Mac Daddy? I'm against it because it would make it impossible to build a character that is really good at one but not the others. A really large incorporal ceature: low hide, high move silently A quite, stern faced cleric: low gather info, high sense motive A large spider: low tumble, high climb A creature that lives in the darkness of the jungle floor: low spot, high listen A hawk: low listen, high spot I'm sure people will disagree with some of the examples but if you group skills together any more I just really think it will become difficult to build certain concepts. If anything I think the skills should be broken up more. For example, instead of move silently have Move Silently (urban) and Move Silently (forest), etc. I am more in favor of rules that force a character to specialize (and thus become dependant on the group) than those that allow them to be generalists (creating loners).
Galstaf, Sorcerer of Lite 01-26-07, 06:58 PM	Basically, then, are we talking about a Profession: X skill set, and if someone wanted Profession: Pickpocket then they would get the Deception skill set (although I'm not sure that forgery would figure into it, but hey, why not)? Well, geez, when you put it like that, the whole thing sounds like a giant step backward into the days of "secondary skills" in 2nd edition -- two giants steps backward, even (one step would take us back to the old non-weapon proficiencies system). I guess it all depends on how much specificity you want in your skills system. I still wouldn't mind this, as long as things were kept moderate (i.e, the stealth, perception, and acrobatics skills, as mentioned earlier). This is one of those rules tweaks that could very easily be taken way, way too far if one wasn't careful. And for the record, Mutants & Masterminds uses a similar "folded" skills list to the one being discussed here -- including stealth, perception and acrobatics skills.
Aerunation 01-26-07, 07:09 PM	I played a campaign with EvilVegen from this board were he folder a few skills and it worked out just fine. he folded as follows.... Survival folded into knoledge nature Spellcraft folded into knoledge arcana ....and I believe...... gather info folded into diplomacy search folded into spot with knoledge nature and survival you would use either wisdom or intel, whichever applied to what you were doing.
Jerks 01-27-07, 09:35 PM	What do you think? Listen + Search + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Balance + Climb + Jump + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise + Forgery + Sleight of Hand = Deception Disable Device + Open Lock = Mechanically Inclined? Diplomacy + Gather Information + Sense Motive = Mac Daddy? Some I like and some I don't Listen and Spot = Notice I would keep Search seperate to keep in mind the reactive versus Sherlock Holmesian type skill of Searching. Hide and Move Silently = Sneak or Stealth This is one I've been flirting with making for a while. It is simply annoying to have to make Hide and Move Silently checks whenever you try to sneak down the hall. Basically if you roll Spot and Listen into one skill then it's only logical to do the same with these two. The Acrobatics skill listed above might be two broad. Balance and Tumble I can see contracting (Balance is a somewhat narrow skill)...maybe even Jump too, but Climb is distinct enough that it should be it's own skill. I don't like you Disguise suggestion. Those skills are different enough that I wouldn't recommend it. I would drop Open Lock and just roll that ability into Disable Device (a lot of D20 products do this). Open Lock is a remnant of previous editions of D&D, and probably doesn't really warrant it's own skill category. Although I love the name of Mac Daddy, I can't recommend that change either. Good Luck with the changes. Good gaming.
Grod_The_Giant 01-27-07, 10:08 PM	folding skills? how does that work? do you fold the character sheet or something?
Ace_of_Diamonds 01-27-07, 10:44 PM	Folding so many skills together would upset the balance of the skills. Characters would have the same skill points to spend, but fewer skills to spend them on. That said, though, folding skills isn't an awful idea, but combining more than two into one is probably a bad move. Here's a list I've used experimentally before: Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Open Lock + Disable Device = Security Jump + Climb = Athletics Tumble + Balance = Acrobatics Diplomacy + Intimidate = Persuasion Elder Scrolls fans will probably notice that all but the last one are the same names as skills from the TES game system.
TheDarkLord 01-27-07, 10:55 PM	Hide + Move Silently = Stealth Open Lock + Disable Device = Security Jump + Climb = Athletics Tumble + Balance = Acrobatics Diplomacy + Intimidate = Persuasion Elder Scrolls fans will probably notice that all but the last one are the same names as skills from the TES game system. The ones above we also use, the Bolded one might be a houserule shortly. The only other one we do is Listen + Spot = Awareness. Then again we have added skills as well, Prayercraft and wildcraft (Spellcraft for druids and clerics) are just some of them.
Zumarai 02-07-07, 07:28 AM	I think this is my final decision regarding Skill folding. What do you think? Listen + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Sneak Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics Balance + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise = Deception Diplomacy + Gather Information = Mac Daddy Decipher Script + Forgery = Fraud
Szatany 02-08-07, 07:49 AM	How about some superfolding :) : Acrobatics: Balance, parts of Escape Artist, Tumble Athletics: Climb, Jump, Swim, Run feat Charm: Bluff, Gather Information, Handle Animal, some Performs (Acting, Comedy) Command: Intimidate, Leadership feat Common Knowledge: parts of various Knowledges, like geography, cities, rulers, basically everything not hidden from public eye Linguistics: Decipher Script, Speak Language Lore*: Heal, Knowledge, Spellcraft Fine Manipulation: Disable Device, parts of Escape Artist, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope Perception: Listen, Search, Spot Sneak: Hide, Move Silently Trade*: Appraise, Craft, Forgery, parts of Perform, Profession
Rivelstraz 02-08-07, 05:46 PM	I'm gonna do this : Move Silently + Hide = Stealth Listen + Spot = Perception Balance becomes a new use of 'Tumble'. Open lock becomes a new use of 'Disable Device'. The thing is that there are several skills that my players never used, even if I give them the chance (they won't put ranks in something that is used once in a moon) so I want to make them part of other skills. Forgery and Decipher Script may be next.
bartleby42 02-08-07, 07:05 PM	First let me say that I love the idea. So many times have I played a rogue only to find out that I forgot to take open lock at the fist door I find -.- Listen + Sense Motive + Spot = Perception Hide + Move Silently = Sneak Climb + Jump + Swim = Athletics Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble = Acrobatics Bluff + Disguise = Deception Diplomacy + Gather Information = Mac Daddy Appraise + Forgery = Fraud I would probaly drop Sense Motive from the Perception block and jump from Athletics, mostly for symmetry. Anyway Sense motive is already a good skill to have. I would remove Escape Artist from Acrobatics and make a new group: Escape Artist + Use Robe = Adroitness It could use a better name, but I think it's a better fit and elimiates a mostly useless skill. Fraud I might rename to buisness, I like the fit because in order to spot a forgery you need the forgery skill, as such shopkeepers can now notice a fraud. Oh, if you want a more "traditional" name for the MacDaddy group you could go with etiquitte. Nice idea, I might steal it.
Zumarai 02-09-07, 08:48 AM	First let me say that I love the idea. So many times have I played a rogue only to find out that I forgot to take open lock at the fist door I find -.- I would probaly drop Sense Motive from the Perception block and jump from Athletics, mostly for symmetry. Anyway Sense motive is already a good skill to have. I would remove Escape Artist from Acrobatics and make a new group: Escape Artist + Use Robe = Adroitness It could use a better name, but I think it's a better fit and elimiates a mostly useless skill. Fraud I might rename to buisness, I like the fit because in order to spot a forgery you need the forgery skill, as such shopkeepers can now notice a fraud. Oh, if you want a more "traditional" name for the MacDaddy group you could go with etiquitte. Nice idea, I might steal it. You're right – I've dropped Sense Motive from Perception. I like your Adroitness idea. I think I should combine Decipher Script and Forgery into Fraud, as Rivelstraz suggested (thanks, Rivelstraz). Thanks for the input, holmes.