Forbidden Gestalt Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Forbidden Gestalt Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dnjscott
03-16-06, 03:12 PM There seems to be an ever-growing list or forbidden Gestalt classes--basically, anything that boosts BAB and near to full caster, or whatever.

But, the thing that bothers me is the inclusion of things like the Arcane Trickster and Fist of Raziel. These classes both have unique abilities and flavors that are not easily replicated... I don't know of another class with ranged ledgermain or the FOR's chaining smite.

So, how do you deal with this in your gestalt game? Do you use this rule?
Fanged Fremont
03-16-06, 03:47 PM as long as it's not listed in unearthed arcana or a dual caster class, my groups seem pretty lenient, seeing how we're not all power mongers.

As for things like arcane trickster, just tweak the class a bit. Make it only half caster progression and if they want full, just have them use the other half of their build to fill in the gaps with caster levels. That sound fair?
Dnjscott
03-16-06, 03:58 PM as long as it's not listed in unearthed arcana or a dual caster class, my groups seem pretty lenient, seeing how we're not all power mongers.

Well, so far, we've used the first, too. Was curious if others disagreed... your olther sol would work, too, I think...
ramzafft1
03-16-06, 04:01 PM I see no good reason to frobid anything, except, of course, incompatible alignment restirictions such as Monk/Bard.

I mean, really, is a fighter/wizard going to be that good? No.
Is a barbarian/wizard going to be really good? No, unless you neglect every stat except strength and intelligence... which is probably a bad idea...
kdyal
03-16-06, 04:22 PM Another option:

Allow the dual-class-abilities PrCs with special abilities, boost them slightly, and make them take up both "sides" of the gestalt.

ex.
Arcane Trickster
- Boost BAB to Medium
- Increase HD to d6

The others I do not have memorized, and I do not have my books with me, but you get the point...
tiejaz
03-16-06, 04:47 PM Allow them, but don't let their casting level exceed their HD.
For Example:
Sor 20 // Ftr 15 / Archmage 5
still only casts as a regular Sorcerer of their level.

Sor 20// Clr 10 / MyT 10 casts as a sor/clr of their level. this build is crap under this circumstance.\

with gish type classes, EK is as useful as MyT. Not at all. Ban both of them.
with spellsword, go like this:
Sor 20 // Ftr 10 / Ss 10
full sor casting, full bab
plus the channelling and ignoring sf.

A big problem would be with MyT like this:
Sor 10 / Ftr 10 // Clr 10 / MyT 10
THIS is why it's banned. Just ban EK and MyT, and make spellsword and others that make sense take up both spaces.
Sor/Ftr 10 // SS 10
Rog/Sor 10 // ArcTr 10
Rog/Clr 10 // DivPr 10
also ban the psychic theurge and the cerebromancer.
a psion sorcerer 20 is just as useful as a psion sorcerer 10 cerebromancer 10.
Dnjscott
03-16-06, 04:55 PM Thanks for the responses, everybody!
Mobiledwm
03-16-06, 05:02 PM In my gestalt game, the only banned prestige classes are the double caster ones, though I look hard atthe arcane trickster and such, to make sure they will not be overpowered. You have to be careful about those classes as the requirements are far easier, and you can get into them far earlier. Like Mystic theurge at 4th level, is jsut overpowered.
ramzafft1
03-16-06, 05:11 PM What's the point of Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game anyway?
Just play Wizard/Cleric. :rolleyes:
AT-AT Assault
03-16-06, 09:18 PM Just a quick query. This list of "banned classes", is it official, or an unofficial, board acknowledged list of overabusion?
Bob Loblaw
03-16-06, 11:43 PM Originally posted by ramzafft1
What's the point of Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game anyway?
Just play Wizard/Cleric.

Mystic Theurge is essentially 2 classes in one. So if you were to take any of the dual-class classes, you would get a free class each level. You could essentially get up to 2 free classes each level if you allowed it. Imagine Mystic Theurge/Geomancer with gestalt. There are plenty of other combinations that would make for even more broken characters.
Dnjscott
03-16-06, 11:51 PM Just a quick query. This list of "banned classes", is it official, or an unofficial, board acknowledged list of overabusion?

It seems more like the second... AFAIK, the only explicitly mentioned classes are Mystic Theurge and Eldritch KNight.

I could be very wrong, tho. One reason I was asking...
sedqon
03-17-06, 11:04 AM Imagine Mystic Theurge/Geomancer with gestalt.

Remember, you can't gestalt two prestige classes.
Soulburn84
03-17-06, 11:14 AM It seems more like the second... AFAIK, the only explicitly mentioned classes are Mystic Theurge and Eldritch KNight.

I could be very wrong, tho. One reason I was asking...
Why ban the Eldritch Knight? Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 would be the same as a Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 build.
Bob Loblaw
03-17-06, 11:25 AM Remember, you can't gestalt two prestige classes.

Not at the same time, but you can alternate levels. I was explaining some of the reasoning why Mystic Theurge cannot be gestalt, why it would be a better choice than wizard/cleric, and why it would be broken.
Dnjscott
03-17-06, 12:56 PM Why ban the Eldritch Knight? Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 would be the same as a Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 build.

Because the book says so...
Soulburn84
03-17-06, 01:05 PM Because the book says so...
Sorry I guess I should have been more specific. My question was more of a general aim ... Like "I wonder why they say to ban the Eldritch Knight?".
Ikeren
03-17-06, 04:40 PM Cleric3/wizard3
Monk 1
Rogue 1
Bard 1
Barbarian 4 / Mystic Theurge 7
Barbarian 14/ Fochlucan Lyricist 10
The result: 14d12+4d8+2d6
Casting as a 20 level cleric, 20 level wizard.
+16 BAB
16, 15, 18 base saves, and skillpoints out the wazoo.

If you did straight 20cleric/20 wizard without double caster classes,you'd have 12 fort, 6 ref, 12 will, 15 BAB, far worse skills, and 20D8.

That is why you don't let double classes gestalt.

Same thing:
Eldritch Knight:

Fighter 5, wizard 5.
EK 1, Wizard 1
EK 9, 9 levels of something you like: Barbarian for d12's, clerics for casting, rogues for some useful abilities, sorcs for some extra magic.
Fighter 5, wizard 5.

The end result: Full 20 BAB, Full 20 Wizard casting, plus 9 levels of something useful. We'll say Barbarian: You get 9d12, 10d10, 1d6, rather then EK's straight D6 for 10 levels. Plus damage reduction, trap sense, rage, all those useful things. Or even just spend 9 levels dipping in every +2 to all saves or +2 to 2 of the saves classes you can. 9 levels where you gain 12-15 to each of your saves = a bit heavy, even for gestalt.
Soulburn84
03-17-06, 05:44 PM Cleric3/wizard3
Monk 1
Rogue 1
Bard 1
Barbarian 4 / Mystic Theurge 7
Barbarian 14/ Fochlucan Lyricist 10
The result: 14d12+4d8+2d6
Casting as a 20 level cleric, 20 level wizard.
+16 BAB
16, 15, 18 base saves, and skillpoints out the wazoo.

If you did straight 20cleric/20 wizard without double caster classes,you'd have 12 fort, 6 ref, 12 will, 15 BAB, far worse skills, and 20D8.

That is why you don't let double classes gestalt.

Same thing:
Eldritch Knight:

Fighter 5, wizard 5.
EK 1, Wizard 1
EK 9, 9 levels of something you like: Barbarian for d12's, clerics for casting, rogues for some useful abilities, sorcs for some extra magic.
Fighter 5, wizard 5.

The end result: Full 20 BAB, Full 20 Wizard casting, plus 9 levels of something useful. We'll say Barbarian: You get 9d12, 10d10, 1d6, rather then EK's straight D6 for 10 levels. Plus damage reduction, trap sense, rage, all those useful things. Or even just spend 9 levels dipping in every +2 to all saves or +2 to 2 of the saves classes you can. 9 levels where you gain 12-15 to each of your saves = a bit heavy, even for gestalt.
And both of those builds you would have suffered the multiclass penalty. Even as human, you have at level 7 incurred the penalty, you'll have 1 (odd class)/5 Fighter/6 Wizard. So ignoring your highest (Wizard) you'd suffer the multiclass penalty. I can see the Mystic Theurge/Lyricist build being very nice but the Knight build would still be better off with just a straight comparison.
Fighter 20/ Wizard 20
+20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats.

Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10
+20 BAB, 19d10 HD + 1d6 HD, Pretty much the same skill selection/amount, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 14/6/10, and 14 Bonus feats.

See, the Knight isn't that impressive. I can see why most of the dual classes would be banned but even in your build where you would take Barbarian it would be better to just take more Wizard levels.
Fuzzy_Logic
03-17-06, 09:53 PM obviously, mystic theurge is not better than cleric/wizard if you combine it only with cleric and wizard. the problme is the halfling who goes:

wiz/clr3

then rog/MT10
Ikeren
03-19-06, 08:34 PM I don't have UA...what's the multiclass penalty? The same 20% as it is in the PHB? I know that so far, I've never seen anybody count it and account for it. If you are a DM, make sure you do. But aside from that... *shrug*

Fighter 20/ Wizard 20
+20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats.

I can see the Mystic Theurge/Lyricist build being very nice but the Knight build would still be better off with just a straight comparison.

Okay. Let's see where you get this.
HP: 20d10 = average = 110.
HP: 14d12+4d8+2d6 = average = 116.

Theurge/Barb/Other stuff wins.

BAB: Loses by 4 points, but still gets full four attacks.
Saves: +4, +9, +6 respectively.
Skillpoints: Your build: 2+ int mod/level
Mine: 1 level of +8, 11 levels of +6, 5 levels of +4, 3 levels of +2.
Drop First level (+2 for each build)
Theurge/Barb = 98 points
Fighter Wizard = 38 points.

Casting: 20 wizard/20 cleric. Versus, 20 wizard.

So you've got BAB and 16 bonus feats. I've got Hit points, Casting, Saves, Skills, the same proficiencies, a diminished familiar, 1 bonus feat (scribe scroll), 11 levels of Bardic Music, a couple bard tricks, damage reduction, traip sense, greater rage, uncanny dodge, fast movement indomitable will, turn/rebuke undead (low level), domain abilities, wis to AC when unarmoured (This would be unarmoured, considering 20 levels of wizard and spell failure), improved unarmed strike, flurry, trapfinding, 1d6 sneak attack.

Which 16 feats would you take to replace 20 levels of cleric?

Fighter 20/ Wizard 20
+20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats.

Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10
+20 BAB, 19d10 HD + 1d6 HD, Pretty much the same skill selection/amount, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 14/6/10, and 14 Bonus feats.

Again, the difference is you have 9 levels where you can sub fighter for something that you like better and get the exact same BAB, Same Casting, Better Saves, potentially better HD, potentially better special abilities.
ThatGuyThere
03-19-06, 10:54 PM We say, "If you're taking the same penalty the 'double-benefit' class normally takes, it's allowed."

That is, you can be a Fighter 10 // Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 4. But you can't be a Cleric 6 / Fighter 4 // Wizard 6 / Mystic Theurge 4.

For Mystic Theurge, you give up higher-level spells, but spells in both Cleric and Wizard. For Eldrich Knight, you get better base attack, saves, and HP, but have to choose certain Feats. For Arcane Trickster, you get lower sneak attack (that a Rogue of your level) and lower caster level (than a pure Wizard of your level), but gain a nice mix of both. And so on. If the character suffers the penalties, allow the advantage.

We generally use the rule that "classes taken on one 'side' only benefit other classes taken on that 'side'. So I'd have to take Cleric & Wizard on the same 'side' to become a mystic theurge - Cleric for 3 levels, then Wizzy for 3, then Theurge.

The Twink's soution to this is Sorcerer 10 // Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 4. I don't find that (any more of a...) problem than Sorcerer 10 // Cleric 10 or Sorcerer 10 // Wizard 10, so I'm fine with it.
Shinryouga
03-20-06, 12:39 AM The only class restrictions Ive seen it worthwhile to note in the gestalt Planescape game I'll be running soon were combinations involving prestige classes that don't have base attack progressions: Survivor from Savage Species, and War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook. The war hulk in particular becomes frightening indeed when gestalted with a barbarian, fighter, or grappling monk.

Just my two coppers.
ShadeSeraph
03-31-06, 04:52 AM In the Gestalt game we are playing, we use the same rule than ThatGuyThere.
We create 2 characters with the same abilities and the same skills and then meld them in a single character. Furthermore, we cannot take a class we have taken in one of the two paths in the other path (thus, you have to take the EK/MyT/whatever class levels in ONLY one of the paths), and any class wich advance caster levels (or, in fact, any ability which progresses with class level) can only increase them in his own path. The only exception is that for the prerrequisites, you use the full character (so, you could take spellsword at level 5 with a wizard 4/figther 4). This way we can use the prestige classes without problems (of course, if someone gets something too imbalanced, the DM acts). If both paths have an ability who progresses with class levels with the same name (as sneak attack, smite evil, uncanny dogde...), the character gets only the progression of the best path, without stacking the levels (he gains extra uses normally).
Ace the Dead
03-31-06, 03:52 PM I do not use gestalt often. I will admit that up front.

When I did use it I used the following house rules: 1) no multiclassing. Pick two classes and run them up. I do not like the way things work out otherwise: they make abilities that allow saves more or less worthless as all saves tend to be high more or less across the board).

2) All prestige classes take up both you're levels, but you may play any prestige class you meet the pre-reqs for. That one was me misreading the rules, but after seeing my brother's warmage/fighter arcane archer kill the fighter/wizard/spellsword & his improved blinkdog familiar with a single fireball-enhanced arrow (the other PC was at full hp, reflex just wasn't his best save, and my brother had something invested in that particular attack), I like the way that it works out. There are a lot of prestige classes that one probably won't take using this rule, but we had a lot of fun, even if the party ended up failing lethally do to infighting (the spellthief/rogue actually got to go home without tacking any damage, just ya know, without his friends or the good feeling of a job well done).

Considering they were fighting creatures straight out of the monster manual it was the exact power level I wanted, and if I run more gestalts I will probably use these rules again.
Arco Versipellis
04-01-06, 10:19 AM I recently ruled that players can only take base classes if they want to do gehstalt. It simplely required to much work for me to let them have racial HD and prestige classes mixed in with all of that. My players are not especially skilled at character creation. I don't think I would even allow for multi-classing from one base class to another, mostly because of the effects of skill points, BAB, and saves.
Krug_the_smasher
04-05-06, 10:55 PM Savage progressions. Imagine a psion/illithid. Gets the psion HD when the illithid doesnt, and gets full psion power casting. Plus all the awesome stuff that an illithid gets. Or, a barbarian/minotaur. Rage and gore and stuff. it would be absolutly rocking.

The munchkin inside me is getting happy.
pheonixfrostmourn
04-06-06, 03:46 AM I allow any PrC in gestalt...at least any from the list that i allow in my game in the first place.
The only restiction i use is that all PrCs used in a gestalt build have 2 additional prereqs: 1) 1 additional feat of the DM's (thats me) choice; and 2) BAB 2 higher than listed, minimum of +6 for those without a bab prereq. This allows gestalt builds with PrCs, while keeping the abuse factor in check. Thusfar, my players seem to like this system as all 4 of them have incorporated various PrCs into their builds without any fuss.
StruckingFuggle
04-07-06, 12:29 AM Me, I allow basically every PrC, and allow both "sides" to be considered in terms of registering for a PrC, with the rule that "you can't qualify before you'd normally be able to as a single-classer". The only PrCs I specifically ban are the Eldritch Knight and the Mystic Theurge, largely to prevent three-class near-full progression, and half because... Anything else that advances two classes gets knocked to advancing only one class ... so if you want to stay a Druid/Wizard Arcane Hireophant, you have to take AH and one of your base classes to keep full dual progression (which actually ... man. I'm gonna have to roll up a Druid20/Wizard 5/AH 10/Incantrix 3/Archmage 2 .... )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dnjscott 03-16-06, 03:12 PM	There seems to be an ever-growing list or forbidden Gestalt classes--basically, anything that boosts BAB and near to full caster, or whatever. But, the thing that bothers me is the inclusion of things like the Arcane Trickster and Fist of Raziel. These classes both have unique abilities and flavors that are not easily replicated... I don't know of another class with ranged ledgermain or the FOR's chaining smite. So, how do you deal with this in your gestalt game? Do you use this rule?
Fanged Fremont 03-16-06, 03:47 PM	as long as it's not listed in unearthed arcana or a dual caster class, my groups seem pretty lenient, seeing how we're not all power mongers. As for things like arcane trickster, just tweak the class a bit. Make it only half caster progression and if they want full, just have them use the other half of their build to fill in the gaps with caster levels. That sound fair?
Dnjscott 03-16-06, 03:58 PM	as long as it's not listed in unearthed arcana or a dual caster class, my groups seem pretty lenient, seeing how we're not all power mongers. Well, so far, we've used the first, too. Was curious if others disagreed... your olther sol would work, too, I think...
ramzafft1 03-16-06, 04:01 PM	I see no good reason to frobid anything, except, of course, incompatible alignment restirictions such as Monk/Bard. I mean, really, is a fighter/wizard going to be that good? No. Is a barbarian/wizard going to be really good? No, unless you neglect every stat except strength and intelligence... which is probably a bad idea...
kdyal 03-16-06, 04:22 PM	Another option: Allow the dual-class-abilities PrCs with special abilities, boost them slightly, and make them take up both "sides" of the gestalt. ex. Arcane Trickster - Boost BAB to Medium - Increase HD to d6 The others I do not have memorized, and I do not have my books with me, but you get the point...
tiejaz 03-16-06, 04:47 PM	Allow them, but don't let their casting level exceed their HD. For Example: Sor 20 // Ftr 15 / Archmage 5 still only casts as a regular Sorcerer of their level. Sor 20// Clr 10 / MyT 10 casts as a sor/clr of their level. this build is crap under this circumstance.\ with gish type classes, EK is as useful as MyT. Not at all. Ban both of them. with spellsword, go like this: Sor 20 // Ftr 10 / Ss 10 full sor casting, full bab plus the channelling and ignoring sf. A big problem would be with MyT like this: Sor 10 / Ftr 10 // Clr 10 / MyT 10 THIS is why it's banned. Just ban EK and MyT, and make spellsword and others that make sense take up both spaces. Sor/Ftr 10 // SS 10 Rog/Sor 10 // ArcTr 10 Rog/Clr 10 // DivPr 10 also ban the psychic theurge and the cerebromancer. a psion sorcerer 20 is just as useful as a psion sorcerer 10 cerebromancer 10.
Dnjscott 03-16-06, 04:55 PM	Thanks for the responses, everybody!
Mobiledwm 03-16-06, 05:02 PM	In my gestalt game, the only banned prestige classes are the double caster ones, though I look hard atthe arcane trickster and such, to make sure they will not be overpowered. You have to be careful about those classes as the requirements are far easier, and you can get into them far earlier. Like Mystic theurge at 4th level, is jsut overpowered.
ramzafft1 03-16-06, 05:11 PM	What's the point of Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game anyway? Just play Wizard/Cleric. :rolleyes:
AT-AT Assault 03-16-06, 09:18 PM	Just a quick query. This list of "banned classes", is it official, or an unofficial, board acknowledged list of overabusion?
Bob Loblaw 03-16-06, 11:43 PM	Originally posted by ramzafft1 What's the point of Mystic Theurge in a gestalt game anyway? Just play Wizard/Cleric. Mystic Theurge is essentially 2 classes in one. So if you were to take any of the dual-class classes, you would get a free class each level. You could essentially get up to 2 free classes each level if you allowed it. Imagine Mystic Theurge/Geomancer with gestalt. There are plenty of other combinations that would make for even more broken characters.
Dnjscott 03-16-06, 11:51 PM	Just a quick query. This list of "banned classes", is it official, or an unofficial, board acknowledged list of overabusion? It seems more like the second... AFAIK, the only explicitly mentioned classes are Mystic Theurge and Eldritch KNight. I could be very wrong, tho. One reason I was asking...
sedqon 03-17-06, 11:04 AM	Imagine Mystic Theurge/Geomancer with gestalt. Remember, you can't gestalt two prestige classes.
Soulburn84 03-17-06, 11:14 AM	It seems more like the second... AFAIK, the only explicitly mentioned classes are Mystic Theurge and Eldritch KNight. I could be very wrong, tho. One reason I was asking... Why ban the Eldritch Knight? Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 would be the same as a Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 build.
Bob Loblaw 03-17-06, 11:25 AM	Remember, you can't gestalt two prestige classes. Not at the same time, but you can alternate levels. I was explaining some of the reasoning why Mystic Theurge cannot be gestalt, why it would be a better choice than wizard/cleric, and why it would be broken.
Dnjscott 03-17-06, 12:56 PM	Why ban the Eldritch Knight? Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 would be the same as a Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 build. Because the book says so...
Soulburn84 03-17-06, 01:05 PM	Because the book says so... Sorry I guess I should have been more specific. My question was more of a general aim ... Like "I wonder why they say to ban the Eldritch Knight?".
Ikeren 03-17-06, 04:40 PM	Cleric3/wizard3 Monk 1 Rogue 1 Bard 1 Barbarian 4 / Mystic Theurge 7 Barbarian 14/ Fochlucan Lyricist 10 The result: 14d12+4d8+2d6 Casting as a 20 level cleric, 20 level wizard. +16 BAB 16, 15, 18 base saves, and skillpoints out the wazoo. If you did straight 20cleric/20 wizard without double caster classes,you'd have 12 fort, 6 ref, 12 will, 15 BAB, far worse skills, and 20D8. That is why you don't let double classes gestalt. Same thing: Eldritch Knight: Fighter 5, wizard 5. EK 1, Wizard 1 EK 9, 9 levels of something you like: Barbarian for d12's, clerics for casting, rogues for some useful abilities, sorcs for some extra magic. Fighter 5, wizard 5. The end result: Full 20 BAB, Full 20 Wizard casting, plus 9 levels of something useful. We'll say Barbarian: You get 9d12, 10d10, 1d6, rather then EK's straight D6 for 10 levels. Plus damage reduction, trap sense, rage, all those useful things. Or even just spend 9 levels dipping in every +2 to all saves or +2 to 2 of the saves classes you can. 9 levels where you gain 12-15 to each of your saves = a bit heavy, even for gestalt.
Soulburn84 03-17-06, 05:44 PM	Cleric3/wizard3 Monk 1 Rogue 1 Bard 1 Barbarian 4 / Mystic Theurge 7 Barbarian 14/ Fochlucan Lyricist 10 The result: 14d12+4d8+2d6 Casting as a 20 level cleric, 20 level wizard. +16 BAB 16, 15, 18 base saves, and skillpoints out the wazoo. If you did straight 20cleric/20 wizard without double caster classes,you'd have 12 fort, 6 ref, 12 will, 15 BAB, far worse skills, and 20D8. That is why you don't let double classes gestalt. Same thing: Eldritch Knight: Fighter 5, wizard 5. EK 1, Wizard 1 EK 9, 9 levels of something you like: Barbarian for d12's, clerics for casting, rogues for some useful abilities, sorcs for some extra magic. Fighter 5, wizard 5. The end result: Full 20 BAB, Full 20 Wizard casting, plus 9 levels of something useful. We'll say Barbarian: You get 9d12, 10d10, 1d6, rather then EK's straight D6 for 10 levels. Plus damage reduction, trap sense, rage, all those useful things. Or even just spend 9 levels dipping in every +2 to all saves or +2 to 2 of the saves classes you can. 9 levels where you gain 12-15 to each of your saves = a bit heavy, even for gestalt. And both of those builds you would have suffered the multiclass penalty. Even as human, you have at level 7 incurred the penalty, you'll have 1 (odd class)/5 Fighter/6 Wizard. So ignoring your highest (Wizard) you'd suffer the multiclass penalty. I can see the Mystic Theurge/Lyricist build being very nice but the Knight build would still be better off with just a straight comparison. Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 +20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats. Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 +20 BAB, 19d10 HD + 1d6 HD, Pretty much the same skill selection/amount, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 14/6/10, and 14 Bonus feats. See, the Knight isn't that impressive. I can see why most of the dual classes would be banned but even in your build where you would take Barbarian it would be better to just take more Wizard levels.
Fuzzy_Logic 03-17-06, 09:53 PM	obviously, mystic theurge is not better than cleric/wizard if you combine it only with cleric and wizard. the problme is the halfling who goes: wiz/clr3 then rog/MT10
Ikeren 03-19-06, 08:34 PM	I don't have UA...what's the multiclass penalty? The same 20% as it is in the PHB? I know that so far, I've never seen anybody count it and account for it. If you are a DM, make sure you do. But aside from that... shrug Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 +20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats. I can see the Mystic Theurge/Lyricist build being very nice but the Knight build would still be better off with just a straight comparison. Okay. Let's see where you get this. HP: 20d10 = average = 110. HP: 14d12+4d8+2d6 = average = 116. Theurge/Barb/Other stuff wins. BAB: Loses by 4 points, but still gets full four attacks. Saves: +4, +9, +6 respectively. Skillpoints: Your build: 2+ int mod/level Mine: 1 level of +8, 11 levels of +6, 5 levels of +4, 3 levels of +2. Drop First level (+2 for each build) Theurge/Barb = 98 points Fighter Wizard = 38 points. Casting: 20 wizard/20 cleric. Versus, 20 wizard. So you've got BAB and 16 bonus feats. I've got Hit points, Casting, Saves, Skills, the same proficiencies, a diminished familiar, 1 bonus feat (scribe scroll), 11 levels of Bardic Music, a couple bard tricks, damage reduction, traip sense, greater rage, uncanny dodge, fast movement indomitable will, turn/rebuke undead (low level), domain abilities, wis to AC when unarmoured (This would be unarmoured, considering 20 levels of wizard and spell failure), improved unarmed strike, flurry, trapfinding, 1d6 sneak attack. Which 16 feats would you take to replace 20 levels of cleric? Fighter 20/ Wizard 20 +20 BAB, 20d10 HD, Decent skill selection/moderate skill points, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 12/6/12, and 16 Bonus feats. Fighter 19/ Wizard 11/ Eldritch Knight 10 +20 BAB, 19d10 HD + 1d6 HD, Pretty much the same skill selection/amount, Full Wizard casting, Base saves of 14/6/10, and 14 Bonus feats. Again, the difference is you have 9 levels where you can sub fighter for something that you like better and get the exact same BAB, Same Casting, Better Saves, potentially better HD, potentially better special abilities.
ThatGuyThere 03-19-06, 10:54 PM	We say, "If you're taking the same penalty the 'double-benefit' class normally takes, it's allowed." That is, you can be a Fighter 10 // Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 4. But you can't be a Cleric 6 / Fighter 4 // Wizard 6 / Mystic Theurge 4. For Mystic Theurge, you give up higher-level spells, but spells in both Cleric and Wizard. For Eldrich Knight, you get better base attack, saves, and HP, but have to choose certain Feats. For Arcane Trickster, you get lower sneak attack (that a Rogue of your level) and lower caster level (than a pure Wizard of your level), but gain a nice mix of both. And so on. If the character suffers the penalties, allow the advantage. We generally use the rule that "classes taken on one 'side' only benefit other classes taken on that 'side'. So I'd have to take Cleric & Wizard on the same 'side' to become a mystic theurge - Cleric for 3 levels, then Wizzy for 3, then Theurge. The Twink's soution to this is Sorcerer 10 // Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 4. I don't find that (any more of a...) problem than Sorcerer 10 // Cleric 10 or Sorcerer 10 // Wizard 10, so I'm fine with it.
Shinryouga 03-20-06, 12:39 AM	The only class restrictions Ive seen it worthwhile to note in the gestalt Planescape game I'll be running soon were combinations involving prestige classes that don't have base attack progressions: Survivor from Savage Species, and War Hulk from Miniatures Handbook. The war hulk in particular becomes frightening indeed when gestalted with a barbarian, fighter, or grappling monk. Just my two coppers.
ShadeSeraph 03-31-06, 04:52 AM	In the Gestalt game we are playing, we use the same rule than ThatGuyThere. We create 2 characters with the same abilities and the same skills and then meld them in a single character. Furthermore, we cannot take a class we have taken in one of the two paths in the other path (thus, you have to take the EK/MyT/whatever class levels in ONLY one of the paths), and any class wich advance caster levels (or, in fact, any ability which progresses with class level) can only increase them in his own path. The only exception is that for the prerrequisites, you use the full character (so, you could take spellsword at level 5 with a wizard 4/figther 4). This way we can use the prestige classes without problems (of course, if someone gets something too imbalanced, the DM acts). If both paths have an ability who progresses with class levels with the same name (as sneak attack, smite evil, uncanny dogde...), the character gets only the progression of the best path, without stacking the levels (he gains extra uses normally).
Ace the Dead 03-31-06, 03:52 PM	I do not use gestalt often. I will admit that up front. When I did use it I used the following house rules: 1) no multiclassing. Pick two classes and run them up. I do not like the way things work out otherwise: they make abilities that allow saves more or less worthless as all saves tend to be high more or less across the board). 2) All prestige classes take up both you're levels, but you may play any prestige class you meet the pre-reqs for. That one was me misreading the rules, but after seeing my brother's warmage/fighter arcane archer kill the fighter/wizard/spellsword & his improved blinkdog familiar with a single fireball-enhanced arrow (the other PC was at full hp, reflex just wasn't his best save, and my brother had something invested in that particular attack), I like the way that it works out. There are a lot of prestige classes that one probably won't take using this rule, but we had a lot of fun, even if the party ended up failing lethally do to infighting (the spellthief/rogue actually got to go home without tacking any damage, just ya know, without his friends or the good feeling of a job well done). Considering they were fighting creatures straight out of the monster manual it was the exact power level I wanted, and if I run more gestalts I will probably use these rules again.
Arco Versipellis 04-01-06, 10:19 AM	I recently ruled that players can only take base classes if they want to do gehstalt. It simplely required to much work for me to let them have racial HD and prestige classes mixed in with all of that. My players are not especially skilled at character creation. I don't think I would even allow for multi-classing from one base class to another, mostly because of the effects of skill points, BAB, and saves.
Krug_the_smasher 04-05-06, 10:55 PM	Savage progressions. Imagine a psion/illithid. Gets the psion HD when the illithid doesnt, and gets full psion power casting. Plus all the awesome stuff that an illithid gets. Or, a barbarian/minotaur. Rage and gore and stuff. it would be absolutly rocking. The munchkin inside me is getting happy.
pheonixfrostmourn 04-06-06, 03:46 AM	I allow any PrC in gestalt...at least any from the list that i allow in my game in the first place. The only restiction i use is that all PrCs used in a gestalt build have 2 additional prereqs: 1) 1 additional feat of the DM's (thats me) choice; and 2) BAB 2 higher than listed, minimum of +6 for those without a bab prereq. This allows gestalt builds with PrCs, while keeping the abuse factor in check. Thusfar, my players seem to like this system as all 4 of them have incorporated various PrCs into their builds without any fuss.
StruckingFuggle 04-07-06, 12:29 AM	Me, I allow basically every PrC, and allow both "sides" to be considered in terms of registering for a PrC, with the rule that "you can't qualify before you'd normally be able to as a single-classer". The only PrCs I specifically ban are the Eldritch Knight and the Mystic Theurge, largely to prevent three-class near-full progression, and half because... Anything else that advances two classes gets knocked to advancing only one class ... so if you want to stay a Druid/Wizard Arcane Hireophant, you have to take AH and one of your base classes to keep full dual progression (which actually ... man. I'm gonna have to roll up a Druid20/Wizard 5/AH 10/Incantrix 3/Archmage 2 .... )