Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Leach 05-13-05, 03:16 PM	I've been reading a lot about the magic system for Mage:the Ascension lately, and I'm trying to figure out how I could come up with similar freeform magic for D&D. In a nutshell, Mage's system is about taking parts of magic (life, time, matter, etc) and combining them together to get magical effects on the fly. For example, with sufficient ranks in Matter and Life(?) you can animate a mop to do work for you. It requires a roll to work, not to mention plenty of creativity on the part of the mage, but it's also very fun. (There's a system of set spells, too, but D&D already has that.) As far as I know, the d20 system doesn't allow for freeform, on-the-fly magic except for Prestidigitation, and that's just because its effects are open-ended. What I'd like to know is if anyone's come up with a good system for casting "on the fly" magic effects, ones you come up with and implement on the spot. I don't necessarily mean a conversion of the Mage system; just some way to cast magic that doesn't rely on a set number of spells known. I could probably whip something up using schools of magic and energy (abjuration+force=mage armor, conjuration+positive energy=healing, etc), but that doesn't mean it'd be good. So does anyone know of a freeform d20 magic system out there, homebrew or published? Thanks in advance.
Arcade 05-13-05, 05:00 PM	This has been discussed before not too long ago. From what I recall, Arcana Unearthed had a wilder mage that seemed to do a good job of it. Another source was the Black Company source book (which is what I'm currently looking at as one of my favorite systems). Another option might be to adapt the system of Epic Spells given in the Epic Player's Handbook..
Hrafnaugr the Wordplainer 05-13-05, 09:45 PM	I actually worked up a system along the line of Mage a while back, and have playtested it in a limited way, if you're interested, just post and I'll e-mail it or post it, it being somewhat sizable.
Arterion 05-14-05, 01:55 AM	Well, Mages from the WoD games were kept in check via paradox. But if you want to use such a system, develop a point system with a rating of 0-9 in each school. (Or 1-10) Then have a progression for casters to gain points to invest in certain schools (like spheres) to be able to create spell effects up to the power level of the spells for that level (3rd at 5th level, 4 and 7th and so on). For example, a stroke of lightning from the evocation school for someone with a level of Evocation 3 would be a d6 per level -- just like lightning bolt. The real powers comes from all the utility spells available. You might also require spellcraft rolls to make up spells on the fly (Even Mages used rotes), and I would definatly use a spell point system, to keep mages freeform, but not unlimited in power. If done right, it will be balanced, because of the rankings in the schools. Depending on how generous you are with those points, your casters could be very powerful of very limited. You'll have to playtest and see how it works out. You might also use the subschools to further restrict access. There's a lot you can do with this basic framework. A simple system would be to start wizards with a rank 0 in every school, and then giving them 5 points for other schools at first level, and three ever level thereafter. This will keep them from having major access to some schools, which should balance the fact they're spontaneous casters who don't need to ever research spells.
Lina_Inverse 05-16-05, 12:02 PM	mage was balenced by one thing.paradox and even then it wasnt much.afterall the traditional i win the lottery spell didnt draw paradox and required an enthropy of what?2?3? D&D put limits on magic power.mage laughed at limits. people complain enough about casters being broken.now imagine what thats like when mages can literally do everything they can imagine.
weasel fierce 05-16-05, 02:43 PM	The danger would be that Mage has powerfull (if rather unreliable) magic, because its a game about mages. D&D is not, so some checks and balances may be required. Ist also worth noting, that Mage has by far the highest XP requirements to improve your magical prowess, of any World of Darkness game. D&D 3.whatever assumes that everyone needs the same XP, which would make it problematic, unless the power level was reduced
Arterion 05-17-05, 03:01 AM	I think he wants to know HOW he can do it, not why he shouldn't or why Mage is different. If you limit freeform caster's power by his access to schools, and implement a spell point system, it should end up being pretty balanced. You'll basically have a mage who's really good in a few areas, and immensly versatile in those particular areas, but exceeded in overall versatility by a true wizard. And if the game Dungeons and Dragons is not more about magic than the World of Darkness, I'll eat a skunk. Relatively speaking, the World of Darkness and even Mages themselves are much MUCH more 'low magic" than even the most magically bereft D&D world I've ever seen. If a Mage were to throw off as many spells as a D&D Wizard, and with such great effect, he'd be paradoxed into a lawn chair before he knew what hit him. Something as simple as a burning hands or magic missle could throw a mage into quiet. A 1st level D&D wizard is expected to be able to send off couple, at least. The bottom line is that the two systems are entirely different, but the poster still wants a way to have more freeform magic in D&D. Since D&D is almost completely spell-based, the only real (easy) way to do this is to follow the current paradigm (pun intended) of spell levels, and allow mages to duplicate any spell effect in the book, or create any new spell effect they desire on the fly, which they are skilled enough to cast. This requires a lot of DM arbitration, much like Mage or any white wolf game. If you look at the schools at spheres and give each mage a set number of points per level to put into whatever schools he desires, STILL CAPPING the maximum spell level he can cast by his caster level (e.g. a 5th level mage could not go beyond 3rd level spell effects), it will be balanced by the fact that he will only have couple schools at the same level of power as a wizard of equal level. I suggest 5 points at first level, and three at every level thereafter. For example, if I say I want to use a ray of fire to try and melt the lock off a door, the DM could rule that's about the same as a 2nd level spell, thus I'd need an Evocation rank of 2, and would have to spend spell points (see the unearthed arcana) as if I had cast a 2nd level spell. I could then roll damage against the lock. The DM rules I can roll d6+1/level. Since I'm 3rd level, I roll 3d6+3 (following the paradigm set for Energy Ray in the XPH). Let's say I roll poorly and only do 8 points of damage. The DM tells me I melted away most of the lock, but not all of it. I can then tell him I am going to try and burn through the rest of it. I use the same effect and spend the same number of spell points, this time rolling a total of 14 damage. The DM rules this is enough to melt the lock off, and I can then open the door. See how that works? Now, since I'm 3rd level, I have a 2 in Evocation, Illusion, and Necromancy, a 1 in Conjuration and Abjuration, and a 0 in Transmutation, Enchantment, and Divination. My rank in the Universal school is the maximum it can be for my level. So unlike a Wizard of 3rd level, who have acces to 2nd level spells in ALL the schools, I could only access 2nd level spells in 3 schools, first level spells in 2 more schools, and only cantrips of the remaining three schools. Now, I could have distributed my points more evenly and been capable of 1st level spells in ALL the schools, but no second level spells in any of them. Then I wouldn't get any 2nd level spells until 4th level, and even then, only in three schools. So the progression is MUCH MUCH slower than the Wizard's. Either way, I can still only cast roughly the same number of spells as a wizard, due to the spell points per day. Just about any effect someone could want to create would be a printed spell, or similar to a printed spell. Determining the exact level of the spell would be difficult to get the hang of at first, but once you set some basic foundations set, it should be pretty easy. It would be a different type of game, but making this into a core class, completely compatible with prestige classes and everything else in the game, would be relatively easy. While it does require more work on the DM's part, I think the poster undersood that would be the case from the get go -- especially if he's ever ran Mage. :-)
Ilium 05-17-05, 10:17 AM	EN Publishing has a product you might be interested in. Elements of magic lets a caster build a spell on the fly and cast it with magic points. It's a fairly involved system, but very very flexible: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2699&
CrystalMaster 05-20-05, 05:34 AM	I have been wondering about ways to make the magic system in D&D more appealing for quite some time. Though I DON'T have practical suggestions to you on how to adapt the "Mage" system to D&D, I can propose a B-plan... - I decided that I didn't want a free-form magic system in my game because it would switch too much the focus of the game on thinking about magic than other aspects of the game (roughly speaking, I feel that World of Darkness is a lot about role-laying and imagination, while D&D is to many much more... tactical, much closer to a board game); moreover, frankly speaking, with a free-form magic system a wizards in D&D becomes so much *COOLER*... definitely this is a type of change that at least shouldn't be implemented while your campaign is running, as it would change too much the expectations of players on what the game is likely to be. And again, I would recommend it only in an "everybody is a spell-caster" campaign. - THE COMPROMISE SOLUTION: a) if you use a spell point system like from UA: spell-casting classes can modify a spell. To continue the example of Arterion, a mage could decide to use a flame arrow spell to melt a lock. Depending on DM's judgement, it could be that the spell, by the rule-book, doesn't have the power to melt iron. But if your player want to focus the fire blast in a tiny spot like to melt the lock, you can allow it and increase the point-cost of the spell. If the mage cannot pay the cost the spell is wasted (after the DM announces the spell-point increase the player cannot change his mind, this gives the player an incentive to be reasonable on what he wants to achieve). b) if you use a standard D&D magic system, you do like in a) but instead of increasing the spell-point cost you declare that the spell uses up a spell slot of a higher level than in the standard case. For Arterion: your system looks really good, i like it, but will not use it in my current campaign, simply because my players wouldn't love this change while the game is running. But I will probably try it in the future. Have you tested it? Crystalmaster
Trask 05-20-05, 01:12 PM	Mongoose also released a book called Encyclopedia Arcane: Chaos Magic. It provides a system for coming up with a large variety of different spells and keeps the casting in check by dealing subdual or lethal damage when they cast. Pretty interesting system, though I've yet to use it in a game... Also not sure if they have a 3.5 version of that book, though the 3.0 version converts easily enough.
Arterion 05-20-05, 01:26 PM	No, I haven't tested yet. It just seemed to be the simplest way to do it off the top of my head. But I do really, really like the idea, and will be offering that option in the next game I run. I'll let you know how it turns out. :-)
Leach 05-20-05, 05:22 PM	Wow, lots of good advice. Thanks everyone. (And to clarify: I'm not trying to adapt Mage to D&D; that's just the only freeform magic system I'm familiar with.) To Hrafnaugr, if you want to post the Mage conversion, go ahead. It's not exactly what I'm looking for, but I could harvest some good ideas from it. To Arterion, that looks like a pretty nice system. It'd have to be playtested a bit, but there's some good potential there. Now, one thing I've been toying with in the last day or two isn't so much freeform magic as freeformer magic. Not quite the "you can do anything" of Mage, but still very versatile. Here's what I'm envisioning (comments and suggestions welcome): A spellcaster with the "splice" ability is able to create new spells by splicing together bits of ones he already knows. The resulting spell takes up a slot equal to the two spliced spells' combined levels (cantrips count as 1), plus one level for every part of the spliced spell past the first. For example, a Sorcerer could take fireball and splice into it the "cold" descriptor from ray of frost in order to get a 10d6 coldball, which takes up a 4th level spell slot (3+1). Adding the "ray" descriptor onto that turns it into a 10d6 ray of cold that takes up a 5th level spell lot (3 for fireball, 1 for the "cold" part of ray of frost, 1 for the "ray" part). Does that make sense? I figure this would be a bit less rule-breaking than what I originally planned. I also think the easiest way to implement it would be as a metamagic feat. To compensate for the extreme versatility it would give, I'd have it permanently lower your spells per day by 1 at every spell level (ie: 1 less cantrip, 1 less 1st-level, 1 less 2nd-level, all the way to 9th). Does this seem a bit more workable? And a bit more balanced, I hope?
RogerBacon 05-22-05, 05:01 PM	I've also made conversions of Mage: the Ascension for d20. In the World of Darkness, there were two forces that kept player character mages in check: paradox and the Technocracy. Paradox would obviously be very rare in a d20 world, as everyone believes in magic. However, they don’t believe magic can do EVERYTHING, all the time. If a Mage does something that a typical d20 spell caster couldn’t do and it is witnessed then you should throw paradox at them. An example includes casting spells all day long with out limit. That just can’t be done by regular wizards. The other force that keeps Mages in check is the Technocracy. Sure, a mage can win the lottery with only Entropy 2 but he’ll have a hell of a time collecting the money. If I was to implement Mage into d20 I would make sure there was already an organization set up to act as antagonists to PCs that got too flashy with their effects. One last thing that Keeps Mages in line in M:tA—they can’t repeat a failed effect without the difficulty increasing. A d20 sorcerer can cast fireball after fireball until he uses up all of his ‘slots’ but if the Mage failes his first fireball roll then that means that reality is too dense in the current area for the magic to work. He’ll have to try something else. After writing all of that, I’ve forgotten what the original poster wanted to know. :( I was just so glad to see WoD stuff mentioned in a thread on these boards. It made it feel like home.
IceFractal 05-23-05, 04:26 AM	I've been thinking of a system something like this. Spellcasters would have ranks in each of the 8 schools and would also know a small number of metaspells. A metasphell would be much larger and more versatile than a normal spell, with it's power dependant on the skill check. Metaspells could include elements related by element, effect, or other grouping. For instance, you could have an "Invoke Fire" metaspell that could light a campfire, create a flare for others to see, melt through a lock, or blast the crap out of some orcs. You could also have an "Energy Burst" metaspell that could only create burst of energy, but could have them be any energy type and of greater intensity. The only problem is that I don't have nearly enough spare time to write up, much less balance, all these metaspells. I will eventually, I hope.
Arterion 05-23-05, 04:37 AM	I'd like to see someone make the epic seeds work for spell creation. Both for freeform magic and so that there are rules other than "whatever your DM decides" for new spell research.
striderII 05-23-05, 11:55 AM	Arterion: I like the system you present. It's rather straightforward, and not difficult to work with. I agree that it requires more DM arbitration, but, as I play WoD much more often than anything else, I'm already used to that. ;) I especially liked using the Caster Level in much the same manner as Arete. D&D put limits on magic power.mage laughed at limits. That second portion is not entirely true. Sure, a powerful Archmage or Oracle could pull off some incredible Effects (how about that "Create/Destroy Universe" Rote from Masters of the Art?), but, largely, the game dealt with the hubris that inevitably came with the realization that you could literally reweave reality to your whim. For those that don't know, hubris means "Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance" (according to Dictionary.com). Basically, Mage went hand-in-hand with the primary theme from Spider-Man: "with great power comes great responsibility". Sure, you we rework reality, but you *shouldn't*, because you don't have the all-encompassing knowledge to ascertain every reaction the rest of the world might have to what you're doing. Mages had tons of limits on them - primarily Paradox and the Domino Effect, both already mentioned in this thread. After writing all of that, I’ve forgotten what the original poster wanted to know. I was just so glad to see WoD stuff mentioned in a thread on these boards. It made it feel like home. Worry not, true believer! There are other 'Wolf-lovers here, too. :) strider
Arterion 05-23-05, 11:59 AM	Thanks. I may put it down in an actual Core Class format and post it as an alternative and work out any confusion or tiny bug that could crop up, and throw in some general rules for spells power at each level, though this is ultimately going to be the DM's province. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work as a traditional spellcaster for the purposes of Feats, PrC's and anything else that wizards (or clerics, for that matter) can get themselves into. :-)
Sirix 05-27-05, 03:05 AM	Wow, I don't know anything about Mage, but these all sound like cool spell systems. I don't particularly like the magic system in D&D but it's the the fattest part of the rulebook and I've never had the patience to revise it beyond using spellpoints and adding a few custom spells. One thing I thought of that hasn't been mentioned yet is the 'augmentation' mechanic from the Psionics Handbook 3.5 (I don't much like the flavor of psionics, but mechanically the Psi HB 3.5 is one of the best books Wizards has ever done.) In case you haven't seen it here's the jist (if you have, you can skip this part): You spend power points to 'manifest' 'powers'. A 1st level power is 1 PP, 2nd level is 3 PP, 3rd is 5, etc. Many powers have 'augmentations' listed at the end of their entries which allow you to spend extra PP to modify the power by increasing duration, tacking on related abilities, increasing the burst radius, weight limit, etc. There's also a limit on how much you can augment. I believe it's that you can't spend more PP on a power than you would spend to manifest a power of your highest level. Anyway, the system works very well, and I wish magic was handled this way in the core rules. If you wanted to take the time to write up augmentation effects for a portion of the spells in the PHB it could be a relatively easy way to let your casters adapt their magic a bit more to the situation at hand. :mage:
weasel fierce 05-27-05, 03:09 AM	Thats an interesting system as well, but unless your aim is mainly to make magic users more powerfull, some sort of counterbalance should be considered as well.
Arterion 05-27-05, 03:17 AM	There are some rules in the UA for augmentation, as well as spell points.
Sirix 05-27-05, 03:19 AM	Thats an interesting system as well, but unless your aim is mainly to make magic users more powerfull, some sort of counterbalance should be considered as well. True. The best solution would probably be to rachet down the base power level of augmentable spells, but that, again, requires more fiddling.
Tenzhi 05-27-05, 03:22 AM	I've been told that Ars Magica is a system to look into for ideas on how to do a freeform magic system in D&D. I haven't yet, however, so I can't vouch for the validity of the claim.
sabrewolf 06-14-05, 04:53 AM	For Sirix: The spell-points system from UA includes usage of metamagic that i guess works like psionic´s augmentations (i might be wrong since i barely overglanced the psi-book.. the player that once wanted to use it on a char changed mind and PC) For Arterion: Amusing lil sys you made up. I´ll want to know the results once you playtest it. :D For Leach (the main target of this post): I´ve put some thoughts on a modification along these lines. My idea was to instead of using normal spells to make them more general so fireball would be energy-ball, cone of cold Cone-of-energy and you´d have energy-bolt (line), energy-vertical-burst (cilinder, flamestrike) and the like all keeping their level and stats just being more generic.. There´d be a list of spells or ´effects´ for each element and a general list for universal ones like mage armour, shield, fly, ability boosts and so on... Not all spells would be there but that´s a trait of my (piece of) world.. Of course my foccus on this was an elemental campaign from my own (piece of) lil world, it´d have elements instead of schools but it could be adapted for it, leading possibly to a game where all mages are specialists.. For sphere/level increase either each CL would be assigned to one element; or each two CL you´d get one level in one element or you´d gain more - At first i´m aiming at mono-element maji wich would be rule-wise just like a mage/scorcerer and dual-element or paraelement users would be a PRC like the Mistical Theurge.. I was planning using this with the Spell Point system from UA (spared me of the trouble to adapt psionics ;) ) and either a scorcerer or a wizard with a spells known list instead of a grimoire. I´m still to playtest that as a side game to alternate with my main one (kind of a mood freshener or to vary in case i suceed to foccus more on roleplay on the main one). Any questions of the above ´mumblings´of a sketch of a system, i´ll be glad to clarify. I tryed to be brief about it not to risk boring you with my creations. :D
Me, Myself, & 101 others 06-16-05, 05:13 PM	I've never really read the Ars Magica system, but I heard somewhere that it was one of the inspirations for the Mage creators. Another good thing to look at for those who are thinking of adapting from the Mage system of magic would be Mage: The Sorcerer's Crusade. It takes place in a much earlier period, so it's closer to your typical D&D game than the World of Darkness is. It's in a time when most people still believe in magic, but they still have paradox (they call it scourge, I think). Basically, it doesn't matter so much what -everyone- thinks, it's more what the people in your area think. For example, if you're in a typical Middle-Ages style town and show up dressed up in a cheesy Merlin costum and wave around a staff while chanting pseudo-latin phrases, the population there are much more likely to believe in your magic than if you were dressed as an Eastern monk, sat down, meditated, and brought about the same effect. For another option for the free-form magic system, you might try revising the rules from the 2nd ed. Spells and Powers books. They had several variations on the spell point systems, with different methods for keeping them in check. I remember you would still pick spell slots, and each spell would cost a certain amount of points, and you could use the spell points to power any spell you had prepared. So far, that's not really any different, but they also allowed open or free slots, too. So, say you could cast three 3rd level spells, you could prepare those slots with Lightning Bolt, Dispel Magic, and keep the third slot 'free.' You could cast Lightning Bolt or Dispel as many times as you wanted, for a normal point cost. Or, you could use the 'free' slot to cast any third level spell you know at double the cost. All of those point systems had some form of drawback, though. In some, you got fatigued. Others brought you ever-closer to the insanity of obscure other-planar beings. Things like that. Some of them were really neat, I liked those options a lot. Also out of 2nd ed, there was supplement called 'The Complete Sha'ir's Handbook' printed for the Al-Qadim line. Despite being labeled for Sha'ir's, it was really a general sourcebook for Al-Qadim wizards in general. It also had several new 'kits' for wizards (for those who don't know, a kit in second edition was like a different class and/or prestige class for 3.0-3.5). One of those kits was the Ghul Lord. The Ghul Lord gave up access to all spells as a wizard except those that were solely of the necromancy school. In exchange, he got access to 'Manipulations.' A Ghul Lord's Manipulations came in four forms: Attack, Defense, Transportation, and Divination. They could do whatever they wanted out of those areas, once they had access to them, but it cost them. Basically, they were channelling their life-force into it. If, for example, a Ghul Lord wanted to make an effect identical to Fireball, he would need access to the Attack manipulation and it would cost him 3 hitpoints. Regular magic, and magic items, generally didn't work right for him, if I remember right, so he was forced to use natural healing to cure that damage. That's a lot of potential power, but a wizard is on d4 hitpoints. If he ever gets into a truly bad situation, he's on a count-down.
pangalactic 06-24-05, 09:00 PM	Now, one thing I've been toying with in the last day or two isn't so much freeform magic as freeformer magic. Not quite the "you can do anything" of Mage, but still very versatile. Here's what I'm envisioning (comments and suggestions welcome): A spellcaster with the "splice" ability is able to create new spells by splicing together bits of ones he already knows. The resulting spell takes up a slot equal to the two spliced spells' combined levels (cantrips count as 1), plus one level for every part of the spliced spell past the first. For example, a Sorcerer could take fireball and splice into it the "cold" descriptor from ray of frost in order to get a 10d6 coldball, which takes up a 4th level spell slot (3+1). Adding the "ray" descriptor onto that turns it into a 10d6 ray of cold that takes up a 5th level spell lot (3 for fireball, 1 for the "cold" part of ray of frost, 1 for the "ray" part). Does that make sense? I figure this would be a bit less rule-breaking than what I originally planned. I also think the easiest way to implement it would be as a metamagic feat. To compensate for the extreme versatility it would give, I'd have it permanently lower your spells per day by 1 at every spell level (ie: 1 less cantrip, 1 less 1st-level, 1 less 2nd-level, all the way to 9th). Does this seem a bit more workable? And a bit more balanced, I hope? I like this, very much so. And I can see how it would very easily be worked into an ongoing campaign (for example, the PCs storm a Mage's tower and find, among all his journals and such, the research he was doing on this. Once the group Wiz has read it all he has access to the Splice metamagic feat next time he gets a new Feat). As for balance, I really can't help - i'm relatively new to 3E, i've been playing 2nd ed AD&D for most of my life so i'm yet to get to grips with d20. I'd also like to see what people have to say about this, though.