Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xeviat-DM 12-22-05, 04:07 PM	Currently, a pre +6 BAB character without TWFing or Rapid Shot gains no advantage from using the Full Attack action. I don't like this; I'd like to see if we could alter Full Attack to grant something other than the bonus attacks, since the other three "stances" or "attack styles" have benefits for all (though total defense doesn't benefit someone with Combat Expertise and a 4 BAB or higher). Any ideas? Perhaps a bonus to hit but a penalty to AC?
Luega 12-22-05, 04:24 PM	You could make Spring Attack/Shot on the Run a maneuver available to all, albeit with a -4 (for example) penalty to the attack roll. Then make the appropriate feats eliminate the attack penalty and the AoO from the one you're attacking as normal. It's not strictly a full attack, but it uses all your available actions in a round. It also promotes mobility in combat, something i like.
BlingTheElf 12-22-05, 04:54 PM	I'm considering adding a new Full Attack action that allows one attack at +2 to hit for the same reason. Or +1 to hit and +1 to damage. If that seems too good, I'll make it just +1 to hit.
Luega 12-22-05, 05:03 PM	On a similar note, why does one have to take a feat to gain +2 attack/-4 AC (Reckless Offensive), while gaining +2 AC/-4 attack (Fighting Defensively) is available to all for free? And regarding the full attack thing, would one gain the bonuses even if one has multiple attacks, or do you have to choose between more attack/damage bonuses and more attacks?
Phoenix Knight 12-22-05, 05:19 PM	On a similar note, why does one have to take a feat to gain +2 attack/-4 AC (Reckless Offensive), while gaining +2 AC/-4 attack (Fighting Defensively) is available to all for free? And regarding the full attack thing, would one gain the bonuses even if one has multiple attacks, or do you have to choose between more attack/damage bonuses and more attacks? In Iron Heroes (the system I currently run), you can take what they call attack and defense challenges. You can take a penalty to your attack roll to gain an added benefit, or take a penalty to defense (AC) to gain a bonus on the next round. It sounds like this might be what you are looking for. Unfortunately, the material in question is not part of IH's OGL material, so I can't post it. I think this is a better method than requiring feats for something like reckless offensive. Currently, a pre +6 BAB character without TWFing or Rapid Shot gains no advantage from using the Full Attack action. I don't like this; I'd like to see if we could alter Full Attack to grant something other than the bonus attacks, since the other three "stances" or "attack styles" have benefits for all (though total defense doesn't benefit someone with Combat Expertise and a 4 BAB or higher). Any ideas? Perhaps a bonus to hit but a penalty to AC? To be honest, I'm not really a fan of the whole full attack action idea anyway. It seems like a person whirling around the battlefield should get all their attacks unless they move far (as was the case in some prior editions, IIRC). A radical option would be, as long your movement does not exceed your speed, you can take all your attacks, primary and off-hand. If your movement exceeds your speed, you receive only 1 attack. Of course, then you should make charge, better like maybe +4 attack, +2 damage. Considering the AC loss, I would rarely charge as it now stands anyway, unless I couldn't otherwise reach the target, so I don't think improving it is necessarily bad.
Xeviat-DM 12-23-05, 03:37 AM	After giving it some thought, I don't think a penalty to AC for a bonus to hit is fair, but a bonus to damage for a penalty to hit is perfectly fine. In fact, I've let people use a "fight recklessly" action, which is in effect a lesser power attack. Thinking on it further, "Fight Recklessly" might be the perfect option I'm looking for to replace full attack. And yes, you would need to use that action to gain multiple attacks, I think, if I were to go in that direction. But this solution doesn't seem right to me, so I don't think I'd actually take it. Fight Recklessly would be a nice combat option, though. As for where I got to thinking about this, I've recently began to play in a L5R game. In that game, there are three "stances"; full defense, attack, and full attack. Full Defense lets you use your "defense" skill, attack lets you move and attack, and full attack represents reckless abandon. Some abilities can only be used while full attacking, and full attacking gives you a number of "free raises" (a "raise" is where you voluntarily increase the TN, target number, similar to DC, of an action in order to gain special bonuses; free raises grant you these bonuses but don't increase the TN of the check), but also gives your opponent a number of free raises. So in the broadest sense of the term, when translating to d20, using full defense increases your attack roll but decreases your AC. +2 attack, -4 to AC seems to be the standard, and a feat would definately need to be introduced to aleviate that.
nastynate 12-23-05, 04:06 AM	The thing to remember about reckless attack is that it provides an attack bonus. This is powerful. +2 to attack from a feat is normally something only an 8th level fighter can get. Combine it with power attack and it adds +4 to damage instead [never mind frenzied berserker nuttiness]. Combine it with two-weapon fighting, and it completely off-sets that attack penalty. This is a truly powerful feat. As for fighting defensively or full defense at low levels. You can have a negative attack bonus. A first level character fighting defensively still gets -4 to hit. The maneuver does not say reduce your BAB by four; it says take a -4 penalty to attack rolls. Fighting defensively is terrible unless you happen to be a dervish w/ the two weapon defense feat chain. Then you get an extra +3 AC from greater two-weapon defense, +3 from fighting defensively [tumble ranks over four], and an additional +4 from the class. They also get a bonus to hit while performing a dervish dance, which helps off-set the attack penalty. I have used full defense before, like when I'm close to death, and I can't afford to get hit again; but even then I'm clinging to a wing and a prayor. Just my two cents
Tuah 12-24-05, 01:25 AM	Well, I think full attack wouldn't matter to a low-BAB character. Since they aren't as good with their fighting abilities, they wouldn't really know how to attack multiple times per round as efficiently. A single attack would probably be the entierity of their combat abilities.
Xeviat-DM 12-24-05, 04:52 AM	Well, I think full attack wouldn't matter to a low-BAB character. Since they aren't as good with their fighting abilities, they wouldn't really know how to attack multiple times per round as efficiently. A single attack would probably be the entierity of their combat abilities. The point is that I, and it seems a few others, want to make full attack usable by a low level character. Thus, we want to add some other ability to full attack other than the ability to make your itterative attacks. +2 to hit, -4 AC seems to be the "standard" if you reverse fight defensively; but that looks too scary to ever want to do.
Phoenix Knight 12-24-05, 11:28 AM	The point is that I, and it seems a few others, want to make full attack usable by a low level character. Thus, we want to add some other ability to full attack other than the ability to make your itterative attacks. +2 to hit, -4 AC seems to be the "standard" if you reverse fight defensively; but that looks too scary to ever want to do. Many characters might not mind at all. The barbarian expects to get hit and his DR/hit points to do the trick. The high AC paladin might be able to take a -4 and still have a decent AC. Plus high AC characters often have lower attack bonuses. I would think of it kind of like having Power Attack to use only against monsters you have realized are easy to hit, but harder to damage.