Post/Author/DateTime	Post
caeruleus 03-04-04, 02:08 AM	The discussion regarding the relative inferiority of the expert class compared to the other generic classes has got me thinking. Allow me to propose yet another suggestion on how one might modify it. Skill Points: 8 + Int modifier (x4 at 1st level). Choose any 16 skills as class skills, plus Craft and Profession. Proficient with all simple weapons and two martial weapons. Furthermore, allow the expert (and only the expert) to gain bonus class abilities, rather than bonus feats; spellcasters and warriors can only choose bonus feats (well, spellcasters can choose the summon familiar class ability, but that's it). The expert would choose a special ability at level one, and at every even numbered level. The list from which they can choose these special abilities follows. From those listed in UA: Evasion Favored Terrain (my preference, although you can keep Favored Enemy if you like) Greater Sneak Attack Improved Evasion Improved Sneak Attack Sneak Attack Trap Sense Uncanny Dodge Wild Empathy Plus, I would also add the following: Fast Movement (speed +10 in no armor or light armor, with a light or medium load) Woodland Stride (as ranger ability - prereq: Suvival 9 ranks) Camouflage (as ranger ability - prereq: Hide 15 ranks) Hide in Plain Sight (as ranger ability - prereq: Camouglage, Hide 19 ranks) Skill Mastery (as rogue special ability) Giving the expert bonus class abilities rather than bonus feats helps (in my mind) differentiate them more from the warrior. The class abilities I have chosen are geared towards making the expert be a sort of rogue or ranger. So, what do people think of this? Does it look balanced? Draco Caeruleus
bitnine 03-04-04, 04:17 AM	That's probably not too bad of an idea. What you should try to keep in mind is what roles the expert is attempting to cover, and determine which classes that equates to, and what basic class mechanics might be most common to the core of that role. Keeping this as support/utility is probably the way to go, and features like tracking and trap sense and the like do focus in on that.
Belegbeth 03-04-04, 01:39 PM	Interesting suggestion, though it risks making the "generic classes" a bit less generic. As you point out, it pushes the Expert into a "rogue or skilled ranger" mold. It also prevents the Warrior from being a "footpad" (warrior with hide, sneak attack) or a "combat-oriented ranger." That is fine, and probably reasonably balanced, but it means that building a "footpad" or "wilderness fighter" will require creating a multiclass character. On the other hand, it *does* make each of the three classes more distinctive: the warrior is focused on combat, the expert is the "skills and special abilities" guy, and the spellcaster is the pure magic. It might be preferable to my own set of recommendations. :D (My recommendations: more skill points for the warrior (4/level); more skill points, weapon proficiencies, and hit points for the Expert (8 skill points/level, 3 martial weapons, and d8 HD; these changes are meant to both balance the class with the others, and make the expert a bit more combat worthy); and more hit points for the Spellcaster (d6, to make her a bit tougher).) Using your alternative, caeruleus, I would consider "upgrading" the HD of each class (warrior d12; expert d8; spellcaster d6) to make them more equal in power vis-a-vis the standard classes. Otherwise, it looks very promising...
caeruleus 03-04-04, 01:52 PM	Thanks for both of your comments. Belegbeth, I like the recommendations you've made in other threads, and which one is "preferable" depends on what one wants from generic classes. If you want to be able to build your footpad or wilderness fighter, then your version works better. Personally, I'd like each class to fit a (generic) mold. Regarding increasing the hit die of each class, that's something I was also thinking of doing. Throw in a defense bonus (column A for the spellcaster, column B for the expert, column C for the warrior), and give the spellcaster spell points per day as a sorcerer, and I'll be happy with these classes. Draco
Belegbeth 03-06-04, 04:38 PM	Why not add Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Music to the list of class abilities that the Expert can choose from? I would treat Bardic Music as one class ability (you get all the first level abilities), and Inspire Competence, Suggestion, etc., as additional class abilities, to be chosen later (with relevant performance requirements, and the requirement that the earlier abilities be chosen as well). This way, you have at least three distinct "paths" for the Expert: the "thief" path, the "ranger" path, and the 'bard' path. Of course, the Expert could also choose a little from each as well. A "bardic" Expert would be comparable to the standard Bard in terms of abilities: the Expert would have better HD (if you upgrade to d8), more skills, more flexibility, but no spells (and not all the class abilities at once). This suggestion aside, the more I think about your approach, the more I like it. It works better than my own (which I see now undermines the usefulness of the Expert as a distinct class). I am not sure about giving Spellcasters the Sorcerer's spell points, though. That looks unbalancing, given the Spellcaster's wide selection of spells and additional feats. I would give the Spellcaster the Wizard spell points instead.
Tam 03-06-04, 07:47 PM	One idea: Abilities that have a limited number of use a day (like barbarian rage) could be treated as spells...
caeruleus 03-08-04, 07:07 PM	I like the idea of including bardic abilities as expert abilities, since that fits in with how I think of the expert. It makes sense that the jack-of-all-trades generic class potentially have some of the abilities of the jack-of-all-trades standard class. Regarding spellcaster spell points, given that the spellcaster has more spells per day than the wizard, I think they should get more spell points. I thought of giving them spell points halfway in between wizards and sorcerers, but spellcasters have more spells per day than halfway between these classes. In fact, they only have slightly less spells per day than the sorcerer. So that's why I just figured on giving them the sorcerer's amount of spell points. Draco