Generic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Generic feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Braids
01-16-05, 07:39 PM I've liked the idea of the Generic classes, but I have always disliked the idea that a character can multiclass as two levels of warrior, two levels of expert and one level of spellcaster to gain 5 Bonus feats, so I have come up with two possible ideas of fixing this.

The first is to take away favored classes and say that all multiclassing will be treated as though you had uneven levels[-20% to xp (pg 60 of the PHB)].

I went through a couple ideas that didn't fix my my main problem which was the Expert/Fighter Combo before finding the one I liked best.
Instead of gaining a bonus feat in their first class, they instead gain a bonus feat for their overal first class level...but not their first level in any other class.
After the first level, each class would continue it's bonus feat progression as normal.
Ex1: A Warrior 2/Expert 2 would have a bonus feat from their first class level, a bonus feat from the second level of warrior and a bonus feat from the second level of Expert.
Ex2:A warrior 1/spellcaster 5 would have 1 bonus feat from his first class level and a bonus feat from his 5th level of spellcaster.

Does this seem like an ok way of handling this problem? Which idea seems like the best to you?

Please keepn in mind that aside from that one little problem, I like the Generic classes and do not wish to use one of the alternate versions posted on this board.
Thanks for reading, especially if you posted.
Nani?
01-16-05, 08:37 PM I disagree that thier is a problem. If you were using the generic rules, this is exactly how you would go about creating classes like Ranger (say, expert 2, warrior 3, divine spellcaster 1) or Paladin (warrior 5 divine spellcaster 1) or a host of other things. In fact, you should probably be encourageing multiclassing.
Even without generics, one point of multiclassing is to create realistic concepts/ backgrounds. For example, if I to create a Sorcerer (assumeing we're starting with at least 2nd level characters) raised in a desert nomad culture I might put my 1st level in Ranger or wilderness Rogue to simulate background and never add another level. A "swashbuckler" can be created by simply multiclassing as Rogue 3, fighter 2 and sc*w the "complete" series. This is one of the points of multiclassing.

One of the ideas behind the generics is to open up roleplaying possiblities. Say I wanted to create a "Sorcerer" who's magic came deep instinctual (rather then the trained druid way) connection with animals and plants. I could define it as arcane spellcasting (charisma based), get a feat like wild empathy as 1st level "bonus feat" and escew materials as my regular 1st level feat. I would pick a combination of skills simular to the Druid and Sorcerer and I would be set. The result is a unique, interesting character concept.
The idea behind this would be a young child in a frontier area who saw a little too much time with the fey in the forest and hence became "greentouched".
If this is an idea that appeals to you and your not an abusive munchkin, you should use the generics.
On the other hand, if what I just suggested fills you with horror and you prefer a "standard" game where everyone is nice, predictable (and to me, unrealistic) fighters/wizards/clerics just use standard phb rules and get forbid/heavily penalize multiclassing.
Totally your choice, and nothing is wrong with either of them.

All the Best,

Nani?
Xeviat-DM
01-17-05, 05:46 AM Don't penalize all multiclassers; in fact, don't penalize multiclassers at all. You'll need to give something to humans to compensate (I'd give humans +2 to 2 skills) for not having the advantage with the favored class (any) anymore.

Your idea about dropping the first level bonus feat and just having all characters gain a bonus feat at first level is a good one. I think it will curb abuse. But, one thing you need to consider is that the first level needs to be more powerful under standard multiclassing rules because of the way BAB and base saves works.

I suggest using fractional BAB and Saves, as well as only applying a character's 1st level +2 bonus to their high save once to each score. In fact, in my class writeups, I'm considering writing that bonus as a bonus feat Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will. This way people can't stack their saves to the cealing. And they won't take huge BAB hits.

Your example Warrior2/Expert2/Spellcaster1 will have 5 bonus feats, but they will also only have a 3 BAB. While that is how much a 3/4ths bab person should have ... they really have a BAB of +4.

So, give them something in return for taking away that bonus feat.
Braids
01-17-05, 08:00 PM I suggest using fractional BAB and Saves,

Yea, I plan to use fractional saves since they give a more organic feel to the BAB and Saves bonus.

as well as only applying a character's 1st level +2 bonus to their high save once to each score. In fact, in my class writeups, I'm considering writing that bonus as a bonus feat Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will. This way people can't stack their saves to the cealing. And they won't take huge BAB hits.
I think I may understand what you're saying...do you mean that the first level saves of any class should all be +2, then follow the normal save progression? Thus being +3/+3/+6 at 5th level, +5/+5/+9 at 10th level and so on?
Xeviat-DM
01-19-05, 12:46 PM I think I may understand what you're saying...do you mean that the first level saves of any class should all be +2, then follow the normal save progression? Thus being +3/+3/+6 at 5th level, +5/+5/+9 at 10th level and so on?

Not quite. Let us use your example of the Warrior 2 (High Fort), Expert 2 (High Fort and Ref), and Spellcaster 1 (High Will).

Under the standard rules, the character would look like the following:

BAB: +3
Saves: F +6, R +3, W +2
Bonus Feats: 5

Under my suggested rules, the rules I would use if I ever used this system, low saves are 1/3 character level, and high saves are 1/2 character level +2; but a character only gains the +2 for a high save once per saving throw, thus a character couldn't take high reflex with all three of their classes to boost their evasion to the sky. The character would look like the following:

BAB: +4
Saves: F +4 1/3, R +4, W +3 1/3
Bonus Feats: 3

See? Much more reasonable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Braids 01-16-05, 07:39 PM	I've liked the idea of the Generic classes, but I have always disliked the idea that a character can multiclass as two levels of warrior, two levels of expert and one level of spellcaster to gain 5 Bonus feats, so I have come up with two possible ideas of fixing this. The first is to take away favored classes and say that all multiclassing will be treated as though you had uneven levels[-20% to xp (pg 60 of the PHB)]. I went through a couple ideas that didn't fix my my main problem which was the Expert/Fighter Combo before finding the one I liked best. Instead of gaining a bonus feat in their first class, they instead gain a bonus feat for their overal first class level...but not their first level in any other class. After the first level, each class would continue it's bonus feat progression as normal. Ex1: A Warrior 2/Expert 2 would have a bonus feat from their first class level, a bonus feat from the second level of warrior and a bonus feat from the second level of Expert. Ex2:A warrior 1/spellcaster 5 would have 1 bonus feat from his first class level and a bonus feat from his 5th level of spellcaster. Does this seem like an ok way of handling this problem? Which idea seems like the best to you? Please keepn in mind that aside from that one little problem, I like the Generic classes and do not wish to use one of the alternate versions posted on this board. Thanks for reading, especially if you posted.
Nani? 01-16-05, 08:37 PM	I disagree that thier is a problem. If you were using the generic rules, this is exactly how you would go about creating classes like Ranger (say, expert 2, warrior 3, divine spellcaster 1) or Paladin (warrior 5 divine spellcaster 1) or a host of other things. In fact, you should probably be encourageing multiclassing. Even without generics, one point of multiclassing is to create realistic concepts/ backgrounds. For example, if I to create a Sorcerer (assumeing we're starting with at least 2nd level characters) raised in a desert nomad culture I might put my 1st level in Ranger or wilderness Rogue to simulate background and never add another level. A "swashbuckler" can be created by simply multiclassing as Rogue 3, fighter 2 and sc*w the "complete" series. This is one of the points of multiclassing. One of the ideas behind the generics is to open up roleplaying possiblities. Say I wanted to create a "Sorcerer" who's magic came deep instinctual (rather then the trained druid way) connection with animals and plants. I could define it as arcane spellcasting (charisma based), get a feat like wild empathy as 1st level "bonus feat" and escew materials as my regular 1st level feat. I would pick a combination of skills simular to the Druid and Sorcerer and I would be set. The result is a unique, interesting character concept. The idea behind this would be a young child in a frontier area who saw a little too much time with the fey in the forest and hence became "greentouched". If this is an idea that appeals to you and your not an abusive munchkin, you should use the generics. On the other hand, if what I just suggested fills you with horror and you prefer a "standard" game where everyone is nice, predictable (and to me, unrealistic) fighters/wizards/clerics just use standard phb rules and get forbid/heavily penalize multiclassing. Totally your choice, and nothing is wrong with either of them. All the Best, Nani?
Xeviat-DM 01-17-05, 05:46 AM	Don't penalize all multiclassers; in fact, don't penalize multiclassers at all. You'll need to give something to humans to compensate (I'd give humans +2 to 2 skills) for not having the advantage with the favored class (any) anymore. Your idea about dropping the first level bonus feat and just having all characters gain a bonus feat at first level is a good one. I think it will curb abuse. But, one thing you need to consider is that the first level needs to be more powerful under standard multiclassing rules because of the way BAB and base saves works. I suggest using fractional BAB and Saves, as well as only applying a character's 1st level +2 bonus to their high save once to each score. In fact, in my class writeups, I'm considering writing that bonus as a bonus feat Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will. This way people can't stack their saves to the cealing. And they won't take huge BAB hits. Your example Warrior2/Expert2/Spellcaster1 will have 5 bonus feats, but they will also only have a 3 BAB. While that is how much a 3/4ths bab person should have ... they really have a BAB of +4. So, give them something in return for taking away that bonus feat.
Braids 01-17-05, 08:00 PM	I suggest using fractional BAB and Saves, Yea, I plan to use fractional saves since they give a more organic feel to the BAB and Saves bonus. as well as only applying a character's 1st level +2 bonus to their high save once to each score. In fact, in my class writeups, I'm considering writing that bonus as a bonus feat Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, or Iron Will. This way people can't stack their saves to the cealing. And they won't take huge BAB hits. I think I may understand what you're saying...do you mean that the first level saves of any class should all be +2, then follow the normal save progression? Thus being +3/+3/+6 at 5th level, +5/+5/+9 at 10th level and so on?
Xeviat-DM 01-19-05, 12:46 PM	I think I may understand what you're saying...do you mean that the first level saves of any class should all be +2, then follow the normal save progression? Thus being +3/+3/+6 at 5th level, +5/+5/+9 at 10th level and so on? Not quite. Let us use your example of the Warrior 2 (High Fort), Expert 2 (High Fort and Ref), and Spellcaster 1 (High Will). Under the standard rules, the character would look like the following: BAB: +3 Saves: F +6, R +3, W +2 Bonus Feats: 5 Under my suggested rules, the rules I would use if I ever used this system, low saves are 1/3 character level, and high saves are 1/2 character level +2; but a character only gains the +2 for a high save once per saving throw, thus a character couldn't take high reflex with all three of their classes to boost their evasion to the sky. The character would look like the following: BAB: +4 Saves: F +4 1/3, R +4, W +3 1/3 Bonus Feats: 3 See? Much more reasonable.