Post/Author/DateTime	Post
God of Slivers 04-19-04, 10:33 PM	I've been looking for a way to make the sorcerer better and I like the idea of the generic spellcaster. I'm planning on more or less modifying the sorcerer a bit to let him select his spells like the generic spellcaster, but still having set skill lists and special abilities and saves and such. Has anyone used a generic spellcaster with the phb classes? I would like to know how balanced it is compared to the other primary casters.
Ulden Throatbane 04-19-04, 10:57 PM	Bear in mind that the generic classes aren't meant to be used with the standard core classes. Having said that, I can't offer much advice on how to balance the generic spellcaster with the other classes. Sorry.
caeruleus 04-20-04, 02:39 PM	I just started DMing a campaign with one other player (something for us to do when we're not playing with the rest of our group), and I've decided to use the generic spellcaster with the other PH classes. I've basically disallowed bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards, and allowed the spellcaster (among a few other variant classes), but I've selected a specific list of class skills, and made the Will save the good one. I really have no idea how this will go, but I felt like experimenting with the idea just for fun. We've only played once, and there was no combat, just roleplaying, so I don't yet have any data for you. But I recomend trying this out, and make sure that you make clear to your players that it's only an experiment, and if it doesn't work out, then you may decide to change things. Draco Caeruleus
Votan 04-20-04, 10:34 PM	Personally I think that the generic spellcaster is the perfect substitute for the sorcerer. It handles all of the weaknesses that people point out that the class has and allows the character to be extremely flexible. I approve. Of course the party line is the generics are not meant to be used with regular classes. But the generic sorcerer really fits the multiplicity of backgrounds that a sorcerer is supposed to have. You can picks skills, spells and feats to represent an infinite variety of backgrounds and ways for the power to manifest. Plus it just seems more balanced.
God of Slivers 04-21-04, 11:01 AM	Actually I was still thinking about keeping the skill list set. I wouldn't use the same skills as the phb sorcerer, as i think they need a little more cha based skills, but it would still be a set list. It's not that i dont like the idea of being able to choose your skills, but when combined with the other phb classes it doesnt make sense. I guess when I say I'm using the generic spellcaster I'm more or less just using his ability to select any cleric, druid, and wiz spell. There are a few minor changes I'm making along with that, but I think that gives him the boost that he needed. What I would like to hear are any opinions about him steping on the other primary casters toes a little. I don't think that it would make any of the other classes less appealing, just make the sorcerer more so. Any thoughts on that?
Ulden Throatbane 04-21-04, 12:57 PM	Given the limited spells known of the spellcaster, I don't think it should be too much of a problem to give them broader access. However, you may wind up with weird results: Spellcaster: I cast miracle. Deity: Um, exactly why am I doing this for you? Spellcaster: Because I'm pretty!! :angel: {shows off 23 charisma score} Deity: Awww, how cute! {grants miracle}
Michael Tree 04-21-04, 01:51 PM	Originally posted by God of Slivers Has anyone used a generic spellcaster with the phb classes? I would like to know how balanced it is compared to the other primary casters. The balance might be very case-specific, depending on what combinations of spells they learn. There's just too much variability to judge them as a whole. My instincts are that they would be balanced, but you might want to remove the sorcerer.
caeruleus 04-21-04, 03:14 PM	God of Slivers... if you replace the sorcerer with the spellcaster, would you still allow the spellcaster to cast spells without penalty in armor? That's something I'm not sure of myself... Draco Caeruleus
God of Slivers 04-21-04, 06:12 PM	No, he would still cast arcane spells, ergo, he would still have arcane spell failure. One thing I have to do is to fix the exalted arcanist. Seeing as that prc grants new spells, most of which are on the cleric list, it's kinda useless now. Any suggestions on a fix? A little off topic, but its my thread so nah.:D
Wil_Hyral 04-21-04, 08:46 PM	I would approve it with spell points, because I think spellpoints remove the system of spontaneity, which benefits chiefly the sorcerer and bard. Sans spell points, I don't think it would be balanced. But sans spell points, I actually think the sorcerer is balanced. Wizards normally have to pay a pesky little tax on Xp to purchase spontaneity known as "item crafting," and sorcerers get to neglect that tax.
Ulden Throatbane 04-21-04, 09:30 PM	Originally posted by God of Slivers One thing I have to do is to fix the exalted arcanist. Seeing as that prc grants new spells, most of which are on the cleric list, it's kinda useless now. Any suggestions on a fix? A little off topic, but its my thread so nah.:D Actually, the awsomeness of the E.A. lies not with the extalted spell list, but with the ability to use sanctified spells as though they are among your spells known. Not only is this class the only way for a spontaneous spellcaster to use sanctified spells, but it has the added benefit of increasing the number of spells a sorcerer knows by almost 80%. No other PrC from WotC comes anywhere near to doing this much for the sorcerer class. So my point would be that it doesn't really need a fix. If you still feel strongly about it, then give it full caster progression.
God of Slivers 04-21-04, 11:07 PM	I know the best part of the ea is the sanctified spells, but if the sorcerer gets access to all of the cleric spells anyways, then he loses a class ability. I just wanted opinions on what would be good to replace that with. I was thinking about allowing him to cast as a celestial or archon or eladrin, etc, but that might be too much. Does anybody see how allowing the sorcerer access to the druid and cleric spell list would make those classes less attractive? I can't see any serious threats to the classes, but I'd like some outside opinions.
Ulden Throatbane 04-22-04, 01:22 AM	I don't think it should be too much of a problem. The fact that he's drawing from all major lists means he only has a few spells (mabye just 1/level) from each list. Although again, arcane miracle does seem a bit...strange.
Votan 04-22-04, 08:31 AM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane Although again, arcane miracle does seem a bit...strange. It seems to have the flavcor of a negotiation rather than a request. There are several good fictional examples of a spellcaster petitioning a diety for help and this spell would represent it. But, if the character wants to take advantage of this, he would have to roleplay a reason for the diety to be interested. One little spell, a universe of motivational possibilities.
Reney 05-22-04, 08:07 AM	I was thinking of doing the same thing myself. My friend and I are both making Arcane casters, but I think it'll make some weird spell choices. Summon Nature's Ally will probably take over Summon Monster for most Sorcs using this variant. I don't know how many people use the Minatures Handbook as a spell source, but I wouldn't mind having a Sorc with a chance to cast Revivify half a dozen times per day. (Like True Resurection, but Level 5, 1,000 gp, and you have to do it within one round.) Sorcs have never ended up being up to par with everyone else in our games. No matter what he can do there's usually another spellcaster (in the party) who can do it better. I think it'd be really cool if Sorcs are the middle ground between Arcane and Divine Magic. I might even allow them to use items as any class they've taken spells from. It probably wouldn't slow the game down much since they still only have one turn per round and a rogue with decent UMD can practically do the same thing.
Lia Nightdemon 05-22-04, 08:30 PM	Here's what you do use the generic spellcaster as the sorcerer, use the sorcerer's spell list, only the level before the level in which the sorcerer gains a new level of spells, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th let the sorcerer have a 0 in the next highest spell level so a 3rd level sorc has spells 0-6 1-5 2-0* *The sorcerer can use any bonus spells granted from high ability score
Reney 05-22-04, 08:41 PM	:behold: That wouldn't fly in my game. Not only would he have limited spells known he'd only have about as many spells as a specialized wizard. Wait, wait. I get it. So they'd have the same spell level progression as the wizard, but doesn't turn into a machine gun until the level after?
Lia Nightdemon 05-22-04, 09:07 PM	also the lose of familiar is also a pretty hard hit. It should be the caster choice, they can instead of a standard feat beable to summon a familiar, it should be treated as a feat. or a special ability why should the sorcerer lose her friend she will more likely then the wizard be hanging around with a pet besides without this ability she can't get the more powerful familiar feats, like improved familiar, and dragon familiar The archmage should be able to choose the ability to summon a familiar too
princeofcincinnati 05-22-04, 09:51 PM	Or you could just use both of them. One is not more powerful then the other. they are just different. compare. SC do not get familiars, but they get a feat for whatever they qualify for. That makes up for the familiar(if you pick a good feat) Sorcerers have choice of any simple weapon, SC only one. BUT Sc gets choice of skills while the soc has a set class list They cast and regain spells the same and are able to change spells the same. The sorcerer gets more spells per day, but the SC get to pick from all the spell lists.
Boberto 05-22-04, 11:02 PM	Originally posted by Ulden Throatbane Given the limited spells known of the spellcaster, I don't think it should be too much of a problem to give them broader access. However, you may wind up with weird results: Spellcaster: I cast miracle. Deity: Um, exactly why am I doing this for you? Spellcaster: Because I'm pretty!! :angel: {shows off 23 charisma score} Deity: Awww, how cute! {grants miracle} :rofl: I think the idea of using the generic spallcaster is a good idea. Although, there are a lot of things you have to put in the equasion if you're the DM. You have to consider the play-style of your characters first. If they are power-gamers, it might not be a good idea. And trust me, if you give a power-gamer an inch, they want a free potion of heal. If you give them a free potion, they're going to want... (catch my idea here). Anyway, as an experienced DM, I would recommend that their selection as a class character would have to have a good character history to back it up. If they mix spells from different core classes, you better have a good reason as to why the heck you did that, and them make me believe it's logical and probable enough. You don't need to be @nal on the subject, just make sure that the player has actually put thought into their PC. Other than that, I say it deserves a field test, and if it becomes broken, fix it (if you're the DM, which I assume you are in this case). DM's are all powerful masters of all existance by the way. :D