Gestalt and Power Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt and Power Points [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Arabeth
02-25-07, 03:07 PM I realize this probably must have been asked before, but I searched a lot and couldn't find it anywhere!

Could anyone provide me with a link or a quote from some official understanding on wether PP from differnt classes would stack in gestalt?

Example, would a psion / wilder get double the regular ammount of pp for his class?

Useful quotes from the SRD:

"If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. "
bartleby42
02-25-07, 03:14 PM Yes by RAW a gestalt Psion//Wilder has lots of PP, that being said nearly everyone house rules it so they must be seperate, and anywho, a Psion//Wilder isn't nearly as potent as other combinations. So if you really want to push for this with your DM go for it. You have the letter of the rules on your side if not the spirt.
sren
02-25-07, 03:54 PM I agree with bartleby42. The rules suggest that they should stack, but a psion//wilder is a really limited character. Having run one long-running gestalt game and started another, I don't think ultra focussed characters are anywhere near as fun nor even as powerful as more diverse characters.

The original point of gestalt characters is diversity, allowing one character to cover multiple party roles in small groups. In normal sized or larger groups, the most enjoyable benefits are group stamina and much greater diversity.

A psion//wilder is basically just a wilder with more power points and powers. While you can argue that this adds to stamina and diversity, you'd only be barely right. You'll have less HP than the rest of the party unless you rely on the vigor power, you'll have lower saves than most other combinations, you only get INT+2 for skills, and you only really ever have the options of a psion in combat. Your only bonus is that if you survive the encounters, you can spend more power points. Another consideration is power/spell resistance or immunity; which is something else gestalt deals with nicely.

If you really want to play a psychic with extra power points, check out complete psionic, which offers three additional base classes, two of which let you bring more to the group than lots of power points. The Lurk gives you better HD, good ref save, more skills, better BAB and a host of rogue-like combat options in addition to more powers and power points. A psion or wilder gestalted with lurk won't be completely helpless in an anti-magic/psionic field because of his better BAB (rogue BAB), higher HD, good REF save and extra skill points. Against a creature with SR/PR, he can use power points on his lurk augments (combat options that cost power points) to deal additional damage or hinder/disable foes when his powers are likely to be resisted.

The Divine Mind (also from complete psionic) is a psychic cleric (sort of). In addition to additional power and power points (at level 6), they have medium BAB, d10 HD, good fort save and get aura powers that let him boost his allies (or in some cases hurt his enemies). As with the lurk, he's at least able to survive melee combat if his power fail him, and he gives a little different flavor in abilities. He does suffer from the INT+2 for skill points, however.

If you're the DM and just want an opponent with lots of power points, then you have lucky players, because it will be just as easy a fight as playing against a non-gestalt unless you have access to time stop (or similar abilities).

Hope that was helpfull,
S'Ren
Arabeth
02-25-07, 06:49 PM I agree with all of that, but it's actually an arena game, so I just want wilder / anarchic initiate for the extra damage and wild surge, while using psion to get the real powers... plus it allows me a lot of power diversity and INSANE power point expenditure, wich is great if you can spend them all in one encounter, as happens in arena games....

Anyway, the DM's are taking this quote from gestalt rules in UA:

"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

They think PP classifies as one of those class features that two classes share, so if anyone could PLEASE direct me to an official quote that would help me convince them they are wrong I would really appreciate it!
sren
02-25-07, 07:53 PM This is part of a long argument that won't be solved as long as the majority of the DnD community still dislikes anything even remotely related to psionics. Many gestalt DMs still believe that it is perfectly fair that a sorcerer//wizard gestalt should get all of the spells known and spells per day for both classes, but psionic gestalts shouldn't. Its just a long held prejudice against psions (unless the DM running the arena game gives the same limit to Sorc//wizard combos). You could suggest to him that the pools should be kept separate to make it closer to arcane casting combos, but that will be a pain to keep track of.

Sorry I'm not aware of wizards providing an official solution to this argument.
Draz74
02-26-07, 07:41 PM They think PP classifies as one of those class features that two classes share, so if anyone could PLEASE direct me to an official quote that would help me convince them they are wrong I would really appreciate it!

Problem: Gestalt doesn't get supported by "official quotes." While fun, it's an optional rule and one that has plenty of balance problems anyway, so Wizards doesn't bother trying to keep it under control with official rulings.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arabeth 02-25-07, 03:07 PM	I realize this probably must have been asked before, but I searched a lot and couldn't find it anywhere! Could anyone provide me with a link or a quote from some official understanding on wether PP from differnt classes would stack in gestalt? Example, would a psion / wilder get double the regular ammount of pp for his class? Useful quotes from the SRD: "If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have. "
bartleby42 02-25-07, 03:14 PM	Yes by RAW a gestalt Psion//Wilder has lots of PP, that being said nearly everyone house rules it so they must be seperate, and anywho, a Psion//Wilder isn't nearly as potent as other combinations. So if you really want to push for this with your DM go for it. You have the letter of the rules on your side if not the spirt.
sren 02-25-07, 03:54 PM	I agree with bartleby42. The rules suggest that they should stack, but a psion//wilder is a really limited character. Having run one long-running gestalt game and started another, I don't think ultra focussed characters are anywhere near as fun nor even as powerful as more diverse characters. The original point of gestalt characters is diversity, allowing one character to cover multiple party roles in small groups. In normal sized or larger groups, the most enjoyable benefits are group stamina and much greater diversity. A psion//wilder is basically just a wilder with more power points and powers. While you can argue that this adds to stamina and diversity, you'd only be barely right. You'll have less HP than the rest of the party unless you rely on the vigor power, you'll have lower saves than most other combinations, you only get INT+2 for skills, and you only really ever have the options of a psion in combat. Your only bonus is that if you survive the encounters, you can spend more power points. Another consideration is power/spell resistance or immunity; which is something else gestalt deals with nicely. If you really want to play a psychic with extra power points, check out complete psionic, which offers three additional base classes, two of which let you bring more to the group than lots of power points. The Lurk gives you better HD, good ref save, more skills, better BAB and a host of rogue-like combat options in addition to more powers and power points. A psion or wilder gestalted with lurk won't be completely helpless in an anti-magic/psionic field because of his better BAB (rogue BAB), higher HD, good REF save and extra skill points. Against a creature with SR/PR, he can use power points on his lurk augments (combat options that cost power points) to deal additional damage or hinder/disable foes when his powers are likely to be resisted. The Divine Mind (also from complete psionic) is a psychic cleric (sort of). In addition to additional power and power points (at level 6), they have medium BAB, d10 HD, good fort save and get aura powers that let him boost his allies (or in some cases hurt his enemies). As with the lurk, he's at least able to survive melee combat if his power fail him, and he gives a little different flavor in abilities. He does suffer from the INT+2 for skill points, however. If you're the DM and just want an opponent with lots of power points, then you have lucky players, because it will be just as easy a fight as playing against a non-gestalt unless you have access to time stop (or similar abilities). Hope that was helpfull, S'Ren
Arabeth 02-25-07, 06:49 PM	I agree with all of that, but it's actually an arena game, so I just want wilder / anarchic initiate for the extra damage and wild surge, while using psion to get the real powers... plus it allows me a lot of power diversity and INSANE power point expenditure, wich is great if you can spend them all in one encounter, as happens in arena games.... Anyway, the DM's are taking this quote from gestalt rules in UA: "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." They think PP classifies as one of those class features that two classes share, so if anyone could PLEASE direct me to an official quote that would help me convince them they are wrong I would really appreciate it!
sren 02-25-07, 07:53 PM	This is part of a long argument that won't be solved as long as the majority of the DnD community still dislikes anything even remotely related to psionics. Many gestalt DMs still believe that it is perfectly fair that a sorcerer//wizard gestalt should get all of the spells known and spells per day for both classes, but psionic gestalts shouldn't. Its just a long held prejudice against psions (unless the DM running the arena game gives the same limit to Sorc//wizard combos). You could suggest to him that the pools should be kept separate to make it closer to arcane casting combos, but that will be a pain to keep track of. Sorry I'm not aware of wizards providing an official solution to this argument.
Draz74 02-26-07, 07:41 PM	They think PP classifies as one of those class features that two classes share, so if anyone could PLEASE direct me to an official quote that would help me convince them they are wrong I would really appreciate it! Problem: Gestalt doesn't get supported by "official quotes." While fun, it's an optional rule and one that has plenty of balance problems anyway, so Wizards doesn't bother trying to keep it under control with official rulings.