Gestalt and Prestige Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt and Prestige Classes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JoAT
02-25-04, 07:23 PM I know that thereis a glut of Gestalt threads out there right now, but, I'd like to get some ideas about how to have it interact with prestige classes - specificaly, +1 caster level classes and classes that sit on the border of being two seprate classes, and basicly help out multiclass combos.

First and foremost, I've got something of a problem with the +1 caster level classes - they don't 'feel' right anymore, when used with gestalt. I know that most of them are designed to be used with standard character classes, and that they pack alot of punch, under most circumstances. But, the thing is, with the new gestalt rules, suddenly any down side that they had vanishes, makeing them even more (proporionetly) powerful - what does an Archmage with d12 hitdice, full BAB and damage reduction worry about, anyways? So, I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas for re-vamping these classes, playing around with them, or maybe even expanding them to be 'Prestige Gestalts', takeing up both class levels...?

As for borderline multiclasses... Well, which ones would you say are ban-able for the Gestalt concept? Which ones cross over too much, and become too much of a good thing?
DragonWatcher
02-25-04, 08:26 PM I have been considering... considering mind you, adding some option for using Gestalt characters in my game. However, honestly, I think that I am going to refrain because I want to keep the characters that I have to a lower power level.

While (unlike some others) I don't think that Gestalt play is inherently broken, I also do not that that you can use this option and have a reasonable expectation of keeping the characters power low. Like you said... what does an archmage with d12, hit dice, a full attack, multiple good saves, and a full spell load have to worry about? Uh... pretty much another gestalt archmage... ;)

Anyhow, I really wouldn't worry about using prestige classes as printed. If they have an appeal to the players for their characters, and fit into your game world... then let the players try to take them. If they don't boost their characters as much as they normally would... no big loss. I'll bet that they're not hurting the characters either.

As for creating 2-slot Gestalt Prestige Classes... this is interesting, but the problem that I have a hard time getting my mind around is what can you give the character that has everything? You get such a wide array of abilities just by running a gestalt character, that the idea of a gestalt PrC is a bit overwhelming to me.

I'm sure that it can be done... and that flavor can be added, but I just have a hard time seeing flavor in that case not being overshadowed by sheer power.
strenoth
02-25-04, 09:26 PM actually, a hyped-up multi-class PrC migth be appropriate. for example:

a 2-slot version of the spell sword might have full casting progression and increased abilities, like faster ignoring of spell failure and increased chanelling
CompleteSatori
02-26-04, 01:11 AM I agree with Dragon, and will add this 2 cp.

PrC's taken in Gestalt builds are no more powerful than they would be in a non Gestalt build, its that second class stacked on top of it that makes Gestalt a high power game option. Remember that gestalt is a variant used for games that WANT high power level, and/or need to make up for a lack of player characters in party. You have already bought into a power game, so adjust the CRs according to the given advice in UA, and play on.

This character, PrC or no, is going to be more powerful than a standard character, and with a PrC is going to be about as much more powerful compared to a non PrC Gestalt class, as a standard class is going to be without access to PrC. Again, not unbalancing.
JoAT
02-26-04, 02:44 AM Originally posted by CompleteSatori
I agree with Dragon, and will add this 2 cp.

PrC's taken in Gestalt builds are no more powerful than they would be in a non Gestalt build, its that second class stacked on top of it that makes Gestalt a high power game option. Remember that gestalt is a variant used for games that WANT high power level, and/or need to make up for a lack of player characters in party. You have already bought into a power game, so adjust the CRs according to the given advice in UA, and play on.

There's something of a problem with that, though - while the game is powerful, it doesn't excuse the fact that certain PrCs can be made even more powerful than others of their kind, simply because the other gestalt class covers for their weaknesses. This is accecptable among most of the standard classes simply because the more I look at it, the more balence I see - the power rarely wavers out of the 125-150% more powerful mark. However, with some prestige classes (and the prime offenders seem to be those +1 caster level classes), the power level takes something of a jump, especially if you play around with designating 'sides' (which is somewhat weird, in all truth. I'm more inclined to take the character, and say that since he has all this, he's effectively taken a level in a new, more powerful class called: Fighter/Rogue, or whatever they've named it on the Gestalt names thread). UA acknowledges this, in some respects - saying that because it's possible to gain a prestige class earlier than normal, that prerequistes may be increased. (Yes, I know that I'm taking that out of context, here, but it fits - it still becomes easier for someone to be able to take levels in that prestige class because it's more likely that the PCs will survive, and that they'll be able to fight in more encoutners, more often.)

Anyways, to take a small break from that big, over-long paragraph, and create something of a context as to why I'm concened about this, I'm going to give my own views on PrCs, and what in some cases they are, and in some cases they should be.

First and formost, there's always the call that PrCs are supposed to be more powerful than base classes. This is true. However, only to an extent - a PrC should be as powerful as a character of the class that it's designed in mind for, at the level it's designed to be taken at. To put it another way, a PrC designed for Ranger 7 should be as powerful as if if, instead of Beign Ranger 7/PrC 1, you were Ranger 8, taking into account that sometimes the prerequisites call for a reduction in power, that is. Some PrCs violate this, being weaker than the class that they're designed for, or stronger (the +1 caster level classes tend to be the culprites here). Normally, this isn't much of a problem - those classes have drawbacks, usually in terms of basic statistics like hit dice, skill points, ect, that make them only as powerful as the class features granted. Unfortunetly, with gestalting, even this is taken away, and sometimes that menas that a base class/prestige class combo exceeds the standard power out put, by a wide margin...

Ah, so long-winded of me... Now, I'd better playtest this out, and see if the theory of mine makes me look like an idiot just grasping at straws, or if there is some amount of largish power creep in certain PrCs...

This character, PrC or no, is going to be more powerful than a standard character, and with a PrC is going to be about as much more powerful compared to a non PrC Gestalt class, as a standard class is going to be without access to PrC. Again, not unbalancing.

Well, as I said the the Gestalt Races??? thread, I have issues with certain things - in this case, I'm not entirly certain that all prestige classes are going to fit into the Gestalt set with ease - in fact, I'm fairly certain that there will be a fair number that will get really... weird (For example, well, a really exterme example, the True Necromancer. I know it's a staple of some of the builds to elevate the Mystic Theurge above the bounds of mortal men, but, come on - as soon as you get it, casting power is going to really, really sky-rocket). And that's the primary goal of this thread - to seek out and identify such offenders, and see if a few modifications can either make them usable again, or if they should be removed from consideration for a Gestalt game.
Ringrose
02-26-04, 10:20 AM I believe any combination that allows caster level above actual character level should be either denied or modified in Gestalt characters. Say if you were upping a Spellsword/Wizard you would not receive the extra spell levels from Spellsword because like class abilities do not stack (both gain spell levels)...taking Spellsword would be for flavor (and of course Bab, reduced arcane spell failure and channel spell of course)...with tinkering by a balance minded DM most of these issues can be avoided...(as a note Mystic Theurge should never be allowed...taking a few levels of Wizard and priest and then switching to say Fighter/Mystic Theurge would be way overpowered...)

Kurt
DragonWatcher
02-26-04, 05:34 PM Okay, I think I see the source of some of the confusion, and it's mainly based around the spellcasting PrC's that offer a +1 Spellcasting Level bonus.

Take a look at what those actually say, though. It gives a +1 caster level to a spellcasting class that you were before you became a (whatever). This assumes that you only have one class at a time. Also, your caster level is tied to the class level for which you are a caster.

Okay, example... a 10th level wizard, has a caster level of 10 (the maximum caster level a character can have is equal to the level of the class that grants him his casting ability (unless you're using the Caster Lever for Non-Magic using PC optional rule that's in the book... but I would hope that you get the point)). The caster level for a 6th level wizard/3rd level fighter is 6, etc.

Now, let's assume a 6th level wizard/3rd level fighter starts taking levels in a PrC that grants +1 effective spellcasting level every level... their caster level will exceed their wizard level, but will still NEVER exceed their character level.

Now... take a gestalt 6th level fighter/wizard, who starts substituting their fighter levels with the same PrC (I don't have books on hand, so pick a PrC). The PrC gives them +1 effective caster level/level, but so does their wizard level. I would maintain that caster lever can NEVER be higher than character level by any means (just like BAB can NEVER be higher than character level), and being a gestalt character doesn't allow you to break that rule.

I hope that this helps answer your question. There will likely be those that disagree with me on this (since there is room for interpretation), but it does say in the gestalt rules that a gestalt character will never have a higher BAB than his character level, so why would you allow a higher caster level?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoAT 02-25-04, 07:23 PM	I know that thereis a glut of Gestalt threads out there right now, but, I'd like to get some ideas about how to have it interact with prestige classes - specificaly, +1 caster level classes and classes that sit on the border of being two seprate classes, and basicly help out multiclass combos. First and foremost, I've got something of a problem with the +1 caster level classes - they don't 'feel' right anymore, when used with gestalt. I know that most of them are designed to be used with standard character classes, and that they pack alot of punch, under most circumstances. But, the thing is, with the new gestalt rules, suddenly any down side that they had vanishes, makeing them even more (proporionetly) powerful - what does an Archmage with d12 hitdice, full BAB and damage reduction worry about, anyways? So, I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas for re-vamping these classes, playing around with them, or maybe even expanding them to be 'Prestige Gestalts', takeing up both class levels...? As for borderline multiclasses... Well, which ones would you say are ban-able for the Gestalt concept? Which ones cross over too much, and become too much of a good thing?
DragonWatcher 02-25-04, 08:26 PM	I have been considering... considering mind you, adding some option for using Gestalt characters in my game. However, honestly, I think that I am going to refrain because I want to keep the characters that I have to a lower power level. While (unlike some others) I don't think that Gestalt play is inherently broken, I also do not that that you can use this option and have a reasonable expectation of keeping the characters power low. Like you said... what does an archmage with d12, hit dice, a full attack, multiple good saves, and a full spell load have to worry about? Uh... pretty much another gestalt archmage... ;) Anyhow, I really wouldn't worry about using prestige classes as printed. If they have an appeal to the players for their characters, and fit into your game world... then let the players try to take them. If they don't boost their characters as much as they normally would... no big loss. I'll bet that they're not hurting the characters either. As for creating 2-slot Gestalt Prestige Classes... this is interesting, but the problem that I have a hard time getting my mind around is what can you give the character that has everything? You get such a wide array of abilities just by running a gestalt character, that the idea of a gestalt PrC is a bit overwhelming to me. I'm sure that it can be done... and that flavor can be added, but I just have a hard time seeing flavor in that case not being overshadowed by sheer power.
strenoth 02-25-04, 09:26 PM	actually, a hyped-up multi-class PrC migth be appropriate. for example: a 2-slot version of the spell sword might have full casting progression and increased abilities, like faster ignoring of spell failure and increased chanelling
CompleteSatori 02-26-04, 01:11 AM	I agree with Dragon, and will add this 2 cp. PrC's taken in Gestalt builds are no more powerful than they would be in a non Gestalt build, its that second class stacked on top of it that makes Gestalt a high power game option. Remember that gestalt is a variant used for games that WANT high power level, and/or need to make up for a lack of player characters in party. You have already bought into a power game, so adjust the CRs according to the given advice in UA, and play on. This character, PrC or no, is going to be more powerful than a standard character, and with a PrC is going to be about as much more powerful compared to a non PrC Gestalt class, as a standard class is going to be without access to PrC. Again, not unbalancing.
JoAT 02-26-04, 02:44 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori I agree with Dragon, and will add this 2 cp. PrC's taken in Gestalt builds are no more powerful than they would be in a non Gestalt build, its that second class stacked on top of it that makes Gestalt a high power game option. Remember that gestalt is a variant used for games that WANT high power level, and/or need to make up for a lack of player characters in party. You have already bought into a power game, so adjust the CRs according to the given advice in UA, and play on. There's something of a problem with that, though - while the game is powerful, it doesn't excuse the fact that certain PrCs can be made even more powerful than others of their kind, simply because the other gestalt class covers for their weaknesses. This is accecptable among most of the standard classes simply because the more I look at it, the more balence I see - the power rarely wavers out of the 125-150% more powerful mark. However, with some prestige classes (and the prime offenders seem to be those +1 caster level classes), the power level takes something of a jump, especially if you play around with designating 'sides' (which is somewhat weird, in all truth. I'm more inclined to take the character, and say that since he has all this, he's effectively taken a level in a new, more powerful class called: Fighter/Rogue, or whatever they've named it on the Gestalt names thread). UA acknowledges this, in some respects - saying that because it's possible to gain a prestige class earlier than normal, that prerequistes may be increased. (Yes, I know that I'm taking that out of context, here, but it fits - it still becomes easier for someone to be able to take levels in that prestige class because it's more likely that the PCs will survive, and that they'll be able to fight in more encoutners, more often.) Anyways, to take a small break from that big, over-long paragraph, and create something of a context as to why I'm concened about this, I'm going to give my own views on PrCs, and what in some cases they are, and in some cases they should be. First and formost, there's always the call that PrCs are supposed to be more powerful than base classes. This is true. However, only to an extent - a PrC should be as powerful as a character of the class that it's designed in mind for, at the level it's designed to be taken at. To put it another way, a PrC designed for Ranger 7 should be as powerful as if if, instead of Beign Ranger 7/PrC 1, you were Ranger 8, taking into account that sometimes the prerequisites call for a reduction in power, that is. Some PrCs violate this, being weaker than the class that they're designed for, or stronger (the +1 caster level classes tend to be the culprites here). Normally, this isn't much of a problem - those classes have drawbacks, usually in terms of basic statistics like hit dice, skill points, ect, that make them only as powerful as the class features granted. Unfortunetly, with gestalting, even this is taken away, and sometimes that menas that a base class/prestige class combo exceeds the standard power out put, by a wide margin... Ah, so long-winded of me... Now, I'd better playtest this out, and see if the theory of mine makes me look like an idiot just grasping at straws, or if there is some amount of largish power creep in certain PrCs... This character, PrC or no, is going to be more powerful than a standard character, and with a PrC is going to be about as much more powerful compared to a non PrC Gestalt class, as a standard class is going to be without access to PrC. Again, not unbalancing. Well, as I said the the Gestalt Races??? thread, I have issues with certain things - in this case, I'm not entirly certain that all prestige classes are going to fit into the Gestalt set with ease - in fact, I'm fairly certain that there will be a fair number that will get really... weird (For example, well, a really exterme example, the True Necromancer. I know it's a staple of some of the builds to elevate the Mystic Theurge above the bounds of mortal men, but, come on - as soon as you get it, casting power is going to really, really sky-rocket). And that's the primary goal of this thread - to seek out and identify such offenders, and see if a few modifications can either make them usable again, or if they should be removed from consideration for a Gestalt game.
Ringrose 02-26-04, 10:20 AM	I believe any combination that allows caster level above actual character level should be either denied or modified in Gestalt characters. Say if you were upping a Spellsword/Wizard you would not receive the extra spell levels from Spellsword because like class abilities do not stack (both gain spell levels)...taking Spellsword would be for flavor (and of course Bab, reduced arcane spell failure and channel spell of course)...with tinkering by a balance minded DM most of these issues can be avoided...(as a note Mystic Theurge should never be allowed...taking a few levels of Wizard and priest and then switching to say Fighter/Mystic Theurge would be way overpowered...) Kurt
DragonWatcher 02-26-04, 05:34 PM	Okay, I think I see the source of some of the confusion, and it's mainly based around the spellcasting PrC's that offer a +1 Spellcasting Level bonus. Take a look at what those actually say, though. It gives a +1 caster level to a spellcasting class that you were before you became a (whatever). This assumes that you only have one class at a time. Also, your caster level is tied to the class level for which you are a caster. Okay, example... a 10th level wizard, has a caster level of 10 (the maximum caster level a character can have is equal to the level of the class that grants him his casting ability (unless you're using the Caster Lever for Non-Magic using PC optional rule that's in the book... but I would hope that you get the point)). The caster level for a 6th level wizard/3rd level fighter is 6, etc. Now, let's assume a 6th level wizard/3rd level fighter starts taking levels in a PrC that grants +1 effective spellcasting level every level... their caster level will exceed their wizard level, but will still NEVER exceed their character level. Now... take a gestalt 6th level fighter/wizard, who starts substituting their fighter levels with the same PrC (I don't have books on hand, so pick a PrC). The PrC gives them +1 effective caster level/level, but so does their wizard level. I would maintain that caster lever can NEVER be higher than character level by any means (just like BAB can NEVER be higher than character level), and being a gestalt character doesn't allow you to break that rule. I hope that this helps answer your question. There will likely be those that disagree with me on this (since there is room for interpretation), but it does say in the gestalt rules that a gestalt character will never have a higher BAB than his character level, so why would you allow a higher caster level?