Gestalt and Savage Species [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt and Savage Species [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DivineDragoonKain
06-27-06, 07:35 PM I'm going to run an online evil Gestalt Campaign soon, and one of the books I'm allowing is Savage Species. The campaign will start at level 3, but one player wants to play a Mind Flayer. I don't want to outright tell him no, but with the MF being ECL 15...

One thing is that I'm not sure if Gestalt stacks with LA and racial HD (though I've already semi-ruled that LA doesn't, while racial can), but I'm not sure on what I could do to give him a fair ECL 3 Mind Flayer for the campaign...

One idea I had was that he gets a small level adjustment for initial MF powers like Improved Grab/Extract and is required to take a minimum of one racial hit die, but has to take the other seven racial hit die as he levels to get the rest of his Mind Flayer powers. He'll be a little overpowered near the end, but that's a lot of what Gestalt's about, right?

If this really doesn't belong here, sorry. I'm new to these boards and to DMing in general, and just wanted some input on this... And an answer to the question about Gestalt levels and racial hit die / level adjustment.
Thraat
06-27-06, 07:57 PM I don't have my book at hand, but for the level adjustment part, I believe it is split between the two classes (race/class) progressions. I may be wrong on this and will be checking my UA book as soon as I can.

Also, if you have any of the FR books, they do tell how you can semi-balance a LA, such as the character in general takes a negative to his attacks, saves, and skill checks equal to the difference in his LA and the current average, effective party level.

though ask the player if he would change his choice since you are new to DMing and probably to gestalting as well, just don't let one bad experiance/choice ruin the campaign that you are planning.

remember as DM you can excercise rule 0 if need be, but use only when essential to the continuation of the campaign.
strenoth
06-27-06, 08:38 PM so he'd be a Mindflayer 3//ClassX 3

The races in SS are layed out as classes, just gestalt those racial-class levels with the normal class levels.
lostone
06-28-06, 09:52 AM It's not that simple. Look at the monstrous progressions, some levels they do not get hit dice. Those are the LA (level adjustment) levels. They are there to balance that creature out for PCs to use. WotC limits their hit dice because they feel the other abilities make up for the lower hit points. It is there attempt to balance the monster for use in a group of PCs that also has straight humans, etc.

Now if the mind flayer gains hit dice on those LA levels because they are gestalted, then you're ignoring LA completely. I don't have my book with me, and it isn't in the SRD, but IIRC the Mind Flayer is an ECL 15, 10 HD +5 LA. So at level 15 that gestalt mind flayer will have 15 HD and actually be closer to an ECL 20 character, but he'll be grouped with ECL 15 gestalt characters. That isn't fair to the rest of the group.

For my gestalt games, for simplicity sake, I either limit the group to ECL 0 races, or say they have X ECL or race, use it or lose it, and then have them ignore the ECL completely when figuring gestalt so they would still be classA x/classB x as far as gestalt is concerned.
Kirby179
06-28-06, 10:07 AM There are two schools of thought here. One school is that you treat Mind Flayer as a class just like any other. If it was balanced against a single-classed game, then it's just like taking a level in fighter, wizard, cleric, whatever. Most of the time, this is the case, in fact. Yes, you don't get a hit die every level. Well, most people would say that is a 'disadvantage' of getting the relatively higher powered abilities of a mind flayer. Would you not also say that a d4 hit die every level is a 'disadvantage' for the greater power a wizard has at higher levels?

What the character is losing on the 'level adjustment' levels is that they don't gain saves, BAB, or HD from their racial 'class' and have to take whatever class they have 'on the other side' for their best progression. They are effectively single-classed for that level, except for class features of Mind Flayer. To be honest, this is something easily handled if found to be more powerful than an average 'gestalt' character later in the game, by simply retroactively assigning the LA later, and letting the rest of the characters 'catch up'.

The other school of thought is that you shouldn't be able to take a class on the 'other side' of a level with no hit dice. Period. You will probably find that this makes SS characters weaker, completely, than any other gestalt character. Period.
runestar
06-28-06, 10:35 AM So for a lv15 gestalt game, you could be a gestalt mindflayer15/whatever 15 on the other side. :)

I think the racial progression tables for the more difficult races in CPSI actually help to clear up this confusion, even as they make normal use much more confusing. That is probably their sole saving grace. :P
Templar_Prime
06-29-06, 07:16 PM I have made characters in this situation, and I've found the best way to do it is to not treat the "levels" that do not gain HD as levels. Treat them as gained ECL. So if you're starting at level 3, then the mindflayer (looking at the SS progressions) would be a something/Mindflayer 2, with an ECL of +1. Looking at level 4 it also does not gain HD, so ECL goes to +2. At level 5 the character becomes a MF/something 3. And so on.

In the end, the character will be a MF/Something 8 with a +7 ECL.
Darth Sephiroth
07-01-06, 01:53 AM Another option would be to split the Mindflayer levels except for skills. Meaning until level 7 he's basically taking two levels of mindflayer and nothing else per level. At level eight he takes his last level of mindflayer and his first Class level from then on it is normal advancement for gestals.
Nelagend
07-01-06, 03:16 PM The way I would handle this is...

1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. levels of no HD for Illithid:
Character gains 1HD from the gestalted class, but no class abilities from the gestalted class, falling behind 1 level on spells and skills. Class gains the Illithid abilities for that level.

2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. levels of no HD for Illithid:
Character gains no HD from the gestalted class, but catches up 1 level of spells and skills in that class.

So, say you gestalt a 2 HD 4 level monster class into Rogue, where the monster gets HD at 1st and 3rd, for example.
1st level: 1 HD from either class, 1st level abilities for both.
2nd level: 1d6 HD from rogue class, 2nd level monster abilities.
3rd level: 1 HD from either class, 3rd level monster abilities and 2nd level rogue abilities.
4th level: No hit dice. Gain 4th level monster abilities and 3rd level rogue abilities.

You have now taken a ECL adjustment of 2 in one class, and changed it into a gestalt adjustment of -1 HD... you're a 3 HD creature with the abilities of a 2 HD 4th level monster and a 3 HD 3rd level rogue.

You might find this underpowered in practice and not want to skip rogue *abilities* at any level. In this case, just let them gain a level of abilities but no HD every other LA level.

This is a wierd enough case that I would handle characters on a case-by-case basis, as some combinations will be a lot more powerful than others.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DivineDragoonKain 06-27-06, 07:35 PM	I'm going to run an online evil Gestalt Campaign soon, and one of the books I'm allowing is Savage Species. The campaign will start at level 3, but one player wants to play a Mind Flayer. I don't want to outright tell him no, but with the MF being ECL 15... One thing is that I'm not sure if Gestalt stacks with LA and racial HD (though I've already semi-ruled that LA doesn't, while racial can), but I'm not sure on what I could do to give him a fair ECL 3 Mind Flayer for the campaign... One idea I had was that he gets a small level adjustment for initial MF powers like Improved Grab/Extract and is required to take a minimum of one racial hit die, but has to take the other seven racial hit die as he levels to get the rest of his Mind Flayer powers. He'll be a little overpowered near the end, but that's a lot of what Gestalt's about, right? If this really doesn't belong here, sorry. I'm new to these boards and to DMing in general, and just wanted some input on this... And an answer to the question about Gestalt levels and racial hit die / level adjustment.
Thraat 06-27-06, 07:57 PM	I don't have my book at hand, but for the level adjustment part, I believe it is split between the two classes (race/class) progressions. I may be wrong on this and will be checking my UA book as soon as I can. Also, if you have any of the FR books, they do tell how you can semi-balance a LA, such as the character in general takes a negative to his attacks, saves, and skill checks equal to the difference in his LA and the current average, effective party level. though ask the player if he would change his choice since you are new to DMing and probably to gestalting as well, just don't let one bad experiance/choice ruin the campaign that you are planning. remember as DM you can excercise rule 0 if need be, but use only when essential to the continuation of the campaign.
strenoth 06-27-06, 08:38 PM	so he'd be a Mindflayer 3//ClassX 3 The races in SS are layed out as classes, just gestalt those racial-class levels with the normal class levels.
lostone 06-28-06, 09:52 AM	It's not that simple. Look at the monstrous progressions, some levels they do not get hit dice. Those are the LA (level adjustment) levels. They are there to balance that creature out for PCs to use. WotC limits their hit dice because they feel the other abilities make up for the lower hit points. It is there attempt to balance the monster for use in a group of PCs that also has straight humans, etc. Now if the mind flayer gains hit dice on those LA levels because they are gestalted, then you're ignoring LA completely. I don't have my book with me, and it isn't in the SRD, but IIRC the Mind Flayer is an ECL 15, 10 HD +5 LA. So at level 15 that gestalt mind flayer will have 15 HD and actually be closer to an ECL 20 character, but he'll be grouped with ECL 15 gestalt characters. That isn't fair to the rest of the group. For my gestalt games, for simplicity sake, I either limit the group to ECL 0 races, or say they have X ECL or race, use it or lose it, and then have them ignore the ECL completely when figuring gestalt so they would still be classA x/classB x as far as gestalt is concerned.
Kirby179 06-28-06, 10:07 AM	There are two schools of thought here. One school is that you treat Mind Flayer as a class just like any other. If it was balanced against a single-classed game, then it's just like taking a level in fighter, wizard, cleric, whatever. Most of the time, this is the case, in fact. Yes, you don't get a hit die every level. Well, most people would say that is a 'disadvantage' of getting the relatively higher powered abilities of a mind flayer. Would you not also say that a d4 hit die every level is a 'disadvantage' for the greater power a wizard has at higher levels? What the character is losing on the 'level adjustment' levels is that they don't gain saves, BAB, or HD from their racial 'class' and have to take whatever class they have 'on the other side' for their best progression. They are effectively single-classed for that level, except for class features of Mind Flayer. To be honest, this is something easily handled if found to be more powerful than an average 'gestalt' character later in the game, by simply retroactively assigning the LA later, and letting the rest of the characters 'catch up'. The other school of thought is that you shouldn't be able to take a class on the 'other side' of a level with no hit dice. Period. You will probably find that this makes SS characters weaker, completely, than any other gestalt character. Period.
runestar 06-28-06, 10:35 AM	So for a lv15 gestalt game, you could be a gestalt mindflayer15/whatever 15 on the other side. :) I think the racial progression tables for the more difficult races in CPSI actually help to clear up this confusion, even as they make normal use much more confusing. That is probably their sole saving grace. :P
Templar_Prime 06-29-06, 07:16 PM	I have made characters in this situation, and I've found the best way to do it is to not treat the "levels" that do not gain HD as levels. Treat them as gained ECL. So if you're starting at level 3, then the mindflayer (looking at the SS progressions) would be a something/Mindflayer 2, with an ECL of +1. Looking at level 4 it also does not gain HD, so ECL goes to +2. At level 5 the character becomes a MF/something 3. And so on. In the end, the character will be a MF/Something 8 with a +7 ECL.
Darth Sephiroth 07-01-06, 01:53 AM	Another option would be to split the Mindflayer levels except for skills. Meaning until level 7 he's basically taking two levels of mindflayer and nothing else per level. At level eight he takes his last level of mindflayer and his first Class level from then on it is normal advancement for gestals.
Nelagend 07-01-06, 03:16 PM	The way I would handle this is... 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. levels of no HD for Illithid: Character gains 1HD from the gestalted class, but no class abilities from the gestalted class, falling behind 1 level on spells and skills. Class gains the Illithid abilities for that level. 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. levels of no HD for Illithid: Character gains no HD from the gestalted class, but catches up 1 level of spells and skills in that class. So, say you gestalt a 2 HD 4 level monster class into Rogue, where the monster gets HD at 1st and 3rd, for example. 1st level: 1 HD from either class, 1st level abilities for both. 2nd level: 1d6 HD from rogue class, 2nd level monster abilities. 3rd level: 1 HD from either class, 3rd level monster abilities and 2nd level rogue abilities. 4th level: No hit dice. Gain 4th level monster abilities and 3rd level rogue abilities. You have now taken a ECL adjustment of 2 in one class, and changed it into a gestalt adjustment of -1 HD... you're a 3 HD creature with the abilities of a 2 HD 4th level monster and a 3 HD 3rd level rogue. You might find this underpowered in practice and not want to skip rogue abilities at any level. In this case, just let them gain a level of abilities but no HD every other LA level. This is a wierd enough case that I would handle characters on a case-by-case basis, as some combinations will be a lot more powerful than others.