Gestalt Campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Campaign? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zorcon
09-25-06, 09:15 PM I’m starting our second 3/3.5e campaign (Eberron). I was considering having my players build 2 characters (a prime & alt) to allow for more experimentation with character concepts and more variety in general. I chose not to go this rout, but am now considering having the players run gestalt characters.

1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons?

2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters?

3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity?
WhiteRaven810
09-25-06, 09:47 PM 1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons?

2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters?

3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity?

I believe SRD states that a gesalt character is just as powerful as regular PC because of the amount of options/turns they are given in around.

Their logic is that a Cleric/Wizard 3, while having a wide array of spells, can still only take as many options as a Cleric 3.

My logic is is that said Cleric/Wizard 3 is going to be able to cast a number of spells greater then said Cleric 3. And we all know the trick to nerfing spellcaster's is to throw a greater number of encounters at them per day.

I'd say as long as you have three or less characters gesalt PC's are just fine. Other wise take a big step away from it.
Otaking
09-26-06, 11:54 AM I'm running a gestault game right now with six, actually, and it hasn't proven to be a huge issue yet, though we're not far in. Yea, they have a lot of options, especially since I let them build using pretty much any classes they like, but they still only have first-level HP, BAB, etc. As stated elsewhere, no gestault character can get better than a +1 BAB progression, 3rd level spells before level 5, etc., and they still only get one standard action a round.

From what I've seen, the general consensus seems to be that CRs should be bumped up +1 or +2, depending on the group and party size, and can face more encounters per day than otherwise - so your 4 6th level characters can be compared to a 7th level party, though they'll probably have only a little trouble with CR 8 encounters if they have strong builds and good teamwork. Treating them as a 9th level party will probably get them all horribly killed.

If you want to minimize the amount of balancing you have to do manually, though, you may want to eye certain class combinations very carefully. Monk and Druid are both very strong classes in gestault, for example, as are a lot of the non-core base classes. Also, be pretty restrictive with PrCs, as that can get out of hand very easily.
kdyal
09-26-06, 02:07 PM I have found that LA +1 is too weak for gestalt, and that it actually gets more useful as the levels go up...

Try LA +2 instead.
sren
09-26-06, 07:51 PM I'm running a gestalt game now, and while the characters are definately mroe powerful, I don't see it being worth a level adjustment. A gestalt character shouldn't be able to take any single action that a non-gestalt character can take. Gestalts don't hit more often than a fighter, don't take more swings than a monk, don't deal more damage than a rogue, don't cast more than one spell per round, don't deal more damage with spells or can't overcome spell resistance better than a wizard.

What they do have is options. They more often than not can choose to hit as often as a fighter in one round, then cast a spell as powerful as an equal level wizard the next. They also tend to have more hit points and better saves than equal level characters.

They also have weaknesses, but maybe these drawbacks are more player oriented than character oriented:
1) They still have only 7 base feats, plus bonus feats if they choose a class that offers bonus feats. So players have to choose between getting the normal feats they would choose for one of their classes, or try to choose feats to support both classes. This is less of a problem with some combinations than others, but its still rare to pick a gestalt combination allows you to pick feats that are optimum for each class (I can't imagine a fighter//ranger or sorcerer//wizard being much fun, but those are examples of when feat selection wouldn't be much of a drawback).

2) Skill selection has the same drawbacks as feat selection, especially if you throw spellcasters into the mix. Every spellcaster needs concentration, and most feel compelled to buy spellcraft and the appropriate knowledge skill, none of which are on the list for non-spellcasters. So, you're left with the same choice of trying to split skill points between two party roles, or choosing to focus on one party role. So the larger class skill list and possibility of more skill points doesn't unbalance things at all.

3) Class restrictions is the last drawback, and like the others, can be avoided if the character chooses a particularly good match for his gestalt combination, but the armor limits on arcane spellcasters and monks doesn't go away, nor do any alignment restrictions, so characters still have to deal with those.

4) Gear selection suffers similar drawbacks to skills and feats, only so much gold to go around, so choose which class to focus your gear on (keeping class restrictions in mind).

To balance power levels out with opponents, don't use higher CR monsters, instead use more monsters. Unearthed Arcana suggests lowering the CR by one or two points, but I've found that you can easily overpower the characters that way when dealing with one-creature-encounters (If a first level fighter can't hit it, then a gestalt fighter//somethign-else isn't going to do any better, and the party is going to die). Use their regular level to guide the CR of individual creatures in encounters, and consider a "balanced" encounter to have an encounter level of one or two points higher than the party's level. For XP, if you want what the book oconsideres fair advancement, then award XP as if the monsters were lower CR, ubt I've founf this can be frusteratign for both the GM and the players, as it takes way mroe encounters to level up, which means either the GM has to plan mroe encounters between major plot points, or just count on them rarely leveling up. Its much easier to just hand out XP s normal, unless you prefere a slower advancement.
rydi123
09-27-06, 02:42 AM I’m starting our second 3/3.5e campaign (Eberron). I was considering having my players build 2 characters (a prime & alt) to allow for more experimentation with character concepts and more variety in general. I chose not to go this rout, but am now considering having the players run gestalt characters.

1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons?

2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters?

3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity?

1)it depends on the way you run the gestalt. you can get extremely powerful characters if you allow alot of multiclassing to go on. if you restrict the way the gestalting works, like maybe making the characters pick one side of thier progression to take all the way up it tends to be much more tame.

2)actually, the difference is less noticeable at lower levels. a good hit from an orc will still kill you then. at higher lvls however, you have alot of varied and synergistic abilities. i would say +1 at low levels (1-4), +2 at mid levels (5-12), and +3 at higher lvls (13+).

3)YES. the experienced player will always have an advantage, and the more variable you add, the more the disparity will increase. but again, it depends on how you let them gestalt. some methods allow more room for abuse than others.
alchemyprime
09-28-06, 02:15 PM All I can say is, for CR, it's ECL x1.3. So 3rd level gestalts can do 4, 6th can do 8th, etc.

It's a decent formula I can up with to make it more balanced.

But, just to suggest it, half all LA of creatures, but DO NOT ALLOW RACIAL HIT DICE! It over complicates things!

Of course, our fighter/psion 5, fighter/electrokineticist 8 was our heavy hitter. Only our wizard/psion 5, wizard/slayer 4, psion/red wizard 4 could hold a candle to him. Fire versus electricity. An epic battle indeed!

Any way, any race without racial HD will do fine in a gestalt campaign, and an equal leveled gestalt badguy is powerful enough to challenge you pcs.

That's all I can offer.
scienceman47
09-28-06, 02:58 PM Watch psionics.

Psionics are not broken, but they mesh painfully well with gestalt;letting two full caster classes hinge off one stat is wrong on so many levels. I'd be wary of the druid too. Enforce some changes and limitations, remove wildshape entirely and replace with PH2 version for a start. Turning into a martial arts bear monk/druid combo is forbidden.
Zorcon
09-29-06, 03:36 PM Thanks all for the input...very helpful. My group got bigger than expected (8 players) and only half turned out to be interested anyway. So I'm shelving the idea for the time being.

I can see now that at low levels there is very little dif between gest and non-gest, but with ability/feature synergy at higher levels...look out!
Prime32
10-01-06, 05:41 PM letting two full caster classes hinge off one stat is wrong on so many levels.

*cough* sorcerer/shugenja *cough*
JasonOrlandoHawk
10-04-06, 04:36 PM I ran a two year gestalt game...

HEADACHES!!!!!

First, let me say that gestalt games can be quite rewarding, and despite the number of power combos your players will create, it can be very, very fun.

Here's my experience:

1) Treat them as if they were characters of their level for almost everything. Don't worry about their ECL or LA or RHD or whatever... Trust me. They fight just about as well as characters of their level. If you absolutely must, slap on a LA+1 after Level 12, but even then, it's seems like over kill to me.

2) Do not treat them as characters of their level for the purpose of creating the number of encounters or the number of creatures in an encounter. A gestalt party will be able to adventure about 1.25 to 1.75 times longer than a typical party, depending on their level.

3) Award the standard amount of Experience for actual challenging mosters, but cut treasure awards to about 75% normal. You might consider outlawing certain items, particularly Bracers of Armor, if there are a lot of Wizards, Sorcerors, or Monks. Just trust me there. Also, forget scrolls in terms of treasure. Your players will never use them. I saw 4 scrolls used in my two year game, and all of them were ressurection scrolls. Wands will suffer a similar fate, but may see some use.

4) Learn to insert hordes of weak monsters that aren't worth any experience, but serve as a convienent way to burn through about 25% of the caster's spell slots/day. It helps add to the epic feel past Level 10 (and, yes, the epic feel will hit about Level 10). Also, "boss fights" should include about twice as many minions at higher levels.

5) Don't be afraid to use a liberal amount of Save or Die spells after Level 8. Most them will miss anyways. In fact, don't be afraid to use liberal amounts of everything: traps, monsters, environmental hazards, anti-magic zones, etc... Your characters will cut through them all with time, especially at higher levels.

6) A quick suggestion from me: All gestalt games that I run are themed. My first was dubbed the "Cleric's Game," and in it, one half of the gestalt levels had to be in a Divine Class, be it Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, or the appropriate Prestige Class, and the other half of their gestalt levels were open to whatever they desired. Thus, while I had a group with unrivaled healing potential, they were limited by their churches, spiritual oaths, armor restrictions, etc... which had a habit of popping up in game a lot. Use themes to program an exploitable weakness into the group, and then use your evil GM powers to disguise as a group "Power Base."

So, in summary:

At low levels, there is so little difference, it doesn't matter. As levels progress, don't turn up the CR, but do turn up the # of challenges. Keep experience the same, but tone treasure down a notch. Pretend that scrolls and wands don't exist, and nerf any items that may drive power levels to high. Finally, use a theme to control the strengths and weaknesses of the group so that you, as a GM, still can use your evil laugh powers.
rydi123
10-04-06, 07:16 PM 6) A quick suggestion from me: All gestalt games that I run are themed. My first was dubbed the "Cleric's Game," and in it, one half of the gestalt levels had to be in a Divine Class, be it Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, or the appropriate Prestige Class, and the other half of their gestalt levels were open to whatever they desired. Thus, while I had a group with unrivaled healing potential, they were limited by their churches, spiritual oaths, armor restrictions, etc... which had a habit of popping up in game a lot. Use themes to program an exploitable weakness into the group, and then use your evil GM powers to disguise as a group "Power Base."

So, in summary:

At low levels, there is so little difference, it doesn't matter. As levels progress, don't turn up the CR, but do turn up the # of challenges. Keep experience the same, but tone treasure down a notch. Pretend that scrolls and wands don't exist, and nerf any items that may drive power levels to high. Finally, use a theme to control the strengths and weaknesses of the group so that you, as a GM, still can use your evil laugh powers.

those are actually really good tips. i like, especially the theme idea. though i still have to say that an ecl adjust or an xp adjust (x1.5) is called for, but maybe with the theme game it might not be as bad.
Caelestion
10-04-06, 07:58 PM Don't forget that if your players are gestalt, it pays for your NPC villains to be gestalt as well. In such a situation, generic LAs are not necessary.
(Incidentally, racial HD isn't a nightmare in my experience. Simply treat it as one half of that level's classes - the PC Illthid/Wizard 8 for instance.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zorcon 09-25-06, 09:15 PM	I’m starting our second 3/3.5e campaign (Eberron). I was considering having my players build 2 characters (a prime & alt) to allow for more experimentation with character concepts and more variety in general. I chose not to go this rout, but am now considering having the players run gestalt characters. 1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons? 2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters? 3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity?
WhiteRaven810 09-25-06, 09:47 PM	1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons? 2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters? 3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity? I believe SRD states that a gesalt character is just as powerful as regular PC because of the amount of options/turns they are given in around. Their logic is that a Cleric/Wizard 3, while having a wide array of spells, can still only take as many options as a Cleric 3. My logic is is that said Cleric/Wizard 3 is going to be able to cast a number of spells greater then said Cleric 3. And we all know the trick to nerfing spellcaster's is to throw a greater number of encounters at them per day. I'd say as long as you have three or less characters gesalt PC's are just fine. Other wise take a big step away from it.
Otaking 09-26-06, 11:54 AM	I'm running a gestault game right now with six, actually, and it hasn't proven to be a huge issue yet, though we're not far in. Yea, they have a lot of options, especially since I let them build using pretty much any classes they like, but they still only have first-level HP, BAB, etc. As stated elsewhere, no gestault character can get better than a +1 BAB progression, 3rd level spells before level 5, etc., and they still only get one standard action a round. From what I've seen, the general consensus seems to be that CRs should be bumped up +1 or +2, depending on the group and party size, and can face more encounters per day than otherwise - so your 4 6th level characters can be compared to a 7th level party, though they'll probably have only a little trouble with CR 8 encounters if they have strong builds and good teamwork. Treating them as a 9th level party will probably get them all horribly killed. If you want to minimize the amount of balancing you have to do manually, though, you may want to eye certain class combinations very carefully. Monk and Druid are both very strong classes in gestault, for example, as are a lot of the non-core base classes. Also, be pretty restrictive with PrCs, as that can get out of hand very easily.
kdyal 09-26-06, 02:07 PM	I have found that LA +1 is too weak for gestalt, and that it actually gets more useful as the levels go up... Try LA +2 instead.
sren 09-26-06, 07:51 PM	I'm running a gestalt game now, and while the characters are definately mroe powerful, I don't see it being worth a level adjustment. A gestalt character shouldn't be able to take any single action that a non-gestalt character can take. Gestalts don't hit more often than a fighter, don't take more swings than a monk, don't deal more damage than a rogue, don't cast more than one spell per round, don't deal more damage with spells or can't overcome spell resistance better than a wizard. What they do have is options. They more often than not can choose to hit as often as a fighter in one round, then cast a spell as powerful as an equal level wizard the next. They also tend to have more hit points and better saves than equal level characters. They also have weaknesses, but maybe these drawbacks are more player oriented than character oriented: 1) They still have only 7 base feats, plus bonus feats if they choose a class that offers bonus feats. So players have to choose between getting the normal feats they would choose for one of their classes, or try to choose feats to support both classes. This is less of a problem with some combinations than others, but its still rare to pick a gestalt combination allows you to pick feats that are optimum for each class (I can't imagine a fighter//ranger or sorcerer//wizard being much fun, but those are examples of when feat selection wouldn't be much of a drawback). 2) Skill selection has the same drawbacks as feat selection, especially if you throw spellcasters into the mix. Every spellcaster needs concentration, and most feel compelled to buy spellcraft and the appropriate knowledge skill, none of which are on the list for non-spellcasters. So, you're left with the same choice of trying to split skill points between two party roles, or choosing to focus on one party role. So the larger class skill list and possibility of more skill points doesn't unbalance things at all. 3) Class restrictions is the last drawback, and like the others, can be avoided if the character chooses a particularly good match for his gestalt combination, but the armor limits on arcane spellcasters and monks doesn't go away, nor do any alignment restrictions, so characters still have to deal with those. 4) Gear selection suffers similar drawbacks to skills and feats, only so much gold to go around, so choose which class to focus your gear on (keeping class restrictions in mind). To balance power levels out with opponents, don't use higher CR monsters, instead use more monsters. Unearthed Arcana suggests lowering the CR by one or two points, but I've found that you can easily overpower the characters that way when dealing with one-creature-encounters (If a first level fighter can't hit it, then a gestalt fighter//somethign-else isn't going to do any better, and the party is going to die). Use their regular level to guide the CR of individual creatures in encounters, and consider a "balanced" encounter to have an encounter level of one or two points higher than the party's level. For XP, if you want what the book oconsideres fair advancement, then award XP as if the monsters were lower CR, ubt I've founf this can be frusteratign for both the GM and the players, as it takes way mroe encounters to level up, which means either the GM has to plan mroe encounters between major plot points, or just count on them rarely leveling up. Its much easier to just hand out XP s normal, unless you prefere a slower advancement.
rydi123 09-27-06, 02:42 AM	I’m starting our second 3/3.5e campaign (Eberron). I was considering having my players build 2 characters (a prime & alt) to allow for more experimentation with character concepts and more variety in general. I chose not to go this rout, but am now considering having the players run gestalt characters. 1) Can anyone share their experience with a gestalt campaign? Is it just ridiculous, like giving 1st level characters +5 weapons? 2) How much more powerful is a gestalt character? I'm guessing approximately 1-2 times at low levels and 1.25-1.5 at higher levels. If I am running a group of 4 6th level gestalt characters, would they be equivalent to 4 9th level standard characters? 3) In a regular campaign, there is a noticeable difference between the power levels of characters run by players who know how to "tune" their character and those that don't. Would you say that gestalt characters increase or decrease this disparity? 1)it depends on the way you run the gestalt. you can get extremely powerful characters if you allow alot of multiclassing to go on. if you restrict the way the gestalting works, like maybe making the characters pick one side of thier progression to take all the way up it tends to be much more tame. 2)actually, the difference is less noticeable at lower levels. a good hit from an orc will still kill you then. at higher lvls however, you have alot of varied and synergistic abilities. i would say +1 at low levels (1-4), +2 at mid levels (5-12), and +3 at higher lvls (13+). 3)YES. the experienced player will always have an advantage, and the more variable you add, the more the disparity will increase. but again, it depends on how you let them gestalt. some methods allow more room for abuse than others.
alchemyprime 09-28-06, 02:15 PM	All I can say is, for CR, it's ECL x1.3. So 3rd level gestalts can do 4, 6th can do 8th, etc. It's a decent formula I can up with to make it more balanced. But, just to suggest it, half all LA of creatures, but DO NOT ALLOW RACIAL HIT DICE! It over complicates things! Of course, our fighter/psion 5, fighter/electrokineticist 8 was our heavy hitter. Only our wizard/psion 5, wizard/slayer 4, psion/red wizard 4 could hold a candle to him. Fire versus electricity. An epic battle indeed! Any way, any race without racial HD will do fine in a gestalt campaign, and an equal leveled gestalt badguy is powerful enough to challenge you pcs. That's all I can offer.
scienceman47 09-28-06, 02:58 PM	Watch psionics. Psionics are not broken, but they mesh painfully well with gestalt;letting two full caster classes hinge off one stat is wrong on so many levels. I'd be wary of the druid too. Enforce some changes and limitations, remove wildshape entirely and replace with PH2 version for a start. Turning into a martial arts bear monk/druid combo is forbidden.
Zorcon 09-29-06, 03:36 PM	Thanks all for the input...very helpful. My group got bigger than expected (8 players) and only half turned out to be interested anyway. So I'm shelving the idea for the time being. I can see now that at low levels there is very little dif between gest and non-gest, but with ability/feature synergy at higher levels...look out!
Prime32 10-01-06, 05:41 PM	letting two full caster classes hinge off one stat is wrong on so many levels. cough sorcerer/shugenja cough
JasonOrlandoHawk 10-04-06, 04:36 PM	I ran a two year gestalt game... HEADACHES!!!!! First, let me say that gestalt games can be quite rewarding, and despite the number of power combos your players will create, it can be very, very fun. Here's my experience: 1) Treat them as if they were characters of their level for almost everything. Don't worry about their ECL or LA or RHD or whatever... Trust me. They fight just about as well as characters of their level. If you absolutely must, slap on a LA+1 after Level 12, but even then, it's seems like over kill to me. 2) Do not treat them as characters of their level for the purpose of creating the number of encounters or the number of creatures in an encounter. A gestalt party will be able to adventure about 1.25 to 1.75 times longer than a typical party, depending on their level. 3) Award the standard amount of Experience for actual challenging mosters, but cut treasure awards to about 75% normal. You might consider outlawing certain items, particularly Bracers of Armor, if there are a lot of Wizards, Sorcerors, or Monks. Just trust me there. Also, forget scrolls in terms of treasure. Your players will never use them. I saw 4 scrolls used in my two year game, and all of them were ressurection scrolls. Wands will suffer a similar fate, but may see some use. 4) Learn to insert hordes of weak monsters that aren't worth any experience, but serve as a convienent way to burn through about 25% of the caster's spell slots/day. It helps add to the epic feel past Level 10 (and, yes, the epic feel will hit about Level 10). Also, "boss fights" should include about twice as many minions at higher levels. 5) Don't be afraid to use a liberal amount of Save or Die spells after Level 8. Most them will miss anyways. In fact, don't be afraid to use liberal amounts of everything: traps, monsters, environmental hazards, anti-magic zones, etc... Your characters will cut through them all with time, especially at higher levels. 6) A quick suggestion from me: All gestalt games that I run are themed. My first was dubbed the "Cleric's Game," and in it, one half of the gestalt levels had to be in a Divine Class, be it Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, or the appropriate Prestige Class, and the other half of their gestalt levels were open to whatever they desired. Thus, while I had a group with unrivaled healing potential, they were limited by their churches, spiritual oaths, armor restrictions, etc... which had a habit of popping up in game a lot. Use themes to program an exploitable weakness into the group, and then use your evil GM powers to disguise as a group "Power Base." So, in summary: At low levels, there is so little difference, it doesn't matter. As levels progress, don't turn up the CR, but do turn up the # of challenges. Keep experience the same, but tone treasure down a notch. Pretend that scrolls and wands don't exist, and nerf any items that may drive power levels to high. Finally, use a theme to control the strengths and weaknesses of the group so that you, as a GM, still can use your evil laugh powers.
rydi123 10-04-06, 07:16 PM	6) A quick suggestion from me: All gestalt games that I run are themed. My first was dubbed the "Cleric's Game," and in it, one half of the gestalt levels had to be in a Divine Class, be it Cleric, Druid, Monk, Paladin, or the appropriate Prestige Class, and the other half of their gestalt levels were open to whatever they desired. Thus, while I had a group with unrivaled healing potential, they were limited by their churches, spiritual oaths, armor restrictions, etc... which had a habit of popping up in game a lot. Use themes to program an exploitable weakness into the group, and then use your evil GM powers to disguise as a group "Power Base." So, in summary: At low levels, there is so little difference, it doesn't matter. As levels progress, don't turn up the CR, but do turn up the # of challenges. Keep experience the same, but tone treasure down a notch. Pretend that scrolls and wands don't exist, and nerf any items that may drive power levels to high. Finally, use a theme to control the strengths and weaknesses of the group so that you, as a GM, still can use your evil laugh powers. those are actually really good tips. i like, especially the theme idea. though i still have to say that an ecl adjust or an xp adjust (x1.5) is called for, but maybe with the theme game it might not be as bad.
Caelestion 10-04-06, 07:58 PM	Don't forget that if your players are gestalt, it pays for your NPC villains to be gestalt as well. In such a situation, generic LAs are not necessary. (Incidentally, racial HD isn't a nightmare in my experience. Simply treat it as one half of that level's classes - the PC Illthid/Wizard 8 for instance.)