Gestalt Casting Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Casting Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tralfas
12-20-05, 02:13 PM Just curious what other GMs would do with this Gestalt scenario.

A PC has leveled as a Sorceror/Rogue for 10 levels. At level 11 he chooses a level of Sorceror and also a level of a prestige class that raises his arcane caster level.

Would he then be a level 12 Sorceror for his spells (ie, 11 from his level 11 sorceror, and 1 from his prestige class)? While one extra level here is not unbalancing, later on when he is a 15 sorceror/10 rogue/5 'prestige class' he would be casting as a 20th level sorceror (while only lvl 15). Maybe you don't allow him spells higher in level than his level 15 sorceror level provides (ie, lvl 15 sorcerors only can cast up to lvl 7 spells), but he would get more lower level spells as a 20th level sorceror would (ie, would have the spells per day, and the pool of spells available to cast of a 20th lvl sorceror).

Would you not allow it and cap his casting level at his highest arcane casting level (ie, the level of prestige would not add to his sorceror spell level effectively making him choose Rogue and the prestige class that adds casting levels instead if he wants to be a 12th lvl caster)?
SilentOne
12-20-05, 02:25 PM I had this puzzler too, but it was pointed out by someone that caster levels are abilities of the class, and thus, never stack. So it's impossible to have a CL higher than your character level just by taking prestige classes (unless there's some weird one that gives things like that, but normal ones don't)
strenoth
12-20-05, 02:26 PM actually, you just showed that you didn't read the gestalt section carefully enough.

It specifically states in the rules that if the gestalted classes provide progression in the same class ability (sneak attack, spell casting) you only get it once at any given level

You coudl do sorcerer/wizard how ever, as an example, and get one level of sorcerer, and one level of wizard spell casting, as they are seperate progression. Or, to slightly optimise the scenario you layed out for spellcasting:

sorcerer/rogue 9
sorcerer/wizard 1
Sorcerer/PrC 1 (use increase caster level and apply it to wizard)

at 11th level, you have the abilities of an 11th level sorcerer, 9th levle rogue, 2 levels of wizard casting, and yoru PrC abilities.

The otehr optimization is for yoru player toi swap out sorcerer for the PrC, and keep advancing in rogue, which is probably more optimised really.
Millennium
12-20-05, 04:58 PM Remember folks: level-for-level, nothing stacks in gestalt.
PC has leveled as a Sorceror/Rogue for 10 levels. At level 11 he chooses a level of Sorceror and also a level of a prestige class that raises his arcane caster level.

Would he then be a level 12 Sorceror for his spells (ie, 11 from his level 11 sorceror, and 1 from his prestige class)?
Not the way he's got it set up, no. However, If he took another level of Sorcerer/Rogue and then a level of Rogue/PrC, then he'd have a caster level of 12. But at that point, he'd also have a character level of 12, so things stay balanced.

Let's look at this from a slightly different tactic, by expressing spellcasting as a set of feats:

----------
Spellcasting
Prerequisite: A score of 10 or higher in the ability which drives the spellcasting in the chosen class.
Effect: Choose one spellcasting class. You can now cast spells as a first-level member of that class.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Every time you take this feat, it applies to a different class.

Improved Spellcasting
Prerequisite: Spellcasting
Effect: Choose one class for which you have the Spellcasting feat. Your spellcasting abilities in the chosen class increase by one level.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, you must choose which class to apply it to. The effects of this feat stack with other instances of the feat taken for the same class, but not for other classes.
----------
Now, consider each spellcasting class to get Spellcasting[class] at first level as a bonus feat. For example, at first level, wizards get Spellcasting[wizard]. At higher levels, the spellcasting classes get Improved Spellcasting[class] as a bonus feat, usually at every level. So a second-level wizard gets Improved Spellcasting[wizard] as a bonus feat, and he gets it again at every level thereafter.

Now, let's look at the PrCs. Whenever a PC gets "+1 to level of existing spellcasting class", consider this to be getting Improved Spellcasting[any] as a bonus feat: the character may apply it to any class for which he already has Spellcasting (though most PrCs require you to choose an arcane class or a divine class).

OK; that took a lot of setup, but now we get to my point. Nothing stacks in Gestalt, which is why someone can't gestalt as a rogue/rogue and get twice the Sneak Attack damage. Apply this to your character's situation. As a sorcerer, he gets Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] when he levels up. As this PrC, he gets Improved Spellcasting[any] when he levels. He could apply this to any spellcasting he wants, but because he already got Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] from his sorcerer level, if he tries to take Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] from the PrC level, they won't stack. One of the two feats would be wasted. If the character had a level of bard from way back when, then he could take Improved Spellcasting[bard] with his PrC bonus feat, and this would be fine. Then he'd have gotten Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] and Improved Spellcasting[bard] at that level. In no case is his caster level higher than his character level.

I hope this makes some sense. Sometimes when dealing with things like this, I find that it helps to try and express class abilities as feats or chains of feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tralfas 12-20-05, 02:13 PM	Just curious what other GMs would do with this Gestalt scenario. A PC has leveled as a Sorceror/Rogue for 10 levels. At level 11 he chooses a level of Sorceror and also a level of a prestige class that raises his arcane caster level. Would he then be a level 12 Sorceror for his spells (ie, 11 from his level 11 sorceror, and 1 from his prestige class)? While one extra level here is not unbalancing, later on when he is a 15 sorceror/10 rogue/5 'prestige class' he would be casting as a 20th level sorceror (while only lvl 15). Maybe you don't allow him spells higher in level than his level 15 sorceror level provides (ie, lvl 15 sorcerors only can cast up to lvl 7 spells), but he would get more lower level spells as a 20th level sorceror would (ie, would have the spells per day, and the pool of spells available to cast of a 20th lvl sorceror). Would you not allow it and cap his casting level at his highest arcane casting level (ie, the level of prestige would not add to his sorceror spell level effectively making him choose Rogue and the prestige class that adds casting levels instead if he wants to be a 12th lvl caster)?
SilentOne 12-20-05, 02:25 PM	I had this puzzler too, but it was pointed out by someone that caster levels are abilities of the class, and thus, never stack. So it's impossible to have a CL higher than your character level just by taking prestige classes (unless there's some weird one that gives things like that, but normal ones don't)
strenoth 12-20-05, 02:26 PM	actually, you just showed that you didn't read the gestalt section carefully enough. It specifically states in the rules that if the gestalted classes provide progression in the same class ability (sneak attack, spell casting) you only get it once at any given level You coudl do sorcerer/wizard how ever, as an example, and get one level of sorcerer, and one level of wizard spell casting, as they are seperate progression. Or, to slightly optimise the scenario you layed out for spellcasting: sorcerer/rogue 9 sorcerer/wizard 1 Sorcerer/PrC 1 (use increase caster level and apply it to wizard) at 11th level, you have the abilities of an 11th level sorcerer, 9th levle rogue, 2 levels of wizard casting, and yoru PrC abilities. The otehr optimization is for yoru player toi swap out sorcerer for the PrC, and keep advancing in rogue, which is probably more optimised really.
Millennium 12-20-05, 04:58 PM	Remember folks: level-for-level, nothing stacks in gestalt. PC has leveled as a Sorceror/Rogue for 10 levels. At level 11 he chooses a level of Sorceror and also a level of a prestige class that raises his arcane caster level. Would he then be a level 12 Sorceror for his spells (ie, 11 from his level 11 sorceror, and 1 from his prestige class)? Not the way he's got it set up, no. However, If he took another level of Sorcerer/Rogue and then a level of Rogue/PrC, then he'd have a caster level of 12. But at that point, he'd also have a character level of 12, so things stay balanced. Let's look at this from a slightly different tactic, by expressing spellcasting as a set of feats: ---------- Spellcasting Prerequisite: A score of 10 or higher in the ability which drives the spellcasting in the chosen class. Effect: Choose one spellcasting class. You can now cast spells as a first-level member of that class. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Every time you take this feat, it applies to a different class. Improved Spellcasting Prerequisite: Spellcasting Effect: Choose one class for which you have the Spellcasting feat. Your spellcasting abilities in the chosen class increase by one level. Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time you take this feat, you must choose which class to apply it to. The effects of this feat stack with other instances of the feat taken for the same class, but not for other classes. ---------- Now, consider each spellcasting class to get Spellcasting[class] at first level as a bonus feat. For example, at first level, wizards get Spellcasting[wizard]. At higher levels, the spellcasting classes get Improved Spellcasting[class] as a bonus feat, usually at every level. So a second-level wizard gets Improved Spellcasting[wizard] as a bonus feat, and he gets it again at every level thereafter. Now, let's look at the PrCs. Whenever a PC gets "+1 to level of existing spellcasting class", consider this to be getting Improved Spellcasting[any] as a bonus feat: the character may apply it to any class for which he already has Spellcasting (though most PrCs require you to choose an arcane class or a divine class). OK; that took a lot of setup, but now we get to my point. Nothing stacks in Gestalt, which is why someone can't gestalt as a rogue/rogue and get twice the Sneak Attack damage. Apply this to your character's situation. As a sorcerer, he gets Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] when he levels up. As this PrC, he gets Improved Spellcasting[any] when he levels. He could apply this to any spellcasting he wants, but because he already got Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] from his sorcerer level, if he tries to take Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] from the PrC level, they won't stack. One of the two feats would be wasted. If the character had a level of bard from way back when, then he could take Improved Spellcasting[bard] with his PrC bonus feat, and this would be fine. Then he'd have gotten Improved Spellcasting[sorcerer] and Improved Spellcasting[bard] at that level. In no case is his caster level higher than his character level. I hope this makes some sense. Sometimes when dealing with things like this, I find that it helps to try and express class abilities as feats or chains of feats.