Gestalt Character's CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Character's CR [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hsien
09-28-07, 04:15 PM I don't have my book on me, appreciate any help.
Lookin to make the BBEG, but do to the nature of the setting he'll be alone against a good sized party; 6 players avg lvl 17.

Searched forums and found one houserule ref that when adding Gestalt levels
1/3 HD = +1 CR
1/2 HD = +2 CR
Full HD = +3 CR

So for simple example sake...
20 Fighter/10 Rogue would be CR21 or...
20 Fighter/20 Rogue Gestalt would be CR23 using that.

Is that right or is there some official CR ranking in the book I don't recall?
Zaranthan
10-02-07, 07:21 PM A few points, depending upon how one interprets your circumstances:

1. Don't mix and match gestalt. Either everything with class levels is gestalt, or nothing is. Don't throw a gestalt villain at normal PCs and expect challenge ratings to mean much. Gestalt is a campaign setting, not a template.

2. When throwing gestalt players at ordinary monsters, consider the monsters' CR to be two less than listed. This works best with the typical encounter setup of multiple monsters versus the party. A single troll will eat a party of level 3 gestalt characters.

3. The houserule you read refers to adding gestalt class levels alongside a monster's racial hit dice. Not what you're thinking of. Add the class levels evenly.

Your best bet for a lone BBEG is to have him turn the battlefield into a hazard. Summoned/called monsters, well-programmed traps, and a properly wearisome dungeon are all essential to prevent your mastermind from becoming a paper tiger who loses initiative and gets one-shotted. Don't let the players cast all their rounds/CL buffs right before the fight. Don't let the players REACH the fight with all their buffs still ready. Have the bad guy retreat past a locked door, leaving the players in a flooding room that throws lightning bolts around every round.

A level 20 bad guy vs. a party of level 17s (even six of them) is not going to be entertaining, no matter how the dice fly.
Hsien
10-02-07, 08:10 PM Not entertaining? Maybe your right, from what I'm looking at I may have to tone the BBEG down some.

Thanks for the tips, I've managed to come up with a few surprises.
I'm hoping though that the gestalt levels/abilities make the BBEG tough enough, without having to drive into epic levels to get the effect/feel I want.
pigknight
10-06-07, 11:58 PM For the big bad villian just make him trisault (a fighter/cleric/duskblade can use only a quicked summon undead IX, a Harm, a Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave, the weapon focus tree, a 3d6 greatsword type thing, a +5 unholy flame burst spellstoring (Harm) 3d6 greatsword, and 31 strength to do a minimum 10003 points of damage if all attacks hit, all rolls are 1s and everyone passes the Harm's will saves). And I don't touch CRs because my are they so much tougher just cause they're gesault. A sorcerer/rogue is gonna have just as hard a time beating things that require fort saves.
rys
10-08-07, 06:05 PM If you have a party of 17s, against 1 Bad guy, the thing that will crush him is 6 on 1. 6 actions for his every one.

I agree with the sentiment, turn the battlefield into a hazard. Split the party. Have distractions, both real and false.

Head to head, he'll have to mow them down fast, or they'll consume him. Probably not the batlte you want.

Gestalt helps, but it doesn't actually give him more actions per round, which is what will break him.
falcore51
10-09-07, 12:21 PM Gestalt really only works with 4 players or less, even better with 3. It allows a smaller group to have multiple roles to help the party survive.
Hsien
10-09-07, 04:10 PM Thnaks for the tips.
My current set up is a 20/10 Gestalt set up (20/20 was to much ) with magic items to enhance his effectiveness and several special abilities for classes/PrC that will be sure to shock the players and provide plenty of extra attacks/damage output.

There's also another opponent for the players to deal with potentially; depends on how things go over the next few games.
ThorGuy
10-14-07, 05:52 PM What I've heard is Full Gestalt = +1 CR.
Making 2 enemies instead of 1 increases the CR by +2, but making a single enemy Gestalt is less of an improvement, as a Gestalt is still limited by how many actions he can take each round.
Holy_Beholder
10-16-07, 06:59 PM The guy needs backup, there is nothing else to that. Make him a gestalt warblade/wizard(recovering manuevers means you can't use a manuever that round. But you can use a spell) with an apprentice warblade/wizard(who also mainly summons. Warblades just so he doesn't get slaughtered. That way, he can't be ganged up on anywhere near as much.
Hsien
10-17-07, 10:17 AM Since the group can be anywhere from 6 to 10 people ( on the rare occasion that everyone shows ).

I don't want to change the concept; Mage Slayer type, so I'll work up some allies/mercs.
Holy_Beholder
10-17-07, 10:25 PM Mage slayer then? Complete warrior has the occult slayer, you might want to try that in parallel with the warblade levels. Maybe splash rogue a bit on one of the sides too,(warblade hits, and gets sneak attack damage) and make sure the fight starts in an antimagic field. You might want to take caster levels, but not many, just for spells like teleport, and dispell magic, or you could use items for this.
Hsien
10-18-07, 10:37 AM Thanks for the tips...they may get to that fight this weekend.
I'll let you know how it turned out and if it worked well or not..
Hsien
10-27-07, 12:30 PM After they ignore clues and "prismatic" critical errors on the party's part (don't ask) there were just 2 casters left standing.
I was going to use the non-gestalt version I had as back-up but turned out they both had less then 20 hp's left and well, it just didn't matter. That was the end of the party basically.

So still no clear idea how the match up would have worked out.
I think if the entire party had been there it would have been a good fight.

I don't have her on me at the moment but she was a mage slayer.
Gestalt: only gave Gestalt levels for the PrC's that are not the Arcanopath.
And not 100% sure of exact level order.
Eventually took Swift Hunter feat but did not allow the level stacking portion of it and had favored foe = Arcanist
Heres what I basically recall of general class build.

1 Scout/ (1) Ranger
2 Scout / (1) Battledancer
3 (2) Battle Dancer / (1) Monk
4 (3) Battle Dancer / (2) Monk
5 (4) Battle Dancer / (3) Monk
6 (5) Battle Dancer / (4) Monk
7 (3) Scout / (1) Fighter
8 (4) Scout / (2) Fighter
9 (1) Dervish / (1) Swordsage (Desert Wind)
10 (1) Occult Slayer / (2) Swordsage (Desert Wind)
11 (2) Occult Slayer / (3) Swordsage (Desert Wind)
12-20 (1-9 )Arcanopath Monk

Battle Dancer and Arcanopath are both from Dragon Compendium

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hsien 09-28-07, 04:15 PM	I don't have my book on me, appreciate any help. Lookin to make the BBEG, but do to the nature of the setting he'll be alone against a good sized party; 6 players avg lvl 17. Searched forums and found one houserule ref that when adding Gestalt levels 1/3 HD = +1 CR 1/2 HD = +2 CR Full HD = +3 CR So for simple example sake... 20 Fighter/10 Rogue would be CR21 or... 20 Fighter/20 Rogue Gestalt would be CR23 using that. Is that right or is there some official CR ranking in the book I don't recall?
Zaranthan 10-02-07, 07:21 PM	A few points, depending upon how one interprets your circumstances: 1. Don't mix and match gestalt. Either everything with class levels is gestalt, or nothing is. Don't throw a gestalt villain at normal PCs and expect challenge ratings to mean much. Gestalt is a campaign setting, not a template. 2. When throwing gestalt players at ordinary monsters, consider the monsters' CR to be two less than listed. This works best with the typical encounter setup of multiple monsters versus the party. A single troll will eat a party of level 3 gestalt characters. 3. The houserule you read refers to adding gestalt class levels alongside a monster's racial hit dice. Not what you're thinking of. Add the class levels evenly. Your best bet for a lone BBEG is to have him turn the battlefield into a hazard. Summoned/called monsters, well-programmed traps, and a properly wearisome dungeon are all essential to prevent your mastermind from becoming a paper tiger who loses initiative and gets one-shotted. Don't let the players cast all their rounds/CL buffs right before the fight. Don't let the players REACH the fight with all their buffs still ready. Have the bad guy retreat past a locked door, leaving the players in a flooding room that throws lightning bolts around every round. A level 20 bad guy vs. a party of level 17s (even six of them) is not going to be entertaining, no matter how the dice fly.
Hsien 10-02-07, 08:10 PM	Not entertaining? Maybe your right, from what I'm looking at I may have to tone the BBEG down some. Thanks for the tips, I've managed to come up with a few surprises. I'm hoping though that the gestalt levels/abilities make the BBEG tough enough, without having to drive into epic levels to get the effect/feel I want.
pigknight 10-06-07, 11:58 PM	For the big bad villian just make him trisault (a fighter/cleric/duskblade can use only a quicked summon undead IX, a Harm, a Whirlwind Attack, Great Cleave, the weapon focus tree, a 3d6 greatsword type thing, a +5 unholy flame burst spellstoring (Harm) 3d6 greatsword, and 31 strength to do a minimum 10003 points of damage if all attacks hit, all rolls are 1s and everyone passes the Harm's will saves). And I don't touch CRs because my are they so much tougher just cause they're gesault. A sorcerer/rogue is gonna have just as hard a time beating things that require fort saves.
rys 10-08-07, 06:05 PM	If you have a party of 17s, against 1 Bad guy, the thing that will crush him is 6 on 1. 6 actions for his every one. I agree with the sentiment, turn the battlefield into a hazard. Split the party. Have distractions, both real and false. Head to head, he'll have to mow them down fast, or they'll consume him. Probably not the batlte you want. Gestalt helps, but it doesn't actually give him more actions per round, which is what will break him.
falcore51 10-09-07, 12:21 PM	Gestalt really only works with 4 players or less, even better with 3. It allows a smaller group to have multiple roles to help the party survive.
Hsien 10-09-07, 04:10 PM	Thnaks for the tips. My current set up is a 20/10 Gestalt set up (20/20 was to much ) with magic items to enhance his effectiveness and several special abilities for classes/PrC that will be sure to shock the players and provide plenty of extra attacks/damage output. There's also another opponent for the players to deal with potentially; depends on how things go over the next few games.
ThorGuy 10-14-07, 05:52 PM	What I've heard is Full Gestalt = +1 CR. Making 2 enemies instead of 1 increases the CR by +2, but making a single enemy Gestalt is less of an improvement, as a Gestalt is still limited by how many actions he can take each round.
Holy_Beholder 10-16-07, 06:59 PM	The guy needs backup, there is nothing else to that. Make him a gestalt warblade/wizard(recovering manuevers means you can't use a manuever that round. But you can use a spell) with an apprentice warblade/wizard(who also mainly summons. Warblades just so he doesn't get slaughtered. That way, he can't be ganged up on anywhere near as much.
Hsien 10-17-07, 10:17 AM	Since the group can be anywhere from 6 to 10 people ( on the rare occasion that everyone shows ). I don't want to change the concept; Mage Slayer type, so I'll work up some allies/mercs.
Holy_Beholder 10-17-07, 10:25 PM	Mage slayer then? Complete warrior has the occult slayer, you might want to try that in parallel with the warblade levels. Maybe splash rogue a bit on one of the sides too,(warblade hits, and gets sneak attack damage) and make sure the fight starts in an antimagic field. You might want to take caster levels, but not many, just for spells like teleport, and dispell magic, or you could use items for this.
Hsien 10-18-07, 10:37 AM	Thanks for the tips...they may get to that fight this weekend. I'll let you know how it turned out and if it worked well or not..
Hsien 10-27-07, 12:30 PM	After they ignore clues and "prismatic" critical errors on the party's part (don't ask) there were just 2 casters left standing. I was going to use the non-gestalt version I had as back-up but turned out they both had less then 20 hp's left and well, it just didn't matter. That was the end of the party basically. So still no clear idea how the match up would have worked out. I think if the entire party had been there it would have been a good fight. I don't have her on me at the moment but she was a mage slayer. Gestalt: only gave Gestalt levels for the PrC's that are not the Arcanopath. And not 100% sure of exact level order. Eventually took Swift Hunter feat but did not allow the level stacking portion of it and had favored foe = Arcanist Heres what I basically recall of general class build. 1 Scout/ (1) Ranger 2 Scout / (1) Battledancer 3 (2) Battle Dancer / (1) Monk 4 (3) Battle Dancer / (2) Monk 5 (4) Battle Dancer / (3) Monk 6 (5) Battle Dancer / (4) Monk 7 (3) Scout / (1) Fighter 8 (4) Scout / (2) Fighter 9 (1) Dervish / (1) Swordsage (Desert Wind) 10 (1) Occult Slayer / (2) Swordsage (Desert Wind) 11 (2) Occult Slayer / (3) Swordsage (Desert Wind) 12-20 (1-9 )Arcanopath Monk Battle Dancer and Arcanopath are both from Dragon Compendium