Gestalt Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Characters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
FistFullOfHatred
08-03-04, 04:27 PM Do you think they are insanely overpowered? It seems like it to me. Also, I would think that giving it a LA in comparison to your group would be a good way to balance it. That is my 2 cents.
Riznar
08-03-04, 05:40 PM Gestalt is a campaign choice, not a character choice. Sure your characters will be fighting normal things two levels earlier than they normally would, but classed monsters and humanoids will be on the same level.

And if everyone is equal, is anything overpowered?
DM Zoc
08-03-04, 05:57 PM How about a 1/2 experience rate, instead. Make it exactly like multiclassing in 2E.
Zagan
08-03-04, 06:28 PM the 1/2 exp. point rate helps a bit but they are still too good.

they just realy arent suited for normal campaigns but....

Rule nr 1 = the DM is always right so just do what you want but dont complain later on
MetalGemini
08-03-04, 06:32 PM Thats why the book says that you should have all gestalts or no gestalts in a campaign. they are high powered and require a campaign that is suited to that style of party.

The book explains all of this.
Camellan
08-04-04, 09:34 AM Originally posted by FistFullOfHatred
Do you think they are insanely overpowered? It seems like it to me. Also, I would think that giving it a LA in comparison to your group would be a good way to balance it. That is my 2 cents.

Nope. Insanely versatile, yes. They've got no more feats or equipment or hit points than any other character of their level. They do ususally have better saves.

Play them and see.

Make the whole group Gestalts, or nobody. +2 Level adjustment might work, but you'll probably end up with unhappy players. The gestalt Wizard/Cleric will be upset that the Straight Wizard's got an extra level of spells, and the Straight Wizard'll be upset that he's not got the spell versatility of the W/C. It's the Mystic Theurge argument in microcosm.

It looks really, really good. Too good to be true. But, in play, it's not all that much more powerful.

+1 or +2 to the CR, and remember to cut down the XPs and your good to go on running for Gestalts.
Templar_Prime
08-04-04, 06:50 PM And remember to have all your villians be gestalt characters as well. And occassionally the monsters, too. It's real fun watching the expressions on people's faces when they find out that the Mind Flayer is also effectively a 15th level monk (gestaling the Savage Species Mind Flayer progression with Monk).

Be *very* careful about treasure though. The CRs might be a bit higher than what a 'normal' group would be able to handle, but giving them the loot of the raised CR might cause a Monty Haul-like atmosphere real quickly.
St. Maelstrom
08-05-04, 01:10 AM Because my group is relatively small Gestalts work great for us. I am a very stingy DM when it comes to treasure, so my players usually have fewer assets than the average. So, my 3 players need the advantages of the gestalt concept just to survive the games I run.
Oakraven
08-05-04, 01:57 AM a couple of points

Gesalts are limited by how well their other class links up with them

for example a Sorc or Mage monk gets the advantage of the monks Saves and unarmored AC, thus making it a good pareup

HOWEVER its unarmord AC will still suffer compared to a real monk because if your priority is to be a Caster first you will be putting your bonus stat points and most of your feats twards your mage side, and your skill selection is still limited (to the best of the two classes you pick) unless you focus on one aspect and let the other slide(or alternatly your spellcasting side will eventualy max out untill you can raise your int or Cha to 19)

a sub obptimal pareup would be Sorcer-Mage because while you will be getting a LOT of spellslots/points and a lot of flexibility (your Sorc should be the one with all of the nukes and your mage should be the one with all of the Utilitiy spells) you dont get any improvment in saves or HP or hand to hand over the other class) Quite frankly a Sorc-Mage will be busting his tail trying to get buffs and resists gear, almost as bad a mix with the mage classes is any class that Expects you to wear a lot of armor, as your Arcain failure rate will be handycaping you almost as hard as anthing else untill you can get enough levels as a Spellsword to negate the AC penalty.

some of the better Comboes are Cleric /Fighter-Barbarian-Bard-Ranger-Rogue Monk

Cleric-Druid will make you VERY popular with the group(healing, healing, and oh Did I forget to mention Healing? Wis is your stock in traide, unless you need to get Dex up to cover the Druids lack of Armor AC,) not to mention all of thoes buffs and your pet tank to help keep preasure off of the real tanks in the form of the Druids Animal companion) but suffers from blah save bonuses

Any of the casting classes, if used as the secondary class tends to run into the brick wall of their Stat limit, Especialy if your having to pump up other stats of your "main"(rangers often need to keep both Dex and Str up due to their use of lighter armor)

and, if your hopeing to pump Rogue class for its Skillpoints, forget it, any DM worth his salt will be expeting you to put at least half of the extra points into Rogue skills.
Ogmug
08-05-04, 03:39 PM Gestalts aren't all that powerful.

1. they are only one character, and thus, can still only do one thing at a time (you cannot cast both the wizzy and the cleric spell at the same time.. so do you heal or nuke?)
2. their skill points are spread out amongst the classes (do i concentrate on getting my hide skill up, move silently, or concentration, spellcraft, or heal or.. or..)

This leads to a problem when faced with multiple dilemmas, and with regards to skills used (your disable device is what? your search is what? LOL You fail).
Deluxe 247 G
08-08-04, 06:39 PM I just posted something very similar to this but here goes again...

Here's what I came up with for gestalt/normal characters.

Normally characters level up as follows:
Level 2: 1000
Level 3: 3000
Level 4: 6000
Level 5: 10000
Level 6: 15000
Level 7: 21000
Level 8: 28000
Level 9: 36000
Level 10: 45000

And so on and so forth.

After much testing and consideration I decided to multiply the gestalt character needs by 7/4. So say you want to make a 3rd level gestalt character. You take the normal 3000 EXP needed, and multiply it by 7/4. You end up with 5,250. I decided to do this because it's not quite twice as slow, but it's over half-way better. Here are the standard charts for gestalt.

Gestalt characters level up as follows:
Level 2: 1750
Level 3: 5250
Level 4: 10500
Level 5: 17500
Level 6: 26250
Level 7: 36750
Level 8: 49000
Level 9: 63000
Level 10: 78750

And so on and so forth.

What do you guys think about this?
Should we just leave the two different characters in different settings or what?

Thanks,
Eli
april151978
08-08-04, 07:19 PM Hate to sound like a nag, but there are notes after explination of Gestalt character creation for adjusting encounters and the such for those types of characters...

Another thing, you could make a fighter/wizard or something else that versitile, but you still have the same number of actions a round, and you still can't wear armor (unless you still all your spells), etc...

They are versitile, but not uberpowerful...
St. Maelstrom
08-08-04, 09:36 PM I agree with what many of the posters on this thread have said about the power of Gestalts. That is to say, they do have their advantages, but they are not insanely powerful. They do open up a slew of options though. So like I said before they are real useful if your party is small.
Ogmug
08-09-04, 12:41 PM You can still wear armor, but you take the Penalty chance of spell failures, last i checked.

IE, Chain has a 20% chance of spell failure...
april151978
08-09-04, 01:52 PM Originally posted by Ogmug
You can still wear armor, but you take the Penalty chance of spell failures, last i checked.

IE, Chain has a 20% chance of spell failure...

Ok, so I wasn't 100% clear, but I think everyone understands you are still under both classes restrictions...
Ogmug
08-09-04, 04:55 PM There are no restrictions on wizards or sorcerers wearing armor (druids however may never wear metal). So a fighter / wizard may wear armor if he so choses. A fighter druid however would be restricted to leather, hide, etc. (any non metal).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

Note, it does not say a sorcerer cannot wear armor, just that in doing so, he incurs a chance that his spells will fail (hence the arcane spell failure stat on armor).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
FistFullOfHatred 08-03-04, 04:27 PM	Do you think they are insanely overpowered? It seems like it to me. Also, I would think that giving it a LA in comparison to your group would be a good way to balance it. That is my 2 cents.
Riznar 08-03-04, 05:40 PM	Gestalt is a campaign choice, not a character choice. Sure your characters will be fighting normal things two levels earlier than they normally would, but classed monsters and humanoids will be on the same level. And if everyone is equal, is anything overpowered?
DM Zoc 08-03-04, 05:57 PM	How about a 1/2 experience rate, instead. Make it exactly like multiclassing in 2E.
Zagan 08-03-04, 06:28 PM	the 1/2 exp. point rate helps a bit but they are still too good. they just realy arent suited for normal campaigns but.... Rule nr 1 = the DM is always right so just do what you want but dont complain later on
MetalGemini 08-03-04, 06:32 PM	Thats why the book says that you should have all gestalts or no gestalts in a campaign. they are high powered and require a campaign that is suited to that style of party. The book explains all of this.
Camellan 08-04-04, 09:34 AM	Originally posted by FistFullOfHatred Do you think they are insanely overpowered? It seems like it to me. Also, I would think that giving it a LA in comparison to your group would be a good way to balance it. That is my 2 cents. Nope. Insanely versatile, yes. They've got no more feats or equipment or hit points than any other character of their level. They do ususally have better saves. Play them and see. Make the whole group Gestalts, or nobody. +2 Level adjustment might work, but you'll probably end up with unhappy players. The gestalt Wizard/Cleric will be upset that the Straight Wizard's got an extra level of spells, and the Straight Wizard'll be upset that he's not got the spell versatility of the W/C. It's the Mystic Theurge argument in microcosm. It looks really, really good. Too good to be true. But, in play, it's not all that much more powerful. +1 or +2 to the CR, and remember to cut down the XPs and your good to go on running for Gestalts.
Templar_Prime 08-04-04, 06:50 PM	And remember to have all your villians be gestalt characters as well. And occassionally the monsters, too. It's real fun watching the expressions on people's faces when they find out that the Mind Flayer is also effectively a 15th level monk (gestaling the Savage Species Mind Flayer progression with Monk). Be very careful about treasure though. The CRs might be a bit higher than what a 'normal' group would be able to handle, but giving them the loot of the raised CR might cause a Monty Haul-like atmosphere real quickly.
St. Maelstrom 08-05-04, 01:10 AM	Because my group is relatively small Gestalts work great for us. I am a very stingy DM when it comes to treasure, so my players usually have fewer assets than the average. So, my 3 players need the advantages of the gestalt concept just to survive the games I run.
Oakraven 08-05-04, 01:57 AM	a couple of points Gesalts are limited by how well their other class links up with them for example a Sorc or Mage monk gets the advantage of the monks Saves and unarmored AC, thus making it a good pareup HOWEVER its unarmord AC will still suffer compared to a real monk because if your priority is to be a Caster first you will be putting your bonus stat points and most of your feats twards your mage side, and your skill selection is still limited (to the best of the two classes you pick) unless you focus on one aspect and let the other slide(or alternatly your spellcasting side will eventualy max out untill you can raise your int or Cha to 19) a sub obptimal pareup would be Sorcer-Mage because while you will be getting a LOT of spellslots/points and a lot of flexibility (your Sorc should be the one with all of the nukes and your mage should be the one with all of the Utilitiy spells) you dont get any improvment in saves or HP or hand to hand over the other class) Quite frankly a Sorc-Mage will be busting his tail trying to get buffs and resists gear, almost as bad a mix with the mage classes is any class that Expects you to wear a lot of armor, as your Arcain failure rate will be handycaping you almost as hard as anthing else untill you can get enough levels as a Spellsword to negate the AC penalty. some of the better Comboes are Cleric /Fighter-Barbarian-Bard-Ranger-Rogue Monk Cleric-Druid will make you VERY popular with the group(healing, healing, and oh Did I forget to mention Healing? Wis is your stock in traide, unless you need to get Dex up to cover the Druids lack of Armor AC,) not to mention all of thoes buffs and your pet tank to help keep preasure off of the real tanks in the form of the Druids Animal companion) but suffers from blah save bonuses Any of the casting classes, if used as the secondary class tends to run into the brick wall of their Stat limit, Especialy if your having to pump up other stats of your "main"(rangers often need to keep both Dex and Str up due to their use of lighter armor) and, if your hopeing to pump Rogue class for its Skillpoints, forget it, any DM worth his salt will be expeting you to put at least half of the extra points into Rogue skills.
Ogmug 08-05-04, 03:39 PM	Gestalts aren't all that powerful. 1. they are only one character, and thus, can still only do one thing at a time (you cannot cast both the wizzy and the cleric spell at the same time.. so do you heal or nuke?) 2. their skill points are spread out amongst the classes (do i concentrate on getting my hide skill up, move silently, or concentration, spellcraft, or heal or.. or..) This leads to a problem when faced with multiple dilemmas, and with regards to skills used (your disable device is what? your search is what? LOL You fail).
Deluxe 247 G 08-08-04, 06:39 PM	I just posted something very similar to this but here goes again... Here's what I came up with for gestalt/normal characters. Normally characters level up as follows: Level 2: 1000 Level 3: 3000 Level 4: 6000 Level 5: 10000 Level 6: 15000 Level 7: 21000 Level 8: 28000 Level 9: 36000 Level 10: 45000 And so on and so forth. After much testing and consideration I decided to multiply the gestalt character needs by 7/4. So say you want to make a 3rd level gestalt character. You take the normal 3000 EXP needed, and multiply it by 7/4. You end up with 5,250. I decided to do this because it's not quite twice as slow, but it's over half-way better. Here are the standard charts for gestalt. Gestalt characters level up as follows: Level 2: 1750 Level 3: 5250 Level 4: 10500 Level 5: 17500 Level 6: 26250 Level 7: 36750 Level 8: 49000 Level 9: 63000 Level 10: 78750 And so on and so forth. What do you guys think about this? Should we just leave the two different characters in different settings or what? Thanks, Eli
april151978 08-08-04, 07:19 PM	Hate to sound like a nag, but there are notes after explination of Gestalt character creation for adjusting encounters and the such for those types of characters... Another thing, you could make a fighter/wizard or something else that versitile, but you still have the same number of actions a round, and you still can't wear armor (unless you still all your spells), etc... They are versitile, but not uberpowerful...
St. Maelstrom 08-08-04, 09:36 PM	I agree with what many of the posters on this thread have said about the power of Gestalts. That is to say, they do have their advantages, but they are not insanely powerful. They do open up a slew of options though. So like I said before they are real useful if your party is small.
Ogmug 08-09-04, 12:41 PM	You can still wear armor, but you take the Penalty chance of spell failures, last i checked. IE, Chain has a 20% chance of spell failure...
april151978 08-09-04, 01:52 PM	Originally posted by Ogmug You can still wear armor, but you take the Penalty chance of spell failures, last i checked. IE, Chain has a 20% chance of spell failure... Ok, so I wasn't 100% clear, but I think everyone understands you are still under both classes restrictions...
Ogmug 08-09-04, 04:55 PM	There are no restrictions on wizards or sorcerers wearing armor (druids however may never wear metal). So a fighter / wizard may wear armor if he so choses. A fighter druid however would be restricted to leather, hide, etc. (any non metal). Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail. Note, it does not say a sorcerer cannot wear armor, just that in doing so, he incurs a chance that his spells will fail (hence the arcane spell failure stat on armor).