Gestalt CR vs Normal Characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt CR vs Normal Characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jagggar
05-21-06, 05:04 AM Okay, I know you're supposed to balance gestalt by having it played with gestalt. But for the last couple of weeks I've thought about using a gestalt character for the occasional BBEG.

I'm guessing a +1 or +2 to CR, but does anyone have a better idea or maybe even tried it before?
Bluntpencil2001
05-21-06, 07:59 AM It would depend on the classes mixed.

A gestalt Wizard/\Rogue would be better than a gestalt Monk/\Fighter for example, because Wizards and Rogues both rely on Intelligence for skills and spells, whereas the Monk can't take advantage of the Fighter's armour proficiencies.
obrysii
05-21-06, 09:23 AM It would depend on the classes mixed.

A gestalt Wizard/\Rogue would be better than a gestalt Monk/\Fighter for example, because Wizards and Rogues both rely on Intelligence for skills and spells, whereas the Monk can't take advantage of the Fighter's armour proficiencies.

But the monk and the fighter both rely on strength and consitution.

And the monk can take advantage of the fighter's huge number of bonus feats.
jagggar
05-21-06, 09:48 AM Don't forget the monk//fighter taking advantage of fighter BAB and monk's unarmed damage.

I think a Sorcerer//Wizard might gain less as an enemy because both hit dice are the same (d4, good will, poor everything else). A player will get more out of the increased spells per day because they're expected to live, but with the few hit points, the enemy Sorcerer//Wizard will hopefully be dead before using all their spells

But this is why I'm looking for guesstamations.

Edit: Oh yeah, dunno if it'll be influential, but I'm mostly planning on straight builds. If I use a PrC, it'll probably just be one. I'm not going to throw some crazy build from the CO boards with a bunch of different PrCs thrown together.
Zarius_Aurion
05-21-06, 03:12 PM Don't forget the monk benefits from the increased HD of the fighter also. At lower lvls, its not quite as powerful, so maybe only +1. But it gets scary in higher lvls...
Bluntpencil2001
05-21-06, 03:20 PM Maybe Monk/Fighter was a bad example.

But you see what I mean, right?
GMforPowergamers
05-21-06, 05:33 PM I ran a group of Gestaults in a game that my PCs where not. Let me tell you about it.

I had a group of Soul Knife//Paliden that worked with the PCs, wearing heavy armor, smiting evil, and having a mind Blade. (My PCs thought I had multi classed them all the way through the game) It allowed me to bring in Knights of The Mind when MY pcs where only 6th level as 4th level and not overshadow them too much.

I also had a Villian do Monk//Rouge that multiclassed into Shadowdancer//Street fighter. He was 9th/3rd. He showed up when they were 10th level and wasn't finaly killed intill they were 13th.
He also had henchmen that were Ninga 3rd/ Psi-warrior 5th multi classed.

Overall I found that it didn't do too much to the CRs and the PCs thought it was cool a tthe time.

:lightbulb I do have a thought, what would a Fighter//Psiwarrior level 5 look like, human... 9 feats, 3 from psi warrior, 3 from fighter 2 from levels 1 from human... and Good Bab, good Fort save, D10's hps... maybe a new villian for my new game...just kidding :evillaugh
alchemyprime
05-21-06, 05:48 PM From what I realized... my gestalts, all at first level, easily took down a fifth level char...

However, one of our normal characters took down a gestalt hand-to-hand, using only his normal abilites...

I've decided that Gestalts are about the same as a normal PC untill third level. After that, it's one extra level in CR for every three... So a fourth level gestalt is about a fifth or sixth level character...

And, now that I think of it, gestalts make for more fantasy esque characters. I may want to change my club D&D group into a gestalt group... of course, this could make for some extra powerful PCs, seeing as how I use a LOT of UA rules...

Any way, just make the CRs 1.3 times what they would be. That's how I've handled it, and we've had a great experience so far...
Freedon_Nadd
05-22-06, 04:45 AM awesome responces on the last two from experience. so i can understand what you're saying for CR-wise alchemyprime, take the levels of said pcs and multiply that by 1.3?

running a campaign for few friends, and since it's two players and me, opted to let them play gestalts to kind of even out the power-difference of having solely 2 players. nice to figure out all this stuff ahead of time.

and monk /\ fighter is a good gestalt combo if simply for the feats.
a combo i'd be afraid to see would be rogue /\ soulknife (d6 sneak attack + d8 damage to anything that has a mind).

I'm debating tossing in a gestalt rogue / something mix to help the pc's out as neither of them actually took rogue, so would be useful to insure they survive some of the traps that will inevitably come their way. maybe rogue / bard or some other support class. = )
jagggar
05-22-06, 10:10 AM Thanks for the input guys.

For some reason, it seems easier to me to make a gestalt character a level or two lower than normal than to find a good multiclass combo (or then do we use the PrC?).
Freedon_Nadd
05-22-06, 10:37 AM Thanks for the input guys.

For some reason, it seems easier to me to make a gestalt character a level or two lower than normal than to find a good multiclass combo (or then do we use the PrC?).

I find myself in the same boat.

Debating in the story-arc i'm making what to make the "boss" npc that'll be up against the pc's. I had a great initial idea, but that idea is primarily for major cities (the likes of Waterdeep size) that are major metropoli.

Anywho, yes I can understand what you're talking about with Gestalts being easier to update than just normal chars. It's so much -easier- to have an actual true "character" concept. While easy to make a number of truly over-powering characters, just so much more "Role" play-able.
alchemyprime
05-24-06, 05:05 PM Yeah, multiply the PC's levels by 1.3 to get the monster's CR.

Well, I changed my Club group to gestalt. What our group is now is:
Raim Makisuba- Human- Fighter/Psion 5, Fighter/Electrokineticist 8
Kata Makisuba- Human with Intermediate Djinni Bloodline- Paragon/Bloodlin 2, Paragon/Wizard 1, Fighter/Wizard 10
James "Wulf" Oakleaf- Shifter- Tiger Strike Monk/Wilderness Rogue 8, Tiger Strike Monk/Were-touched Master 5 (Wolf)
Daiku Raigedon- Human- Emulator (in sig) / Psychic Warrior 5, Emulator/Cryokineticist 8
Harrock the Red- Wizard/Psion 5, Slayer/Wizard 4, Psion/ Red Wizard (I use it in Eberron, big freaking deal) 4.

I've seen them do some interesting things. I've noticed that the Shifter is perhaps the weakest, and the Electrokineticist the strongest, but then gain, that was one campaign. I will try more in the furture.

Also, our boss NPCs, made to fight 25th level characters, will be a Gun Mage/Cleric, a Cleric/Fighter and a Psychic Warrior/Fighter. All human. They won't be easy...

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! :evillaugh

Okay, I'm good now
kdyal
05-25-06, 06:59 PM I just run it as CR+1. Seems to work with my mixed PC party.
d24478667
05-25-06, 09:51 PM If i am correct (I wouldn't know, not having UA) you can't take two prestiege classes or 1 normal 1 prestiege in a single level.
Freedon_Nadd
05-25-06, 10:05 PM If i am correct (I wouldn't know, not having UA) you can't take two prestiege classes or 1 normal 1 prestiege in a single level.

I would agree with the not taking two PrC in one level, but one normal + one PrC should be allowed far as I care.

Aside that, I haven't seen anything in UA that states any different.

Anyone got specific print to show both of us official ruling on this one?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jagggar 05-21-06, 05:04 AM	Okay, I know you're supposed to balance gestalt by having it played with gestalt. But for the last couple of weeks I've thought about using a gestalt character for the occasional BBEG. I'm guessing a +1 or +2 to CR, but does anyone have a better idea or maybe even tried it before?
Bluntpencil2001 05-21-06, 07:59 AM	It would depend on the classes mixed. A gestalt Wizard/\Rogue would be better than a gestalt Monk/\Fighter for example, because Wizards and Rogues both rely on Intelligence for skills and spells, whereas the Monk can't take advantage of the Fighter's armour proficiencies.
obrysii 05-21-06, 09:23 AM	It would depend on the classes mixed. A gestalt Wizard/\Rogue would be better than a gestalt Monk/\Fighter for example, because Wizards and Rogues both rely on Intelligence for skills and spells, whereas the Monk can't take advantage of the Fighter's armour proficiencies. But the monk and the fighter both rely on strength and consitution. And the monk can take advantage of the fighter's huge number of bonus feats.
jagggar 05-21-06, 09:48 AM	Don't forget the monk//fighter taking advantage of fighter BAB and monk's unarmed damage. I think a Sorcerer//Wizard might gain less as an enemy because both hit dice are the same (d4, good will, poor everything else). A player will get more out of the increased spells per day because they're expected to live, but with the few hit points, the enemy Sorcerer//Wizard will hopefully be dead before using all their spells But this is why I'm looking for guesstamations. Edit: Oh yeah, dunno if it'll be influential, but I'm mostly planning on straight builds. If I use a PrC, it'll probably just be one. I'm not going to throw some crazy build from the CO boards with a bunch of different PrCs thrown together.
Zarius_Aurion 05-21-06, 03:12 PM	Don't forget the monk benefits from the increased HD of the fighter also. At lower lvls, its not quite as powerful, so maybe only +1. But it gets scary in higher lvls...
Bluntpencil2001 05-21-06, 03:20 PM	Maybe Monk/Fighter was a bad example. But you see what I mean, right?
GMforPowergamers 05-21-06, 05:33 PM	I ran a group of Gestaults in a game that my PCs where not. Let me tell you about it. I had a group of Soul Knife//Paliden that worked with the PCs, wearing heavy armor, smiting evil, and having a mind Blade. (My PCs thought I had multi classed them all the way through the game) It allowed me to bring in Knights of The Mind when MY pcs where only 6th level as 4th level and not overshadow them too much. I also had a Villian do Monk//Rouge that multiclassed into Shadowdancer//Street fighter. He was 9th/3rd. He showed up when they were 10th level and wasn't finaly killed intill they were 13th. He also had henchmen that were Ninga 3rd/ Psi-warrior 5th multi classed. Overall I found that it didn't do too much to the CRs and the PCs thought it was cool a tthe time. :lightbulb I do have a thought, what would a Fighter//Psiwarrior level 5 look like, human... 9 feats, 3 from psi warrior, 3 from fighter 2 from levels 1 from human... and Good Bab, good Fort save, D10's hps... maybe a new villian for my new game...just kidding :evillaugh
alchemyprime 05-21-06, 05:48 PM	From what I realized... my gestalts, all at first level, easily took down a fifth level char... However, one of our normal characters took down a gestalt hand-to-hand, using only his normal abilites... I've decided that Gestalts are about the same as a normal PC untill third level. After that, it's one extra level in CR for every three... So a fourth level gestalt is about a fifth or sixth level character... And, now that I think of it, gestalts make for more fantasy esque characters. I may want to change my club D&D group into a gestalt group... of course, this could make for some extra powerful PCs, seeing as how I use a LOT of UA rules... Any way, just make the CRs 1.3 times what they would be. That's how I've handled it, and we've had a great experience so far...
Freedon_Nadd 05-22-06, 04:45 AM	awesome responces on the last two from experience. so i can understand what you're saying for CR-wise alchemyprime, take the levels of said pcs and multiply that by 1.3? running a campaign for few friends, and since it's two players and me, opted to let them play gestalts to kind of even out the power-difference of having solely 2 players. nice to figure out all this stuff ahead of time. and monk /\ fighter is a good gestalt combo if simply for the feats. a combo i'd be afraid to see would be rogue /\ soulknife (d6 sneak attack + d8 damage to anything that has a mind). I'm debating tossing in a gestalt rogue / something mix to help the pc's out as neither of them actually took rogue, so would be useful to insure they survive some of the traps that will inevitably come their way. maybe rogue / bard or some other support class. = )
jagggar 05-22-06, 10:10 AM	Thanks for the input guys. For some reason, it seems easier to me to make a gestalt character a level or two lower than normal than to find a good multiclass combo (or then do we use the PrC?).
Freedon_Nadd 05-22-06, 10:37 AM	Thanks for the input guys. For some reason, it seems easier to me to make a gestalt character a level or two lower than normal than to find a good multiclass combo (or then do we use the PrC?). I find myself in the same boat. Debating in the story-arc i'm making what to make the "boss" npc that'll be up against the pc's. I had a great initial idea, but that idea is primarily for major cities (the likes of Waterdeep size) that are major metropoli. Anywho, yes I can understand what you're talking about with Gestalts being easier to update than just normal chars. It's so much -easier- to have an actual true "character" concept. While easy to make a number of truly over-powering characters, just so much more "Role" play-able.
alchemyprime 05-24-06, 05:05 PM	Yeah, multiply the PC's levels by 1.3 to get the monster's CR. Well, I changed my Club group to gestalt. What our group is now is: Raim Makisuba- Human- Fighter/Psion 5, Fighter/Electrokineticist 8 Kata Makisuba- Human with Intermediate Djinni Bloodline- Paragon/Bloodlin 2, Paragon/Wizard 1, Fighter/Wizard 10 James "Wulf" Oakleaf- Shifter- Tiger Strike Monk/Wilderness Rogue 8, Tiger Strike Monk/Were-touched Master 5 (Wolf) Daiku Raigedon- Human- Emulator (in sig) / Psychic Warrior 5, Emulator/Cryokineticist 8 Harrock the Red- Wizard/Psion 5, Slayer/Wizard 4, Psion/ Red Wizard (I use it in Eberron, big freaking deal) 4. I've seen them do some interesting things. I've noticed that the Shifter is perhaps the weakest, and the Electrokineticist the strongest, but then gain, that was one campaign. I will try more in the furture. Also, our boss NPCs, made to fight 25th level characters, will be a Gun Mage/Cleric, a Cleric/Fighter and a Psychic Warrior/Fighter. All human. They won't be easy... BWAHAHAHAHAHA! :evillaugh Okay, I'm good now
kdyal 05-25-06, 06:59 PM	I just run it as CR+1. Seems to work with my mixed PC party.
d24478667 05-25-06, 09:51 PM	If i am correct (I wouldn't know, not having UA) you can't take two prestiege classes or 1 normal 1 prestiege in a single level.
Freedon_Nadd 05-25-06, 10:05 PM	If i am correct (I wouldn't know, not having UA) you can't take two prestiege classes or 1 normal 1 prestiege in a single level. I would agree with the not taking two PrC in one level, but one normal + one PrC should be allowed far as I care. Aside that, I haven't seen anything in UA that states any different. Anyone got specific print to show both of us official ruling on this one?