Post/Author/DateTime	Post
golemB 11-30-06, 01:00 AM	I want to play a gestalt Doppelganger (4 HD, Level Adjustment 4) character in a game starting at level 9. The problem is, how many "class slots" do I get, and when? Some possible good answers I can think of: 1) I'm a 5th level character with ECL 9 (due to LA 4). Since the 4 Doppelganger HD consume half of my first 4 character levels, I get 6 class level slots to fill (4+2 at the 5th level). 2) I'm a 9th level character, with 8 Doppelganger slots already filled, so I get 10 class level slots to fill (8 parallel with Doppelganger and 2 at level 9). This second option seems the easiest to use (otherwise, I don't pass the "viable at each level" test). Does this mean that the gestalt system is incompatible with playing a race with a level adjustment? Or does it just mean that a reasonable workaround must be found? 3) Perhaps the silliest solution in game terms, but conceptually clean, would be to be a "gestalt race" - i.e., be a hybrid creature (both doppelganger and another creature with equivalent to 8 HD, taking the best attributes of both). Then I'd have symmetry, and one character level left to fill with two classes.
IdleAltruism 11-30-06, 01:06 AM	I think you'd get 9 full class levels on one side and 4 monsterous +1 class level on the other. I've run gestalt monsters and if they don't have one full class they fall far behind, but sometimes they get to powerful with one full class depends on the race. Doppleganger should be fine with 9 class levels tho.
golemB 11-30-06, 01:48 AM	You mean basically the second option, right? I was thinking the best way would be to build my character each of the 3 ways and then compare against a level 9 gestalt fighter/wizard to see which would win and by how much. But the doppelganger's main powers (the reason for LA 4) are very situation-specific. If successfully posing as an ally, for example, even a very, very weak doppelganger can easily wait for the target to fall asleep and deliver a coup de grace, and stats won't matter. Or sneak up in a crowded marketplace dressed as a non-threatening person, attack, melt into the crowd, and repeat. At the very least, a lot of confusion can be sown even in a straight fight, which is hard to measure without a real character to work against, with real motivations, fears, desires, etc. So, I really appreciate your advice, since practical experience running this kind of situation is more important than raw stats.
User5127 11-30-06, 02:06 AM	I used savage species progression for non standard races. (those with LA and HD) basically if you played in my campaign you'd get the first 8 levels of doppleganger + 8 levels of what ever other class as normal. and then treat 9th level gestalt as a normal level. IE: lvl1 monster/class lvl2 monster/class lvl3 monster/class lvl4 monster/class lvl5 monster/class lvl6 monster/class lvl7 monster/class lvl8 monster/class lvl9 class/class and for things like BAB and HD you'd pick the better of wich ever was gained at that level like normal. in other words treat doppleganger as a class with 8 levels of progression and combine it with another class as you normally would for getsalt.
IdleAltruism 11-30-06, 02:08 AM	Just be careful with races that have awesome physical stats they can easily tip the scales. Other then that have fun with the race you probly would have never been able to effectively play otherwise.
User5127 11-30-06, 02:23 AM	lol, with gestalt you've almost thrown game balance out the window. besides I know my players and I ask them to make sensible choices and try to have fun. they know better than to make Pun-Pun. (not because I'm DM kill them in 2 seconds flat, but because they know i'd make the game fun for them and every one no matter what. I've worked hard to get rid of the us vs the DM mentality. so my players are fairly good at playing for fun and not for breaking the game :P)
Vengeblade 12-01-06, 09:16 AM	lol, with gestalt you've almost thrown game balance out the window. That's subjective, really. Since balance is really is the hands of the DMs between encounters and players. So balance isn't the issure here. Anyways, I've always personally ruled that you applied your racial hit dice first then your level adjustment, followed last by your classes. This helps represent that you were a creature before you took classes (Which is what you are, really.). SO the doppleganger would go like this 1.Racial HD/RacialHD 2.Racial HD/ Racial HD 3.Level Adj/Level Adj 4.Level adj/Level Adj 5.Class/Class 6.Class/Class 7.Class/Class 8.Class/Class 9.Class/Class WIth this you only have 7 hitdice, which is the important drawback to keep in mind with your enhanced attributes. This method makes monster PCs appear to follow the same guidelines in normal and gestalt games. Just my 2 copper.
User5127 12-01-06, 10:24 AM	at the very least you should get class levels in addition to the racial HD. otherwise you are technically short 4 levels worth of gestalt classes, when a human at level one would have class/class*9. racial HD are technically like a class level. so they would basically count towards getting the better of a classes BAB, save, hd, skill points, etc.
Kobold_Avenger 12-01-06, 04:49 PM	That's subjective, really. Since balance is really is the hands of the DMs between encounters and players. So balance isn't the issure here. Anyways, I've always personally ruled that you applied your racial hit dice first then your level adjustment, followed last by your classes. This helps represent that you were a creature before you took classes (Which is what you are, really.). SO the doppleganger would go like this 1.Racial HD/RacialHD 2.Racial HD/ Racial HD 3.Level Adj/Level Adj 4.Level adj/Level Adj 5.Class/Class 6.Class/Class 7.Class/Class 8.Class/Class 9.Class/Class WIth this you only have 7 hitdice, which is the important drawback to keep in mind with your enhanced attributes. This method makes monster PCs appear to follow the same guidelines in normal and gestalt games. Just my 2 copper. Hmmm.. That makes sense, though i confess i have almost none exp with gestalt games. I have heard of the rules, but never used them.