Gestalt Everything! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Everything! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArchmageOmega
10-18-07, 12:22 AM In my current campaign, the players are all gestalt, and instead of adjusting the CR of enemies, I've been giving them gestalt HD/class levels. (The Dire Rat/Barbarians were fun.) I've been giving the adjusted creatures CR equal to their HD. This seems to be working fairly well for most things, but one of my players pointed out that a great wyrm red dragon would be a CR 40 (as well as a level 40 sorcerer or whatever). My question is whether or not my calculations of CR is about right and if anyone has any other comments? I don't really mind dragons being more powerful in this game, so I don't plan on giving up the 'everything's gestalt' just for that.
Keijii
10-18-07, 07:04 AM In my group we've also started a gestalt game recently, and for whoever is the running dm we have a similar guideline. Either the monster can be gestalt with character levels (keeping it at the same CR), or the monster can be 2-4 CR's higher than that of the party's.
So far there has been no problems with this in our game.

With the case of the dragon, I would say its somewhere along the same lines as trying to gestalt sorcerer // sorcerer, which in the end would just be a normal sorcerer, because class abilities overlap in gestalt. Since the sorcerer spellcasting is a shared class ability it overlaps. The dragon would be better off taking another spellcasting class, maybe wizard.

Actually checking the srd quickly brought me to this:

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.

So, the sorcerer spellcasting will be at the rate of the sorcerer class.

Hope that helps.
zeratulcraft
10-18-07, 07:27 AM Actually I'd consider the draconic casting like most other natural spellcasting (See Rakshasas), you add sorcerer levels to your base casting ability to arrive at your new caster ability.
vorpo
10-18-07, 06:58 PM Actually I'd consider the draconic casting like most other natural spellcasting (See Rakshasas), you add sorcerer levels to your base casting ability to arrive at your new caster ability.

He's basically creating a gestalt with part red wyrm and part sorcerer. He doesn't need to combine them the way you said. A CR 40 redwyrm gestalt with lvl 40 sorc wouldn't be much of a problem IMO.
zeratulcraft
10-18-07, 08:37 PM So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels.

Dragon Sorcerer//X?
vorpo
10-18-07, 11:49 PM So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels.

Dragon Sorcerer//X?

That was the idea, using the creature's CR/HD as half of the gestalt and a class the other half (in this case, sorc)
Keijii
10-19-07, 03:26 AM So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels.

Dragon Sorcerer//X?

In the draconomnicon they have a section on dragons as player characters, and supplied a class progression for dragons. So yes, you can have the dragon as a class on the one side of the gestalt.
So the idea is Dragon // Sorcerer.
I don't have my books with me right now, but IIRC the progression stopped at level 20 as a young adult dragon for the majority of the dragons. So you will have to rely on the HD and LA for the dragon to see what ECL it is for gestalt purposes.

Feel free to correct me if I mised something.
ArchmageOmega
10-19-07, 05:14 PM Keijii, so leaving the CR alone has been working fine? A couple of the example monsters I've used so far are Shadow/Monk, Dire Rat/Barbarian, and Ettercap/Sorcerer. I've been setting the CR equal to their HD/level. (The Ettercaps were CR 5 for example.)

The dragon is just an extreme example. If I use it's HD/level as CR it'd be CR 40. If I leave it alone, it'd be CR 25 or so. I think 40 sounds closer to correct, since it'd have epic spellcasting. (We assumed that it's 5 equivalent sorcerer levels would stack with further sorcerer levels, but that for 5 levels, it'd have to take some other class so it wouldn't be sorcerer/sorcerer for those levels. In the end, it'd be something like Dragon 40//Sorcerer 35/Warlock 5.)

Edit: Oh yeah. Doesn't a dragon with 20 Dragon class levels get the same stuff as a 20 HD dragon would normally get? (I don't have the Draconomicon, but I know a little about monster classes.) If so, either method should give the same results as a gestalt.
ToastedAmphibian
10-19-07, 05:51 PM Uh, warlock?

WHY

Can anyone say "Exspansion" ?
Psiwarrior 4/fighter 1
Overchannel. Your greatwyrm growes 2 more sizes for 40 rounds.....
And gets 2 or 3 extra feats too.
ArchmageOmega
10-20-07, 03:04 AM Sorry, I just picked warlock as an arbitrary example without having access to any books. Plus, I've been trying to find fun and creative gestalts for my monsters without trying to munchkin them too much (yet :angelhide). That, and I'm mostly limited to the SRD. Actually, the shadow//monk was somewhat munchkin as an experiment, and it got beat up (lucky hit really). I think I should munchkin some of my next enemies (earth elementals ATM) a little more.

Edit: Oh yeah. Another question I've been running into lately is, what classes are appropriate for mindless creatures, like oozes?
Keijii
10-24-07, 02:28 AM Keijii, so leaving the CR alone has been working fine?

Yes. We have had no problems thus far, and the general consensus has been that whatever the players can do the monsters can as well, so the CR stays the same. It helps keep some balance in a gestalt game.
So when it is my turn to DM it is rather easy to work out what is appropriate.

Edit: Oh yeah. Doesn't a dragon with 20 Dragon class levels get the same stuff as a 20 HD dragon would normally get? (I don't have the Draconomicon, but I know a little about monster classes.) If so, either method should give the same results as a gestalt.
Yes. It is just a handy level progression matching the HD and LA that is supplied for dragons in the MM.
Saefal
10-24-07, 06:31 PM I have been running a gestalt campaign for a few years now (ever since UA was released) and I made the monsters gestalt for a while. Up until Epic it can work out just fine but when the HD start to greatly exceed the Character level and they get class levels it breaks down really quick. a 40th level sorcerer is a CR40 that means that even though your tacking it too a cr 26 monster it boosts him to a cr 48 which is way to high even for a group of gestalt 28's. I suggest when you hit epic to just add random powers and HP without worrying about HD or classes and make it a worthwhile fight.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArchmageOmega 10-18-07, 12:22 AM	In my current campaign, the players are all gestalt, and instead of adjusting the CR of enemies, I've been giving them gestalt HD/class levels. (The Dire Rat/Barbarians were fun.) I've been giving the adjusted creatures CR equal to their HD. This seems to be working fairly well for most things, but one of my players pointed out that a great wyrm red dragon would be a CR 40 (as well as a level 40 sorcerer or whatever). My question is whether or not my calculations of CR is about right and if anyone has any other comments? I don't really mind dragons being more powerful in this game, so I don't plan on giving up the 'everything's gestalt' just for that.
Keijii 10-18-07, 07:04 AM	In my group we've also started a gestalt game recently, and for whoever is the running dm we have a similar guideline. Either the monster can be gestalt with character levels (keeping it at the same CR), or the monster can be 2-4 CR's higher than that of the party's. So far there has been no problems with this in our game. With the case of the dragon, I would say its somewhere along the same lines as trying to gestalt sorcerer // sorcerer, which in the end would just be a normal sorcerer, because class abilities overlap in gestalt. Since the sorcerer spellcasting is a shared class ability it overlaps. The dragon would be better off taking another spellcasting class, maybe wizard. Actually checking the srd quickly brought me to this: Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. So, the sorcerer spellcasting will be at the rate of the sorcerer class. Hope that helps.
zeratulcraft 10-18-07, 07:27 AM	Actually I'd consider the draconic casting like most other natural spellcasting (See Rakshasas), you add sorcerer levels to your base casting ability to arrive at your new caster ability.
vorpo 10-18-07, 06:58 PM	Actually I'd consider the draconic casting like most other natural spellcasting (See Rakshasas), you add sorcerer levels to your base casting ability to arrive at your new caster ability. He's basically creating a gestalt with part red wyrm and part sorcerer. He doesn't need to combine them the way you said. A CR 40 redwyrm gestalt with lvl 40 sorc wouldn't be much of a problem IMO.
zeratulcraft 10-18-07, 08:37 PM	So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels. Dragon Sorcerer//X?
vorpo 10-18-07, 11:49 PM	So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels. Dragon Sorcerer//X? That was the idea, using the creature's CR/HD as half of the gestalt and a class the other half (in this case, sorc)
Keijii 10-19-07, 03:26 AM	So what's the other half of the gestalt? Dragon HD is gained by Age, not experience levels. Dragon Sorcerer//X? In the draconomnicon they have a section on dragons as player characters, and supplied a class progression for dragons. So yes, you can have the dragon as a class on the one side of the gestalt. So the idea is Dragon // Sorcerer. I don't have my books with me right now, but IIRC the progression stopped at level 20 as a young adult dragon for the majority of the dragons. So you will have to rely on the HD and LA for the dragon to see what ECL it is for gestalt purposes. Feel free to correct me if I mised something.
ArchmageOmega 10-19-07, 05:14 PM	Keijii, so leaving the CR alone has been working fine? A couple of the example monsters I've used so far are Shadow/Monk, Dire Rat/Barbarian, and Ettercap/Sorcerer. I've been setting the CR equal to their HD/level. (The Ettercaps were CR 5 for example.) The dragon is just an extreme example. If I use it's HD/level as CR it'd be CR 40. If I leave it alone, it'd be CR 25 or so. I think 40 sounds closer to correct, since it'd have epic spellcasting. (We assumed that it's 5 equivalent sorcerer levels would stack with further sorcerer levels, but that for 5 levels, it'd have to take some other class so it wouldn't be sorcerer/sorcerer for those levels. In the end, it'd be something like Dragon 40//Sorcerer 35/Warlock 5.) Edit: Oh yeah. Doesn't a dragon with 20 Dragon class levels get the same stuff as a 20 HD dragon would normally get? (I don't have the Draconomicon, but I know a little about monster classes.) If so, either method should give the same results as a gestalt.
ToastedAmphibian 10-19-07, 05:51 PM	Uh, warlock? WHY Can anyone say "Exspansion" ? Psiwarrior 4/fighter 1 Overchannel. Your greatwyrm growes 2 more sizes for 40 rounds..... And gets 2 or 3 extra feats too.
ArchmageOmega 10-20-07, 03:04 AM	Sorry, I just picked warlock as an arbitrary example without having access to any books. Plus, I've been trying to find fun and creative gestalts for my monsters without trying to munchkin them too much (yet :angelhide). That, and I'm mostly limited to the SRD. Actually, the shadow//monk was somewhat munchkin as an experiment, and it got beat up (lucky hit really). I think I should munchkin some of my next enemies (earth elementals ATM) a little more. Edit: Oh yeah. Another question I've been running into lately is, what classes are appropriate for mindless creatures, like oozes?
Keijii 10-24-07, 02:28 AM	Keijii, so leaving the CR alone has been working fine? Yes. We have had no problems thus far, and the general consensus has been that whatever the players can do the monsters can as well, so the CR stays the same. It helps keep some balance in a gestalt game. So when it is my turn to DM it is rather easy to work out what is appropriate. Edit: Oh yeah. Doesn't a dragon with 20 Dragon class levels get the same stuff as a 20 HD dragon would normally get? (I don't have the Draconomicon, but I know a little about monster classes.) If so, either method should give the same results as a gestalt. Yes. It is just a handy level progression matching the HD and LA that is supplied for dragons in the MM.
Saefal 10-24-07, 06:31 PM	I have been running a gestalt campaign for a few years now (ever since UA was released) and I made the monsters gestalt for a while. Up until Epic it can work out just fine but when the HD start to greatly exceed the Character level and they get class levels it breaks down really quick. a 40th level sorcerer is a CR40 that means that even though your tacking it too a cr 26 monster it boosts him to a cr 48 which is way to high even for a group of gestalt 28's. I suggest when you hit epic to just add random powers and HP without worrying about HD or classes and make it a worthwhile fight.