Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Riznar 05-20-04, 12:57 AM	Okay, I'm really sick of people posting illegal gestalt builds and talking about how it is overpowered and citing gestalt characters using PrC like mystic theurge and arcane trickster. So does anyone know how much we can post here without violating the CoC? I was thinking this thread could become a gestalt FAQ or something.
stone_dog 05-20-04, 01:38 AM	I am pretty sure you can type it all verbatim if you want. The thing is all OGC after all.
flyingmoose 05-20-04, 02:56 AM	I posted a "What is Gestalt" thread a while ago which was eventually deleted presumably because it decayed into an argument over the idea that a fighter/wizard 1|sorcerer/wizard 19 has full BAB. The thing is, the majority of people making Gestalt builds are munchkins who do not have the book and are working with just a vague idea of the rules. The biggest mistake I see is stacking of like class features. A rogue/ninja getting 20d6 sneak attack for example. Second biggest mistake is taking two PrCs at once.
Salla 05-20-04, 12:10 PM	And apparently, a big mistake is also overlooking the passage that says you shouldn't use the 'exist for ease of multiclassing' Prestige Classes like Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, and Arcane Trickster in Gestalt builds.
Slippery Mind II 05-20-04, 12:20 PM	I think you need to be as specific as possible as to what PrCs are allowed with gestalt. Another thing people overlook is that class features of two classes that are the same do not stack (Sneak Attack is one that does not stack, but you get the better progression.)
JoAT 05-20-04, 01:42 PM	Aye, but the question there is where to draw the line? Sneak attack is obviously going to have a seperate progression, but what abou, say bonus feats for a wizard/fighter (or even a Psi-warrior/fighter)? And, with sneak attacks, there are things which emulate it - a rogue fighter who trades in his fighter levels later on for Order of the Bow Iniate? It would probably be a good idea to come up with some combinations that shouldn't work, or some 'equivalent progression' type things, so that people can look at abilites and see which over-rides what - for instance, I'd say that rather than sneak attack not stacking, any precision based attacks be forced to choose the best progression - or better yet, to use the better progression (or bonus) for the circumstances.
Baron Phylos 05-20-04, 02:00 PM	Is there really something wrong with allowing the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldricht Knight and other "multi-class" PrCs with Gestalts? I don't mean anything like letting sneak attack or caster levels stack to have munchkins end up with caster level 30 at level 20 but allowing builds like Fighter20//Wizard5/Cleric5/Mystic Theurge10 or other builds of the sort doesn't seem to be some grossly overpowering thing and pretty much turns into the same argument as when the Mystic Theurge first appeared. You know "WTF?!! a Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10 is totally more powerful than a Wiz16!!" and "Nah Wiz16 will have a better chance at beating spell resistance and such, Mystic Theurge Sux." etc. etc.
Slippery Mind II 05-20-04, 02:05 PM	Originally posted by JoAT Aye, but the question there is where to draw the line? Sneak attack is obviously going to have a seperate progression, but what abou, say bonus feats for a wizard/fighter (or even a Psi-warrior/fighter)? And, with sneak attacks, there are things which emulate it - a rogue fighter who trades in his fighter levels later on for Order of the Bow Iniate? It would probably be a good idea to come up with some combinations that shouldn't work, or some 'equivalent progression' type things, so that people can look at abilites and see which over-rides what - for instance, I'd say that rather than sneak attack not stacking, any precision based attacks be forced to choose the best progression - or better yet, to use the better progression (or bonus) for the circumstances. Precisely why I said you should come up with a list of classes that A) will not be allowed with Gestalt and B) will not work with certain other classes (with respect to PrC with main classes.) OBI class bonus damage works diferently that the rogue's sneak attack damage (at least in CW book) and should stack, IMO. If you are usinf the S&F version, it should not, since it's exactly the same. Or simply enforce the higher progression (woulch would be rogue.) In essence, you should work with the player closely to make sure that it's done fairly, but I would be prepaired for whining if I were you. :D
Slippery Mind II 05-20-04, 02:09 PM	Originally posted by Baron Phylos Is there really something wrong with allowing the Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster, Eldricht Knight and other "multi-class" PrCs with Gestalts? I don't mean anything like letting sneak attack or caster levels stack to have munchkins end up with caster level 30 at level 20 but allowing builds like Fighter20//Wizard5/Cleric5/Mystic Theurge10 or other builds of the sort doesn't seem to be some grossly overpowering thing and pretty much turns into the same argument as when the Mystic Theurge first appeared. You know "WTF?!! a Clr3/Wiz3/MTh10 is totally more powerful than a Wiz16!!" and "Nah Wiz16 will have a better chance at beating spell resistance and such, Mystic Theurge Sux." etc. etc. Aside from the fact that you could qualify for Mystic at 3rd level, it's up to the individual DM. I know I wouldn't allow it becasue you can essentially go up in 3 classes at once (i.e clr3/wiz3, then go up in mystic/ftr, you don't lose progression in arcane/divine spallcasting and add fighter bab, bonus feats, etc... Total cheese.) Same thing applies to other classes that essentially combine progression of 2 classes (which is what gestalt IS.) UA specificly suggests NOT to allow combined progression PrCs with gestalt, and I for one would stick with that.
JoAT 05-20-04, 02:43 PM	Originally posted by Slippery Mind II Precisely why I said you should come up with a list of classes that A) will not be allowed with Gestalt and B) will not work with certain other classes (with respect to PrC with main classes.) OBI class bonus damage works diferently that the rogue's sneak attack damage (at least in CW book) and should stack, IMO. If you are usinf the S&F version, it should not, since it's exactly the same. Or simply enforce the higher progression (woulch would be rogue.) In essence, you should work with the player closely to make sure that it's done fairly, but I would be prepaired for whining if I were you. :D Well see, that's the thing - If people don't have a problem with characters gaining 10d6+5d8+ standard bow damage every round, while still allowing the character to move, why should they have a problem with something that allows say 10d6+3d6 from stacking the Invisible Blade's Sneak attack damage, or something similar? Either way, it's alot of damage, and it comes from what is essentially the same source - precision blows. It doesn't matter if something works diffrently - it just matters if the combination would end up being more powerful than what is standard. What is worse, if you go by what's diffrent, a Rogue/Ninja will end up with 10d6+10d6 for useing a sneak attack/sudden strike - two diffrent abilites that work remarkably similar. These things should more likely be judged by game effect, rather than by whether or not they have the same basic name.
Slippery Mind II 05-20-04, 03:13 PM	Hmm, well, I guess the whole point of gestalt characters is to make a power build in the first place. If it ends up being that a character gets 10d6 of SA +5d8 from something else, well, a 20th level gestalt might be able to do that. Thing is, OBI is mainly ranged, and youcan't get flank SA at range. I digress. Not sure about the ninja class and how that SA would work differently... But there are ways of negating SA. But I guess you were just giving an example.
Riznar 05-20-04, 03:50 PM	Sneak Attack I'm on the fence about, technically it shouldn't stack, but their are lots of SA like abilities that would stack. Bonus feats I think should stack, because they usually are pulled from different lists and have different requirements. However, many PrC offer bonus feat that can be chosen from the fighter's list, those should not stack. But I think a fighter/monk would get bonus feats for both classes, the only reason Ranger stacks with fighter is because its bonus feats have a special nickname....
Nazzareth 05-21-04, 12:50 AM	Another big thing that people are doing is posting classes that break the rule that gestalts can not combine two prestige classes at the same level.
BalancedOne 05-21-04, 01:54 PM	:teach: What my group is doing with ith Gesalts is taking the seprate "sides" of the Gesalts and determing the BAB/FORT/REF/WILL statistics seprately and taking the best from the seprate halves-example- a Wizard5/RedWizard10/Archmage5 on one "half" and a Fighter20 on the other "half" The wizard "half" would have BaB +9/ Fort +5/ Ref +5/ Will +13 while the Fighter would have BaB +20/ Fort +12/ Ref +6/ Will +6 So the Gesalted class would have BaB +20/ Fort +12/ Ref +6/ Will +13 This eliminates the absurd Ftr1/Sor19/Wiz20 BAB +20 argument by not stacking the Increases Bonus feats should stack, because they pull from diffrent lists, even ones that also pull from the fighter list, because they are from there "own" list, they just don't reprint the Fighter bonus feat list Sneak attack does not stack if the ability functions EXACTLY like Sneak attack(Ninja20{from Dragon}-Rogue20 gains 10d6 sneak attack normally, 20d6[from sudden strike]when No Dex bonus alloud) On the Dual-Class PRCs(mysThu/EldKnt/ArcTrk,ect) you can use them like this- Ftr20-Wiz5/Clr5/MysThu10 or Bbn20-Wiz5/Ftr5/EldKnt10 or Ftr20-Rog4/Sor6/ArcTrk10. they can only be used on the halve that is multiclassing for the "effect" of the Prestiese Class Also, at no point can the Caster/Manifester "base level"(not including spell power and other, similar effects) be higher than your Charicter level
Reney 05-22-04, 04:47 AM	I love the gestalt characters. I have a couple of power gamers in my party. They both seem to go out of their way to tip everything in their favor by multiclassing themselves endlessly. What makes the gestalt characters cool is that everyone who's actually trying to make a personality out of their character has a chance to stand up for themselves. Anyway, I have had to make a few rulings for it. 1. You can chose a Monster Class to take up one side. (So you could be something like a Lvl 1 Paladin/ Lvl 1 Asimar.) This worked insanely well until.... Were-bear Fighter/Kensai w/+1 Vorpal Scimitar, STR 42, and Improved Critical. Now I allow them to mix Templates with non-standard races, but under no condition can they take a creature that will give them more than +8 to any one ability score. 2. You can't take any PrC before level 6. If you qualify at level 2 that's all great and happy, but you still can't take your PrC until 6th. We also tried the "sides" thing BalancedOne mentioned, but the combination of that with the Monster Levels ends up being kind of silly. Now we just look at every class individually and take whatever is the highest unless it's BAB. We're still fighting about that one. I think it goes level by level, but a couple of my players think it's whoever has the best total. So if you're a cleric 10 (7 i think)/pixie 4 (0)/ fighter 6 (6), your BAB should be 7. I think it would go 1) 0/0 2) 1/0 3) 1/0 4) 1/0 5) 0/1 6) 1/1 7) 1/1 8) 1/1 9) 0/1 10) 1/1 for a total of 9. Since I'm the DM we do it my way, but if anyone could show me that I'm wrong I'll switch over. I don't mind if they stop slapping my BBEGs back and forth. Also, I'm trying to work out Saves and BAB in reguard to PrCs. I usually just have them add it do whatever class it's taking the place of. I have a standing rule that any PrC that adds Sneak Attack cannot be taken at the same time as another class that has Sneak Attack or a similar ability. Mainly that's Rogue, but I just know someone would use that Fighter variant to switch out Feats for SA just to get on my nerves.
Reney 05-22-04, 04:55 AM	For some reason I thought the second half of BalancedOne's post was a Sig and didn't read it >.<. I'd much, much rather have a fighter/sorc/wiz with full BAB than a character who's got 20 levels of fighter feats and can cast 9th level spells as two separate classes.
lostone 05-22-04, 01:35 PM	Originally posted by BalancedOne Sneak attack does not stack if the ability functions EXACTLY like Sneak attack(Ninja20{from Dragon}[/B] Not to go off topic, but what issue of dragon was this in?
Ebb_Lurecia 05-23-04, 12:16 AM	Hmmm. It says that to balance gestalt characters, you throw CR +1 creatures at a party of four gestalt characters (the way I understand this, you give a CR 6 monster to a party of four 5th-level gestalt characters, and this will be an 'adequate' encounter [absorbing roughly 20% of party resources, etc.]). Could this conceivably translate to a +1 level adjustment to each character (with no CR adjustment on monsters)? To me, this would make things a lot easier to fathom...
Slippery Mind II 05-23-04, 12:22 AM	Originally posted by Ebb_Lurecia Hmmm. It says that to balance gestalt characters, you throw CR +1 creatures at a party of four gestalt characters (the way I understand this, you give a CR 6 monster to a party of four 5th-level gestalt characters, and this will be an 'adequate' encounter [absorbing roughly 20% of party resources, etc.]). Could this conceivably translate to a +1 level adjustment to each character (with no CR adjustment on monsters)? To me, this would make things a lot easier to fathom... It seems to me, in this case, if you gave the LA to the characters rather than incresing the CR you are lowering (slightly) the EXP the groups would get. Not alot of players would like that, IMO, but you are welcome to it.:D
Ebb_Lurecia 05-23-04, 12:29 AM	But that indicates that gestalt characters would ALSO get more experience than regular characters...how does that make sense? I think the LA thing makes more sense.
Slippery Mind II 05-23-04, 12:45 AM	Like I said, it's up to you how you want to do it, but be prepared for whining.
JoAT 05-23-04, 05:20 PM	Originally posted by Slippery Mind II Like I said, it's up to you how you want to do it, but be prepared for whining. Oh, I dunno about that. After we went gestalt, I held a vote among my group members - 1/2 experiance (and CRs 2 levels above), or 1/4 experinace (and CRs 2 levels above) The second was unanimous...
Ebb_Lurecia 05-23-04, 05:24 PM	Sounds like your group has trouble with fractions heh
JoAT 05-23-04, 05:55 PM	Nah, they just that that, since they were going to end up so much more powerful anyways, a reduced progression would be more approriate. They still average 1/2 to 1 level a session anyways, I just get to throw in more challenges....
Slippery Mind II 05-23-04, 11:01 PM	Originally posted by JoAT Nah, they just that that, since they were going to end up so much more powerful anyways, a reduced progression would be more approriate. They still average 1/2 to 1 level a session anyways, I just get to throw in more challenges.... A level a session while earning 1/4 exp? Hmmm, something is not right here. I'm lucky to go up a level every three sessions and that is with a group of 3 characters.
riceisnice 05-23-04, 11:03 PM	No, you're for dummies.
JoAT 05-24-04, 01:34 AM	Originally posted by Slippery Mind II A level a session while earning 1/4 exp? Hmmm, something is not right here. I'm lucky to go up a level every three sessions and that is with a group of 3 characters. Nah. You should just see the amount of mea they grind through, the power of the enemies, and the overwhelming amount of damage they take. To be quite honest, I'm surpised that they only go to near death twice or three times a session apiece... But the look on theri face once they rescue the kids and destroy the last Tanurk Souldrinker is worth it....
Slippery Mind II 05-24-04, 02:06 AM	Originally posted by riceisnice No, you're for dummies. How quaint. Was this directed at me? If so, then yes, I am all for dummies.
riceisnice 05-24-04, 03:14 PM	Oh yeah.
Jaerom Darkwind 05-24-04, 05:39 PM	Hmm... I ruled that characters with ECL races could only gestault racial HD with thier ECL. Because template classes are balanced around not having HD, BAB, etc. So "empty" HD and super-powerful class abilties balance themselves out. Of course, this means that it's sweeter for Outsiders than for Humanoids, but there's no way to fix that. An Aasimar-Outsider1 is a bit more powerful than a Feytouched-Fey1 or a Duergar-Humanoid1, but not unbalancingly so. I also allow characters advancing as Racial Paragons (which I've modified and expanded to 5 level classes) to advance in racial HD if they want to (again, Outsiders do this more than other races).
Shifting Master 05-24-04, 08:18 PM	My rules on gestalt characters: 1. No Mystic Theurge. This class, as a gestalt, overpowers the game, especially taken with a barbarian or ranger class (Max BAB and all good saves, IIRC). 2. No two prestige classes at a time. This, again, overpowers the game. 3. Creature progressions are allowed. You can either have: [list=a] The creature's HD, but at the same times that the creature would gain it. The class's HD, gained every level. [/list=a] When the creature progression is finished, it can replace any number of class HD with any number of racial HD equal to a normal creature of its type's HD. 4. Racial paragon levels with normal class levels are allowed. Racial paragon classes generally do not unbalance the game, and are allowed like prestige classes are. That's basically it. Oh yeah, one question: What are the rules on gestalt paladins and monks? How does multiclassing work for them.
Hygric 05-25-04, 10:45 PM	For gestalt paladins and monks, just make sure that they take a level of paladin or monk (as the case may be) every level. If they go paladin /fighter 5, paladin / prc 10, paladin / fighter 5, thats cool. paladin / fighter 5, prc / ftr 10 and paladin / ftr 5 however is not cool. And I would strongly recomend that people use the fractional bab / saves rules with gestalt, it saves a lot of hassle if all you have to do is tally up your total levels of good, medium and bad BAB.
BalancedOne 05-28-04, 04:30 PM	The ninja is in Dragon 318, the one with the warforged and Ninja/Pirates
Krelios 06-01-04, 09:18 AM	The simplest way to handle Gestalt is to limit it to core classes only. If the PCs take a PrC at all, it is not "Gestalted" and you just take what it gives you rather than combining it. This still allows PCs to get the nifty benefits they're after without overly complicating or unbalancing the game. You could even allow the Mystic Theurge in this instance--if your previous character was a cleric/wizard than nothing really changes (in fact, it's a worse choice than simply continuing).
Riznar 06-16-04, 05:50 PM	Bump, cause apparently people still don't actually read the book.
JoshRodriguez 06-17-04, 08:14 AM	Gestalt is nice when the party is comparatively small (2 players). I usually rule that racial HD can be gestalted, but AL's can't. This keeps my players from trying to powergame too much. If I let them they'd be something like "half-dragon 4/half-celestial 4/rog 2/ftr 10" which is the not good.
lostone 06-25-04, 10:16 PM	Bump. Has anyone used Gestalt rules in Eberron yet? I realize it's supposed to be a lower power world, and was curious if anyone had done this. Does the group completely outclass everything? Any cool combinations you've discovered when using Eberron races and classes?
Kryt 06-26-04, 03:54 AM	My method of using geshalt is fairly simple. -First off my players choose one core class to always be one half of the geshalt. The other half they can mix and match as they like following the UA rules(no MT, EK or AT etc) IF they choose an ECL race there are a few more rules. 1- the Level adjustment of the creature applies to both levels of the geshalt character. IE a 5th level character siwth a LA of +3 would only have 2 geshalt class levels. 2-If the ECL race also requires racial HD those are applied to the geshalt half they are allowed to mix. IE if the character is a lvl 8 ogre character with a core class of fighter his build would look like this. lvl 6 fighter lvl 4 giant\lvl 2 X I like my method because it simplifies things greatly while also reducing min/maxing to an extreme.
BalancedOne 06-26-04, 06:11 PM	Started a Ebberron Gesalt Cmpgn., we have a- Dwarven Fighter/Cleric(Silver Flame) Half-Elf Sorcerror/Rogue(going for Dragonmarked Heir) Halfling Ranger/Barbarian(I think Dino riding halfling Bbns were the 2nd coolest things in the book) and a Warforged Artificer/Fighter(ME!!!!!!) will change fighter to wizard/spellsword later(the coolest thing in Eberron!) If you make everyone gesalt like the rules say you aren't that much more powerfull than the people