gestalt help request [Archive] - Wizards Community

gestalt help request [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GMSmith
08-23-05, 11:51 PM I've been trying to adapt the gestalt character concept from Unearthed Arcana to my Star Wars campaign (so far with success), but I've run into a few questions that I figured the D&D experts on these forums would be able to help me answer. The best way I can think of to ask the questions is in the form of examples, so here goes:

1) Say I have a 7th-level dwarf fighter/whatever, who upon gaining his next level selects fighter/dwarven defender. To determine which save progressions are the best, would I subtract the 7th-level fighters base saves from the 8th-level fighters base saves and compare those to the base saves of the 1st-level dwarven defender?

2) Say I have a 6th-level [fighter/rogue]/4th-level [rogue/blackguard]. This character should deal 5d6 sneak attack damage (as a 10th-level rogue), ignoring the blackguard's 1d6, correct?

Thanks in advance for any replies! Any help is truly appreciated!
strenoth
08-25-05, 03:03 AM For save, my reccomendation, as the only thing that makes much sense, is to use the Fractional Saves optional rule with the Gestalt rules. Read up on 'em intunearthed arcana, and hopefully you'll see what I mean :)

and correct.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-25-05, 03:37 AM 1) You're making a common mistake; misunderstanding what is meant by "progression." Ignore the silly little numbers on the silly little tables for just a moment. There's two save progressions: Good (level/2 + 2) and Poor (level/3). Say you were fighter/barbarian 7 | fighter/dwarven defender 1. Dwarven Defender has good Fort and Will, fighter and barbarian have only good Fort, so...LV FORT REF WILL
1 good poor poor
2 good poor poor
3 good poor poor
4 good poor poor
5 good poor poor
6 good poor poor
7 good poor poor
8 good poor good
8 levels of a good save is +6. 8 levels of a poor save is +2. 7 levels of poor and 1 level of good is +4. So that's +6 Fort, +2 Reflex, +4 Will.

2) Yes. Sneak attack damage is a like class feature, accruing at the rate of the faster class (rogue).

Saying Fractional BAB and Saves is a variant rule is a little like saying 1+3 is a variant on 2+2. It looks different, but the result is identical if you really look at it.
caeruleus
08-25-05, 03:07 PM Saying Fractional BAB and Saves is a variant rule is a little like saying 1+3 is a variant on 2+2. It looks different, but the result is identical if you really look at it.

Not exactly. In the standard rules, a sorcerer 1/rogue 1 (normal multiclass, not gestalt) has a BAB of +0. With the variant, it has a BAB of +1.
St. Maelstrom
08-25-05, 05:19 PM I am sorry, are you trying to calculate Multi-classing effects or Gestalt effects? The example you gave appears to be a multiclassed example not a gestalt character. I apologize if I am not following, but would you elaborate?
GMSmith
08-25-05, 06:14 PM I am sorry, are you trying to calculate Multi-classing effects or Gestalt effects? The example you gave appears to be a multiclassed example not a gestalt character. I apologize if I am not following, but would you elaborate?

Both, actually. The first example was my attempt at determining how a gestalt character that had levels of a base class/prestige class combination would determine his base saves. Thanks to all who posted, it seems that my questions have been answered :D !
Tyler Do'Urden
08-25-05, 07:52 PM Not exactly. In the standard rules, a sorcerer 1/rogue 1 (normal multiclass, not gestalt) has a BAB of +0. With the variant, it has a BAB of +1.

That's because you're looking at the table as the rule and not what it actually is: a visualization of the rule. According to the table, a sorcerer gains +1 BAB every even level. He doesn't. He gains +1/2 BAB at every level.

The strings of numbers on those silly little tables represent the end result of some math that most people don't bother with. There are three BAB progressions: Good (equal to level), Average (3/4 of level) and Poor (1/2 of level). This means that a 1st-level sorcerer would have a BAB of +1/2 and a 1st-level rogue would have a BAB of +3/4. 1/2 + 3/4 = 5/4, which simplifies to +1 1/4. Fractional modifiers are always rounded down in D&D, so it becomes +1.
Unfortunately in an attempt do to some work for you (namely rounding down) when they assembled the table, each number was rounded down separately. 3/4 rounds to 0, 1/2 rounds to 0, and of course 0 + 0 = 0.
The original math has been lost because the players don't have to do it and now "Fractional BAB and Saves" has become some alien house rule that confuses people and makes baby Jesus cry. It's not a house rule. It's just leaving the rounding for last so you can see what the actual progressions look like.
caeruleus
08-25-05, 08:56 PM That's because you're looking at the table as the rule and not what it actually is: a visualization of the rule. According to the table, a sorcerer gains +1 BAB every even level. He doesn't. He gains +1/2 BAB at every level.

The strings of numbers on those silly little tables represent the end result of some math that most people don't bother with. There are three BAB progressions: Good (equal to level), Average (3/4 of level) and Poor (1/2 of level). This means that a 1st-level sorcerer would have a BAB of +1/2 and a 1st-level rogue would have a BAB of +3/4. 1/2 + 3/4 = 5/4, which simplifies to +1 1/4. Fractional modifiers are always rounded down in D&D, so it becomes +1.
Unfortunately in an attempt do to some work for you (namely rounding down) when they assembled the table, each number was rounded down separately. 3/4 rounds to 0, 1/2 rounds to 0, and of course 0 + 0 = 0.
The original math has been lost because the players don't have to do it and now "Fractional BAB and Saves" has become some alien house rule that confuses people and makes baby Jesus cry. It's not a house rule. It's just leaving the rounding for last so you can see what the actual progressions look like.

Read the text that accompanies the table. It's described as a house rule. Browse through sample characters in various books, and you'll see (in cases where it would make a difference to the result) how BAB is calculated.

I agree that the underlying idea behind the rule is represented with fractional numbers. But that's not stated anywhere in the core books. You're not told to use the tables if you want to simplify; the tables are all you're given.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GMSmith 08-23-05, 11:51 PM	I've been trying to adapt the gestalt character concept from Unearthed Arcana to my Star Wars campaign (so far with success), but I've run into a few questions that I figured the D&D experts on these forums would be able to help me answer. The best way I can think of to ask the questions is in the form of examples, so here goes: 1) Say I have a 7th-level dwarf fighter/whatever, who upon gaining his next level selects fighter/dwarven defender. To determine which save progressions are the best, would I subtract the 7th-level fighters base saves from the 8th-level fighters base saves and compare those to the base saves of the 1st-level dwarven defender? 2) Say I have a 6th-level [fighter/rogue]/4th-level [rogue/blackguard]. This character should deal 5d6 sneak attack damage (as a 10th-level rogue), ignoring the blackguard's 1d6, correct? Thanks in advance for any replies! Any help is truly appreciated!
strenoth 08-25-05, 03:03 AM	For save, my reccomendation, as the only thing that makes much sense, is to use the Fractional Saves optional rule with the Gestalt rules. Read up on 'em intunearthed arcana, and hopefully you'll see what I mean :) and correct.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-25-05, 03:37 AM	1) You're making a common mistake; misunderstanding what is meant by "progression." Ignore the silly little numbers on the silly little tables for just a moment. There's two save progressions: Good (level/2 + 2) and Poor (level/3). Say you were fighter/barbarian 7 \| fighter/dwarven defender 1. Dwarven Defender has good Fort and Will, fighter and barbarian have only good Fort, so...LV FORT REF WILL 1 good poor poor 2 good poor poor 3 good poor poor 4 good poor poor 5 good poor poor 6 good poor poor 7 good poor poor 8 good poor good 8 levels of a good save is +6. 8 levels of a poor save is +2. 7 levels of poor and 1 level of good is +4. So that's +6 Fort, +2 Reflex, +4 Will. 2) Yes. Sneak attack damage is a like class feature, accruing at the rate of the faster class (rogue). Saying Fractional BAB and Saves is a variant rule is a little like saying 1+3 is a variant on 2+2. It looks different, but the result is identical if you really look at it.
caeruleus 08-25-05, 03:07 PM	Saying Fractional BAB and Saves is a variant rule is a little like saying 1+3 is a variant on 2+2. It looks different, but the result is identical if you really look at it. Not exactly. In the standard rules, a sorcerer 1/rogue 1 (normal multiclass, not gestalt) has a BAB of +0. With the variant, it has a BAB of +1.
St. Maelstrom 08-25-05, 05:19 PM	I am sorry, are you trying to calculate Multi-classing effects or Gestalt effects? The example you gave appears to be a multiclassed example not a gestalt character. I apologize if I am not following, but would you elaborate?
GMSmith 08-25-05, 06:14 PM	I am sorry, are you trying to calculate Multi-classing effects or Gestalt effects? The example you gave appears to be a multiclassed example not a gestalt character. I apologize if I am not following, but would you elaborate? Both, actually. The first example was my attempt at determining how a gestalt character that had levels of a base class/prestige class combination would determine his base saves. Thanks to all who posted, it seems that my questions have been answered :D !
Tyler Do'Urden 08-25-05, 07:52 PM	Not exactly. In the standard rules, a sorcerer 1/rogue 1 (normal multiclass, not gestalt) has a BAB of +0. With the variant, it has a BAB of +1. That's because you're looking at the table as the rule and not what it actually is: a visualization of the rule. According to the table, a sorcerer gains +1 BAB every even level. He doesn't. He gains +1/2 BAB at every level. The strings of numbers on those silly little tables represent the end result of some math that most people don't bother with. There are three BAB progressions: Good (equal to level), Average (3/4 of level) and Poor (1/2 of level). This means that a 1st-level sorcerer would have a BAB of +1/2 and a 1st-level rogue would have a BAB of +3/4. 1/2 + 3/4 = 5/4, which simplifies to +1 1/4. Fractional modifiers are always rounded down in D&D, so it becomes +1. Unfortunately in an attempt do to some work for you (namely rounding down) when they assembled the table, each number was rounded down separately. 3/4 rounds to 0, 1/2 rounds to 0, and of course 0 + 0 = 0. The original math has been lost because the players don't have to do it and now "Fractional BAB and Saves" has become some alien house rule that confuses people and makes baby Jesus cry. It's not a house rule. It's just leaving the rounding for last so you can see what the actual progressions look like.
caeruleus 08-25-05, 08:56 PM	That's because you're looking at the table as the rule and not what it actually is: a visualization of the rule. According to the table, a sorcerer gains +1 BAB every even level. He doesn't. He gains +1/2 BAB at every level. The strings of numbers on those silly little tables represent the end result of some math that most people don't bother with. There are three BAB progressions: Good (equal to level), Average (3/4 of level) and Poor (1/2 of level). This means that a 1st-level sorcerer would have a BAB of +1/2 and a 1st-level rogue would have a BAB of +3/4. 1/2 + 3/4 = 5/4, which simplifies to +1 1/4. Fractional modifiers are always rounded down in D&D, so it becomes +1. Unfortunately in an attempt do to some work for you (namely rounding down) when they assembled the table, each number was rounded down separately. 3/4 rounds to 0, 1/2 rounds to 0, and of course 0 + 0 = 0. The original math has been lost because the players don't have to do it and now "Fractional BAB and Saves" has become some alien house rule that confuses people and makes baby Jesus cry. It's not a house rule. It's just leaving the rounding for last so you can see what the actual progressions look like. Read the text that accompanies the table. It's described as a house rule. Browse through sample characters in various books, and you'll see (in cases where it would make a difference to the result) how BAB is calculated. I agree that the underlying idea behind the rule is represented with fractional numbers. But that's not stated anywhere in the core books. You're not told to use the tables if you want to simplify; the tables are all you're given.