Post/Author/DateTime	Post
caeruleus 05-06-05, 11:09 AM	What houserules do you use/would you use when using gestalt characters?
rbrt_Spade 05-06-05, 11:23 AM	WHATS THIS "gestalt characters"
ebaatezu 05-07-05, 12:10 AM	I have seen alot of people writing about gestalt characters but i am not sure what they are either and would love to know :)
Sakaki22 05-07-05, 12:14 AM	Gestalt is a variant in Unearthed Arcana that's essentially two classes in one. You take two classes simultaneously, combining their skills and abilities, taking the best of their HD, BAB, Fort, Ref, Will, and Skill points per level, and gaining spells as if they were in both classes. And when I played Gestalt, the only houserule was "No XP penalties for multiclassing", just to make life easier.
Neff 05-07-05, 03:30 AM	I use fractional BAB and save bonuses, just to simplify things.
Dragonblade275 05-07-05, 05:50 AM	We added a base defense bonus for each class and used armor as damage reduction. Also, some prestige classes are off-limits for gestalts (as in Unearthed Arcana). Curiously, for us, we normally don't use the XP penalty rules for multiclassing, but when we started playing gestalts, we decided to use them. :confused: :confused: :confused:
deduke 05-09-05, 10:03 AM	most important i think is using fractional bab, i mean a wizard 20 || fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 should most definatly not have bab 20. regards deDuke
VampricNecromancer 05-11-05, 04:26 PM	We allow multiple PRCs to be taken at once like so- Wiz-Sor Wiz-Sor Wiz-Sor Wiz-Sor Wiz-Sor Geometer-Incanatrix Geometer-Incanatrix Geometer-Incanatrix Geometer-Incanatrix Geometer-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Incanatrix Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Archmage Inatiate of the Sevenfold Veil-Archmage Wiz-Archmage Wiz-Archmage Wiz-Archmage we also allow "Combo" Prcs like the Mystic Therurge and similar classes, however the maximum caster level cannot exceede your HD unless a PRC would allow this in a non-gesalt Campaign like so- Wiz-Drd Wiz-Drd Wiz-Drd Wiz-Drd Wiz-Drd Arcane Hirophant-Sor Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Arcane Hirophant-Geomancer(sor) Archmage-Geomancer(drd) Archmage-Mystic Therurge Archmage-Mystic Therurge Archmage-Mystic Therurge Archmage-Mystic Therurge for Wiz20/Drd20/Sor14 caster levels
Dragonblade275 05-11-05, 05:17 PM	most important i think is using fractional bab, i mean a wizard 20 || fighter 1/Sorcerer 19 should most definatly not have bab 20.Hmmm... Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think the character in question would have a BAB of 20, anyway. Level 1: Wizard01/Fighter01 = BAB +1 Level 2-20: Wizard20/Sorcerer19 = BAB +9 Total: BAB +10 at 20th Level I treat it just like a multiclass BAB, using the best advancement at each level. If the character does not continue advancing as a fighter, s/he gets the better of the BAB's in the classes s/he' advancing in. So, in the example of a Wizard (20) Fighter (01) Sorceror (19) gestalt... the best possible BAB is 11. And, that's only if you count the 20th level wizard BAB (which I wouldn't because the fighter's 1st level BAB replaces one of the wizard levels in the BAB progression). Even with fractional BAB's (which I don't currently use) the character in question would only have a BAB of 10.5 which rounds down to a 10. So, my conclusion is that the only way to get a BAB of 20 (whether using fractional BAB's or not) when gestalting core classes is to take 20 levels in a class with a good BAB progression. One level in a good BAB progression class does not yield 20 levels worth of good BAB's over the course of 20 levels.
The Human Target 05-12-05, 01:09 AM	So, my conclusion is that the only way to get a BAB of 20 (whether using fractional BAB's or not) when gestalting core classes is to take 20 levels in a class with a good BAB progression. One level in a good BAB progression class does not yield 20 levels worth of good BAB's over the course of 20 levels. You are very right.
mythSSK 05-12-05, 01:21 AM	So, my conclusion is that the only way to get a BAB of 20 (whether using fractional BAB's or not) when gestalting core classes is to take 20 levels in a class with a good BAB progression. One level in a good BAB progression class does not yield 20 levels worth of good BAB's over the course of 20 levels. Actually, the aforementioned wiz20 || fighter1/sorc19 works fine when not using fractional BAB. At first level, BAB is +1 (from fighter) At second level, BAB is +2 (wizard gets +1 BAB at level 2) At third level, BAB is +3 (sorcerer level 2 gives +1 BAB) At fourth level, BAB is +4 (level 4 in the wizard class gives +1 BAB) And so on, and so forth.
jaerad 05-12-05, 02:00 AM	Actually, the aforementioned wiz20 || fighter1/sorc19 works fine when not using fractional BAB. At first level, BAB is +1 (from fighter) At second level, BAB is +2 (wizard gets +1 BAB at level 2) At third level, BAB is +3 (sorcerer level 2 gives +1 BAB) At fourth level, BAB is +4 (level 4 in the wizard class gives +1 BAB) And so on, and so forth. Ahhh, I get it. I was noticnig something similar to this with saves. If you take a new class that has a good progression (like, any class) you gain a +2 save. This allows for some pretty high base saves, even without dipping extensively. I don't have UA on me, but I read it a few times, is there already a nerf for this?
mythSSK 05-12-05, 04:30 AM	Yeah, the fractional save bonuses help with it. I'm currently designing a Gestalt character at the moment, and making sure to place levels in different classes where they have maximum effect, as my DM doesn't like fractional BAB and saves. Weeee!
Ongorth 05-12-05, 08:05 AM	Wow that was wierd. I read the thread title and thought it said, "Gestalt Housecats." Needless to say, when I read the thread it wasn't nearly as cool as I had hoped. But, than I thought, Gestalt house cats WOULD be a good rule! I always thought it would be great to have a pet that combined the sensitivity of a Tabby with the self-assured aire of a Siamese. Plus, it fits in great as the familiar for your Gestalt Wizard/Bard.
guardiandashi 05-12-05, 08:00 PM	my brother was trying to make a char for a gesalt campaign and was trying to figure out exactly what his bab and saves would be. the idea he told me was: 20 monk 10 fighter 10 sorc with the following progression: mk1 f1 mk2 s1 mk3 f2 mk4 s2 mk5 f3 mk6 s3 mk7 f4 mk8 s4 mk9 f5 mk10 s5 etc etc now I looked at the explanation and it looked to me like he should end up with BAB 20 and good fort poor ref good wis saves but the dm was claiming he would end up with 15 bab @ 20 because monk gets that, AND the fighter and sorc average out to that also which isn't exactly the way it reads.
caeruleus 05-12-05, 08:20 PM	Here's an idea I had. Think of each regular class combo as a single gestalt class. When you gain a level, you can add a level of any gestalt class, as with the regular multiclassing rules. However, you can't use the same regular class in more than one of your gestalt classes. For example, let's say you have 5 levels of fighter-rogue. If you want to have a level of fighter, you must also take a level of rogue. You can't take fighter-wizard, or rogue-cleric, say. But you can take anything else, such as wizard-sorcerer, paladin-ranger, or barbarian-bard. This would prevent people from having a full BAB progression with only one level of fighter and the rest sorcerer and wizard. And that's a good thing, if you ask me.
Dragonblade275 05-12-05, 08:29 PM	Actually, the aforementioned wiz20 || fighter1/sorc19 works fine when not using fractional BAB. At first level, BAB is +1 (from fighter) At second level, BAB is +2 (wizard gets +1 BAB at level 2) At third level, BAB is +3 (sorcerer level 2 gives +1 BAB) At fourth level, BAB is +4 (level 4 in the wizard class gives +1 BAB) And so on, and so forth.Quite bizarre... :confused: No, gestalt combos with poor BAB progressions over 19 levels should ever yield a BAB of +19 (regardless of whether you use fractional bases or not). If you count it that way (and I wouldn't), even fractional bases it would seem to me to add up very high. Here's a sample of bad gestalt math using fractional bases: 01st: ftr01/wiz01 = +1 (ftr01) 02nd: ftr01||wiz02/sor01 = +1 (wiz02) = Total BAB +2 03rd: ftr01||wiz03/sor02 = +1 (sor02) = Total BAB +3 04th: ftr01||wiz04/sor03 = +1 (wiz04) = Total BAB +4 05th: ftr01||wiz05/sor04 = +1 (sor04) = Total BAB +5 06th: ftr01||wiz06/sor05 = +1 (wiz06) = Total BAB +6 Very close to the problem you pose concerning a gestalt ftr01||wiz20/sor19. But, very wrong and very bad gestalt math in my opinion. (Not that I'm a math wiz, mind you...) But, adding fractional bases in the manner that you suggest adding standard bases actually gives the same result that you're trying to solve by using fractional bases. Figuring Multiclass Gestalts BAB's & Saves can be tricky business. You have to be careful not to give double credit for what the character has already gotten. At ftr02/wiz01 the gestalt has already gotten credit for the half point from wiz01. Giving the character a full point of BAB at ftr01|/wiz02/sor01 is double dipping. Even going with base progressions, this character's BAB would still be +1 at this point. Wiz01 is already factored into the character's first level. Giving it to the PC again is getting something twice that was only paid for once. The problem is probably stemming from what I consider to be the poor placement of the Fractional Base Bonuses Sidebar in Unearthed Arcana. It really has little or nothing to do with gestalts. Just multiclassing in general. Please, note the following text from the 5th paragraph:This variant is ideal for campaigns featuring many multiclass characters, since it results in their having slightly higher base save and base attack bonuses than in a standard game. If you're using fractional bases and coming up with lower base saves and base attacks than you think you would with the regular method, your either doing one or both methods wrong when you're figuring BAB's and/or saves for multiclass characters (gestalt or otherwise). Thank you and I hope this helps. :behold: :behold: :behold:
Worguron 05-12-05, 08:31 PM	Read the sidebar concerning Fractional Base Bonuses. It is a variant rule to keep characters who don't have 20 levels in a High BAB class from having 20 BAB. By the Fractional Base Bonuses rule, a 20 Monk + 10 Fighter/10 Sorceror would have 15 BAB, and the saves of a 20th level monk (which are all good, so I don't know where you got the low Ref save from). On a side note, such a character would have a mad case of MAD (pun intended). As a Monk it would depend on Dex, Wis, Con, and Str. Fighter also relies on Str, Con, and Dex. Sorceror relies on Cha. So your only "dump" stat would be Int, but Int is never good to dump.
Dragonblade275 05-12-05, 08:38 PM	Ahhh, I get it. I was noticnig something similar to this with saves. If you take a new class that has a good progression (like, any class) you gain a +2 save. This allows for some pretty high base saves, even without dipping extensively. I don't have UA on me, but I read it a few times, is there already a nerf for this? There would be a problem with saves if used as written in UA. Take FORT saves, for example: 01: ftr01/wiz01 = +2 (from ftr) 02: ftr||wiz02/clr01 = +2 (from clr) and (+2 from ftr) = Total FORT +4 03: ftr||wiz03/clr01||bbn01 = +2 (from bbn) +4 (above) = Total +6 Some of us have houseruled that you can only get the +2 bump once on a saving throw. Otherwise, someone might get a very high base save (for what I consider to be a heavy price--extreme gestalt multiclassing). I should note that this same problem occurs when using non-gestalt characters and that fractional bases will result in numbers equal or higher to this, as well.
Dragonblade275 05-12-05, 08:46 PM	my brother was trying to make a char for a gesalt campaign and was trying to figure out exactly what his bab and saves would be. the idea he told me was: 20 monk 10 fighter 10 sorc with the following progression: mk1 f1 mk2 s1 mk3 f2 mk4 s2 mk5 f3 mk6 s3 mk7 f4 mk8 s4 mk9 f5 mk10 s5 etc etc now I looked at the explanation and it looked to me like he should end up with BAB 20 and good fort poor ref good wis saves but the dm was claiming he would end up with 15 bab @ 20 because monk gets that, AND the fighter and sorc average out to that also which isn't exactly the way it reads. If I'm looking at this right, a Monk20||ftr10/sor10 would have a BAB of +17 and good saves in all categories. The fighter is the best BAB for 10 levels giving a +10 and the Monk is better at everything else overall and better at BAB than the Sorcerer for 10 levels. So the Monk's +7 BAB for the ten levels that are gestalted with sorcerer adds with the +10 from Fighter10 for a total of 17 with +12 in all saves.
Dragonblade275 05-12-05, 08:55 PM	Read the sidebar concerning Fractional Base Bonuses. It is a variant rule to keep characters who don't have 20 levels in a High BAB class from having 20 BAB.Not so, see paragraph 5 in the sidebar on fractional base progressions.This variant is ideal for campaigns featuring many multiclass characters, since it results in their having slightly higher base save and base attack bonuses than in a standard game.If you're using fractional bases and coming up with lower base saves and base attacks than you think you would with the regular method, your either doing one or both methods wrong when you're figuring BAB's and/or saves for multiclass characters (gestalt or otherwise). By the Fractional Base Bonuses rule, a 20 Monk + 10 Fighter/10 Sorceror would have 15 BAB, and the saves of a 20th level monk (which are all good, so I don't know where you got the low Ref save from).Actually, with fractional bases, a mnk20||ftr10/sor10 would have a +17.5 BAB. +10 for the ftr10 and +7.5 for the remaining ten levels of gestalt mnk/sor. To get +15 you have to take the sorcerer's BAB progression for 10 levels instead of the monk's (which would be taking the worst of the two progressions instead of the best--monks are better at BAB than sorcerers).
Arterion 05-14-05, 01:59 AM	Use the rules for second edition multiclassing. ^_^ It's really that simple. Slit your XP between two or three classes, and take the better features of the two at each level.
Xaraan 05-14-05, 09:38 AM	We pick a core class, pretty much like a favored class, but it's not dependant on race, the player just picks it. Now that class has to always be one of the two choices when you advance. So if you have a 15th level pc, he is 15th in your core class and then the other 15 levels can be whatever. We usually make some prestige classes off limits and also require you take at least 3 levels of any class or PrC you dip into. We also use fractional BAB. And all pc's kinda have to pass a DM approval more so than normal just to fend off too much abuse. But we love gestalt, it lets you get all sorts of cool feats and powers, etc. without having to be 20th level before you get them. In which case half of them are no longer useful because the power level of the game has changed. Plus the characters dont have 200 hps and perfect saves, etc.
jaerad 05-17-05, 11:17 PM	http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=2919289#post2919289
lostone 05-18-05, 08:06 AM	The way I see gestalt (and the way I keep things balanced) is this: You keep the sides seperate: Fighter 1/Rogue 1 Fighter 2/Rogue 2 Fighter 3/Rogue 3 Fighter 4/Rogue 4 Fighter 5/Rogue 5 Fighter 6/Rogue 6 Fighter 7/Rogue 7 Fighter 8/Rogue 8 Fighter 9/Rogue 9 Fighter 10/Rogue 10 Fighter 11/Dervish 1 Fighter 12/Dervish 2 Fighter 13/Dervish 3 Fighter 14/Dervish 4 Fighter 15/Dervish 5 Fighter 16/Dervish 6 Fighter 17/Dervish 7 Fighter 18/Dervish 8 Fighter 19/Dervish 9 Fighter 20/Dervish 10 So at level 15 you would figure what a Fighter 15 has for saves, BAB, then seperately figure what a Rogue 10 Dervish 5 has for saves and BAB and take the highest BAB (Fighter), highest Fort (Fighter), highest Ref (Rogue/Dervish), and highest Will (guessing Rogue/Dervish). You don't get the staggering classes for best BAB or Saves this way. It seems the easiest to me, I never liked figuring fractional BAB and saves, but in the end it probably ends up being about the same. I just plug the BAB and saves into Excel one time for complex dipping builds and print it out for easy reference when I level up.
VampricNecromancer 05-18-05, 03:38 PM	quoting lostone's post above that is how we figure out Saves/BAB/ect... it's the only way that wouldn't give us headaches AND was balanced
Dragonblade275 05-18-05, 06:17 PM	You keep the sides seperateExactly! Ftr01/Wiz01 = BAB +1 Wiz02/Sor01 is a new side, really with a +0.5 BAB per level. The best BAB that any gestalt could have (using core classes) is +20 at 20th level. Anything higher is incorrectly calculated. Otherwise, why hasn't some enterprising player built a gestalt with a +60 BAB at 20th level?
Voila! 05-20-05, 09:37 PM	Can anyone answer my question? I try this all over the place, but no one bothers to reveal the truth. Someone here, please, I beg of you, let it out, and help me learn how it works. The question: in a gestalt game, may you advance in a monster class and a regular class simultaneously?
caeruleus 05-20-05, 10:53 PM	Can anyone answer my question? I try this all over the place, but no one bothers to reveal the truth. Someone here, please, I beg of you, let it out, and help me learn how it works. The question: in a gestalt game, may you advance in a monster class and a regular class simultaneously? No one has revealed the truth because there is simply no truth of the matter. The gestalt rules only appear in UA, and they don't say anything about monster classes. Some allow it, others only allow gestalting (to make it a verb) racial HD with class levels, but not LA. Or you may not allow it at all. Figure out what works for you. Truth is, after all, only what we make up.
Worguron 05-21-05, 03:27 AM	Actually, with fractional bases, a mnk20||ftr10/sor10 would have a +17.5 BAB. +10 for the ftr10 and +7.5 for the remaining ten levels of gestalt mnk/sor. To get +15 you have to take the sorcerer's BAB progression for 10 levels instead of the monk's (which would be taking the worst of the two progressions instead of the best--monks are better at BAB than sorcerers). Yeah, I was typing that after 42 hours without sleep, I did get the "your BAB wouldn't be 20" point across though.
jaerad 05-22-05, 01:20 AM	No one has revealed the truth because there is simply no truth of the matter. The gestalt rules only appear in UA, and they don't say anything about monster classes. Some allow it, others only allow gestalting (to make it a verb) racial HD with class levels, but not LA. Or you may not allow it at all. Figure out what works for you. Truth is, after all, only what we make up. Savage Progressions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), and I think Savage Species as well, has rules for converting LA into templated levels. Essentially, you take a level that has no HD, BAB, Saves, etc - only a % of the racial abilities and CR +s. But basically, Caeruleus is right. It's not addressed within UA, so it's pretty much houeruling. For meh, unless you template it away (or buy it off in other manners, such as those given in UA) - it functions the same as a normal LA. Takes more xp, start with more money/equip, etc.
lostone 05-22-05, 07:24 AM	Can anyone answer my question? I try this all over the place, but no one bothers to reveal the truth. Someone here, please, I beg of you, let it out, and help me learn how it works. The question: in a gestalt game, may you advance in a monster class and a regular class simultaneously?As stated previously, this is not covered in the Gestalt rules. Personally I wouldn't allow it just to keep things simple. Gestalt is powerful enough without throwing monstrous races into the mix. :D
Worguron 05-22-05, 10:54 PM	My DM plays that LA takes up both sides of the Gestalt, and Racial HD take up only one side. He also plays with a rule that racial HD must be paired up with a class that makes sense with the race. Lycanthropes, Thri-Kreen, and most other "wild races" have to take levels of Ranger.
caeruleus 05-22-05, 11:40 PM	It's not addressed within UA, so it's pretty much houeruling. Yup. Remember that UA is full of variants to the rules, and as variants, they're even less firm than the core rules (which aren't carved in stone either, as UA proves).
Telaria 05-26-05, 03:35 AM	The group I play in nearly always plays gestalt, very heavily houseruled. However, the rule specifically relevant to gestalt, and that I quite like, are to bar having two casting classes of the same kind at once, so you don't get the over the top every-spell-in-all-the-books Wizard/Sorceror like suggested in UA. So, basically: You can't take 2 divine magic classes at once. You can't take 2 arcane magic classes at once. You can't take two psionic manifesting classes at once. We do also (and I know this will probably generate accusations of overpowering, although gestalt alone does that) grant the SP from both classes, as we use skills a lot, and some of us, including me, prefer skill-focused characters. Fractional BABs and saves were toyed with for awhile, but most of us just found the math too bothersome to keep up with, and it's effectively been dropped.
jaerad 05-27-05, 12:39 AM	Has anyone noticed yet that the fix for >+20 BAB also limits you to a maximum of +12 to saves? You follow progressions, not numbers in columns. So you never get that +2 boost again. Which is not the way people seem to play regularly (non-Gestalt). This leaves us in a delicate situation. I tried asking on another thread, but no one seems to know; Are save DCs balanced with respect to a max +12 save, or are the balanced knowing that most people multiclass and therefore gain a few +2 boosts? If they are balanced considering most characters to have a +15 or so (before stat mods, magic, etc) - then Gestalt characters are actually weaker than standard classes.
Tenzhi 05-27-05, 03:58 AM	Actually, the aforementioned wiz20 || fighter1/sorc19 works fine when not using fractional BAB. At first level, BAB is +1 (from fighter) At second level, BAB is +2 (wizard gets +1 BAB at level 2) At third level, BAB is +3 (sorcerer level 2 gives +1 BAB) At fourth level, BAB is +4 (level 4 in the wizard class gives +1 BAB) It doesn't really work that way, as BAB progressions are not really accrued bonuses. BAB progressions are derived from HD. The fighter progression is equal to HD, the cleric progression is equal to 3/4 HD, and the wizard progression is equal to 1/2 HD. Thus, with the aforementioned gestalt you would be choosing the better progression between the Sorceror/Wizard while gestalting them rather than the better accrued bonus. As their progressions are the same, it wouldn't matter which you chose as either way you'd have additional BAB equal to 19/2 rounded down or +9. For your first level you used the fighter progression which gave you a +1 BAB. Ergo your total BAB is +10. As for my house rules: I use the Level-Independent XP award system and the players have to gain XP for each class in the gestalt seperately. I also allow three-class gestalts. The classes are chosen at creation and there's no changing from that point - the exception being that you can take levels in one PrC (of the non-multi-class substitute variety) instead of your gestalt classes at the same XP cost as levelling your gestalt classes. In some cases a PrC may be taken earlier than before, but taking a PrC is also a great deal more costly for a gestalt. There are limits on which classes you can choose for gestalt purposes. The classes are divided into four categories: Fighters (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger), Experts (Bard, Monk, Rogue), Divine Casters (Cleric, Druid), and Arcane Casters (Wizard, Sorceror). A gestalt may be created from any two classes from different categories. A race's favoured class may be added to any combination of classes, and humans (or any race whose favoured class is Any) may combine any three classes together.
dragonman407 05-27-05, 11:09 PM	Just for balance, we choose one class to stay in for the entire campaign. you get HP, BAB, saves, etc. from this class only. All the other class does is give you its skilz/abilities. for example: a wiz 1/fighter 1 would give you wiz's HP, BAB, etc., and the fighter would give his bonus feats.
Edymnion 05-28-05, 12:30 AM	I usually houserule that Gestalt characters have to take their second class in one of the NPC classes like warrior or expert.