Gestalt instead of multiclassing -> LA? XP penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt instead of multiclassing -> LA? XP penalty? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ertai Planeswalker
06-13-07, 07:00 AM I'm contemplating wether gestalt could replace standard multiclassing, but with a level adjustment. I'm just wondering, how high should that level adjustment be? At levels 1-5, +1 seems fair. At levels 6-15, +2 seems fair. At levels 16-20, +3 seems fair. Now of course you could rule that when acquiring 6th and 16th character level, the character is set back to 15.000/120.000 xp respectively, and gains an additional LA instead of a level, but it seems clunky.

An alternative is to give the character a 25% XP penalty, so they level up more slowly than the rest of the party. It postpones the first setback 2 levels, but works more cleanly.

XP Normal Level Gestalt Level
1000 2 1 (-1)
3000 3 2 (-1)
6000 4 3 (-1)
10000 5 4 (-1)
15000 6 5 (-1)
21000 7 6 (-1)
28000 8 7 (-1)
36000 9 7 (-2)
45000 10 8 (-2)
55000 11 9 (-2)
66000 12 10 (-2)
78000 13 11 (-2)
91000 14 12 (-2)
105000 15 13 (-2)
120000 16 13 (-3)
136000 17 14 (-3)
153000 18 15 (-3)
171000 19 16 (-3)
190000 20 17 (-3)

So what do you think, would this be balanced or not?
ppirilla
06-13-07, 09:58 PM I've been thinking of something like this for quite a while, but never really had the time or energy to put the work in to try to balance it.

I'm pretty sure that an XP penalty for getting into the multi-class, and a constant +1 or +2 LA would work, but that's just a gut feeling.
Monoculus
06-15-07, 12:23 AM Level 1-5: +1 LA

Level 6-15: +1.5 LA

Level 16-20: +2 LA

I think that would work out much better. A full +1 increase every 5 levels really is a lot. And since Gestalts are not quite considered a 2nd level character, I think the 0.5 LA works well.
Archangel62
06-15-07, 12:46 AM The way I would do it is a 50% XP increase. This way they have to earn more but since few of the prestige classes are truly heavily synergistic it shouldn't be a huge issue.
Vaelan
06-15-07, 02:35 AM I use a very similar system. I bump the LAs up a bit higher though, since LAs as low as +2 harken back to second edition multiclassing which ended up being just plain better than... being Human.

My LAs range from +1 to +4, though I adjust them on a case-by-case basis.
trapspringer
06-15-07, 03:17 PM I like it, but I think you need a sharper curve on the LA.

At low levels, near-nothing is good (+1 bein' the closest you can get to that). At Mid to Upper levels I'm not so sure +2 and +3 is sufficient.

The .75 experience thing looks about right to me, though.
Zat
06-16-07, 01:33 AM I've always opporated on the assumption that since a Gestalt character has 1.5 classes their ECL should be class level times 1.5. I've also modified the experience they have to gain accordingly. So far I haven't had any problems with it and it fixes the problems that come with fixed adjustments.
GAMBLE_d13
06-16-07, 03:38 AM I've always opporated on the assumption that since a Gestalt character has 1.5 classes their ECL should be class level times 1.5. I've also modified the experience they have to gain accordingly. So far I haven't had any problems with it and it fixes the problems that come with fixed adjustments.

That's a LA of +7 at 13th level? Is Gestalt really that powerful? (This isn't Rhetorical, I trully am asking because I really don't know, I haven't played Gestalt yet, tho it is on my to do list).

Cheers.
Zat
06-16-07, 04:39 AM Think about it, at 13 level gestalt you can have the spell progression of a wizard and a cleric, flat out. Or be a sorcerer monk who can beef himself out to the point where beating him will require something that high. The only sort they get is on hit points, and even that's not enough considering the AC's and some saves they can muster out of it. Plus the fact that you can switch out your gestalted classes at any time makes them able to generalize and specialize for damn near everything. The increased experience required of them it slows down their progression, thus adding a leveler to those people who aren't gestalted. This is not to discount or discourage their use in any way, I love the mechanic and have a few characters who need it to make their stories good. I'm just saying that it's dangerous and needs to be handled acordingly.
Ertai Planeswalker
06-16-07, 06:09 PM There's no way a level 13 gestalt is +7 LA, no fkn way.

Quasi Deity is established as a +5LA template. Saint is a +2 LA template. In no way is a level 13 gestalt character equally powefull as a level 13 quasi-deity saint. No fkn way.

Don't forget MAD. That sorcerer/monk you speak of needs all ability scores except intelligence to be able to do what you want it to do. That's not to say that some combinations of classes are more powerfull than others, but an LA equal to half their level is straight out ridiculous.
trapspringer
06-16-07, 06:29 PM +1
Zat
06-16-07, 06:38 PM There's no way a level 13 gestalt is +7 LA, no fkn way.

Quasi Deity is established as a +5LA template. Saint is a +2 LA template. In no way is a level 13 gestalt character equally powefull as a level 13 quasi-deity saint. No fkn way.

Don't forget MAD. That sorcerer/monk you speak of needs all ability scores except intelligence to be able to do what you want it to do. That's not to say that some combinations of classes are more powerfull than others, but an LA equal to half their level is straight out ridiculous.

My playtests indicate that a Gestalt character can and will take out things that are of a much higher challenge rating. I had a 9th level Gestalt Sorcerer Mod(7.02 from here on the boards)/Inate Caster (home build and slightly over balanced) take out a black dragon of at least huge size (I never found out how old it was) in two rounds. Granted I put a line of sonic in his ear, but still. The raw power behind the mechanic warrents such an adjust. And like I said, it's more of an overall modification. They're treated as having that higher EL, and their experience progression is altered as well so they don't actually take level penalties. Rebuild the class system and you have to rebuild the XP system as well.
trapspringer
06-16-07, 07:45 PM That's anecdotal evidence, and as such doesn't hold a lot of sway. Not only that, but it doesn't feature any class that isn't home-brew. Further, you don't even know the specifics of what it is you did. For all you know, the DM just said, "Wow! You killed it!" because he felt sorry for your character.

It's quite possibly the single weakest piece of evidence I've ever seen presented with a straight face on these boards.
Zat
06-16-07, 09:47 PM Well, I guess you have a point. At the time I didn't realize that. I do know however that the kill was legit, as the DM was rather sad.

My point is I've never had a problem with the XP alteration I've made. I've used it before and it's never given me problems. I really don't know how to give you anything but circumstantial evidence, as that's really all the game is based on. I'm not saying you have to use it, the whole thing is varient to begin with, I'm just saying that this is what's worked best for myself and my players.
trapspringer
06-17-07, 11:35 AM Fair enough.
Vaelan
06-18-07, 01:47 AM Dual spellcasters are three levels behind. Dual caster gestalts should maintain that difference until high levels.
Zat
06-18-07, 02:49 AM I've finally managed to come up with a proper defense. the d20 system is build on exponential progression rather than linear progression. The problem with gestalting is that it can't be offered up with an LA for two reasons. The first is that LA's are a racial trait. By applying an LA you designate that said race is more powerful, but also slower in their ability to progress across classes, thus making it a separate function. The second is that classes fundamentally do not opperate on block functions but rather on exponential ones, as previously stated. This then brings us back to my original argument that gestalts are a class and a half, which they infact are. However, since it is an alteration to the class system rather than the race system then a consistant modifier has to be applied rather than a static one. Thus you can either treat a gestalt character's EL as 1.5 times it's class level or multiply the XP table by 1.5 to garner a more apporpriate path for the new class construction. I do both simply because it's easier for me to calculate CR's and XP per encounter, but that's just me. And to be clear, no EL is equal to, or even reletively equivelent to it's matching class level due to lack of hit points and skill points, among other things. What you miss is that this is not what gives the EL's 'balance', it is rather the EL's ability to out do a class in a sticky situation. That's really it. In the end it is of course the DM's choice as to how gestalting is handled, but I can see no reason why the 1.5 system is a bad one.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ertai Planeswalker 06-13-07, 07:00 AM	I'm contemplating wether gestalt could replace standard multiclassing, but with a level adjustment. I'm just wondering, how high should that level adjustment be? At levels 1-5, +1 seems fair. At levels 6-15, +2 seems fair. At levels 16-20, +3 seems fair. Now of course you could rule that when acquiring 6th and 16th character level, the character is set back to 15.000/120.000 xp respectively, and gains an additional LA instead of a level, but it seems clunky. An alternative is to give the character a 25% XP penalty, so they level up more slowly than the rest of the party. It postpones the first setback 2 levels, but works more cleanly. XP Normal Level Gestalt Level 1000 2 1 (-1) 3000 3 2 (-1) 6000 4 3 (-1) 10000 5 4 (-1) 15000 6 5 (-1) 21000 7 6 (-1) 28000 8 7 (-1) 36000 9 7 (-2) 45000 10 8 (-2) 55000 11 9 (-2) 66000 12 10 (-2) 78000 13 11 (-2) 91000 14 12 (-2) 105000 15 13 (-2) 120000 16 13 (-3) 136000 17 14 (-3) 153000 18 15 (-3) 171000 19 16 (-3) 190000 20 17 (-3) So what do you think, would this be balanced or not?
ppirilla 06-13-07, 09:58 PM	I've been thinking of something like this for quite a while, but never really had the time or energy to put the work in to try to balance it. I'm pretty sure that an XP penalty for getting into the multi-class, and a constant +1 or +2 LA would work, but that's just a gut feeling.
Monoculus 06-15-07, 12:23 AM	Level 1-5: +1 LA Level 6-15: +1.5 LA Level 16-20: +2 LA I think that would work out much better. A full +1 increase every 5 levels really is a lot. And since Gestalts are not quite considered a 2nd level character, I think the 0.5 LA works well.
Archangel62 06-15-07, 12:46 AM	The way I would do it is a 50% XP increase. This way they have to earn more but since few of the prestige classes are truly heavily synergistic it shouldn't be a huge issue.
Vaelan 06-15-07, 02:35 AM	I use a very similar system. I bump the LAs up a bit higher though, since LAs as low as +2 harken back to second edition multiclassing which ended up being just plain better than... being Human. My LAs range from +1 to +4, though I adjust them on a case-by-case basis.
trapspringer 06-15-07, 03:17 PM	I like it, but I think you need a sharper curve on the LA. At low levels, near-nothing is good (+1 bein' the closest you can get to that). At Mid to Upper levels I'm not so sure +2 and +3 is sufficient. The .75 experience thing looks about right to me, though.
Zat 06-16-07, 01:33 AM	I've always opporated on the assumption that since a Gestalt character has 1.5 classes their ECL should be class level times 1.5. I've also modified the experience they have to gain accordingly. So far I haven't had any problems with it and it fixes the problems that come with fixed adjustments.
GAMBLE_d13 06-16-07, 03:38 AM	I've always opporated on the assumption that since a Gestalt character has 1.5 classes their ECL should be class level times 1.5. I've also modified the experience they have to gain accordingly. So far I haven't had any problems with it and it fixes the problems that come with fixed adjustments. That's a LA of +7 at 13th level? Is Gestalt really that powerful? (This isn't Rhetorical, I trully am asking because I really don't know, I haven't played Gestalt yet, tho it is on my to do list). Cheers.
Zat 06-16-07, 04:39 AM	Think about it, at 13 level gestalt you can have the spell progression of a wizard and a cleric, flat out. Or be a sorcerer monk who can beef himself out to the point where beating him will require something that high. The only sort they get is on hit points, and even that's not enough considering the AC's and some saves they can muster out of it. Plus the fact that you can switch out your gestalted classes at any time makes them able to generalize and specialize for damn near everything. The increased experience required of them it slows down their progression, thus adding a leveler to those people who aren't gestalted. This is not to discount or discourage their use in any way, I love the mechanic and have a few characters who need it to make their stories good. I'm just saying that it's dangerous and needs to be handled acordingly.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-16-07, 06:09 PM	There's no way a level 13 gestalt is +7 LA, no fkn way. Quasi Deity is established as a +5LA template. Saint is a +2 LA template. In no way is a level 13 gestalt character equally powefull as a level 13 quasi-deity saint. No fkn way. Don't forget MAD. That sorcerer/monk you speak of needs all ability scores except intelligence to be able to do what you want it to do. That's not to say that some combinations of classes are more powerfull than others, but an LA equal to half their level is straight out ridiculous.
trapspringer 06-16-07, 06:29 PM	+1
Zat 06-16-07, 06:38 PM	There's no way a level 13 gestalt is +7 LA, no fkn way. Quasi Deity is established as a +5LA template. Saint is a +2 LA template. In no way is a level 13 gestalt character equally powefull as a level 13 quasi-deity saint. No fkn way. Don't forget MAD. That sorcerer/monk you speak of needs all ability scores except intelligence to be able to do what you want it to do. That's not to say that some combinations of classes are more powerfull than others, but an LA equal to half their level is straight out ridiculous. My playtests indicate that a Gestalt character can and will take out things that are of a much higher challenge rating. I had a 9th level Gestalt Sorcerer Mod(7.02 from here on the boards)/Inate Caster (home build and slightly over balanced) take out a black dragon of at least huge size (I never found out how old it was) in two rounds. Granted I put a line of sonic in his ear, but still. The raw power behind the mechanic warrents such an adjust. And like I said, it's more of an overall modification. They're treated as having that higher EL, and their experience progression is altered as well so they don't actually take level penalties. Rebuild the class system and you have to rebuild the XP system as well.
trapspringer 06-16-07, 07:45 PM	That's anecdotal evidence, and as such doesn't hold a lot of sway. Not only that, but it doesn't feature any class that isn't home-brew. Further, you don't even know the specifics of what it is you did. For all you know, the DM just said, "Wow! You killed it!" because he felt sorry for your character. It's quite possibly the single weakest piece of evidence I've ever seen presented with a straight face on these boards.
Zat 06-16-07, 09:47 PM	Well, I guess you have a point. At the time I didn't realize that. I do know however that the kill was legit, as the DM was rather sad. My point is I've never had a problem with the XP alteration I've made. I've used it before and it's never given me problems. I really don't know how to give you anything but circumstantial evidence, as that's really all the game is based on. I'm not saying you have to use it, the whole thing is varient to begin with, I'm just saying that this is what's worked best for myself and my players.
trapspringer 06-17-07, 11:35 AM	Fair enough.
Vaelan 06-18-07, 01:47 AM	Dual spellcasters are three levels behind. Dual caster gestalts should maintain that difference until high levels.
Zat 06-18-07, 02:49 AM	I've finally managed to come up with a proper defense. the d20 system is build on exponential progression rather than linear progression. The problem with gestalting is that it can't be offered up with an LA for two reasons. The first is that LA's are a racial trait. By applying an LA you designate that said race is more powerful, but also slower in their ability to progress across classes, thus making it a separate function. The second is that classes fundamentally do not opperate on block functions but rather on exponential ones, as previously stated. This then brings us back to my original argument that gestalts are a class and a half, which they infact are. However, since it is an alteration to the class system rather than the race system then a consistant modifier has to be applied rather than a static one. Thus you can either treat a gestalt character's EL as 1.5 times it's class level or multiply the XP table by 1.5 to garner a more apporpriate path for the new class construction. I do both simply because it's easier for me to calculate CR's and XP per encounter, but that's just me. And to be clear, no EL is equal to, or even reletively equivelent to it's matching class level due to lack of hit points and skill points, among other things. What you miss is that this is not what gives the EL's 'balance', it is rather the EL's ability to out do a class in a sticky situation. That's really it. In the end it is of course the DM's choice as to how gestalting is handled, but I can see no reason why the 1.5 system is a bad one.