Gestalt monsters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt monsters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MushroomSpore
09-03-04, 05:48 PM I'm in the process of creating a campaign world, using Gestalt for all PCs and NPCs and whatnot. But the thing is, a good number of the important NPCs *are* monsters. And Gestalt certainly would make them stand out more as individuals-this mind flayer is a truly advanced telepath, the ogres fight like berserkers, one centaur is a master tracker while another casts spells, that sort of thing.

So what do you guys think? If, say, a CR 7 monster is gestalt-ified with seven levels of a class (some monsters would retain some monster HD anyway, others would gain a couple, depending on if they had more or less than seven), is it then back to being a CR 7 monster against a gestalt party?

Granted, some combinations would be sicker than others, like the aforementioned ogre/barbarians. But then this world is *supposed* to be dangerous, kind of a Dark Ages thing going on. :)
Gilean
09-05-04, 06:22 AM I give important monsters enough HD so their CR and HD match each other. Then Gestalt them. (Just like building savage progressions).
Kiri Sittori
09-05-04, 01:04 PM I'm in the process of creating a campaign world, using Gestalt for all PCs and NPCs and whatnot. But the thing is, a good number of the important NPCs *are* monsters. And Gestalt certainly would make them stand out more as individuals-this mind flayer is a truly advanced telepath, the ogres fight like berserkers, one centaur is a master tracker while another casts spells, that sort of thing.

So what do you guys think? If, say, a CR 7 monster is gestalt-ified with seven levels of a class (some monsters would retain some monster HD anyway, others would gain a couple, depending on if they had more or less than seven), is it then back to being a CR 7 monster against a gestalt party?

Granted, some combinations would be sicker than others, like the aforementioned ogre/barbarians. But then this world is *supposed* to be dangerous, kind of a Dark Ages thing going on. :)

Try play testing a couple examples.

Easy: Ogre/berserker: Minimally, an ogre fighter would be L2 (since ogres are CR2.)

Moderate: Efreeti/monk. This will be at least level 8.

Hard: Adult Blue Dragon / sorceror. This bad boy will be level 14.

Epic-approved: Ancient Red Dragon / fighter. Level 23, baby.

And do remember, that once you hit gestalt CR/class level, you can either gestalt racial advancements, or use gestalt class combinations... so that Efreeti could wind up like this:

Efreeti 8 / Monk 20 / Sorceror 12, as a gCR 20.

One question, though... how would you gestalt Golems?
darczero
10-02-04, 09:39 PM hmmm... Monsters with HD equal to CR (without increasing CR of course) and class levels equal to HD?

BRILLIANT!!!!

Thank you for that idea, I like it.

I'll use it to further my own ends.
SMW
10-03-04, 08:58 PM Well, actually.

Since monsters HD count as levels, I would simply count their racial HD as one class... and give them another class equally to their HD. So say.. an ogre, who has 4 hit dice, would also automatically have 4 class levels. Any further advancement would make it 5 levels in one class, and 1 in another.. and 4 racial hit dice.. as an example, anyway.
Lina_Inverse
10-03-04, 09:13 PM Well, actually.

Since monsters HD count as levels, I would simply count their racial HD as one class... and give them another class equally to their HD. So say.. an ogre, who has 4 hit dice, would also automatically have 4 class levels. Any further advancement would make it 5 levels in one class, and 1 in another.. and 4 racial hit dice.. as an example, anyway.

but 48hitdie dragon != CR 48.48 hitdie PC = CR48.hence the changed hitdice to CR concept,it will basiclly balence out only dragons should cause major problems as most monster dice arent good.
Baron Rod
10-12-04, 05:06 AM One question, though... how would you gestalt Golems?

Easy now that Eberron is here. Make them a Warforged type/Golem. Or just say that whoever created the Golem used the create intellegent item chart from the DMG. Now the Golem has has a Int score and can be classed using he Gestalt system.

Baron Rod

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MushroomSpore 09-03-04, 05:48 PM	I'm in the process of creating a campaign world, using Gestalt for all PCs and NPCs and whatnot. But the thing is, a good number of the important NPCs are monsters. And Gestalt certainly would make them stand out more as individuals-this mind flayer is a truly advanced telepath, the ogres fight like berserkers, one centaur is a master tracker while another casts spells, that sort of thing. So what do you guys think? If, say, a CR 7 monster is gestalt-ified with seven levels of a class (some monsters would retain some monster HD anyway, others would gain a couple, depending on if they had more or less than seven), is it then back to being a CR 7 monster against a gestalt party? Granted, some combinations would be sicker than others, like the aforementioned ogre/barbarians. But then this world is supposed to be dangerous, kind of a Dark Ages thing going on. :)
Gilean 09-05-04, 06:22 AM	I give important monsters enough HD so their CR and HD match each other. Then Gestalt them. (Just like building savage progressions).
Kiri Sittori 09-05-04, 01:04 PM	I'm in the process of creating a campaign world, using Gestalt for all PCs and NPCs and whatnot. But the thing is, a good number of the important NPCs are monsters. And Gestalt certainly would make them stand out more as individuals-this mind flayer is a truly advanced telepath, the ogres fight like berserkers, one centaur is a master tracker while another casts spells, that sort of thing. So what do you guys think? If, say, a CR 7 monster is gestalt-ified with seven levels of a class (some monsters would retain some monster HD anyway, others would gain a couple, depending on if they had more or less than seven), is it then back to being a CR 7 monster against a gestalt party? Granted, some combinations would be sicker than others, like the aforementioned ogre/barbarians. But then this world is supposed to be dangerous, kind of a Dark Ages thing going on. :) Try play testing a couple examples. Easy: Ogre/berserker: Minimally, an ogre fighter would be L2 (since ogres are CR2.) Moderate: Efreeti/monk. This will be at least level 8. Hard: Adult Blue Dragon / sorceror. This bad boy will be level 14. Epic-approved: Ancient Red Dragon / fighter. Level 23, baby. And do remember, that once you hit gestalt CR/class level, you can either gestalt racial advancements, or use gestalt class combinations... so that Efreeti could wind up like this: Efreeti 8 / Monk 20 / Sorceror 12, as a gCR 20. One question, though... how would you gestalt Golems?
darczero 10-02-04, 09:39 PM	hmmm... Monsters with HD equal to CR (without increasing CR of course) and class levels equal to HD? BRILLIANT!!!! Thank you for that idea, I like it. I'll use it to further my own ends.
SMW 10-03-04, 08:58 PM	Well, actually. Since monsters HD count as levels, I would simply count their racial HD as one class... and give them another class equally to their HD. So say.. an ogre, who has 4 hit dice, would also automatically have 4 class levels. Any further advancement would make it 5 levels in one class, and 1 in another.. and 4 racial hit dice.. as an example, anyway.
Lina_Inverse 10-03-04, 09:13 PM	Well, actually. Since monsters HD count as levels, I would simply count their racial HD as one class... and give them another class equally to their HD. So say.. an ogre, who has 4 hit dice, would also automatically have 4 class levels. Any further advancement would make it 5 levels in one class, and 1 in another.. and 4 racial hit dice.. as an example, anyway. but 48hitdie dragon != CR 48.48 hitdie PC = CR48.hence the changed hitdice to CR concept,it will basiclly balence out only dragons should cause major problems as most monster dice arent good.
Baron Rod 10-12-04, 05:06 AM	One question, though... how would you gestalt Golems? Easy now that Eberron is here. Make them a Warforged type/Golem. Or just say that whoever created the Golem used the create intellegent item chart from the DMG. Now the Golem has has a Int score and can be classed using he Gestalt system. Baron Rod