Gestalt Multiclassing Save Calculation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Multiclassing Save Calculation [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alendrel
11-25-04, 10:51 PM Been pokigg around with the concept of gestalt characters for a couple of up coming games, and have run across one issue I'm not entirely sure how to handle: how to calculate base saves for a gestalt that multiclasses.

The general concept with gestalts is that you take the best of each class when you level. If you're advancing just two classes, this isn't a problem, as two good saves that overlap (e.g. Fort for cleric and fighter) increase just as they would for a normal character, as both classes give the +1 at the same time whenever you level. However, it is possible to multiclass into a sequence where you have save ups at every level up, if you look at is as "What does each class increase its save by at this level?" (e.g. the cleric//fighter1 multiclasses into cleric1/ranger1//fighter2 getting +2 to Fort, and continues to level as ranger//fighter from there, getting a +1 to Fort at each level).

Or is it more of a matter of a good save gives a +1 at each character level divisible by two, and poor saves one at each character level divisible by 3, with the first level in any given class giving the +2 for its good saves and superseding the normal bump? Such that, when you level up, you ask "Which saves are good for this combination?" and then figuring which type of saves give a +1 at that character level?

As a detailed, and slightly complex example, let's say I have a gnoll cleric/radiant seervant of pelor/fighter split as cleric6/radiantservant of Pelor7//gnoll3/fighter10. If figured the first way, he has base saves of Fort +15, Ref +4, and Will +11. Figured the later way (fairly simple, since he has good Fort and Will and poor Ref at every level), he has base saves of Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +9.

Any ideas, thoughts, comments?
gbnogkfs
11-26-04, 04:33 AM yes, the problem has already been overdiscussed... UA doesn't say much: there are no official rules (and UA is all about options OTOH)

the simplest option is to use fractional BAB/Saves rules from UA itself. that kills the problem.

otherwise, you have many options, none of which are satisfying in my opinion: the munchkin way is every level to advance BAB/Saves if at least one of the two levels you are adding increases (that way you can do a Wiz20/Sor19/Commoner1 with 19 BAB and Saves about 14/14/22);
or you can consider each couple of normal classes as one gestalt classes, that advances separately: Fighter/Wizard is a class with good BAB, good Fort, good Will, poor Ref; Wizard/Cleric is a different class with medium BAB, good Fort, good Will, poor Ref;
or you can do like that: every time you gain a level, recalculate your BAB taking for each of your gestal level one of the halves (your choice), and give the character the BAB of the resulting character, and repeat the process for each Save.

options are endless...
Greyman
11-26-04, 04:39 AM Yes, you use the best rate of progression (good or poor), not the tabulated increase each class gets at each level. Do the same for base attack bonuses too.

I suggest you use the fractional base bonus variant. It makes things so much simpler. You just have to pick the larger fraction and add that to the result.
Lord_Anthrax
11-26-04, 04:15 PM Here's my view: If Bob is a Fighter-Rogue(thus has good Reflex and Fort)and switches later to Fighter-Wizard(good Fort and Will), then he continues to progess his saves on his Fighter level, but his Will save improves as the good save and not his Reflex.

Fighter-Rogue 4: F/R/W 4/4/1
Fighter-Rogue 4/Fighter-Wizard 4: F/R/W 6/5/3

If he'd stayed Fighter-Rogue to 8 it'd be: F/R/W 6/6/2

Now if he starts an entirely new Gestalt class, say Cleric-Wizard, it'd be:

Fighter-Rogue 4/Cleric-Wizard 1: F/R/W 6/4/3

Because like starting a new class with single-class multiclassing, you get all the benefits of 1st-level class save for the extra SP for being a 1st-level character.
Knucklehead
12-22-04, 09:06 PM Anthrax, that's the best explination so far. I disagree with the extra SP, but the save progression makes sense.
Lord_Anthrax
12-23-04, 09:33 AM To me it's internal consistency. A single-class Wizard 1/Rogue 1 would have saves of F/R/W 0/2/2, so a gestalt that starts an entirely new gestalt should have the same benefit. Each to their own, of course. :cool:
Knucklehead
12-23-04, 09:42 AM I reread your post and completely misunderstood. I thought you were saying they do get the extra SP.

I agree with you 100%, the saves stack like a normal multiclass and no bonus SP.
Lord_Anthrax
12-23-04, 04:04 PM Alrighty then. :cool:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alendrel 11-25-04, 10:51 PM	Been pokigg around with the concept of gestalt characters for a couple of up coming games, and have run across one issue I'm not entirely sure how to handle: how to calculate base saves for a gestalt that multiclasses. The general concept with gestalts is that you take the best of each class when you level. If you're advancing just two classes, this isn't a problem, as two good saves that overlap (e.g. Fort for cleric and fighter) increase just as they would for a normal character, as both classes give the +1 at the same time whenever you level. However, it is possible to multiclass into a sequence where you have save ups at every level up, if you look at is as "What does each class increase its save by at this level?" (e.g. the cleric//fighter1 multiclasses into cleric1/ranger1//fighter2 getting +2 to Fort, and continues to level as ranger//fighter from there, getting a +1 to Fort at each level). Or is it more of a matter of a good save gives a +1 at each character level divisible by two, and poor saves one at each character level divisible by 3, with the first level in any given class giving the +2 for its good saves and superseding the normal bump? Such that, when you level up, you ask "Which saves are good for this combination?" and then figuring which type of saves give a +1 at that character level? As a detailed, and slightly complex example, let's say I have a gnoll cleric/radiant seervant of pelor/fighter split as cleric6/radiantservant of Pelor7//gnoll3/fighter10. If figured the first way, he has base saves of Fort +15, Ref +4, and Will +11. Figured the later way (fairly simple, since he has good Fort and Will and poor Ref at every level), he has base saves of Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +9. Any ideas, thoughts, comments?
gbnogkfs 11-26-04, 04:33 AM	yes, the problem has already been overdiscussed... UA doesn't say much: there are no official rules (and UA is all about options OTOH) the simplest option is to use fractional BAB/Saves rules from UA itself. that kills the problem. otherwise, you have many options, none of which are satisfying in my opinion: the munchkin way is every level to advance BAB/Saves if at least one of the two levels you are adding increases (that way you can do a Wiz20/Sor19/Commoner1 with 19 BAB and Saves about 14/14/22); or you can consider each couple of normal classes as one gestalt classes, that advances separately: Fighter/Wizard is a class with good BAB, good Fort, good Will, poor Ref; Wizard/Cleric is a different class with medium BAB, good Fort, good Will, poor Ref; or you can do like that: every time you gain a level, recalculate your BAB taking for each of your gestal level one of the halves (your choice), and give the character the BAB of the resulting character, and repeat the process for each Save. options are endless...
Greyman 11-26-04, 04:39 AM	Yes, you use the best rate of progression (good or poor), not the tabulated increase each class gets at each level. Do the same for base attack bonuses too. I suggest you use the fractional base bonus variant. It makes things so much simpler. You just have to pick the larger fraction and add that to the result.
Lord_Anthrax 11-26-04, 04:15 PM	Here's my view: If Bob is a Fighter-Rogue(thus has good Reflex and Fort)and switches later to Fighter-Wizard(good Fort and Will), then he continues to progess his saves on his Fighter level, but his Will save improves as the good save and not his Reflex. Fighter-Rogue 4: F/R/W 4/4/1 Fighter-Rogue 4/Fighter-Wizard 4: F/R/W 6/5/3 If he'd stayed Fighter-Rogue to 8 it'd be: F/R/W 6/6/2 Now if he starts an entirely new Gestalt class, say Cleric-Wizard, it'd be: Fighter-Rogue 4/Cleric-Wizard 1: F/R/W 6/4/3 Because like starting a new class with single-class multiclassing, you get all the benefits of 1st-level class save for the extra SP for being a 1st-level character.
Knucklehead 12-22-04, 09:06 PM	Anthrax, that's the best explination so far. I disagree with the extra SP, but the save progression makes sense.
Lord_Anthrax 12-23-04, 09:33 AM	To me it's internal consistency. A single-class Wizard 1/Rogue 1 would have saves of F/R/W 0/2/2, so a gestalt that starts an entirely new gestalt should have the same benefit. Each to their own, of course. :cool:
Knucklehead 12-23-04, 09:42 AM	I reread your post and completely misunderstood. I thought you were saying they do get the extra SP. I agree with you 100%, the saves stack like a normal multiclass and no bonus SP.
Lord_Anthrax 12-23-04, 04:04 PM	Alrighty then. :cool: