gestalt multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

gestalt multiclassing [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
scaledwingofsmog
12-16-04, 06:05 PM I have a question that I cant seem to find in the book. How do you handle gestalt multiclassing? The two ways I could think up are:

1. choosing another class.
example first level barbarian/cleric
second level fighter/cleric
for a grand total of cleric 2 barbarian 1 fighter1

2. choosing a totally different combo and leveling that as a different class
example first level fighter/rogue
second level bard/wizard

so what do you think?
Engilbrand
12-16-04, 09:59 PM What are you talking about? Just follow how it is in the book. I don't remember it addressing anything about multiclassing penalties, probably because it would be rediculous. Throw that nonsense out the window and gestalt becomes a little easier.
scaledwingofsmog
12-16-04, 11:13 PM I'm not talking about expereince penalties, I'm talking about how the class levels stack.
Lord_Anthrax
12-17-04, 07:31 AM Here's my view: A gestalt character essentially fuses two classes into one hybrid class, taking the best aspects of both. Hence a Bbn-Clr has good BAB, good Fort and Will saves, and a d12 HD. If he changes to Ftr-Clr, he still has the same bennies as a Bbn-Clr for BAB and saves(so they progress according to character level), but HD drops to d10 for each level of that.

Now, if you truly multiclass, i.e. start an entirely new gestalt combo that doesn't have any of your previous classes, then you get all the bennies of being 1st level in that class.

Ex: Hrothgar the Bbn-Clr 1 has +1 BAB, +2 Fort/Will and d12 HD. If he multiclasses into Ftr-Rog, he gains a +1 BAB, +2 Fort/Ref and a d10 HD.
If he had instead multiclassed as a Ftr-Clr, he'd have gained a +1 BAB, a +1 Fort/Will and a d10 HD, and would have all the spellcasting and such of a 2nd-Level Cleric.
Munz
12-17-04, 08:41 AM Basically your Gestalt character is treated as having one Gestalt class.

So if you were a Gestalted Fighter/Rogue; you'd have the best of the fighter with the best of the rogue, extra Bonus Feat, rogue abilities (sneak attack and whatever else at first level), then of course the rogue skill points.

Now if you multi-class from that to something else, you don't pick another gestalted class; huh-uh, no-way... that'd be a double-gestalted character! Nope, you'd just keep what you get from the gestalted class and add a level as another class. So a multiclassed Gestalted character might look something like this:
Gestalt Fighter/Rogue 1/Cleric 1

That's how we'd do it anyways. And of course, we'd still have the experience penalty for getting too many levels outside of our favorite class (when it applies, of course; i.e., humans it wouldn't).
Lord Schpungus
12-17-04, 12:42 PM That doesn't seem gestalt at all.
Munz
12-20-04, 08:34 AM Basically the idea behind a gestault character is that you have two classes making up one gestault class. If a character multiclassed and you gave him two more classes gestaulted into another single class, he'd be a character with the best of FOUR classes! That's a double-gestaulted character for you right there, considering a gestault character is one with the best of two classes put together to make the one gestault class.

But that is not just my own understanding of it, like I said; that's also the way my DM of 6+ years understands it (and he's been DM'ing for about 20 himself now).

Just a suggestion for you on how to address multiclassing. Of course, you're free to try it the other way, but I think you'll find it will become very quickly unbalanced during combat.

Anyways, whatever you decide to do; have fun with it! That's the idea after all.

M
Lord_Anthrax
12-20-04, 08:53 AM Not quite, Munz. If someone was a Fighter-Rogue 1(Good BAB, Good Fort and Ref), and went into Wizard-Rogue, their BAB for that level would be Average, and their good saves would be Ref and Will, still progressing as according to character level. They'd have BAB +2(1 from 1st Level, 1 from 2nd level in Rogue)and Fort +2(Fighter), Ref +3(Rogue), and Will +1(Wizard, because Good Save progression gives a +1 at 2nd char level).

If they'd instead done Cleric-Wizard, they'd have a +1 BAB(1 from Fighter, 0 because they're multiclassing as per single-class multiclassing), +4 Fort(+2 from Fighter, +2 from Cleric, for the same reasons as BAB above), +2 Ref(from Rogue), and +2 Will(from Cleric and Wizard).
Munz
12-20-04, 10:13 AM Sure the BAB and Saves would be comparitable; but look at the class abilities you'd be getting!

As a 1st level Fighter-Rogue you'd have bonus Fighter Feat as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack, and not to mention the abilities that rogues can do with their skills that a normal fighter can't (use magic device, search for magical traps) unless they would put cross-class skill points in. As a gestault character, these skills become open to the character.

Now add a Wizard-Rogue gestault on top of that; and you've got Scribe Scroll, Acquire Familiar, 0 and 1st level spells, AND whatever abilities and skill points the rogue gets for second level as well as the better of the two classes' BAB and Saves and Hit points.

At second level you would have a character that would have 1d10+1d6+Con Mod (x2), Bab +2, Good Saves all around, Bonus Fighter Feat from 1st level, +1d6 sneak attack, a whole SLEW of skill points (from both levels using the Rogue's skill points) not to mention about twice as many skills available as class-skills now instead of cross-classed skills, AND on top of that the character would have a familiar and casting 0 and 1st level spells.

This is all a bit ridiculously much for a 2nd-level character to be able to do.
And then you are suggesting that they could do this every time they level; just go back and forth between fighter-rogue gestault and wizard-rogue gestault every other time they level? Think of how many Class abilities they would acquire within that time if they gained the equivilent of two classes' abilities EVERY time they level.

At third level they would have 3 levels of class abilities in roge, and either 2 in fighter abilities or 2 in wizard abilities as well as having the other 1 level of abilities as the fighter or wizard (whichever they didn't take gestaulted as 3rd level multiclassed).

Sorry if this sounds confusing; but just think about all the class abilities you'd be gaining as well as the better HP, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Weapon and Armor Selection, and what-not. I think you'll see it will quickly expand to a ridiculous amount of things you could have as a 2nd-or-3rd level character.

Which is why if you multiclass while playing a gestault character, you should only be allowed to multiclass picking up another single class.

Hope this helped.

M
Lord_Anthrax
12-20-04, 02:05 PM Yes, they can do that. But always remember, by doing so they become fairly good at many things and not very good at any one thing. Just like a single-classed Fighter 10/Wizard 10 has some good fighting and spellcasting, but isn't as good as a Fighter 20 in combat or as good as a Wizard 20 in spellcasting. Besides, they're still limited by what you can actually do in a round. Yes, there is the potential for some abuse, but I think it's far outweighed by the loss of depth they gain. Now the way you suggest is good if you want to retain progression in one class and stack on some levels from various other classes for nifty tricks, but still it's that one class from which your main abilities spring.

My view is that if you begin an entirely new Gestalt class you should get the same benefits as a character who single-classedly multiclassed, and if you retain one of your original classes you make a shift in some areas depending on what you take.
Knucklehead
12-22-04, 08:41 PM When you multi-class, do you stack the save bonuses?

For example I have a Rog4/Sor4 with Fort 1/Ref 4/Will 4. For next level I pick Rog5/PrC1. Now lets say the PrC grants a Fort 2/Ref 0/Will 2 for first level.

If you take the best of Rog5 and PrC1 you'd get Fort 2/Ref 4/ Will 2.

SOOOOO What are the new Saves? and Why?
Lord_Anthrax
12-23-04, 09:39 AM You could do that, but IMO you wouldn't get any save bonus(as it should remain based on overall character level, and at 5th Level there's no increase to saves), but if you continued in Rogue-PrC, at 6th Level you'd get a +1 to all your saves, since all your saves are good. Again at 8th, 10th, 12th, etc.

Now if it was instead Fighter-PrC, it'd be a +2 to Fort and Will.
Knucklehead
12-23-04, 10:13 AM So when multiclassing with the gestalt you don't go above the actual level maximums?

So when you multiclass normally you stack.
Rog 4 = 1/4/1
Brd 1 = 0/2/2

Rog4/Brd1 = 1/6/3

But with gestalt...
Rog4/Sor4 = 1/4/4

add Rog5/PrC1 (1st level PrC grants 2/0/2) = 2/4/2

Is it now 3/4/6 (1/4/4 + 2/0/2)?
gbnogkfs
12-23-04, 11:01 AM it basically works like this:

DO WHAT YOU WANT

that's what is written (oh, and can't take two PrCs at once or use MT, Cer, PT, EK, AT and the like)
Harsk
12-23-04, 03:51 PM So when multiclassing with the gestalt you don't go above the actual level maximums?Correct, barring prestige classes, which only make a difference if you elect not to use fractional progressions (below).
But with gestalt...
Rog4/Sor4 = 1/4/4Yup. Taking the best of each class at each level. I'm thinking this is where the poster above is misinterpreting things, but I honestly can't tell.
add Rog5/PrC1 (1st level PrC grants 2/0/2) = 2/4/2Rog5/PrC1 only grants you 2/0/2. Rogue doesn't add anything to any save at 5th level. Your math below shows that you got it right, though.
Is it now 3/4/6 (1/4/4 + 2/0/2)?Yes, assuming your DM doesn't want you to use fractional save bonuses.

Actually, I'll go ahead and respond to Munz as well...
As a 1st level Fighter-Rogue you'd have bonus Fighter Feat as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack, and not to mention the abilities that rogues can do with their skills that a normal fighter can't (use magic device, search for magical traps) unless they would put cross-class skill points in. As a gestault character, these skills become open to the character.So we've got our first level of gestalt as Fig1/Rog1.

You've summed it up pretty well. I'm just going to put it in a slightly different form.

BAB +1 HD d10 Fort +2 Ref +2 Will +0 8+Int skill points

Plus, as you mentioned, the fighter bonus feat and the rogue's sneak attack and trapfinding.
Now add a Wizard-Rogue gestault on top of thatSecond level of gestalt, Wiz1/Rog2, so the total character is now Fig1/Wiz1/Rog2.
and you've got Scribe Scroll, Acquire Familiar, 0 and 1st level spells, AND whatever abilities and skill points the rogue gets for second level as well as the better of the two classes' BAB and Saves and Hit points.
This is where you have to make judgment calls, or your DM does. If you go with the "use the best at each level" version of the Gestalt, then you get this:

BAB +1 HD d6 Fort +0 Ref +1 Will +2 8+Int skill points

For a total, as you correctly noted, of

BAB +1 HD d6+d10 (plus con) Fort +2 Ref +3 Will +2, etc.

And the aforementioned Scrolls, familiars, spells, and evasion. I'll discuss the other possibility below.
At second level you would have a character that would have 1d10+1d6+Con Mod (x2), Bab +2, Good Saves all around, Bonus Fighter Feat from 1st level, +1d6 sneak attack, a whole SLEW of skill points (from both levels using the Rogue's skill points) not to mention about twice as many skills available as class-skills now instead of cross-classed skills, AND on top of that the character would have a familiar and casting 0 and 1st level spells.One nit-pick; +2/+3/+2 is not "good saves all around." That would be +3/+3/+3.

I, and many others, recommend using a fractional system for computing BAB and saves in gestalts. To use a fractional system for BAB, at each level:

If either class has a full attack progression over 20 levels (that is, ends up with +20/+15/+10/+5 as their sequence), add +1 to BAB.
If the better class has a 3/4 attack progression (ending up at +15/+10/+5, like the rogue), add +3/4 to BAB.
If the better class has a 1/2 attack progression (ending up at +10/+5, like wizards & sorcerers), add +1/2 to BAB.

The reason to do this is a simple exploit in the rules. You could make a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19/Wizard 20 and, if you used the strict "best at each level" rule, have a +20/+15/+10/+5 attack progression at 20th level. (You do this by taking Fighter at level 1 for +1 BAB; wizard gets +1 BAB at second level, which is your first level of sorcerer; sorcerer gets +1 BAB at second level (which is third character level), when wizard doesn't, and so on; wiz will give you +1 at even levels, sorcerer at odds.) It's clearly silly that this character would be as good in melee as a Fighter 20/anything, but there it is. You get to +20/etc. either way. (You and your DM would have to decide on how to do the rounding. For the two-level example above, if you round up, it comes out exactly the same as the method you used.)

Using a fractional system for saves is similar. But here, since the maximum for a save at 20th level is +12, you are using a different multiplier. I'll just use reflex as an example.

If you look at your two classes when you level up and either class has reflex as a "good" save, add +2/3 to your reflex save.
If you look at your two classes and neither class has reflex as a "good" save (that is, the progression for each class maxes out at +6), add +1/3 to your reflex save.

This method is kind of crummy for low-level gestalts (for your hypothetical third-level PC, it would give Fort +1, Ref + 1 1/3, Will +1), but much better balanced for high-level gestalts.
Sorry if this sounds confusing; but just think about all the class abilities you'd be gaining as well as the better HP, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Weapon and Armor Selection, and what-not. I think you'll see it will quickly expand to a ridiculous amount of things you could have as a 2nd-or-3rd level character.That's the point of gestalts, though -- to give single characters the ability to do more things than single characters can usually do. It's designed for games with fewer players, so that you don't have to count on NPCs to "fill the gaps" in what your group can't do. It *is* unbalanced, relative to a regular character of equivalent level. Trying to balance it by restricting multiclassing the way your DM does (which I still don't quite understand, but it's not my game, so I don't have to:)) is one approach, but it's something different than a "true" gestalt at that point.

In the end, though, it doesn't matter. As long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if I understand the mechanics you've applied. :)

~Harsk
Munz
12-28-04, 09:12 AM I see what you are saying... and I am coming to understand something even more. It would seem my DM is fudging the variant rule into a variant of a variant rule. Basically his interpretation as he sees fit. Sure, I know, DM's call and everything... but I kind of wish he would stick to how the book explains it that way I wouldn't have even bothered trying to post an explanation on here that isn't even sound.

As you guys describe, Gestault is way better than we are playing it.

Oh well; it's still fun, that's the important thing.
gbnogkfs
01-05-05, 07:36 PM the fact is that gestalt rules are not complete: you must use house rules if you want to use it for multiclassing. one interpretation or the other, there are some you may like and some you don't, but no one is really "correct" or "incorrect".

well, there can be "incorrect" ones, of course, if you don't follow the few rules given in UA...
evangelion1010
01-05-05, 11:56 PM I always took that for BAB, you simply added up the levels, using the highest BAB.

As far as saves, i take the number of levels they have a good save in that skill, then take the levels they don't have a good save.

For example, wizard 3 /something x, fighter/barbarian 3 - they'd have a 4 in will, 4 in fortitude, 2 in reflex.

As far as feats/special abilites go, they are assumed to be first level, IMO. Although there's no doubt that a gestalt character with only one gestalt class would be powerful, i believe there are (number of classes)^2 gestalt choices at any level to pick from.

I think proof of this comes from the fact that you are allowed to start off as a fighter1/wizard 1, but can take Prc 1/wizard x if you like.

Its powerful anyway you slice it, but i read gestalt characters to be essentially as powerful as two characters (not quite, but close), and only to be used in a small party (2-3 members). If you only allow one gestalt class, then you'll probably only get ones like favored soul/sorcerer, fighter/rogue, fighter/arcane caster....etc. Bard becomes a nice choice for nearly any class due to its armored casting and skill points...

You could also treat a character as having one class that is always gestalt. The character picks a class at level 1, and that class is always paired up with any other class. Then the same rules for multiclassing apply, but only for the class that can change.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scaledwingofsmog 12-16-04, 06:05 PM	I have a question that I cant seem to find in the book. How do you handle gestalt multiclassing? The two ways I could think up are: 1. choosing another class. example first level barbarian/cleric second level fighter/cleric for a grand total of cleric 2 barbarian 1 fighter1 2. choosing a totally different combo and leveling that as a different class example first level fighter/rogue second level bard/wizard so what do you think?
Engilbrand 12-16-04, 09:59 PM	What are you talking about? Just follow how it is in the book. I don't remember it addressing anything about multiclassing penalties, probably because it would be rediculous. Throw that nonsense out the window and gestalt becomes a little easier.
scaledwingofsmog 12-16-04, 11:13 PM	I'm not talking about expereince penalties, I'm talking about how the class levels stack.
Lord_Anthrax 12-17-04, 07:31 AM	Here's my view: A gestalt character essentially fuses two classes into one hybrid class, taking the best aspects of both. Hence a Bbn-Clr has good BAB, good Fort and Will saves, and a d12 HD. If he changes to Ftr-Clr, he still has the same bennies as a Bbn-Clr for BAB and saves(so they progress according to character level), but HD drops to d10 for each level of that. Now, if you truly multiclass, i.e. start an entirely new gestalt combo that doesn't have any of your previous classes, then you get all the bennies of being 1st level in that class. Ex: Hrothgar the Bbn-Clr 1 has +1 BAB, +2 Fort/Will and d12 HD. If he multiclasses into Ftr-Rog, he gains a +1 BAB, +2 Fort/Ref and a d10 HD. If he had instead multiclassed as a Ftr-Clr, he'd have gained a +1 BAB, a +1 Fort/Will and a d10 HD, and would have all the spellcasting and such of a 2nd-Level Cleric.
Munz 12-17-04, 08:41 AM	Basically your Gestalt character is treated as having one Gestalt class. So if you were a Gestalted Fighter/Rogue; you'd have the best of the fighter with the best of the rogue, extra Bonus Feat, rogue abilities (sneak attack and whatever else at first level), then of course the rogue skill points. Now if you multi-class from that to something else, you don't pick another gestalted class; huh-uh, no-way... that'd be a double-gestalted character! Nope, you'd just keep what you get from the gestalted class and add a level as another class. So a multiclassed Gestalted character might look something like this: Gestalt Fighter/Rogue 1/Cleric 1 That's how we'd do it anyways. And of course, we'd still have the experience penalty for getting too many levels outside of our favorite class (when it applies, of course; i.e., humans it wouldn't).
Lord Schpungus 12-17-04, 12:42 PM	That doesn't seem gestalt at all.
Munz 12-20-04, 08:34 AM	Basically the idea behind a gestault character is that you have two classes making up one gestault class. If a character multiclassed and you gave him two more classes gestaulted into another single class, he'd be a character with the best of FOUR classes! That's a double-gestaulted character for you right there, considering a gestault character is one with the best of two classes put together to make the one gestault class. But that is not just my own understanding of it, like I said; that's also the way my DM of 6+ years understands it (and he's been DM'ing for about 20 himself now). Just a suggestion for you on how to address multiclassing. Of course, you're free to try it the other way, but I think you'll find it will become very quickly unbalanced during combat. Anyways, whatever you decide to do; have fun with it! That's the idea after all. M
Lord_Anthrax 12-20-04, 08:53 AM	Not quite, Munz. If someone was a Fighter-Rogue 1(Good BAB, Good Fort and Ref), and went into Wizard-Rogue, their BAB for that level would be Average, and their good saves would be Ref and Will, still progressing as according to character level. They'd have BAB +2(1 from 1st Level, 1 from 2nd level in Rogue)and Fort +2(Fighter), Ref +3(Rogue), and Will +1(Wizard, because Good Save progression gives a +1 at 2nd char level). If they'd instead done Cleric-Wizard, they'd have a +1 BAB(1 from Fighter, 0 because they're multiclassing as per single-class multiclassing), +4 Fort(+2 from Fighter, +2 from Cleric, for the same reasons as BAB above), +2 Ref(from Rogue), and +2 Will(from Cleric and Wizard).
Munz 12-20-04, 10:13 AM	Sure the BAB and Saves would be comparitable; but look at the class abilities you'd be getting! As a 1st level Fighter-Rogue you'd have bonus Fighter Feat as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack, and not to mention the abilities that rogues can do with their skills that a normal fighter can't (use magic device, search for magical traps) unless they would put cross-class skill points in. As a gestault character, these skills become open to the character. Now add a Wizard-Rogue gestault on top of that; and you've got Scribe Scroll, Acquire Familiar, 0 and 1st level spells, AND whatever abilities and skill points the rogue gets for second level as well as the better of the two classes' BAB and Saves and Hit points. At second level you would have a character that would have 1d10+1d6+Con Mod (x2), Bab +2, Good Saves all around, Bonus Fighter Feat from 1st level, +1d6 sneak attack, a whole SLEW of skill points (from both levels using the Rogue's skill points) not to mention about twice as many skills available as class-skills now instead of cross-classed skills, AND on top of that the character would have a familiar and casting 0 and 1st level spells. This is all a bit ridiculously much for a 2nd-level character to be able to do. And then you are suggesting that they could do this every time they level; just go back and forth between fighter-rogue gestault and wizard-rogue gestault every other time they level? Think of how many Class abilities they would acquire within that time if they gained the equivilent of two classes' abilities EVERY time they level. At third level they would have 3 levels of class abilities in roge, and either 2 in fighter abilities or 2 in wizard abilities as well as having the other 1 level of abilities as the fighter or wizard (whichever they didn't take gestaulted as 3rd level multiclassed). Sorry if this sounds confusing; but just think about all the class abilities you'd be gaining as well as the better HP, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Weapon and Armor Selection, and what-not. I think you'll see it will quickly expand to a ridiculous amount of things you could have as a 2nd-or-3rd level character. Which is why if you multiclass while playing a gestault character, you should only be allowed to multiclass picking up another single class. Hope this helped. M
Lord_Anthrax 12-20-04, 02:05 PM	Yes, they can do that. But always remember, by doing so they become fairly good at many things and not very good at any one thing. Just like a single-classed Fighter 10/Wizard 10 has some good fighting and spellcasting, but isn't as good as a Fighter 20 in combat or as good as a Wizard 20 in spellcasting. Besides, they're still limited by what you can actually do in a round. Yes, there is the potential for some abuse, but I think it's far outweighed by the loss of depth they gain. Now the way you suggest is good if you want to retain progression in one class and stack on some levels from various other classes for nifty tricks, but still it's that one class from which your main abilities spring. My view is that if you begin an entirely new Gestalt class you should get the same benefits as a character who single-classedly multiclassed, and if you retain one of your original classes you make a shift in some areas depending on what you take.
Knucklehead 12-22-04, 08:41 PM	When you multi-class, do you stack the save bonuses? For example I have a Rog4/Sor4 with Fort 1/Ref 4/Will 4. For next level I pick Rog5/PrC1. Now lets say the PrC grants a Fort 2/Ref 0/Will 2 for first level. If you take the best of Rog5 and PrC1 you'd get Fort 2/Ref 4/ Will 2. SOOOOO What are the new Saves? and Why?
Lord_Anthrax 12-23-04, 09:39 AM	You could do that, but IMO you wouldn't get any save bonus(as it should remain based on overall character level, and at 5th Level there's no increase to saves), but if you continued in Rogue-PrC, at 6th Level you'd get a +1 to all your saves, since all your saves are good. Again at 8th, 10th, 12th, etc. Now if it was instead Fighter-PrC, it'd be a +2 to Fort and Will.
Knucklehead 12-23-04, 10:13 AM	So when multiclassing with the gestalt you don't go above the actual level maximums? So when you multiclass normally you stack. Rog 4 = 1/4/1 Brd 1 = 0/2/2 Rog4/Brd1 = 1/6/3 But with gestalt... Rog4/Sor4 = 1/4/4 add Rog5/PrC1 (1st level PrC grants 2/0/2) = 2/4/2 Is it now 3/4/6 (1/4/4 + 2/0/2)?
gbnogkfs 12-23-04, 11:01 AM	it basically works like this: DO WHAT YOU WANT that's what is written (oh, and can't take two PrCs at once or use MT, Cer, PT, EK, AT and the like)
Harsk 12-23-04, 03:51 PM	So when multiclassing with the gestalt you don't go above the actual level maximums?Correct, barring prestige classes, which only make a difference if you elect not to use fractional progressions (below). But with gestalt... Rog4/Sor4 = 1/4/4Yup. Taking the best of each class at each level. I'm thinking this is where the poster above is misinterpreting things, but I honestly can't tell. add Rog5/PrC1 (1st level PrC grants 2/0/2) = 2/4/2Rog5/PrC1 only grants you 2/0/2. Rogue doesn't add anything to any save at 5th level. Your math below shows that you got it right, though. Is it now 3/4/6 (1/4/4 + 2/0/2)?Yes, assuming your DM doesn't want you to use fractional save bonuses. Actually, I'll go ahead and respond to Munz as well... As a 1st level Fighter-Rogue you'd have bonus Fighter Feat as well as +1d6 Sneak Attack, and not to mention the abilities that rogues can do with their skills that a normal fighter can't (use magic device, search for magical traps) unless they would put cross-class skill points in. As a gestault character, these skills become open to the character.So we've got our first level of gestalt as Fig1/Rog1. You've summed it up pretty well. I'm just going to put it in a slightly different form. BAB +1 HD d10 Fort +2 Ref +2 Will +0 8+Int skill points Plus, as you mentioned, the fighter bonus feat and the rogue's sneak attack and trapfinding. Now add a Wizard-Rogue gestault on top of thatSecond level of gestalt, Wiz1/Rog2, so the total character is now Fig1/Wiz1/Rog2. and you've got Scribe Scroll, Acquire Familiar, 0 and 1st level spells, AND whatever abilities and skill points the rogue gets for second level as well as the better of the two classes' BAB and Saves and Hit points. This is where you have to make judgment calls, or your DM does. If you go with the "use the best at each level" version of the Gestalt, then you get this: BAB +1 HD d6 Fort +0 Ref +1 Will +2 8+Int skill points For a total, as you correctly noted, of BAB +1 HD d6+d10 (plus con) Fort +2 Ref +3 Will +2, etc. And the aforementioned Scrolls, familiars, spells, and evasion. I'll discuss the other possibility below. At second level you would have a character that would have 1d10+1d6+Con Mod (x2), Bab +2, Good Saves all around, Bonus Fighter Feat from 1st level, +1d6 sneak attack, a whole SLEW of skill points (from both levels using the Rogue's skill points) not to mention about twice as many skills available as class-skills now instead of cross-classed skills, AND on top of that the character would have a familiar and casting 0 and 1st level spells.One nit-pick; +2/+3/+2 is not "good saves all around." That would be +3/+3/+3. I, and many others, recommend using a fractional system for computing BAB and saves in gestalts. To use a fractional system for BAB, at each level: If either class has a full attack progression over 20 levels (that is, ends up with +20/+15/+10/+5 as their sequence), add +1 to BAB. If the better class has a 3/4 attack progression (ending up at +15/+10/+5, like the rogue), add +3/4 to BAB. If the better class has a 1/2 attack progression (ending up at +10/+5, like wizards & sorcerers), add +1/2 to BAB. The reason to do this is a simple exploit in the rules. You could make a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19/Wizard 20 and, if you used the strict "best at each level" rule, have a +20/+15/+10/+5 attack progression at 20th level. (You do this by taking Fighter at level 1 for +1 BAB; wizard gets +1 BAB at second level, which is your first level of sorcerer; sorcerer gets +1 BAB at second level (which is third character level), when wizard doesn't, and so on; wiz will give you +1 at even levels, sorcerer at odds.) It's clearly silly that this character would be as good in melee as a Fighter 20/anything, but there it is. You get to +20/etc. either way. (You and your DM would have to decide on how to do the rounding. For the two-level example above, if you round up, it comes out exactly the same as the method you used.) Using a fractional system for saves is similar. But here, since the maximum for a save at 20th level is +12, you are using a different multiplier. I'll just use reflex as an example. If you look at your two classes when you level up and either class has reflex as a "good" save, add +2/3 to your reflex save. If you look at your two classes and neither class has reflex as a "good" save (that is, the progression for each class maxes out at +6), add +1/3 to your reflex save. This method is kind of crummy for low-level gestalts (for your hypothetical third-level PC, it would give Fort +1, Ref + 1 1/3, Will +1), but much better balanced for high-level gestalts. Sorry if this sounds confusing; but just think about all the class abilities you'd be gaining as well as the better HP, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Weapon and Armor Selection, and what-not. I think you'll see it will quickly expand to a ridiculous amount of things you could have as a 2nd-or-3rd level character.That's the point of gestalts, though -- to give single characters the ability to do more things than single characters can usually do. It's designed for games with fewer players, so that you don't have to count on NPCs to "fill the gaps" in what your group can't do. It is unbalanced, relative to a regular character of equivalent level. Trying to balance it by restricting multiclassing the way your DM does (which I still don't quite understand, but it's not my game, so I don't have to:)) is one approach, but it's something different than a "true" gestalt at that point. In the end, though, it doesn't matter. As long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if I understand the mechanics you've applied. :) ~Harsk
Munz 12-28-04, 09:12 AM	I see what you are saying... and I am coming to understand something even more. It would seem my DM is fudging the variant rule into a variant of a variant rule. Basically his interpretation as he sees fit. Sure, I know, DM's call and everything... but I kind of wish he would stick to how the book explains it that way I wouldn't have even bothered trying to post an explanation on here that isn't even sound. As you guys describe, Gestault is way better than we are playing it. Oh well; it's still fun, that's the important thing.
gbnogkfs 01-05-05, 07:36 PM	the fact is that gestalt rules are not complete: you must use house rules if you want to use it for multiclassing. one interpretation or the other, there are some you may like and some you don't, but no one is really "correct" or "incorrect". well, there can be "incorrect" ones, of course, if you don't follow the few rules given in UA...
evangelion1010 01-05-05, 11:56 PM	I always took that for BAB, you simply added up the levels, using the highest BAB. As far as saves, i take the number of levels they have a good save in that skill, then take the levels they don't have a good save. For example, wizard 3 /something x, fighter/barbarian 3 - they'd have a 4 in will, 4 in fortitude, 2 in reflex. As far as feats/special abilites go, they are assumed to be first level, IMO. Although there's no doubt that a gestalt character with only one gestalt class would be powerful, i believe there are (number of classes)^2 gestalt choices at any level to pick from. I think proof of this comes from the fact that you are allowed to start off as a fighter1/wizard 1, but can take Prc 1/wizard x if you like. Its powerful anyway you slice it, but i read gestalt characters to be essentially as powerful as two characters (not quite, but close), and only to be used in a small party (2-3 members). If you only allow one gestalt class, then you'll probably only get ones like favored soul/sorcerer, fighter/rogue, fighter/arcane caster....etc. Bard becomes a nice choice for nearly any class due to its armored casting and skill points... You could also treat a character as having one class that is always gestalt. The character picks a class at level 1, and that class is always paired up with any other class. Then the same rules for multiclassing apply, but only for the class that can change.