Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nightbanegod 06-16-05, 09:32 PM	Sooooo. im an aspiring DM (wish me luck) and ive kinda got the problem with getting enough people to stick together long enough to run a campaign more than a few sessions... so here's my question... who out here has tried the "Gestalt" variant of playing DnD, and how well did it work for you or whats your beef with it? speak your peace so i might get some peace of my own!!! :confused: 2ndly i was wondering if anyone has made house rules for prestige classes for gestalt and if so whaddidya do?
Noc Rat 06-17-05, 02:55 AM	We tried gestalting about 6 months ago, and quite frankly, everyone in the RPG troupe agrees that once you gestalt, there really is no coming back. I mean, fist of all, the combinations are ENDLESS. You can maximize potential (Monk and Paladin, Cleric and Monk, or Cleric and Paladin for the BEST uses of Wis and Cha), whittle out class weaknesses by combining special classes (like overcoming the low BAB and the weak HD of a spellcaster with some melee power) and generally go wild (WarMage and Swashbuckler classes so you add your Int TWICE on every melee or ranged touch attack). Also, you can finally add all the high ECL races or high LA templates while taking a regular class on the other side, beefing you up like nothing the world has ever seen (Succubus and Sorcerer and whatnot). In the world of gestalt, Savage Species and the Monster Manuals are as important as the Player's Handbook. It's honestly a very high-powerful campaign. The basic rule in the gestalt style is pitting the PCs against monsters that are AT LEAST 1.5 times the regular non-gestalt CR. That means that even though they're level 4, they can easily beat up a CR 6. Also, since they're technically level 4 (albeit gestalt), they'll get a TON of XP and a whole lotta goodies too. It's incredibly fun for both the DM and the PCs if played correctly, since the battles are fiercer, supercharged, even. The players will obviously pack a lot more firepower than the regular PC's, but bear in mind that a creature with 1.5 times the CR means that they'll have higher AC, attacks, and most importantly, their Spell Resistance and DR will be equally more powerful, making it for a battle that will surely rely on a lot of wits. The MAIN problem in running a gestalt campaign is how rampant min/maxing can run in this game style. Sure, a rogue/sorcerer at 4th level is quite a challenge, but a half-fiend(LA +4)/4th level sorcerer is oh so much powerful. The boosts in the stats will make such a creature very very VERY superpowerful. So, I suggest you start them off at lower levels, perhaps 2nd or 3rd, where their choice of templates is limited. Also, a word of advice: KEEP YOUR CHARACTERS AWAY FROM THE FERAL TEMPLATE!!!!!! Out of all the templates, it is the one that will wreak the most havoc in your game. All in all, I do think you should go for it. Just tread carefully, and remember that since you're giving your players all these nice goodies, you have to be EXTRA cruel with them. Monsters should be tougher, traps should be deadlier, and if you're gonna pit them against some evil (or good) mastermind, have them go against a gestalted creature. NOTHING makes them quiver more than a 6 HD creature with 6 levels of some class that perfectly goes with what they do. Happy Huntings!!! If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. Best of luck.
Old French Admiral 06-17-05, 03:13 AM	I've always been curious about Gestalts as well (sadly, however, I've never gotten the chance to use them). I'd be interested to hear from more people about their experiences -- particularly in regards to the base class/prestige class interplay.
jaerad 06-17-05, 04:30 AM	Before some idiot posts it, I'll give you a quick heads up... Fighter 1/Sorc 19 + Wiz 20 does not give you a +20 BAB. You DO NOT gain BAB, saves, etc by following what number the table gives at that level. You follow progression. A fighter 1/sorc 19 has 1 level of Good BAB progression and 19 levels of Poor BAB progression. This means you get a +11 BAB. You pick up whereever you left off if you start a repeat progression, you don't start over. For a quick, handy table for following progressions - there's a table right by gestalts for Fractional BAB/Saves. Just ignore the fractions (unless you want to encorporate that variant) and use the whole numbers. That table exactly models progression (the fractional variant is about letting Rogue 1/Wiz 1 have a BAB of 1 instead of 0 - it's placed poorly as it really has nothing to do with Gestalt). One other thing to keep in mind, since Gestalts have to follow progression rather than "what the table says," saves have a hard cap of +12. You don't get the +2 bump for multiclassing that you normally get. This means that Gestalt characters will actually have lower base saves than normal characters. Other than those notes that a lot of people miss, Gestalt is da bizzomb. As Noc Rat said, Gestalt makes monster characters really shine. It also makes taking a blank level to get rid of LA (a rule shown in Savage Progressions here on WotC.com, which comes from SS iirc), actually worthwhile as well since you don't have to lose BAB, saves, etc. Not to mention that you don't have to worry about poor BAB for the monster you want to be a fighter with, or a bad skill list for your skill-monkey. Btw, here's a f00kin' awesome build for a meleer, IMO. Dwarf (for encumberance and Dwarven Waraxe), Ranger 2/Fighter 18 (ranger gives you a thrown weapon feat that's handy and skills you'll need for PrCs - and fighter gives you 10 extra feats). Werebear LA 3 / Bear 5 (use Savage Progressions, this gives you everything but a final +4 STR and Large size, which I avoid for armor/weapon issues) / Deepwarden 2 (CON > AC) / Exotic Weapon Master 2 (uncanny blow + trip attack) / Barb. 8 (Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge, Raging). Raging isn't really important, since you get way higher +s by just turning into a Hybrid (which you can do at no limit/day) - but Fast Movement is nice and I got bored of min/maxing so I just picked Barb. to fuse the iconic warrior classes together. Good luck with your campaign!
LordGilwen 06-17-05, 09:44 AM	Sooooo. im an aspiring DM (wish me luck) and ive kinda got the problem with getting enough people to stick together long enough to run a campaign more than a few sessions... so here's my question... who out here has tried the "Gestalt" variant of playing DnD, and how well did it work for you or whats your beef with it? speak your peace so i might get some peace of my own!!! :confused: 2ndly i was wondering if anyone has made house rules for prestige classes for gestalt and if so whaddidya do? I like the Gestalt rules it does kick the power level up about 1.5 times but my group only has 2 regulars so the kick in power is really needed. I haven't played with 4 ppl being gestalts but I wouldn't think it would take a huge adjustment to your game planning but it might take a couple of sessions to get the feel that you are going for right. alot of ppl freaked out when they first read the rules for gestalt characters. While there is a power bump it is across the board since NPC have access to it and I wouldn't run gestalt PC with non gestalt PC's and don't allow classes that are essential blended classes already like the Eldritch night and Mystic Theurge (you could proably be ok if those classes took up both sides of the gestalt progression). Also just because you are getting two classes worth of class abilities you still can't just multiple abilities at once under most circumstances, some will stack, some won't, but overall it's one or the other that can be used at once. I only have one house rule if you are taking a monster class then that class takes up both sides when you are using it. I like presevering the what level adjustments are trying to do and all LA races in my games have race templates. If you don't use racial templates then I would suggest (depending on the power level you want to acheive) observing the ECL rules and making it take up both sides of the gestalt progression. I am not knocking the alternative just listing what I do in my campaign. I chose a specific power level in my games and I felt that not observing the ECL rules for my campaign when gestalting then the power curve is skewed a little further than 1.5 times the normal power level. In regards to prestige classes I treat them like regular classes. Also keep in mind what jaerad said about the BAB and Saves table, it can get quite tricky unless you break them down to the bonuses they actually give and ignore the progressions as written. There are a ton of cool options and this is alot of fun! Gil
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-17-05, 10:26 AM	I will never play gestalt again. (I'll never play 3.5 again either).
Eikcuf 06-17-05, 10:42 AM	also as a quick note on Prc's by the RAW you can only have one at any given level. pg. 73, top of the page, right hand side. :)
nightbanegod 06-17-05, 04:00 PM	didnt think id get this much feed back about it but thanks peeps... and keep em comin this is good background for me!!
gbnogkfs 06-17-05, 11:39 PM	please, don't take that too pesonal, but I don't like being called an idiot. Before some idiot posts it, I'll give you a quick heads up... Fighter 1/Sorc 19 + Wiz 20 does not give you a +20 BAB. You DO NOT gain BAB, saves, etc by following what number the table gives at that level. You follow progression. A fighter 1/sorc 19 has 1 level of Good BAB progression and 19 levels of Poor BAB progression. This means you get a +11 BAB. You pick up whereever you left off if you start a repeat progression, you don't start over. before some idiot can spread out its verb, there is NOT ever anywhere a definition of what those freakin' "progressions" are. rules are NOT clear. the uber ftr1-scr19/wiz20 (a creation of mine on these boards) is just a way of interpreting it. not wrong, simply not the only available choice. For a quick, handy table for following progressions - there's a table right by gestalts for Fractional BAB/Saves. Just ignore the fractions (unless you want to encorporate that variant) and use the whole numbers. That table exactly models progression (the fractional variant is about letting Rogue 1/Wiz 1 have a BAB of 1 instead of 0 - it's placed poorly as it really has nothing to do with Gestalt). One other thing to keep in mind, since Gestalts have to follow progression rather than "what the table says," saves have a hard cap of +12. You don't get the +2 bump for multiclassing that you normally get. This means that Gestalt characters will actually have lower base saves than normal characters. seems like our I-know-gestalt friend has been smoking hard... Other than those notes that a lot of people miss sorry; I think most people miss what it's not written... :rolleyes: , Gestalt is da bizzomb. As Noc Rat said, Gestalt makes monster characters really shine. It also makes taking a blank level to get rid of LA (a rule shown in Savage Progressions here on WotC.com, which comes from SS iirc), actually worthwhile as well since you don't have to lose BAB, saves, etc. Not to mention that you don't have to worry about poor BAB for the monster you want to be a fighter with, or a bad skill list for your skill-monkey. can you point that rule? a lot of discussion has took place on the boards as to how to handle LA with gestalt.
jaerad 06-18-05, 12:38 AM	please, don't take that too pesonal, but I don't like being called an idiot. You're right. I'm sorry, it was an offhand comment and I really didn't mean any offense by it. I really am sorry if I slighted you at all. before some idiot can spread out its verb, there is NOT ever anywhere a definition of what those freakin' "progressions" are. rules are NOT clear. the uber ftr1-scr19/wiz20 (a creation of mine on these boards) is just a way of interpreting it. not wrong, simply not the only available choice. Actually it's not a way of interpreting it. I pointed out that House Rule section because it spells out what a "progression" is. You're right that it's not clearly defined within the text of Gestalt, but it is not intirely up in the air. If you gimmie a min, I'll dig up a really good post on this subject and edit it in. seems like our I-know-gestalt friend has been smoking hard... ... How's that now? If you have to follow progressions for BAB/Saves, which means not simply adding the numbers in the columns but either 1) picking up where you previously left off, or 2) combining the total result from # levels good save, # levels poor, etc... - then logically, you cannot gain a higher base save than +12. Either you have less than 20 levels of good save, in which case your save will be <12, or you have 20 levels of good save in which case you have to pick up where you left off (such as Fighter 10/Barb 10 on one side would have 20 levels of good Fort) and would therefore not advance past +12. sorry; I think most people miss what it's not written... :rolleyes: You know, I am sorry about the idiot remark. You could have been the bigger man, so to speak. Anyways, it is written. I didn't invent the words I reread as I posted this. can you point that rule? a lot of discussion has took place on the boards as to how to handle LA with gestalt. Sure. Savage Progessions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp). As far as how to apply LA, it's not that hard. You only have one XP amount. It's not like you have XP in both sides like 2E. Since you only have one XP total, it is that total that would be affected by LA. Maybe it's wrong to assume that you can just apply templated LA levels (that don't grant BAB, Saves, Skills, HD, etc), but I didn't think it was that big of a stretch. Although you're right, that part wouldn't strictly be "core." Ok, I'll edit this in a few minutes when I drag up that old thread. *EDIT* Gestalt Houserules (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6292437) What is Gestalt? (a guide) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=2919289) I forget which thread laid it out the easiest, gimmie another min to read through them. *EDIT 2* Post #37 by Tenzhi on the first link (Gestalt Houserules) explains it pretty clearly. I remember reading a really well written explaination - but I think that may have been a long, long ago post back on the Classes board. Not about to go digging through 20 pages to find that thread. I think the pages I linked are a good enough referance as it is.
The Human Target 06-18-05, 02:35 AM	Just started a game. Boy is it a freaking hoot. Everyone has a chance to make some really deep and interesting characters. And I can throw some interesting challenges at them, since the group has so many different ablities. And actually, now it nice when we have some overlap, so the two people who have rogue levels can go sneak about together, yet also have some added pep from their wizard and cleric levels. Its just fun.
Telaria 06-18-05, 10:01 PM	We tried gestalting about 6 months ago, and quite frankly, everyone in the RPG troupe agrees that once you gestalt, there really is no coming back. Absolutely. You can make far more complex, dynamic characters with gestalt, and it's a lot easier to make a character who's good at _something_ relevant to the situation. Of course, there are a few issues. We've always made Level Adjustments apply to both sides, and in general, if you're playing a full sized group (4-5 characters) CRs definitely need to be tweaked. The usual rough rule we use is to take the book CR and subtract two versus a gestalt party, but it's not a guaranteed good result. The DM has to think through what he's doing a bit more.
gbnogkfs 06-18-05, 10:24 PM	Actually it's not a way of interpreting it. I pointed out that House Rule yes: a house rule! :D section because it spells out what a "progression" is. You're right that it's not clearly defined within the text of Gestalt, but it is not intirely up in the air. If you gimmie a min, I'll dig up a really good post on this subject and edit it in. no need. I've probably read more gestalt rules interpretation than I can count... :cool: ... How's that now? If you have to follow progressions for BAB/Saves, which means not simply adding the numbers in the columns but either 1) picking up where you previously left off, or 2) combining the total result from # levels good save, # levels poor, etc... - then logically, you cannot gain a higher base save than +12. Either you have less than 20 levels of good save, in which case your save will be <12, or you have 20 levels of good save in which case you have to pick up where you left off (such as Fighter 10/Barb 10 on one side would have 20 levels of good Fort) and would therefore not advance past +12. you're right: IF you follow the rules as you interpret it, you never get more than +12 as saves. but then, UA doesn't say that. it simply says nothing about how to exactly add toghether those saves when "multiclassing". Anyways, it is written. I didn't invent the words I reread as I posted this. it says what a "progression" is with respect to multiclassing? no way. however, in these precise days I have not UA available. In a couple of days, I will. Sure. Savage Progessions (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp). As far as how to apply LA, it's not that hard. You only have one XP amount. It's not like you have XP in both sides like 2E. Since you only have one XP total, it is that total that would be affected by LA. Maybe it's wrong to assume that you can just apply templated LA levels (that don't grant BAB, Saves, Skills, HD, etc), but I didn't think it was that big of a stretch. Although you're right, that part wouldn't strictly be "core." those are rules for savage progression, not fo gestalt savage progression... however, savage progressions "LA levels" are also those levels in which you do not get hd, bab, saves, skill points, feats etc... so one could argue you do not get them even with gestalt... Getsalt rules are just more a hint for an option than a detailed ruleset.
jaerad 06-19-05, 01:38 AM	yes: a house rule! :D Sigh. The house rule is encorporating the fractions at each level, not the progressions themselves. Maybe if you'd READ what I'm talking about instead of picking it apart to suit your own needs... no need. I've probably read more gestalt rules interpretation than I can count... :cool: Congrats? you're right: IF you follow the rules as you interpret it, you never get more than +12 as saves. but then, UA doesn't say that. it simply says nothing about how to exactly add toghether those saves when "multiclassing". Sure it does. It says quite clearly that you follow the better progression. The section on fractional BAB/saves is an example of a progression. And as I said before, the variant rule there has nothing to do with what a progression is. It's just about adding together the fractions inherant in the system so that a "normally" multiclassed Wiz/Rogue has a BAB of +1 instead of +0. The progression part of it is simply a referance to good, poor, and average progressions for BAB and saves. it says what a "progression" is with respect to multiclassing? no way. ...What do you mean in respect to multiclassing? Do you want BAB defined in respect to multiclassing as well? How about Bullrush, does that need to be defined within the context of multiclassing? Good, average, and poor BAB/Save progressions don't change when you multiclass. It's not like standard Rogue 1/Wizard 1's have a whole new category of BAB progression. however, in these precise days I have not UA available. In a couple of days, I will. Well, get back to me when you read the stuff I'm talking about. That would be a lot easier than just posting what you think you know. those are rules for savage progression, not fo gestalt savage progression... however, savage progressions "LA levels" are also those levels in which you do not get hd, bab, saves, skill points, feats etc... so one could argue you do not get them even with gestalt... I suppose one could make that arguement. One could argue that you'd have to take the "LA level" on both sides, thereby keeping you from getting any BAB, HD, etc. That would probably be a better ruling, since it's much more in keeping with the drawbacks for taking an LA level. Getsalt rules are just more a hint for an option than a detailed ruleset. If that is the case, than why are you arguing that Fighter 1/Sorc 19 + Wiz 20 has a BAB of +20? If it's not a detailed ruleset, than surely a great deal of common sense and balance-sense need to be used at all times. I've heard that the author wanted a Mature sticker on UA, since the stuff in there is for people mature enough to balance it in themselves. It's a nice urban legend even if untrue. I still don't understand how you think the term progression is undefined. The only time I've ever heard that term is in referance to good/avg/poor BAB and Save progressions. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd see if I could find that term used in a core book. But the point I've been trying to make is that progressions are defined, and on the same page as Gestalt. There's some other information in the same box, but only part of it is house rules. What definition of "progression" are you using? Let's try this one from Dictionary.com: pro·gres·sion n. 1. The process of progressing; progress. 2. Movement from one member of a continuous series to the next. 3. A continuous series; a sequence. See Synonyms at series. 4. Mathematics. A series of numbers or quantities in which there is always the same relation between each quantity and the one succeeding it. 5. Music. a. A succession of tones or chords. b. A series of repetitions of a phrase, each in a new position on the scale. The first definition doesn't do much for us, so let's look at 2. The movement. Not, "a list of numbers arranged in a set." It's talking about motion, change. So it's not about which number appears in the set, but the process by which the next number is created. This is the same meaning underlying 3. and 4. The progression for BAB in D&D is as follows: Good = HD, Average = 3/4 HD, Poor = 1/2 HD. ... Ack, I'll come back and tiddy this up later. I have to go meet a friend.
Kintara 06-19-05, 03:06 AM	An easy way to simplify the discussion about how gestalts work when you multiclass them is to make gestalts the only form of "multiclassing." No Fighter 1/Wizard 19:Sorcerer 20, or any 1/19 anything, for that matter. One class on one side, and one on the other. Or, if you must multiclass, enforce a rule that you must multiclass on both sides at the same time, and both of them must be different than either previous class. Combinations, once made, must be taken together. Go ahead and play a Fighter 10/Wizard 10:Cleric 10/Rogue 10, if you really want to. Prestige classes would need to be re-made to be powerful enough to take up both sides at once (more work for the DM, but then you know exactly what your PCs are going to be capable of). Leveling is much easier like this, almost like regular.
Xian Moon 06-19-05, 08:55 AM	wow, dms and players never cease to amaze me. i've been playing for nearly 16 years and i try to keep the game simple and fun. gestalt characters in my game simply have the best of two classes (HD, BA, Saves, etc.). you don't use prestige classes to create a gestalt character. you don't even need prestige classes if you allow gestalt characters. you don't use ECL +5 monsters with gesalt iether (unless you use monster progression from Savage Species) in which case why worry about ecl? in my game the players try to keep things simple so the flow is faster and i do too. we have used gestalt charaters on several occassion and had a lot of success with it. my advice is to keep it simple and fun
jaerad 06-19-05, 01:27 PM	you don't even need prestige classes if you allow gestalt characters. Well, there's some PrCs that you don't need (Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theruge, etc). But how can you get a Dwarven Defender's Defensive Stance w/o the PrC? What if you want the abilities of a Dervish? What if your player wants the simple flavor of an Assassin? The class abilities of a PrC can't be duplicated. Keeping it simple, not being a munchkin, and playing to have fun are not incompatible with using PrCs. To me, PrCs aren't just some power jump. They're a way of specializing and expanding your character concept. The flavor of a Dwarven Defender can't be found by just being a Fighter/Barbarian. Oh ya, what's wrong with playing ECL 5 monsters? It's a little more complicated - but the thing is that as long as everyone in the party has the same LA, it doesn't matter at all. They'll all level up at the same rate, have the same amount of money, skill points, HD, etc etc. And monster HD would probably function like any other class - take it on one side. If a player wants to be a Teifling, what's wrong with that? I understand not wanting to deal with Mind Flayers and other weird-looking monsters; them being chased out of towns, having to use Disguise Self (what happens when the town is wary and has Detect Magic running?), etc. But that's doesn't have much to do with the power levels of the monsters, it's just limiting your players to simple Humanish (humanoid, but that's a game term and some races are still pretty normal looking). Anyways. Not trying to pounce all over you, just pointing out why some of us like to incorporate that stuff even with Gestalt. Your method is actually a really good one. People get tunnel-vision and forget that a well made Fighter 20 is actually really powerful. Keeping it to base races/classes will actually show how great those classes really can be.
gbnogkfs 06-20-05, 01:21 AM	I have read UA and gestalt rules many times to try to figure out how to apply those rules, and to see if any interpretation I read on the boards are correct or not. the only conclusion I worked out is that there are many ways to correctly handling those, and all are different. let's have a look at the "progression" table on PHB where we see the Poor/Good saves progression. we see that the bad saves start at +0 at first level and get +1 every third level, while the good saves start at +2 and get +1 every second level. that's all what d&d rules say about saves progression. If I'm wrong, please correct me. Now get to gestalt rules. I take a Ftr/wiz at first level, and I get Fort +2, Ref +0, and Will +2. right? then at second level I take Clr/Rog. now, the cleric has good Fort and Will saves, while the rogue has good Ref saves. Being this the first level of cleric, and seeing that the cleric advancement table say that cleric at first level get +2 Fort and Will, I conclude that my character get those "+2"s. the same goes for Ref saves and the rogue first level. So I get +2 to all saves, and end up with Fort +4, Ref +2, and Will +4. Where exactely do you think I violated UA rules? Or another issue: you say all levels that have a good fort save must be set apart and contribute to have the save andvancing in the appropriate column of the table. Fine. But why considering each class with its own progression is wrong? I expect that when I add the fourth level of the cleric class I get +1 to BAB, because that's what written in the cleric BAB progression. One last thing: i do not say the ftr-sor/wiz MUST HAVE a +20 BAB. I say that is one way of interpreting the rules. That exemple I took was made, of course, on purpose to: 1) ask for clarification on how the multiclassing should work 2) show that the ambiguity on the gestalt rules is high when regarding to multiclassing. Of course common sense must be used, and that's why I made such an example: being sure that everyone would consider that "wrong", I forced everybody to formulate precise rules about gestalt multiclassing. Common sense is OK, but we have to start from somewhere... Were we in 2ed time, I would not be surprised by the lack of precise mechanics, but in the era of 3.x math madness the UA rules are quite lacking in precision. oh, no flame, just plain "simple" discussion
jaerad 06-20-05, 04:16 AM	then at second level I take Clr/Rog. now, the cleric has good Fort and Will saves, while the rogue has good Ref saves. Being this the first level of cleric, and seeing that the cleric advancement table say that cleric at first level get +2 Fort and Will, I conclude that my character get those "+2"s. the same goes for Ref saves and the rogue first level. So I get +2 to all saves, and end up with Fort +4, Ref +2, and Will +4. Where exactely do you think I violated UA rules? In a way, you answered it yourself. You followed the cleric's advancement, not the save progression. The save progressions are clearly divided into two types, good and poor. Since it states to follow the progression, not class advancement table, than I would think you have to follow in line with the progression itself. Sure the class advancement table is based off of set progressions, but it says to follow the progression. I think the telling part of the Gestalt rules is that it continues to make referances to "progression." It could have left it at "take the better of the two classes." Instead, it states something different. Granted, they didn't take the time to actually spell out what they meant, but they did take the time to specify the use of a "progression." Since this must be somehow different from the better of the two classes (otherwise the change in terms is just confusing and stupid), and it is shown in an adjacent - although seperate - section, I think I have a pretty good leg to stand on for following straight progressions. Granted, there is some ambiguity in the reading because the authors failed to explain the terms they were using (or to show an example past level 1, jeez). But this is a book for DMs in the first place, so maybe they expected us to know what a progression is. It is a term I've seen used a lot to discuss D&D (such as pointing out that a class has a "good BAB progression").
gbnogkfs 06-20-05, 10:41 AM	ok, let's rephrase the matter. the word "progression" never appears in the PHB with regarding to BAB and saves. so I freely interpret the "choose the better progression" (these are the only word used in gestalt rules) as "apply from the two modifications to the stat that the two class levels are giving me the one which is higher". sticking with core rules and with your vocabulary definition of "progression". P.S. The "has a good Fort save progression" may have a sense when applied to a single class, but has not when applied to a character, especially multiclassed.
jaerad 06-20-05, 01:58 PM	"If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect." Instead of using this wording again when it gives the mechanics for BAB/saves, it changes from "the better aspect" to the "better progression." The first paragraph repeats that you choose the best aspect from each class each level. Whereas, once it starts talking about them individually, it switches to the term "progression." Why switch to saying progression? The term progression may not appear in the PHB or DMG (too lazy to confirm that), but that doesn't mean that it does not have meaning w/in the D&D setting. But it is talked about in the sidebar for Fractional Base Bonuses. Furthermore: The "has a good Fort save progression" may have a sense when applied to a single class, but has not when applied to a character, especially multiclassed. The term is accepted by you to mean the progression a particular class has with regards to Fort save (for this example). Sure, it doesn't make much sense to apply the term to a multiclassed character that has multiple progressions (such as 3 levels of good and 2 of poor). But we can say what I just said. How many levels of which progression? A Barb 10/Fighter 10 has 20 levels of Good Fort save*, 20 levels of Good BAB, etc. Whereas a Bard 10/Fighter 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB, 10 of medium (3/4 HD) BAB, yeilding a total BAB of 17. What progression of BAB is this? It isn't a progression, it's the combination of two progressions. With Gestalt, you follow the faster progression at each level. A Gestalt Fighter 10/Bard 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB progression, for a BAB of 10. A Gestalt Fighter 3/Bard 10/Wiz 7 has 3 levels of Good, 10 of medium, and 7 of Poor. The Good will be taken in place of the medium for it's 3 levels, and the medium will override the poor for the other 7 levels. So you would have +3 from Good, and 5 from Medium, total +8. If at the next level you were to take another Fighter/Bard combination, you would progress to 4 levels of Good BAB, giving you a total of +9. Now let's look at the oft exampled Fighter 1/Sorc 19/Wiz 20. 1 level of Good BAB, 19 levels of poor BAB. +1 + +9 = +10. The thing about following progressions is that it takes more thought. You have to look back at what you've gotten before, rather than just following the table as you level. Looking at it the way I've shown (as 19 levels of poor BAB), one can see that there must be some flaw in having a +20 BAB. *Now we come back to Saves. Looking back at the # of levels in a progression, we see that a Fighter 10/Barb 10/<whatever> 20 has 20 levels of Good Fort, resulting in a +12 save. This is opposed to the +14 gotten through "normal" gaming. I've tried to ask if save DCs were balanced assuming +12 was max, or if they're balanced assuming multiclassing and an easy +14 (let alone +20s). No one wanted to even speculate on that question though. Anywho, I'ma go get some breakfast. Hope you're enjoying this as much as I am. 'Cause this is fun. It's nice to see some good counterpoints, though I think I'm running out of options for counter-counters. Psh, I'm already just repeating myself. :)
LordGilwen 06-20-05, 02:21 PM	"If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect." Instead of using this wording again when it gives the mechanics for BAB/saves, it changes from "the better aspect" to the "better progression." The first paragraph repeats that you choose the best aspect from each class each level. Whereas, once it starts talking about them individually, it switches to the term "progression." Why switch to saying progression? The term progression may not appear in the PHB or DMG (too lazy to confirm that), but that doesn't mean that it does not have meaning w/in the D&D setting. But it is talked about in the sidebar for Fractional Base Bonuses. Furthermore: The term is accepted by you to mean the progression a particular class has with regards to Fort save (for this example). Sure, it doesn't make much sense to apply the term to a multiclassed character that has multiple progressions (such as 3 levels of good and 2 of poor). But we can say what I just said. How many levels of which progression? A Barb 10/Fighter 10 has 20 levels of Good Fort save*, 20 levels of Good BAB, etc. Whereas a Bard 10/Fighter 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB, 10 of medium (3/4 HD) BAB, yeilding a total BAB of 17. What progression of BAB is this? It isn't a progression, it's the combination of two progressions. With Gestalt, you follow the faster progression at each level. A Gestalt Fighter 10/Bard 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB progression, for a BAB of 10. A Gestalt Fighter 3/Bard 10/Wiz 7 has 3 levels of Good, 10 of medium, and 7 of Poor. The Good will be taken in place of the medium for it's 3 levels, and the medium will override the poor for the other 7 levels. So you would have +3 from Good, and 5 from Medium, total +8. If at the next level you were to take another Fighter/Bard combination, you would progress to 4 levels of Good BAB, giving you a total of +9. Now let's look at the oft exampled Fighter 1/Sorc 19/Wiz 20. 1 level of Good BAB, 19 levels of poor BAB. +1 + +9 = +10. The thing about following progressions is that it takes more thought. You have to look back at what you've gotten before, rather than just following the table as you level. Looking at it the way I've shown (as 19 levels of poor BAB), one can see that there must be some flaw in having a +20 BAB. *Now we come back to Saves. Looking back at the # of levels in a progression, we see that a Fighter 10/Barb 10/<whatever> 20 has 20 levels of Good Fort, resulting in a +12 save. This is opposed to the +14 gotten through "normal" gaming. I've tried to ask if save DCs were balanced assuming +12 was max, or if they're balanced assuming multiclassing and an easy +14 (let alone +20s). No one wanted to even speculate on that question though. Anywho, I'ma go get some breakfast. Hope you're enjoying this as much as I am. 'Cause this is fun. It's nice to see some good counterpoints, though I think I'm running out of options for counter-counters. Psh, I'm already just repeating myself. :) Great points and a good explanation. Although I am at odds still about the saves. Gil
gbnogkfs 06-20-05, 10:04 PM	"If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect." Instead of using this wording again when it gives the mechanics for BAB/saves, it changes from "the better aspect" to the "better progression." The first paragraph repeats that you choose the best aspect from each class each level. Whereas, once it starts talking about them individually, it switches to the term "progression." Why switch to saying progression? The term progression may not appear in the PHB or DMG (too lazy to confirm that), but that doesn't mean that it does not have meaning w/in the D&D setting. But it is talked about in the sidebar for Fractional Base Bonuses. Furthermore: The term is accepted by you to mean the progression a particular class has with regards to Fort save (for this example). Sure, it doesn't make much sense to apply the term to a multiclassed character that has multiple progressions (such as 3 levels of good and 2 of poor). But we can say what I just said. How many levels of which progression? A Barb 10/Fighter 10 has 20 levels of Good Fort save*, 20 levels of Good BAB, etc. Whereas a Bard 10/Fighter 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB, 10 of medium (3/4 HD) BAB, yeilding a total BAB of 17. What progression of BAB is this? It isn't a progression, it's the combination of two progressions. With Gestalt, you follow the faster progression at each level. A Gestalt Fighter 10/Bard 10 has 10 levels of Good BAB progression, for a BAB of 10. A Gestalt Fighter 3/Bard 10/Wiz 7 has 3 levels of Good, 10 of medium, and 7 of Poor. The Good will be taken in place of the medium for it's 3 levels, and the medium will override the poor for the other 7 levels. So you would have +3 from Good, and 5 from Medium, total +8. If at the next level you were to take another Fighter/Bard combination, you would progress to 4 levels of Good BAB, giving you a total of +9. Now let's look at the oft exampled Fighter 1/Sorc 19/Wiz 20. 1 level of Good BAB, 19 levels of poor BAB. +1 + +9 = +10. The thing about following progressions is that it takes more thought. You have to look back at what you've gotten before, rather than just following the table as you level. Looking at it the way I've shown (as 19 levels of poor BAB), one can see that there must be some flaw in having a +20 BAB. *Now we come back to Saves. Looking back at the # of levels in a progression, we see that a Fighter 10/Barb 10/<whatever> 20 has 20 levels of Good Fort, resulting in a +12 save. This is opposed to the +14 gotten through "normal" gaming. I've tried to ask if save DCs were balanced assuming +12 was max, or if they're balanced assuming multiclassing and an easy +14 (let alone +20s). No one wanted to even speculate on that question though. Anywho, I'ma go get some breakfast. Hope you're enjoying this as much as I am. 'Cause this is fun. It's nice to see some good counterpoints, though I think I'm running out of options for counter-counters. Psh, I'm already just repeating myself. :) I'm enjoing, but, really, I don't see any point in continuing. I see you have a nice interpretation, then I don't quite get that it is the only possible; "progression" is an advancement from a state to the next one, the difference between two values; the simplest way would be choose the better one. Umbalanced? Yeah, maybe; that was my point in trying to understand how it worked. In any case, if ever I use gestalt, I'll use the fractional saves/BAB, which I fount simple and give a result quite similar to yours...
Owatkiam 06-21-05, 09:57 AM	While I think Jaerad is more on point from a purely technical standpoint on saves, I do have to agree with the KISS principle here...keep it simple stupid... as well.... just use the better save for each. I don't personally believe that if PCs are Gestalt, that means NPCs also are Gestalt as a general rule. Yes, I know that flies a bit in the face of the book... but 2 points come into play here... first I don't want to make creating NPCs even longer for what I consider "tier 2 importance" (more detail than the flunkies, but not as much as the main baddies) and second, from my perspective Gestalt characters take the "PCs are special" concept to a higher level (no pun intended).... only those NPCs who are also special should be Gestalt (otherwise Gestalt Adept/Expert anyone? Great for Eberron campaigns...) This is really just reintroducing something that was a feature of most smaller games I played in 1E and 2E... multiclassing the old fashioned way. To that end, I think that if you Gestalt class, you should be limited on doing what would be considered more like dual classing in 1E/2E... no changing your classes unless you do as mentioned above and change BOTH.
lostone 06-21-05, 02:13 PM	My group is playing a gestalt game (it's on hold for a while but we had been playing it). I like it, but there seems to be confusion on how it works, everyone in my group interpreted it slightly differently. So if you are the DM I would recommend having all characters created with you one at a time, and leveling up as a group so that everyone is consistent. Until they understand how you want it to be handled. The easiest way for me was to have my group tell me what classes they plan on taking for their character (including prestige classes) and I built a spreadsheet for each character showing what bonuses they get each level and printed it out for them. That way they can level up on their own with no confusion. That way everyone is on the same page.
gbnogkfs 06-22-05, 04:37 AM	there seems to be confusion on how it works, everyone in my group interpreted it slightly differently. yeah; pretty much what I intended.
Nurgan_the_drunked 06-22-05, 10:02 AM	wow, dms and players never cease to amaze me. i've been playing for nearly 16 years and i try to keep the game simple and fun. gestalt characters in my game simply have the best of two classes (HD, BA, Saves, etc.). you don't use prestige classes to create a gestalt character. you don't even need prestige classes if you allow gestalt characters. you don't use ECL +5 monsters with gesalt iether (unless you use monster progression from Savage Species) in which case why worry about ecl? in my game the players try to keep things simple so the flow is faster and i do too. we have used gestalt charaters on several occassion and had a lot of success with it. my advice is to keep it simple and fun My group does this sort of "pure" gestalt: two classes, one of the based on race and region of origin. For HD, roll both and take best. PrC's are done as "secret organisation": You have to find a group in the world with a suitable concept, and train with them, gaining PrC's special abilities every 5th level. It's working quite well, been going about a year now. The group is fairly large (9 people or so) and it still seems that there are assigned party roles, but people tend to be more flexible about them, as they have more ability to do things outside of their field.