Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ka'loss 06-18-04, 06:11 AM	Hi all, I've got a bit of a problem for an upcoming campaign. I intend to use the gestalt rules as they solve a few problems for me, but they also create a couple. The biggest problem is that I am trying (and so far failing) to work out a system that will allow a player to play a straigh rogue that is balanced against other gestalt player characters. As to paint the bigger picture - in the game, monks and paladins take up both 'slots' of the gestalt, and Priests (cleric and druid are not used), are much like clerics but d4 hit dice, only strong will, and no armour or weapon proficiencies The problem is the same for wizards, fighters, and prephaps priests (as in normal cleric). Any help would be great Kal
Moonstonedragon 06-18-04, 09:26 AM	I tried gestalt once, ill never do it again lol as far as trying to work out a good balanced system for one, it aint going to happen
Pagan priest 06-18-04, 02:20 PM	Ka'loss, it sounds like you want to nerf the monk and paladin. In a lot of ways, it seems like you don't really want to do a gestalt game. Moonstonedragon, what problems did you come up against? I am thinking about running a gestalt game soon...
JDeMobray 06-18-04, 07:07 PM	Originally posted by Ka'loss Hi all, I've got a bit of a problem for an upcoming campaign. I intend to use the gestalt rules as they solve a few problems for me, but they also create a couple. The biggest problem is that I am trying (and so far failing) to work out a system that will allow a player to play a straigh rogue that is balanced against other gestalt player characters.Good lord, why? It says right in the book that trying to balance a normal, single classed character with a gestalt is a bad idea. It pretty much has to be all or nothing for it to work. As to paint the bigger picture - in the game, monks and paladins take up both 'slots' of the gestalt, I can't really parse this part of your post. From what I can figure out, you are of the opinion that you cannot use a Paladin/X or Monk/X gestalt due to the multi-classing restrictions. I don't believe that is the case, but I do admit the language could be more clear. I think the intent with the gestalt Paladin and Monk is that so long as one of their gestalt levels is still Paladin or Monk they can continue to advance "normally". For example, a character could begin play as a Paladin/Sorceror and at second level become a Paladin/Rogue and at third level switch back to a Paladin/Sorceror again without penalty. and Priests (cleric and druid are not used), are much like clerics but d4 hit dice, only strong will, and no armour or weapon proficiencies The problem is the same for wizards, fighters, and prephaps priests (as in normal cleric).Is this a house-ruled class of some kind? I'm not sure I understand the problem you're having here, either.
Moonstonedragon 06-19-04, 01:46 AM	My problem with it was that no one did it to RP, it was a way to overcome the classes weakness Like the Good old Sorcerer/Barbarian= only weakness of a sorcerer is the fact they have little HP and weak attack, now with gestalt that aint a problem, they now got more hp then common fighter and mage to boot. Monk/rogue= Ohhh dont get me started on two weapon fighting, flurry of blows, WITH sneak attack and so on, my one friend does gestalt and i try not to powergame it, im only a samurai/sohei but one friend is Mage/cleric (castes powerful spells all day) monk/ranger, barbarian/mage Basically alot of people get the most powerful combinating even if it doesnt make sense (monk/ranger?, barbarian/mage?) ANd dont even get me started on PrCs
Riznar 06-19-04, 02:05 AM	If you want people to RP with gestalt, have them decide what their combination adds up to. Gestalt shouldn't be considered the same way normal multiclassing is, it completely changes the game world. Of course, my group threw most of the flavor text associated with the classes out the window long ago. Some would knee-jerk and call us powergamers, but we're just creative. (My players suck too much to be powergamers:D ) And my only problem with kung fu rangers is that all those attacks make their turn take forever. Barbarian/mage has its own problems mechanically, but who says that barbarians have to be stupid or crass?
JDeMobray 06-19-04, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by Moonstonedragon My problem with it was that no one did it to RP, it was a way to overcome the classes weaknessWell, to be fair, with most of the possible gestalt combos it is hard to avoid strengthening one of the classes weaknesses. I see that as a testament to how well balanced the classes are to begin with. But gestalt characters aren't supposed to be balanced with the core classes; they're on their own completely seperate scale, and when you're playing one you should try to divorce yourself from previous expectations as to the strengths of a given class.
Ka'loss 06-19-04, 05:20 PM	I'm not trying to nerf the paladin and monk - I just like the idea that it takes your entire focus to walk those paths - as such I'm having them take up both slots of Gestalt - as such, I'm giving them both a power bump to (hopefully) keep them balanced against 'normal' gestalt characters. The priests are a homebrew class of sorts, as i believe that a priest of a rogue god shouldnt go round in full plate wielding a mace. The gestalt solves this by simply dropping a lot of the priests mundane abilities to a bottom base line and letting the second class of the gestalt combination bring them back up to a level similar to what the god is. As such the priests also have a bit of a power increase in their magical and holy areas. The actual question was how to balance out a 'straight' rogue against gestalt characters. The only idea I have come up with so far (and its a bad) is a let class 'dual-class' (rogue/rogue) so that you can be a pure rogue etc and you will still be balanced against other gestalt classes. But I really dont like the idea. So I am asking the nice people of these boards if they can help at all. Sorry about the first post as it wasnt all that clear. Kal
Lu Baihu 06-20-04, 01:56 AM	How does one "re-balance" a campaign setting for a gestalt game?
Lu Baihu 06-20-04, 01:57 AM	How does one "re-balance" a campaign setting for a gestalt game? That is, with pre-existing NPCs ...
Ka'loss 06-20-04, 05:14 AM	Thats not too bad, as all npcs that have stats also have their owverall level and a description of what they do and stuff. Adding the second class isnt that much of a problem. In the Gestalt rules it says that any NPC that has class levels has to be a gestalt character. Kal
Pagan priest 06-20-04, 04:41 PM	Originally posted by Ka'loss I'm not trying to nerf the paladin and monk - I just like the idea that it takes your entire focus to walk those paths - as such I'm having them take up both slots of Gestalt - as such, I'm giving them both a power bump to (hopefully) keep them balanced against 'normal' gestalt characters. Gestalt monk/fighter... a martial artist heavily involved in the combat side of his kung fu as well as the meditative side. Monk/Sorcerer... channeling his internal ki powers to affect both himself and the world around him in strange, mysterious ways. Monk/Cleric... long years of training at the temple have taught him how to work the will of the Gods as he works to perfect his own body. Etc, etc, etc, for most of the other classes, same thing can be said of paladins as well. Doesn't work with barbarian or bard, obviously. No need to nerf them at all. Or perorm stange, contortionistic balancing acts to give them baqck the powered nerfed away by not letting them gestalt with the other characters.
BrianMc223 06-20-04, 05:05 PM	Its been said alredy, but why are you even playing Gesalt. About the only reason I can see to play gesult is having less than 4 players.
Lu Baihu 06-20-04, 11:09 PM	Originally posted by Ka'loss In the Gestalt rules it says that any NPC that has class levels has to be a gestalt character.Huh?? I didn't get this - are you saying that a gestalt character's class levels should be doubled (with appropriate BAB/save adjustments?)
Degobah 06-21-04, 03:49 AM	We're planning on playing with Gestalt soon, and the characters are pretty horrific. I'd have to ask why someone wants to play a straight rogue. Most likely there has to be some other class he could combine with it that wouldn't alter the character flavour too much, even if its Bard or Expert. Or even let him gestalt standard rogue/bonus feat rogue. Another option might be just to increase his ability scores to balance him. Which is something that might work for monks and paladins as well- if you use say 25-pt buy gestalts and 40-pt buy single class characters they'd probably be balanced. Monk and paladin are two classes that really need lots of good stats, so they could just be forced to be single-class and still get the bonus and it could work.
Ertai Planeswalker 06-22-04, 06:02 AM	A Gestalt needs 150% of normal Xp. If you combine normal and gestalt players, this means the Gestalt player will start lagging in levels. I just posted a complete Xp table up to level 40 in another thread. 150% Xp comes down to a 33% Xp penalty btw.
Veton 06-22-04, 07:29 PM	Originally posted by Ertai Planeswalker A Gestalt needs 150% of normal Xp. If you combine normal and gestalt players, this means the Gestalt player will start lagging in levels. I just posted a complete Xp table up to level 40 in another thread. 150% Xp comes down to a 33% Xp penalty btw. And as I said in the other thread, that only applies to multiclassing in the regular class system. When you use Gestalt, it's a whole 'nother system. Besides, the Gestalt varient was made based on the idea that all PCs and important NPCs are Gestalts, not just one or two PCs.
SirisC 06-22-04, 08:44 PM	I'd say if you are going to make the Paladin and the monk single class choices in a gesalt campaign, do this. Redesign the Paladin using a gesalt fighter/Cleric as a comparison for how strong s/he should be. Not sure what to do for Monk. I'd probably instead create a small list of classes they can gesalt with. like fighter, priest, rogue, psychic warrior, psion, sohei, shaman, and samurai
Kaya Kenobi 06-23-04, 03:19 AM	I've been DMing a gestalt campaign for a while. The only way to balance it with straight characters is give gestalts an XP penalty. 15%. That way the straight character gets ahead. The problems I see with gestalts is that sometimes they're too far thinned out. I am currently playing in a gestalt campaign, and I am playing a Fighter/Bard gestalt, and it works out nicely. Another person is going wizard/cleric, and it's hurting with the fact that 3-4 stats needs to be decent to work properly. Also, why do you have the priest so weak? That may be why it's not being played. As for why a wizard's not being touched, I have no clue..
Slippery Mind II 06-24-04, 04:30 PM	Originally posted by Ka'loss In the Gestalt rules it says that any NPC that has class levels has to be a gestalt character. While it is recommended, it is certainly not a requirement. And it doesn't say "any" either. I know I certainly don't feel beholden to that "rule", especially considering the NPC classes. I think people are reading too much into a certain aspect of gestalt and in other areas too little. For example, one person tries to explain the existance of gestalts but there is no support in the rules for such, then you have players that want to gestalt Eldritch Knight, etc, where it is clearly suggested that such PrCs should not be allowed and gives a very valid reason for that restriction. While it is not necessarily prohibited, just like NPCs being gestalt, it is recommended.