Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gestalt_Commoner 02-24-04, 02:43 PM	what about gestalt races? like being an elf/dwarf (dwelf?) u would get dex and con but lose con and cha!! but u would be sweet and have a bow AND axe prof!!!! and u could be wizard or fighter for favored class wow u could be like a gnome/half-orc monk/sorceror GESTALT!!!! some levels in blckguard and u r set. whut u think?
SykeXero 02-24-04, 03:06 PM	I think you need to chill out. Lay off the coffee/mellow yellow/efadrine for a few days and try to proof-read your posts before you submit them. Back to the subject. You are just sugesting half-races under a different name. If you want to discuss this go to the Player's Handbook / Races forum.
Gestalt_Commoner 02-24-04, 03:20 PM	srry i get so excited like all these ideas i get maybe i should wortk at wotc they can pay me for my ideas OMG thatg would ruelst!!! no not haflf races because those suck (like halve elves) i mean gestalt races, best of both, so u get the phat bonuses of both but no bad things!! gestalt races + gestalt classes + gestalt feats!!! u would rock hard core i mean but then i could throw the same thing at the players with gestalt monsters! like an orc that is gestalt with ogre so it's an orc with a large club!! see sweet
SykeXero 02-24-04, 04:11 PM	I see your logic on this but could you please clarify on exactly how this would occur? Are you talking about Dr. Gerrous'(sp) Cell from DBZ? Or are you just on some sort of munchkin power-trip? P.S. Munchkin means someone who uses every single loophole in the rules to gain as much power as possible. It is also used as an insult.
Banpai 02-24-04, 06:55 PM	Stop right now! Stop posting Gestalt_Commoner you have done so often enough already today. You are not going to get many friends on this boards if you continue like that. I am serious and in the worst case the moderators will have bannend you before you have posted the 50th post.
ikki 02-24-04, 07:25 PM	That idea actually has some merit, maybe as a SS race coupled with a ordinary class. Take efret (lvl19) and some normal class, then go along like in gestaltrules. Should make for some intresting characters ;) Efreti19/sorcerer20/Acm1 (as a lvl 20 dude)
Insancipitory By Nature 02-25-04, 03:44 AM	Originally posted by SykeXero I think you need to chill out. Lay off the coffee/mellow yellow/efadrine for a few days and try to proof-read your posts before you submit them. I'd probablly lay off the spelling lames if I was tossing out gems like "Campain." But what do I know? PS - For future reference, a Troll is not extreme hyperbole or flamebait in an effort to obtain responses. But rather, it is an artfull construction that cleverly presents a patently false idea, that could in no way be interpreted as serious, in an attempt to illicit corrections, or outright assualts from people who think they know better than they do. A good example of a troll would be, "There are no shadows in space."
WizO_TheCheat 02-25-04, 09:48 AM	The topic of conversation is setting up gestalt races. Not other people's spelling habits or their previous posts. Either discuss the topic or I will be forced to send out emails.
Magus_Extreme 02-25-04, 01:50 PM	Originally posted by WizO_TheCheat The topic of conversation is setting up gestalt races. Not other people's spelling habits or their previous posts. Either discuss the topic or I will be forced to send out emails. actually, this guy is spamming the boards and being a 10-year-old troll, taking things way out of context. he wasn't really wanting to set up race gestalts, he's just wigging out. all comments here are on his immaturity and desire for him to stop spamming the boards.
WizO_TheCheat 02-25-04, 02:12 PM	We, being the WizO's not the royal we, are aware of that and have dealt with the other threads. But at least 1 separate poster has shown interest in the concept of Gestalt racial combinations. I am hoping for that person's sake and anybody else interested in the idea behind the thread, regardless of original intent, might be allowed to continue.
JoAT 02-25-04, 04:43 PM	Despite the OP, this is a good idea - or at least something that needs to be addressed. - How does one utilize ECL and LA adjusted races when useing Gestalt characters? I'm currently toying with the idea of attatching the LA scores to racial hit dice directly, or directly to something like racial paragon classes... I'm somewhat leery of gestalting such with normal classes, at least, until there's nothing but Monster HD left for those with more HD than LA...
Sabis 02-25-04, 10:33 PM	Hmm... for non-standard race,s i'd say you take say.... half dragon, is 3ECL, so counts as 3 levels... thus could only start in a 3rd level game, and would be liek half-elf/halfdragon(3)/Sorcerer3. Taht way, it's still a huge penalty for the stuff you receive. And then, you could do silly things by the letter ofhte rules... like become Sorc4/Half elf paragon 1, and then huamn paragon 3/half dragon paragon 3, and then the last 2 half elf and 2 more sorc... overall that all results in Half DragonP 3(6)/HumanP3/Half-ElfP3/Sorc6, leaving you at 9th level sorcerer spells, with 12th caster level, at level 9. that's the scaryness of a gestalt w/ non-standard races, and paragon races.
JoAT 02-25-04, 11:53 PM	Methinks you've misunderstood what I said... or else I misconstrued what you said. When I said mentioned attaching the template to racial hit dice, I was actually refering to (well, heck, since I've been working on it anyways...) Something like this: Half-Dragon Gestlat Racial Class Hit Dice: d12 Skills: Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spot (Wis). In addition, each Half Dragon gains the following class skills based on it's parent dragon type: Black:Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), and Swim (Str). Blue:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int). Brass:Bluff (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), and Survival (Wis). Bronze:Disguise (Cha), Survival (Wis), and swim (Str). Copper:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Jump (Str). Gold:Disguise (Cha), Heal (Wis) and Swim (Str). Green:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Move Silently (Dex). Red:Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), and Jump (Str). Silver:Bluff (cha), Jump (Str), and Perform (Cha). White:Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), and Swim (Str). Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier. Table: The Half-Dragon Gestalt Racial Class Fort Ref Will Level BAB Save Save Save Special 1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Str +2, Int +2, resistance (lesser), Sorcerous blood, natural armor +2, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision 2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Str +2, Con +2, resistance (greater), 2 claws, bite, natural armor +2, breath weapon 3d8, immunities (lesser) 3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Str +4, Cha +2, immunities (greater), wings, natural armor +1, breath weapon 6d8 3/day, dragon type Class features: All of the following are class features of the half-dragon gestalt racial class. Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Half Dragons gain no proficiency with any weapons or armor. Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted. Resistances (Ex): A half-dragon has energy resistance 10 to one type of energy. The specific type is determined by the dragon kind that provided the benefits of the template, according to the following table. Dragon Energy Type Variety Resisted Black Acid Blue Electricity Brass Fire Bronze Electricity Copper Acid Gold Fire Green Acid Red Fire Silver Cold White Cold At 2nd level, this resistance increases to 20. At 3rd level, the half-dragon becomes completely immune to the indicated energy type (see Immunities, below). Sorcerous blood (Ex): A character's half dragon levels stack with sorcerer levels for purposes of determining the caster level of arcane spells granted through sorcerer levels. Natural Armor Improvements: At every level of the prestige class, the half-dragon's natural armor bonus increases by the indicated amount. A character that does not normally have a natural armor bonus (such as a human) is considered to have an initial natural armor bonus of +0 for the purpose of this ability. Thus, a human's natural armor bonus would increase to +2 at 1st level, to +4 at 2nd level, and finally to +5 at 3rd level. Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level the half-dragon gains darkvision to a 60-foot range. Low-Light Vision (Ex): At 1st level, the half-dragon gains low-light vision. Claws: At 2nd level, the half-dragon gains two claw attacks if she didn't already have them. For the base damage of the half-dragon's claw attacks, use the appropriate value from the table below if the base creature did not previously have claw attacks. If she did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's claw damage, whichever is better. The half-dragon's claws are natural attacks. Bite: At 2nd level, the half-dragon gains a bite attack if she didn't already have one. For the base damage of the half-dragon's bite attack, use the appropriate value from the table below if the base creature did not previously have a bite attack. If she did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's bite damage, whichever is better. The half-dragon's bite is a natural attack. Size Bite Claw Damage Damage Fine 1 -- Diminutive 1d2 1 Tiny 1d3 1d2 Small 1d4 1d3 Medium 1d6 1d4 Large 1d8 1d6 Huge 2d6 1d8 Gargantuan 3d6 2d6 Colossal 4d6 3d6 Breath Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a half-dragon gains a breath weapon similar to that of the dragon that provided the benefits of the template. The breath weapon is usable once per day, until third level, and allows a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 half-dragon's racial HD + half-dragon's Constitution modifier) for half damage. The shape and size of the breath weapon are given by the following table. Dragon Breath Variety Weapon Black 60-foot line of acid Blue 60-foot line of lightning Brass 60-foot line of fire Bronze 60-foot line of lightning Copper 60-foot line of acid Gold 30-foot cone of fire Green 30-foot cone of corrosive (acid) gas Red 30-foot cone of fire Silver 30-foot cone of cold White 30-foot cone of cold When first acquired, the breath weapon deals only 3d8 points of damage. When the half-dragon reaches 3rd level, the base damage for the breath weapon increases to 6d8. Also, at third level, the half-dragon may use her innate breath weapon three times per day (but only once every 1d4 rounds) Immunities (Ex): At 2nd level, the half-dragon becomes immune to sleep and paralysis. When she reaches 3rd level, her template-based energy resistance (see Resistances, above) is replaced by total immunity to that energy type. Wings (Ex): At 3rd level, a Large or larger half-dragon grows fully functional wings and may use them to fly at up to twice her land speed (maximum 120 feet) with average maneuverability. A Medium or smaller half-dragon either does not grow wings or grows nonfunctional vestigial ones. Dragon Type: At 3rd level, the half-dragon completes her metamorphosis, and her type changes to dragon. She becomes vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the dragon type but is immune to effects that target her original type. For example, a half-human/half-dragon would be subject to the extra damage from a dragon bane sword, but she is immune to hold person because that spell affects only humanoids. Note that this is a combination of the Paragon class for Half dragons, and the template class levels from Savage Progressions (found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a) ). Ack... I hope that I don't get in trouble for this... Errr, I'll go with the idea that it's easier to beg forgiveness, and keep it, anyways - it's something of an interpretation on two open concepts, so it should not be a big deal... I think. Anyways, this gives you a very solid progression, and means that you don't have to combine the racial paragon and the half-dragon's LA with other classes, something that, to my mind would seem rather... weird. It doesn't give me a good feel, I guess. Actually, it's a good thing that the topic at hand turned out to be half-dragons, because the three paragon levels match quite nicely with the LA of the race - templates without a paragon would be do-able, though it it were not a big template that seems to deserve it's own, I'd say stick it along side the paragon of your current race. Things like Ogres and such would be weird as well, but do-able.
CompleteSatori 02-26-04, 12:41 AM	Actually I think that the Commoners original intent was to run 2 races SIMULTANEOUSLY on the same character... Say a 4th level Gestalt character with Elf-Ranger4 and Dwarf-Fighter4. This, of course, is silly as hells, so no need to address it. As for LA/ECL and Gestalt, I just changed a high level campaign to Gestalt to make up for the lack of players (only 3) in a high powered campaign, and the cohort is a Nymph. Originally a Nymph/Bard/Geomancer, this character saw a revamp. I found during playtesting that in the case of racial hit die + LA it was best to run those HD and LA along one 'side' of the Gestalt line, ie: Favored Soul1/Nymph1 Favored Soul2/Nymph2 etc, until the Nymphs ECL of 13 is met, then continue class progression on the Nymph 'side' until 20, as usual. The first 'side' would see all 20 levels uninterrupted, with PrCs or whatever, as you see fit. Make sense? Cause it shoor did in play, and was alot less bulky. The alternative, when playing a low level game with high ECL creatures is the same as it always was, if there isnt a level based ECL class like WoTC has put out on Wizards.com, then you cant take the race/template. Simple. Either that, or just make your own, but watch for balance.
JoAT 02-26-04, 01:05 AM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori Actually I think that the Commoners original intent was to run 2 races SIMULTANEOUSLY on the same character... Say a 4th level Gestalt character with Elf-Ranger4 and Dwarf-Fighter4. I know, it's just.... This, of course, is silly as hells, so no need to address it. Anyways. As for LA/ECL and Gestalt, I just changed a high level campaign to Gestalt to make up for the lack of players (only 3) in a high powered campaign, and the cohort is a Nymph. Originally a Nymph/Bard/Geomancer, this character saw a revamp. I found during playtesting that in the case of racial hit die + LA it was best to run those HD and LA along one 'side' of the Gestalt line, ie: Favored Soul1/Nymph1 Favored Soul2/Nymph2 etc, until the Nymphs ECL of 13 is met, then continue class progression on the Nymph 'side' until 20, as usual. The first 'side' would see all 20 levels uninterrupted, with PrCs or whatever, as you see fit. Make sense? Cause it shoor did in play, and was alot less bulky. The alternative, when playing a low level game with high ECL creatures is the same as it always was, if there isnt a level based ECL class like WoTC has put out on Wizards.com, then you cant take the race/template. Simple. Either that, or just make your own, but watch for balance. It does make sense - the only real problem I have with it is that it doesn, errr.... 'feel' right. It's pretty nitpicky of me, but this is something that I find to be really weird. I dislike the Savage Species idea on a couple of principales, primarily the fact that monsters, as presented in the Monster Manual are supposed to be the weakest of thier breed. That, and it doesn't make too mcuh sense to me to have a giant character grow to be five times his origional height over the course of a campaign - it's wonderful, in it's way, for rules balance, but the problem is that the flavor of it is just... weird. I'd much prefer to see characters define their race before they get into class levels, and as early as possible, which is why I faovr something alittle bit more compact, like the class above. My second problem is that there are already flaws with the ECL/LA system, and having a step in step racial class just seems to... hrrmm... exagerate them, I guess. There's some fairly weird issues with racial levels that provide not special ability, so even more so than normal, these levels become nothing (most class levels will suppercede the racial levels/hit dice in just about every manner). Meanwhile, the levels that have no hit-dice attached are suddenly more powerful - you gain all the special abilities, and hit-dice, ect, as if you were of your gestalted class. I'd much rather just re-adjust the templates and races so that you could fill up entire level, rather than dealing with that which gives me a creepy, icky feeling. (I know that that has to be great, logical reasoning if ever I've seen it :D ).
CompleteSatori 02-26-04, 01:36 AM	I actually tend to agree with you, which is why I dont allow Savage Progressions in my campaigns, the only time I see high ECL character/race creations is at the inception of high level campaigns, or when a high level character dies and is replaced by a new one. I dont mind people taking the hit that Racial HD and LA usually hand you, that is, after all, the decision of the player.
Ulden Throatbane 02-26-04, 10:17 AM	On the other hand, I do like the racial progressions for races with low ECLs (like the tiefling). It's a nice compromise, IMO.
Asellion 02-27-04, 12:37 AM	Might have missed it..but can anyone explain the method of how you can buy off EL's like in the bloodlines? I found the book a little confusing
Gestalt_Commoner 02-27-04, 12:40 AM	oooooo dman look at thta teh wiz0 is on MI SIDE!!!!!!!! srry its late so i dnt have tmie 2 reed all ur replez but tehy look good!! will post soon!
The Simple Seeker II 02-27-04, 02:13 AM	Originally posted by Gestalt_Commoner oooooo dman look at thta teh wiz0 is on MI SIDE!!!!!!!! srry its late so i dnt have tmie 2 reed all ur replez but tehy look good!! will post soon! No...he is not...he just wants to see that all questions put forward, are given a fair and equal response without bias. But your colorful lanuage is the stressful factor in discussion. So...without further added displeasure...could you write....'normal' if that is possible within your means. Thank you.