Gestalt Rulings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Rulings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MJ the Prophet
04-21-05, 10:57 AM I'm putting together a gestalt campaign, and discovering several things that I'm probably going to want to limit. Obviously, not everything is covered in the rules in UA. So, I'm going to post things here, basically important rulings that I plan to make. Any other suggestions would be helpful. I want to see my players come up with imaginative, impressive characters, but I don't want it getting out of hand. So, here we go, starting with what I think is one of the most important ones:

Rule 1: Your caster level cannot be higher than your character level. For example, at 7th level, you take a prestige class that gives you spellcasting of "+1 level of existing class." If taking that existing class as the other "side" of your gestalt would put your caster level at 8th, you can't do it. This will prevent characters having 9th level spells at 12th level, for instance.
HailSpork
04-21-05, 12:26 PM Isn't it already like that by default when using gestalt rules?
DM Zoc
04-21-05, 12:30 PM Yes. If you're going Sorcerer/Archmage, for example, both classes get the ability "+1 to Sorcerer spellcasting," and you only take one of them.

The only "ruling" that I know of which they didn't actually cover is that, when playing a funny race, you only gestalt hit dice (including racial hit dice, but not level adjustment). If you fail to do this, it suddenly becomes massively overpowered to have as high of a level adjustment as possible.
Athryn
04-21-05, 12:53 PM Yes. If you're going Sorcerer/Archmage, for example, both classes get the ability "+1 to Sorcerer spellcasting," and you only take one of them.

The only "ruling" that I know of which they didn't actually cover is that, when playing a funny race, you only gestalt hit dice (including racial hit dice, but not level adjustment). If you fail to do this, it suddenly becomes massively overpowered to have as high of a level adjustment as possible.

And yet, if you don't gestalt LA then it becomes massively underpowered to take a race with any LA at all. If you convert a monster into a savage species style monster class progression, then the character takes the LA and the hit dice as class levels, which is effectively the same as gestalting LA.

So far in my gestalt campaign some of the players have chosen to play monster classes, and they have not yet shown themselves to be massively overpowered compared to the other gestalt characters. Then again, they only just hit level 4, so I may regret allowing it in the future.
MJ the Prophet
04-21-05, 01:10 PM Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see my Rule 1 in the UA written rules. It just seems to make sense. If anyone has the quote, I'd appreciate it. Of course, regardless of where it is, I'm enforcing it. :D

As for monster classes, LA, racial hit dice, etc., I've posted a question about it before. It seems to be something that's kinda rough, and different people have different rulings on it. Some say you can gestalt the HD levels on the monster class, but not the LA levels. I've seen a lot of different ways, and I'll handle it if and when it comes up. Of course, I'd like to be prepared, but if I don't have to deal with it, all the better.
ravendm
04-21-05, 10:52 PM First, Gestalting monster classes does make the monster a bit more powerful in that it typically has more hit points and skills then a non-gestalt monster. But as all the other characters typically have higher hit point and skill totals anyway it isnt a huge problem.

Second, one rule that my group uses is that when multiclassing with gestalts you have to keep one of your two classes from your last level. For example: If a Sor1/Wiz1 gestalt levels and wants to multiclass they could become a Sor2/Wiz1/Fgt1 or a Sor1/Wiz2/Rog1, but not a Sor1/Wiz1/Fgt1/Rog1. We also tend to discourage excessive multiclassing.
jaerad
04-21-05, 11:23 PM First, Gestalting monster classes does make the monster a bit more powerful in that it typically has more hit points and skills then a non-gestalt monster. But as all the other characters typically have higher hit point and skill totals anyway it isnt a huge problem.

Second, one rule that my group uses is that when multiclassing with gestalts you have to keep one of your two classes from your last level. For example: If a Sor1/Wiz1 gestalt levels and wants to multiclass they could become a Sor2/Wiz1/Fgt1 or a Sor1/Wiz2/Rog1, but not a Sor1/Wiz1/Fgt1/Rog1. We also tend to discourage excessive multiclassing.

I'm thinking of doing something like this. Maybe incorporating Favored Class into it, keeps some of the flavor from getting lost. Someone recommended requiring an NPC class each level. That was an interesting limit on gestalt...

Personally, I think the biggest thing to nerf is Fighter/Wizzy. A lil' too powerful IMO. It also totally nerfs a lot of PrCs, which I'd like to keep. Which reminds me, we're ruling you can only progress in one PrC at a time, forget if that it part of the RAW.
HailSpork
04-22-05, 01:18 AM Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see my Rule 1 in the UA written rules. It just seems to make sense. If anyone has the quote, I'd appreciate it. Of course, regardless of where it is, I'm enforcing it. :D

Page 73:
"Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspect of each..."
Which is a better aspect: +1 arcane spellcasting level or +1 arcane spellcasting level?

Edit: Also, "Class features that two classes share... accrue at the rate of the faster class".
DM Zoc
04-22-05, 02:33 AM And yet, if you don't gestalt LA then it becomes massively underpowered to take a race with any LA at all. If you convert a monster into a savage species style monster class progression, then the character takes the LA and the hit dice as class levels, which is effectively the same as gestalting LA.

Trust me: compare a level 20 barbarian/sorcerer to a level 20 barbarian with 20 levels of strength-increasing templates. The difference between a getting the better of two hit dice (both of which would add Con mod) and getting a hit die when you normally would not is huge.

The best solution is to allow for LA buyoff, and don't gestalt LA.
Athryn
04-23-05, 10:13 PM Trust me: compare a level 20 barbarian/sorcerer to a level 20 barbarian with 20 levels of strength-increasing templates. The difference between a getting the better of two hit dice (both of which would add Con mod) and getting a hit die when you normally would not is huge.

The best solution is to allow for LA buyoff, and don't gestalt LA.

Maybe my problem is that I'm thinking of it as only a few levels of LA. The only way your hypothetical uber-strong barbarian could exist is in a campaign that started at level 20.

Personally, I think that with an imaginative players the versatility added by sorcerer spells might even the field. The barb/sorc could fly above the pure barbarian and never get hit. I suppose that at L20 the templated barbarian could have access to wings of flying, but that's what targeted dispel is for.

And, of course, there's always Charm Monster :)
DM Zoc
04-23-05, 11:06 PM Maybe my problem is that I'm thinking of it as only a few levels of LA. The only way your hypothetical uber-strong barbarian could exist is in a campaign that started at level 20.

Personally, I think that with an imaginative players the versatility added by sorcerer spells might even the field. The barb/sorc could fly above the pure barbarian and never get hit. I suppose that at L20 the templated barbarian could have access to wings of flying, but that's what targeted dispel is for.

And, of course, there's always Charm Monster :)
Not true, on any of the three levels. There are methods for gaining a level adjustment in play, through rituals and whatnot, which make far more sense than actually starting with them (half-dragon/half-celestial/half-fey is an odd probability of parents, especially for a half-ogre). Secondly, any combination of 20 levels of LA and templates would be hard to come out without wings (the above mentioned example has three sets of them). Templates are also pretty free about granting immunity to being charmed.

You were looking at this at an overall LA of 3 or 4, and you think it's not over-powered. I can't say whether it is, or not, without knowing more. A half-dragon/barbarian 3 will be just as much more powerful than a barbarian/sorcerer 3 as in the previous example, just in microcosm. Granted that a half-dragon sorcerer 3/barbarian 6 will be worse than a sorcerer/barbarian 6.

Gestalting against the Level Adjustment rewards characters who have a larger Level Adjustment. While this might be more balanced on the low end, it is less balanced in the long term. A major driver of 3.X edition was that you should never gain a benefit from playing a funny race; you should always be just as powerful (or failing that, slightly weaker) than a core race.
Athryn
04-23-05, 11:39 PM I'm sure you're right, I'm just trying to convince myself that I won't have a major problem in the gestalt campaign I'm currently running because of this.

I'll have to talk to my players about it I guess. I just hope they don't tear me limb from limb.
DM Zoc
04-24-05, 12:11 AM My advice as a DM, as long as can assure that everyone is happy with their characters as-is, and the Level Adjustments involved aren't too extreme, is that you shouldn't point out that it's unbalanced. If they learn that it can be broken easily, then they'll start trying.
The Stray
04-24-05, 03:50 PM Personally, I think the biggest thing to nerf is Fighter/Wizzy. A lil' too powerful IMO. It also totally nerfs a lot of PrCs, which I'd like to keep. Which reminds me, we're ruling you can only progress in one PrC at a time, forget if that it part of the RAW.

My Sorcerer 10//Barbarian 7/Dragon Desciple 3 would like to point out that he can still only perfom one standard action in a round, so he can either swing his axe at the baddies or shoot a scortching ray at them, not both. And while raging, he can't cast spells at all. So while his Gish build may be powerful, it isn't any more powerful than the Favored Soul/Cleric who gets massive amounts of divine spells to cast every day, or the Bard/Rogue who can charm your pants off then stick you painfully in the privates while they're down.

Personally, though, I WOULD like some help dealing with Level Adjustments, myself. It's always a pain to figure out just what sort of LA works with Gestalt characters. (My solution was to reduce LA by 2 when characters create their characters...I have a 10th level game running where the half-fiend is level 8 instead of level 6...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MJ the Prophet 04-21-05, 10:57 AM	I'm putting together a gestalt campaign, and discovering several things that I'm probably going to want to limit. Obviously, not everything is covered in the rules in UA. So, I'm going to post things here, basically important rulings that I plan to make. Any other suggestions would be helpful. I want to see my players come up with imaginative, impressive characters, but I don't want it getting out of hand. So, here we go, starting with what I think is one of the most important ones: Rule 1: Your caster level cannot be higher than your character level. For example, at 7th level, you take a prestige class that gives you spellcasting of "+1 level of existing class." If taking that existing class as the other "side" of your gestalt would put your caster level at 8th, you can't do it. This will prevent characters having 9th level spells at 12th level, for instance.
HailSpork 04-21-05, 12:26 PM	Isn't it already like that by default when using gestalt rules?
DM Zoc 04-21-05, 12:30 PM	Yes. If you're going Sorcerer/Archmage, for example, both classes get the ability "+1 to Sorcerer spellcasting," and you only take one of them. The only "ruling" that I know of which they didn't actually cover is that, when playing a funny race, you only gestalt hit dice (including racial hit dice, but not level adjustment). If you fail to do this, it suddenly becomes massively overpowered to have as high of a level adjustment as possible.
Athryn 04-21-05, 12:53 PM	Yes. If you're going Sorcerer/Archmage, for example, both classes get the ability "+1 to Sorcerer spellcasting," and you only take one of them. The only "ruling" that I know of which they didn't actually cover is that, when playing a funny race, you only gestalt hit dice (including racial hit dice, but not level adjustment). If you fail to do this, it suddenly becomes massively overpowered to have as high of a level adjustment as possible. And yet, if you don't gestalt LA then it becomes massively underpowered to take a race with any LA at all. If you convert a monster into a savage species style monster class progression, then the character takes the LA and the hit dice as class levels, which is effectively the same as gestalting LA. So far in my gestalt campaign some of the players have chosen to play monster classes, and they have not yet shown themselves to be massively overpowered compared to the other gestalt characters. Then again, they only just hit level 4, so I may regret allowing it in the future.
MJ the Prophet 04-21-05, 01:10 PM	Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see my Rule 1 in the UA written rules. It just seems to make sense. If anyone has the quote, I'd appreciate it. Of course, regardless of where it is, I'm enforcing it. :D As for monster classes, LA, racial hit dice, etc., I've posted a question about it before. It seems to be something that's kinda rough, and different people have different rulings on it. Some say you can gestalt the HD levels on the monster class, but not the LA levels. I've seen a lot of different ways, and I'll handle it if and when it comes up. Of course, I'd like to be prepared, but if I don't have to deal with it, all the better.
ravendm 04-21-05, 10:52 PM	First, Gestalting monster classes does make the monster a bit more powerful in that it typically has more hit points and skills then a non-gestalt monster. But as all the other characters typically have higher hit point and skill totals anyway it isnt a huge problem. Second, one rule that my group uses is that when multiclassing with gestalts you have to keep one of your two classes from your last level. For example: If a Sor1/Wiz1 gestalt levels and wants to multiclass they could become a Sor2/Wiz1/Fgt1 or a Sor1/Wiz2/Rog1, but not a Sor1/Wiz1/Fgt1/Rog1. We also tend to discourage excessive multiclassing.
jaerad 04-21-05, 11:23 PM	First, Gestalting monster classes does make the monster a bit more powerful in that it typically has more hit points and skills then a non-gestalt monster. But as all the other characters typically have higher hit point and skill totals anyway it isnt a huge problem. Second, one rule that my group uses is that when multiclassing with gestalts you have to keep one of your two classes from your last level. For example: If a Sor1/Wiz1 gestalt levels and wants to multiclass they could become a Sor2/Wiz1/Fgt1 or a Sor1/Wiz2/Rog1, but not a Sor1/Wiz1/Fgt1/Rog1. We also tend to discourage excessive multiclassing. I'm thinking of doing something like this. Maybe incorporating Favored Class into it, keeps some of the flavor from getting lost. Someone recommended requiring an NPC class each level. That was an interesting limit on gestalt... Personally, I think the biggest thing to nerf is Fighter/Wizzy. A lil' too powerful IMO. It also totally nerfs a lot of PrCs, which I'd like to keep. Which reminds me, we're ruling you can only progress in one PrC at a time, forget if that it part of the RAW.
HailSpork 04-22-05, 01:18 AM	Maybe I'm just missing it, but I don't see my Rule 1 in the UA written rules. It just seems to make sense. If anyone has the quote, I'd appreciate it. Of course, regardless of where it is, I'm enforcing it. :D Page 73: "Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspect of each..." Which is a better aspect: +1 arcane spellcasting level or +1 arcane spellcasting level? Edit: Also, "Class features that two classes share... accrue at the rate of the faster class".
DM Zoc 04-22-05, 02:33 AM	And yet, if you don't gestalt LA then it becomes massively underpowered to take a race with any LA at all. If you convert a monster into a savage species style monster class progression, then the character takes the LA and the hit dice as class levels, which is effectively the same as gestalting LA. Trust me: compare a level 20 barbarian/sorcerer to a level 20 barbarian with 20 levels of strength-increasing templates. The difference between a getting the better of two hit dice (both of which would add Con mod) and getting a hit die when you normally would not is huge. The best solution is to allow for LA buyoff, and don't gestalt LA.
Athryn 04-23-05, 10:13 PM	Trust me: compare a level 20 barbarian/sorcerer to a level 20 barbarian with 20 levels of strength-increasing templates. The difference between a getting the better of two hit dice (both of which would add Con mod) and getting a hit die when you normally would not is huge. The best solution is to allow for LA buyoff, and don't gestalt LA. Maybe my problem is that I'm thinking of it as only a few levels of LA. The only way your hypothetical uber-strong barbarian could exist is in a campaign that started at level 20. Personally, I think that with an imaginative players the versatility added by sorcerer spells might even the field. The barb/sorc could fly above the pure barbarian and never get hit. I suppose that at L20 the templated barbarian could have access to wings of flying, but that's what targeted dispel is for. And, of course, there's always Charm Monster :)
DM Zoc 04-23-05, 11:06 PM	Maybe my problem is that I'm thinking of it as only a few levels of LA. The only way your hypothetical uber-strong barbarian could exist is in a campaign that started at level 20. Personally, I think that with an imaginative players the versatility added by sorcerer spells might even the field. The barb/sorc could fly above the pure barbarian and never get hit. I suppose that at L20 the templated barbarian could have access to wings of flying, but that's what targeted dispel is for. And, of course, there's always Charm Monster :) Not true, on any of the three levels. There are methods for gaining a level adjustment in play, through rituals and whatnot, which make far more sense than actually starting with them (half-dragon/half-celestial/half-fey is an odd probability of parents, especially for a half-ogre). Secondly, any combination of 20 levels of LA and templates would be hard to come out without wings (the above mentioned example has three sets of them). Templates are also pretty free about granting immunity to being charmed. You were looking at this at an overall LA of 3 or 4, and you think it's not over-powered. I can't say whether it is, or not, without knowing more. A half-dragon/barbarian 3 will be just as much more powerful than a barbarian/sorcerer 3 as in the previous example, just in microcosm. Granted that a half-dragon sorcerer 3/barbarian 6 will be worse than a sorcerer/barbarian 6. Gestalting against the Level Adjustment rewards characters who have a larger Level Adjustment. While this might be more balanced on the low end, it is less balanced in the long term. A major driver of 3.X edition was that you should never gain a benefit from playing a funny race; you should always be just as powerful (or failing that, slightly weaker) than a core race.
Athryn 04-23-05, 11:39 PM	I'm sure you're right, I'm just trying to convince myself that I won't have a major problem in the gestalt campaign I'm currently running because of this. I'll have to talk to my players about it I guess. I just hope they don't tear me limb from limb.
DM Zoc 04-24-05, 12:11 AM	My advice as a DM, as long as can assure that everyone is happy with their characters as-is, and the Level Adjustments involved aren't too extreme, is that you shouldn't point out that it's unbalanced. If they learn that it can be broken easily, then they'll start trying.
The Stray 04-24-05, 03:50 PM	Personally, I think the biggest thing to nerf is Fighter/Wizzy. A lil' too powerful IMO. It also totally nerfs a lot of PrCs, which I'd like to keep. Which reminds me, we're ruling you can only progress in one PrC at a time, forget if that it part of the RAW. My Sorcerer 10//Barbarian 7/Dragon Desciple 3 would like to point out that he can still only perfom one standard action in a round, so he can either swing his axe at the baddies or shoot a scortching ray at them, not both. And while raging, he can't cast spells at all. So while his Gish build may be powerful, it isn't any more powerful than the Favored Soul/Cleric who gets massive amounts of divine spells to cast every day, or the Bard/Rogue who can charm your pants off then stick you painfully in the privates while they're down. Personally, though, I WOULD like some help dealing with Level Adjustments, myself. It's always a pain to figure out just what sort of LA works with Gestalt characters. (My solution was to reduce LA by 2 when characters create their characters...I have a 10th level game running where the half-fiend is level 8 instead of level 6...)