Gestalt's IMO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt's IMO [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Themall
07-20-04, 01:07 AM Friend : "Hey man, I heard you picked up Unearthed Arcana, any good?
Me : Ya, some interesting concepts, some I'm pretty sure I'll use others I'm not so sure about.
Friend: What aren't you sure about.
Me: Gestalt Characters.
Friend: What's a Gestalt Character?
Me: A character thats esentually made up of 2 Player classes as one , picking the best hit die, base attack, and saves. then piling all the class specials together into one.
Friend, looking thoughtful, then brandishing an evil grin: Oh, Really. When can I play one?
Me: Never.

Okay I lied, but he doesn't know about it yet, after much thought I've decided to let my players play Gestalt. However they must play them my way.
The biggest problem I had is power, me personnally I would play a Wizard\Monk because when Gruish the orc thinks its a good idea to flatten the vile spellcaster I would place him quickly and firmly on his fat arse, smoke him in the bean until he was unconscous then use my magical might to make him think he was a little schoolgirl who liked to play with dollies and sing ballids of the brave knight coming to rescue her from the evil orc clan she was captured by.
Huh? Oh sorry the mind does wander when conteplating the endless possibilities of Gestalt characters.
Anyway to get back on track the power issue was bugging me bad, why allow my PC's to plow through my horde's of Undead, Legions of Orcs, and distrupt my evil sorcerers plot of world domination. I mean thats alot of more writing for my encounters.
But then again, maybe not. One constant I've always sought to employ but was not entirely sure how to back background. the very origin of your character. Was he the son of a blacksmith, daughter of a knight. cousin of a noble? You get my drift, Yes? Maybe? Yes?...No Back...To... Work, ( umm sorry a little Neverwinter creeping in)
The constant background to all setting is the NPC's. Your barmaid, your innkeep, your high and mighty noble, who you could easily pummel with the hilt of your sword blindfolded, all the while downing a pint of your favorite ale.
Utilizing Gestalts and the basic NPC classes I decided to allow the character to pick a NPC class from page 107 of the DMG and then add his regular class. the NPC class represented his background while his PC class represented his eliteness, if you will, to society what put him above the hum drum life of plowing farmer Nedlies field for few extra spending copper in the town tavern, pick up a hand axe and trudge his arse into the Weary Wood and stomp a hole through the goblins who have been raiding the town and plundering the countryside for years.
Allowing this type of gestalt creates a better backgroung for my players it also lets them qualify for prestige classes slightly earlier, was opposed to really early with 2 true player classes, I mean hey thats alot of extra special abilities I'd have to take into account when i build the adventure, and frankly I'm lazy, I like to drop critters straight from the book, chuck in a few "what in the 9 hells was that!?!" and POOF! Instaventure!
As it stand there are 5 base NPC classes from the DmG and a new one from Eberron the Magewright but I think Iv'e read about one called the Thug but cant find it in any books I have.
Anyway your thoughts would be appreciated as well as the book and page # of that Thug NPC class.
TheDarkLord
07-20-04, 01:50 AM I think it isn't a bad idea, but two issues to address.

What about multi-classing out of of the NPC classes, like a wizard4/expert4, then multiclassing from expert into...say rogue or something.
The Aristocrat NPC class. Arguably one of the most powerful classes around for the simple fact of Political power. Any aristocrat can call for an army to fight his battles. What then? Eventually, with 2000 warriors, someone's gonna get lucky and kill any character you have.

But it's still a sound idea. I am currently in a Gestalt Campaign (Rogue/Psion, nasty critty), and we aren't really having any "power" problems because the DM knows what he's doing.
Themall
07-20-04, 12:17 PM Originally posted by TheDarkLord

[list=1]
What about multi-classing out of of the NPC classes, like a wizard4/expert4, then multiclassing from expert into...say rogue or something.
The Aristocrat NPC class. Arguably one of the most powerful classes around for the simple fact of Political power. Any aristocrat can call for an army to fight his battles. What then? Eventually, with 2000 warriors, someone's gonna get lucky and kill any character you have.
[/list=1]

Personnally I would prefer my characters stay the same NPC class the whole time and only multiclassing in their Player class. IE When Jonny the Fighter/Expert gets to 5th he decides to take Rogue so at 6th lvel he's a 5thlvl fighter 1st lvl rogue and 6th lvl Expert
ultimately it is the skill selection or saves/BAB that my players want to augment there characters.
I know my players, a Wiz6/Rogue6 would end up capped at Wiz10 Rogue20 Arcane Trickster10 15/10/5 BAB +6 +14 +14 saves +15d6 SA or worse.
can that be handled? sure, but as I said before I dont want to tailor every adventure just to make my PC's challenged I love dragon mag and like to use em as they where originally set up.
As for the Aristocrat Political power comes with so many strings I cant really fathom them all. Ya, your Player may summon up 2000 warriors but what of it? What of the ramifications, Who all would react? How do the other nobles feel about the Noble with his/her Sellsword compatriots? Say Nimrick, how do you feel about (insert title here) Kalathar and his ruffians calling up the militia and crusading across the contryside?
All in all I could run true type Gestalts but Im more for the flavor of treating it like a secondary/background class that can augment your Wizard Warrior so when he takes Spell sword he's already got alot ,but not as much as a Fighter, going for him.
:D :D
castlemike
07-20-04, 07:27 PM Pretty interesting concepts. I like the concept of pc lesser gestalts something akin to the bloodlines. Based on profession and the PHB Table 6-4 Randon starting ages. This can provide some interesting character history, flavor and skills (particularly for skill based campaigns) in addition to tiding pcs over initial levels.

The barbarians, rouges, sorcerers and NPC classes rate a 1 difficulty, bards, fighters, paladins and rangers rate a 2 clerics, druids, monks and wizards rate a 3. A PC can lesser gestalt up to a difficulty value of 4 say Wizard-Rogue or Bard-Ranger or Druid-Sorcerer which are all 4s.

Based on Int or Wis or primary ability scores adjustment values or the primary ability modifiers for the two classes. The lesser gestalt is capped at four levels. Using 25 - 32 point buy should normally only be two or three levels in another class and possibly a fourth.
Veton
07-20-04, 09:11 PM Originally posted by Themall
Anyway to get back on track the power issue was bugging me bad, why allow my PC's to plow through my horde's of Undead, Legions of Orcs, and distrupt my evil sorcerers plot of world domination. I mean thats alot of more writing for my encounters.

If you are running Gestalt characters properly, then they can handle CRs 1 higher then normal, or 2 if they rely on a failed saving throw to be dangerous (Medusa, Wyvern, etc.)

Allowing this type of gestalt creates a better backgroung for my players it also lets them qualify for prestige classes slightly earlier, was opposed to really early with 2 true player classes...

You could just increase the requirments so that they can get it around their 5th character level.
Themall
07-21-04, 05:58 PM Yes this could all be done. But I dont wish my players to play true gestalts, I want them to have more options with their characters but as it stands all my players started playing since 1st ed they can handle CR's 2-4 levels higher normally. And thats not power gaming they role play up a storm , play an intelligent character intelligently, dumb characters dumb etc. they' re good. Sometime's I get out smarted sometimes I outsmart them. Its really fun.
Themall
07-21-04, 06:00 PM Originally posted by Themall
I mean hey thats alot of extra special abilities I'd have to take into account when i build the adventure, and frankly I'm lazy, I like to drop critters straight from the book, chuck in a few "what in the 9 hells was that!?!" and POOF! Instaventure!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Themall 07-20-04, 01:07 AM	Friend : "Hey man, I heard you picked up Unearthed Arcana, any good? Me : Ya, some interesting concepts, some I'm pretty sure I'll use others I'm not so sure about. Friend: What aren't you sure about. Me: Gestalt Characters. Friend: What's a Gestalt Character? Me: A character thats esentually made up of 2 Player classes as one , picking the best hit die, base attack, and saves. then piling all the class specials together into one. Friend, looking thoughtful, then brandishing an evil grin: Oh, Really. When can I play one? Me: Never. Okay I lied, but he doesn't know about it yet, after much thought I've decided to let my players play Gestalt. However they must play them my way. The biggest problem I had is power, me personnally I would play a Wizard\Monk because when Gruish the orc thinks its a good idea to flatten the vile spellcaster I would place him quickly and firmly on his fat arse, smoke him in the bean until he was unconscous then use my magical might to make him think he was a little schoolgirl who liked to play with dollies and sing ballids of the brave knight coming to rescue her from the evil orc clan she was captured by. Huh? Oh sorry the mind does wander when conteplating the endless possibilities of Gestalt characters. Anyway to get back on track the power issue was bugging me bad, why allow my PC's to plow through my horde's of Undead, Legions of Orcs, and distrupt my evil sorcerers plot of world domination. I mean thats alot of more writing for my encounters. But then again, maybe not. One constant I've always sought to employ but was not entirely sure how to back background. the very origin of your character. Was he the son of a blacksmith, daughter of a knight. cousin of a noble? You get my drift, Yes? Maybe? Yes?...No Back...To... Work, ( umm sorry a little Neverwinter creeping in) The constant background to all setting is the NPC's. Your barmaid, your innkeep, your high and mighty noble, who you could easily pummel with the hilt of your sword blindfolded, all the while downing a pint of your favorite ale. Utilizing Gestalts and the basic NPC classes I decided to allow the character to pick a NPC class from page 107 of the DMG and then add his regular class. the NPC class represented his background while his PC class represented his eliteness, if you will, to society what put him above the hum drum life of plowing farmer Nedlies field for few extra spending copper in the town tavern, pick up a hand axe and trudge his arse into the Weary Wood and stomp a hole through the goblins who have been raiding the town and plundering the countryside for years. Allowing this type of gestalt creates a better backgroung for my players it also lets them qualify for prestige classes slightly earlier, was opposed to really early with 2 true player classes, I mean hey thats alot of extra special abilities I'd have to take into account when i build the adventure, and frankly I'm lazy, I like to drop critters straight from the book, chuck in a few "what in the 9 hells was that!?!" and POOF! Instaventure! As it stand there are 5 base NPC classes from the DmG and a new one from Eberron the Magewright but I think Iv'e read about one called the Thug but cant find it in any books I have. Anyway your thoughts would be appreciated as well as the book and page # of that Thug NPC class.
TheDarkLord 07-20-04, 01:50 AM	I think it isn't a bad idea, but two issues to address. What about multi-classing out of of the NPC classes, like a wizard4/expert4, then multiclassing from expert into...say rogue or something. The Aristocrat NPC class. Arguably one of the most powerful classes around for the simple fact of Political power. Any aristocrat can call for an army to fight his battles. What then? Eventually, with 2000 warriors, someone's gonna get lucky and kill any character you have. But it's still a sound idea. I am currently in a Gestalt Campaign (Rogue/Psion, nasty critty), and we aren't really having any "power" problems because the DM knows what he's doing.
Themall 07-20-04, 12:17 PM	Originally posted by TheDarkLord [list=1] What about multi-classing out of of the NPC classes, like a wizard4/expert4, then multiclassing from expert into...say rogue or something. The Aristocrat NPC class. Arguably one of the most powerful classes around for the simple fact of Political power. Any aristocrat can call for an army to fight his battles. What then? Eventually, with 2000 warriors, someone's gonna get lucky and kill any character you have. [/list=1] Personnally I would prefer my characters stay the same NPC class the whole time and only multiclassing in their Player class. IE When Jonny the Fighter/Expert gets to 5th he decides to take Rogue so at 6th lvel he's a 5thlvl fighter 1st lvl rogue and 6th lvl Expert ultimately it is the skill selection or saves/BAB that my players want to augment there characters. I know my players, a Wiz6/Rogue6 would end up capped at Wiz10 Rogue20 Arcane Trickster10 15/10/5 BAB +6 +14 +14 saves +15d6 SA or worse. can that be handled? sure, but as I said before I dont want to tailor every adventure just to make my PC's challenged I love dragon mag and like to use em as they where originally set up. As for the Aristocrat Political power comes with so many strings I cant really fathom them all. Ya, your Player may summon up 2000 warriors but what of it? What of the ramifications, Who all would react? How do the other nobles feel about the Noble with his/her Sellsword compatriots? Say Nimrick, how do you feel about (insert title here) Kalathar and his ruffians calling up the militia and crusading across the contryside? All in all I could run true type Gestalts but Im more for the flavor of treating it like a secondary/background class that can augment your Wizard Warrior so when he takes Spell sword he's already got alot ,but not as much as a Fighter, going for him. :D :D
castlemike 07-20-04, 07:27 PM	Pretty interesting concepts. I like the concept of pc lesser gestalts something akin to the bloodlines. Based on profession and the PHB Table 6-4 Randon starting ages. This can provide some interesting character history, flavor and skills (particularly for skill based campaigns) in addition to tiding pcs over initial levels. The barbarians, rouges, sorcerers and NPC classes rate a 1 difficulty, bards, fighters, paladins and rangers rate a 2 clerics, druids, monks and wizards rate a 3. A PC can lesser gestalt up to a difficulty value of 4 say Wizard-Rogue or Bard-Ranger or Druid-Sorcerer which are all 4s. Based on Int or Wis or primary ability scores adjustment values or the primary ability modifiers for the two classes. The lesser gestalt is capped at four levels. Using 25 - 32 point buy should normally only be two or three levels in another class and possibly a fourth.
Veton 07-20-04, 09:11 PM	Originally posted by Themall Anyway to get back on track the power issue was bugging me bad, why allow my PC's to plow through my horde's of Undead, Legions of Orcs, and distrupt my evil sorcerers plot of world domination. I mean thats alot of more writing for my encounters. If you are running Gestalt characters properly, then they can handle CRs 1 higher then normal, or 2 if they rely on a failed saving throw to be dangerous (Medusa, Wyvern, etc.) Allowing this type of gestalt creates a better backgroung for my players it also lets them qualify for prestige classes slightly earlier, was opposed to really early with 2 true player classes... You could just increase the requirments so that they can get it around their 5th character level.
Themall 07-21-04, 05:58 PM	Yes this could all be done. But I dont wish my players to play true gestalts, I want them to have more options with their characters but as it stands all my players started playing since 1st ed they can handle CR's 2-4 levels higher normally. And thats not power gaming they role play up a storm , play an intelligent character intelligently, dumb characters dumb etc. they' re good. Sometime's I get out smarted sometimes I outsmart them. Its really fun.
Themall 07-21-04, 06:00 PM	Originally posted by Themall I mean hey thats alot of extra special abilities I'd have to take into account when i build the adventure, and frankly I'm lazy, I like to drop critters straight from the book, chuck in a few "what in the 9 hells was that!?!" and POOF! Instaventure!