Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dracomortis 01-07-07, 04:54 PM	What kind of insane combinations have you guys come up with for gestalt? Here's a few I've found: 1) Psion / Wilder: Power points, unlike spell per day, are cumulative and shared between all classes. You've got twice as many power points per day as a nongestalt build to spend on powers from both class lists. You can focus on discipline-specific powers with your psion list and use wilder to pick up those situational powers like astral caravan. 2) Fighter / Psychic Warrior: Feats, feats, feats. In addition to the 7 standard feats you'll receive over your 20 levels, you'll get 11 fighter bonus feats and 8 psychic warrior bonus feats. Add to that a bonus feat for being human, plus 2 for flaws, and you're looking at 29 feats over 20 levels, six of them at first level! 3) Ninja / Rogue: Against any foe who's flat-footed, you get both your sneak attack damage and your sudden strike damage. Plus, you can use your ghost step ability to automatically get both of those against a foe multiple times per day, setting up massive (if not fatal) strikes. 4) Monk / Scout: Anyone who can catch you gets a cookie. Your strategy consists of running past the foe, unleashing a flurry of blows on the way and getting bonus damage because you moved more than 10 feet, as well as a nice boost to AC. Spring Attack is essential to this build. 5) Cleric / Wizard / Mysthic Theurge: You can actually wind up with more spells per day and spells known than a cleric or wizard of your level should (although you can't do it for both classes, sadly). One class is going to lag behind slightly, but nothing beats having spells two or more levels early.
strenoth 01-07-07, 06:31 PM	that last one is a no-go, MT is specifically on the 'not allowed' PrC list.
ZombieDragon 01-07-07, 07:14 PM	1) Psionics are a touchy board subject as the people that want to keep it extrapowered/broken have wording on their side. Our group makes all the Psionic classes act independently of each other in gestalt games. The same way doubling up on arcane or divine classes are kept separate. Powers, abilities and PP are kept separate as if each were a whole different thing. 2+3) It’s a wording issue again and a touchy one. The doubling of similar features are to use the better progression. 4) It’s not as powerful as other things like a Monk/Druid. Spring attack is quite feat intensive also. 5) As stated prior it’s in the gestalt rules as a no go. Any class or Prc that mimics gestating isn’t to be used in a gestalt build. Gestalt is meant to be overpowered. It’s meant to make a small party on par with a larger party. That was it’s intention, to fill the gaps in a small group and make it more survivable. It’s for the 1-3 Pc groups of the world. Now in a group with 6 Pcs gestating is like playing the X-men of the world. My current ruling on gestalts is one side of the tree has to be core base class going to 20. The other side is a big prc for the base class. This way the Pcs can say “I am a [insert class here]. I’m just a really good one.”. We always run gestalt as we never have 5 people in a group, it‘s usually 3.
claypigeons 01-07-07, 07:33 PM	1) Psion / Wilder: Power points, unlike spell per day, are cumulative and shared between all classes. You've got twice as many power points per day as a nongestalt build to spend on powers from both class lists. You can focus on discipline-specific powers with your psion list and use wilder to pick up those situational powers like astral caravan. So you have a bunch of power points. And... half your gestalt is worthless. Extra power points are fun. But Psion//Wizard makes Psion//Wilder look like a turd. 2) Fighter / Psychic Warrior: Feats, feats, feats. In addition to the 7 standard feats you'll receive over your 20 levels, you'll get 11 fighter bonus feats and 8 psychic warrior bonus feats. Add to that a bonus feat for being human, plus 2 for flaws, and you're looking at 29 feats over 20 levels, six of them at first level! Doesnt work. You get the abilities at the fastest rate. You would get only the fighter bonus feats, none of the psy-war ones. Though a fighter with psionics would be snazzy, I think. 3) Ninja / Rogue: Against any foe who's flat-footed, you get both your sneak attack damage and your sudden strike damage. Plus, you can use your ghost step ability to automatically get both of those against a foe multiple times per day, setting up massive (if not fatal) strikes. And you still have crappy hit points. Crappy fort and will saves. And, for a gestalt game, a lack luster melee BAB. 4) Monk / Scout: Anyone who can catch you gets a cookie. Your strategy consists of running past the foe, unleashing a flurry of blows on the way and getting bonus damage because you moved more than 10 feet, as well as a nice boost to AC. Spring Attack is essential to this build. "meh." 5) Cleric / Wizard / Mysthic Theurge: You can actually wind up with more spells per day and spells known than a cleric or wizard of your level should (although you can't do it for both classes, sadly). One class is going to lag behind slightly, but nothing beats having spells two or more levels early. Mystic Theurge is a no-go in gestalt.
Dracomortis 01-07-07, 07:37 PM	1) Actually, it is explicitly stated in the XPH that power points from all sources stack. Which, like I said, isn't a problem using standard rules, but they didn't consider gestalt when they wrote them. 2) I don't see how this one is a wording issue. You get class features of both classes in gestalt. The bonus feats are separate class features, so you get them both. 3) Yeah, I'd rule that they're more or less the same as well. But, by RAW, you could rules lawyer it. 4) I was just focusing on the character's base speed on this one. If we wanted to be really overpowered, we could gestalt a C.o.D.zilla :eek: 5) Missed that one. Oh well. Still a scary thought nonetheless.
Novabomb 01-07-07, 07:44 PM	4 is no good. Firstly the speed bonuses don't stack as they are both enhancement bonuses. You cannot flurry and spring attack (or skirmish) away because flurry is done as part of a full attack action (full round action). And your not hitting much with your inferior BAB (Both classes have mediocre BAB). Feats are a poor substitue for good class features. If you are using gestalt it makes feats even worse by comparison, thus 2 is a poor choice.
caeruleus 01-07-07, 07:55 PM	1) Actually, it is explicitly stated in the XPH that power points from all sources stack. Which, like I said, isn't a problem using standard rules, but they didn't consider gestalt when they wrote them. That's for multiclassing, not gestalting. You also add you BAB from different sources when you multiclass (it is explicitly stated in the PHB), but you don't add them in a gestalt. Same reasoning applies with PP.
Krusk 01-07-07, 07:57 PM	How about the wizard swashbuckler? You can do anything. Not broken persay, but quite cool combo. Best gish i can think of.
Dracomortis 01-07-07, 07:58 PM	Guess you're right about that caeruleus, and yeah wizard/swashbuckler would be pretty tight. Almost like what a hexblade should've been.
LordHell 01-07-07, 09:28 PM	Im playing a Gestalt Druid/Monk. Wouldnt say its broken, but its pretty nice. Good synergy with Wis, wildshape + leap attack + lion's pounce + speed + flurry = nasty.
Silverthumb128 01-07-07, 10:32 PM	How about the wizard swashbuckler? You can do anything. Not broken persay, but quite cool combo. Best gish i can think of. I like that one, myself. :D One combo I like very much is the Sorceror/Paladin(any of the Paladin versions, really) as a similar version to the Swash/Wiz(I call that the Swizbuckler), based on Charisma. I posted this from another gestalt thread, the Soulknife/Fighter(as I also said in that thread, I chose Fighter, and not Warblade, for the sake of feats, plus, I don't like Warblade): -All good saves, very nice class skills, and all good saves. -Ability dependancy? Equipment dependancy? Both essentially thrown out the window. -Unbreakable(permanently, I mean), and can be reshaped after a dispel -Weapon Focus(Mindblade) straight through to Weapon Supremacy. That's the big one: You'll be capable of using its various shapes and sizes whenever you'd feel necessary, and always gain those bonuses. It also still works with Throw Mind Blade, Bladewind, etc, giving you Ranged and Melee capabilities without hassle of backup weapons, thievery, rust, whatever. -Psychic Strike/Knife to the Soul: On top of the damage bonuses you'll accrue through your many, many feats, you can get bonus damage dice -or- mental ability damage. Mental ability damage has the capability of quickly crippling most melee combatants(they almost always have one as a dump stat), and Mage Slaying. Essentially, a Soulknife/Fighter can easily snake its way through the Weapon Focus and TWF(standard size=Shortsword, easy to TWF) trees and be an uncanny slayer of opponents, between many bonuses to-hit, multiple attacks, extra damage, and ability damage. And with all good saves, armor proficiencies, and d10 HD, you're going to be hard to kill.
TheDarkLord 01-07-07, 11:02 PM	that last one is a no-go, MT is specifically on the 'not allowed' PrC list. I don't have the book with me, but... Since when is this a "Not Allowed" PrC? From what I remember that it advised not to use it, not specifically ban it. Otherwise, the rules for Gestalt allow it, as they allow everything else (as a note, I love gestalt, the most fun me and my players have had).
Archangel62 01-07-07, 11:49 PM	If we actually want to find possibly broken... Crusader/Psychic Warrior (Pretty badass tank) Warblade/Rogue (Focus on Tiger claw) Binder/Hexblade (Not great, but can do some neat tricks) Warlock/Rogue (Effective Troubleshooter) Crusader/Warblade (eep)
Bowmore 01-07-07, 11:49 PM	The soulknife/fighter combo made me swoon.
strenoth 01-08-07, 01:27 AM	A potentially 'broken' gish gestalt is Duskblade/wizard Arcane chanelling + wizard's access to touch spells = pain. it's already been clarified by WotC that a duskblade can even channel divine spells. for a 1 level hit in casting progression, and the cost of a feat, you can get a level of monk who uses INT for his AC modifier. have the wizard side go Abjurant champion for 5 levels, and you have half way decent AC (you can't use most armor because of ASF still applying to your wizard spells) of cours,e Gish inpliespart arcane. If you just want a potent Melee-caster, your best best is a CoDzilla/duskblade gestalt. +1 bab, some nifty enhancemnts, and at 13th level beign able to spam out Harm on some poor critter via Arcane Channling (Full Attack)
Silverthumb128 01-08-07, 02:06 AM	The soulknife/fighter combo made me swoon. I'm glad you like it. Its sort of ironic how two classes known as being very weak, when put together, make one hell of a good combo. Also, this thread, linked below, makes me believe that Warlock+Binder, with Hellfire Warlock added on, is a truly wicked combo: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=753790
Krusk 01-08-07, 02:43 AM	monk adds wis to AC. so I would drop it from the duskblade wizard combo. I would love a druid/anything gestalt. Im a dog right now, bam im giving off bardic music. Bard Im a horse right now, Oh look my AC and move speed are ridicilus. Monk did that polar bear just smite me? palidin that monkey just cast grease. i swear it. wiz/sorcerer any would make for cool.
Silverthumb128 01-08-07, 03:01 AM	monk adds wis to AC. so I would drop it from the duskblade wizard combo. All you'll need is Kung Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk(I think that's what it does) to make the Monk dip worthwhile.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-08-07, 04:50 AM	So you have a bunch of power points. And... half your gestalt is worthless.Better BAB, better Hit Die, more skill points, couple extra powers, wild surge... Yep. Totally worthless. The soulknife/fighter combo made me swoon.I played one of these once. It was about as powerful as a warblade/commoner.
Sleepwalker13666 01-08-07, 05:08 AM	I decided to run a gestalt game for mindless fun my group is as follows 1/2 Giant, Barbarian/Warlock Whisper Gnome, Rouge/Swordsage Aasimar, Dragon Shaman/Dragonfire Adept Air Mephling, Totemist/Binder
Morwen 01-08-07, 05:26 AM	Any full BAB class + War Hulk can be pretty broken :)
claypigeons 01-08-07, 09:47 AM	Better BAB, better Hit Die, more skill points, couple extra powers, wild surge... Yep. Totally worthless. Tossing in Psion doesnt make the wilder any less useless. Hoorah for a psion with a higher BAB and HD. Awesome... really. I'd rather have the other half be useful. Perhaps Wizard... or warblade. Something that doesnt require a large investment to make main class feature more than useless.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-08-07, 10:12 AM	You do realize that you can use wild surge on all of your powers, right? Not just the ones you get from wilder. All of them.
claypigeons 01-08-07, 11:26 AM	You do realize that you can use wild surge on all of your powers, right? Not just the ones you get from wilder. All of them. Yes. That is obvious, though thanks for pointing it out. :rolleyes: Forgive me for not wanting to get enervated. A mechanic that gets progressively suckier as you get higher sucks. And like I said... why not pick something useful? Constantly useful perhaps. Warblade gives you d12 HD, 'full' BAB, manuevers and makes your (typically) high intelligence that much more useful, considering the int-based features and higher skill points. Or go beguiler. Tons of skill points. Nice spells. I fail to see how adding a class to gestalt that most people wouldnt play to begin with somehow makes a combo so great.
strenoth 01-08-07, 11:33 AM	monk adds wis to AC. so I would drop it from the duskblade wizard combo. I would love a druid/anything gestalt. Im a dog right now, bam im giving off bardic music. Bard Im a horse right now, Oh look my AC and move speed are ridicilus. Monk did that polar bear just smite me? palidin that monkey just cast grease. i swear it. wiz/sorcerer any would make for cool. yes, monk does.. a monk with the feat Kung Fu Genius uses INT (which is why I said 'and a feat')
caeruleus 01-08-07, 01:27 PM	yes, monk does.. a monk with the feat Kung Fu Genius uses INT (which is why I said 'and a feat') Where is that feat printed?
Silverthumb128 01-08-07, 01:41 PM	yes, monk does.. a monk with the feat Kung Fu Genius uses INT (which is why I said 'and a feat') I already said that. Where is that feat printed? Google's telling me its Dragon #319.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-08-07, 01:48 PM	Forgive me for not wanting to get enervated. 1. Take Enervation Endurance (Complete Psionic) 2. Use the ability judiciously. You don't have to go full bore every time. 3. Roll well. I think you're making unfair assumptions about the class. I've seen them at work; I've played a wilder twice and to great effect each time. In fact, I've played a wilder/egoist, serving admirably as both healer and blaster. It's a better class than you give it credit for. Warblade......dude, c'mon. It's not fair to counter "vanilla ice cream is good" with "but it's not cheesecake."
claypigeons 01-08-07, 01:57 PM	I think you're making unfair assumptions about the class. I've seen them at work; I've played a wilder twice and to great effect each time. In fact, I've played a wilder/egoist, serving admirably as both healer and blaster. It's a better class than you give it credit for. Perhaps it's my intense hatred for crappy and gradually worsening class abilities. Like fighter bonus feats, truenaming... Class abilities that get weaker or less useful as you level suck. A lot. Perhaps that is my reason for disliking the wilder so much. Sure the shortcomings of the ability can be overcome with feats.. but why should they have to be?
Tyler Do'Urden 01-08-07, 01:59 PM	Intense hatred is bad. You should have that looked at.
strenoth 01-08-07, 02:43 PM	there's also a variation called Carmine Monk printed in.. hrrm, was it Shining South? anyway, in a FR book.
Mahrke 01-08-07, 02:46 PM	I'm partial to Duskblade 20 | Wizard 8/Abjurant Champion 5/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. You can channel you wizard spells into your attacks, and sac 9th level spellslots to Arcane Strike. You also have access to Wraithstrike, et all. The two important saves, and access to all the utility of a wizard make this a powerful character.
OravennasBrother 01-08-07, 03:43 PM	A very abusive one is Main Class 20/Monk4 + 1st Monk PrC2+ 2nd Monk PrC2+...8th Monk Prc2 (or even Main 20/Monk4 and 16 Monk PrC's at 1) Since Most Monk PrC's I've seen require 5th level characters you can't take them any sooner. Depending on the main class different abuses can occur. All have incredible Base Saves (Either +28 or +36) If the Main Class is an arcane spellcaster you have full arcane casting abilities which are themselves quite powerful, without the weakness inherent in the class (Low HD, weak AC, only 1 good save) If Main is Divine then the gain is less and some ohter set of PrC's would probably be better. Still the benefit of high wisdom is enhanced. If Main is a Fighter (or worse Kensai) the WF/WS/GWF/GWS can really increase the impact of unarmed strikes. Plus the Full BAB more than makes up for the loss of effective BAB from the monk MC'ing. The Same applies to other MElee classes, though as least it is imposible to Gestalt Barbarian with Monk. Paladin may seem like a powerful option, but the increase in good attributes wanted can be problematic. Rogues again benefit from increased Hit Die and from better unarmored AC, and if the can flank an enemy then Flurry of blows can be quite powerful. And they get those ridiculous saves along with their theiveng Skill Points etc.
Silverthumb128 01-08-07, 04:36 PM	there's also a variation called Carmine Monk printed in.. hrrm, was it Shining South? anyway, in a FR book. Yup, I said that already, too, in the same post where I mentioned Kung Fu Genius. Where's my :big sigh: smiley? Also, its in Champions of Valor.
ShinoAburame 01-08-07, 05:29 PM	I can't really think of anything over the top, considering gestalt is intended to be broken. Gestalt is like Mortal Kombat. Shino: I use to love Sub-Zero, he was cheap. Pete: It's Mortal Kombat, everyone was cheap. But I suppose druid/barbarian. Go berserk, plow the enemy, then when he starts wearing down your HP, wildshape to recover, plow your enemy some more.
Mysk 01-08-07, 05:55 PM	Personaly I am an avid fan of an Artificer/Wizard Gestalt. Straight 20 on both sides . Nets a feat every 3 levels, 4 levels, and 5 levels so you can buff, blast, and craft quite easily. While I don't know if you'd consider it "broken", I personally consider it one of the stronger gestalts out there for sheer flexibility. It has its holes, BAB, Saves, HP are all tragic for a gestalt game, but when buffing spells come into play most of these are compensated for in one way or another.
Ariath Ska'Vhor 01-09-07, 12:58 AM	Probably not broken, but I'm a big fan of the beguiler+rogue/assassin. Two sets of Int based casting, full sneak attack, death attack, two ways to exploit a flat-footed foe, perfectly capable spellcaster in light armor...Yeah, I like that.
ff6shadow 01-10-07, 12:07 AM	Last thing I'd ever want to see Gestalted. Druid 20 // Monk 1/Cleric 19. That should say it all.
theotherdraxen 01-10-07, 12:12 AM	I thought that Paladin/Swordsage came off as pretty broken: full BAB, all good saves, cha to all saves, 6+int skills, and 1d10 hit dice with the most maneuvers/stances available to any class.
Enamel_32 01-10-07, 12:17 AM	Here's a trick I found with gestalt builds. If you offset one of the sides with a 1-level dip in something like fighter, you can get a BAB of 20 with any combination of classes, assuming you aren't using fractional BAB.
obrysii 01-10-07, 12:27 AM	A big trick for Gestalt builds: Savage progressions. 1. Gold Dragon 20//Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10/Cleric 7 2. Black Ethergaunt 20//Cleric X/Geomancer 10/Cleric X 3. Dread Necromancer 20//Warmage 5/Sand Shaper 7/Fiend-Blooded 8 4. Werebear 9/Warshaper 4/Warhulk 7//Monk 20 5. Wizard 6/Geomancer 10/Lich 2/Wizard 2//Cleric 18/Lich 2 1. As a Dry Lich Gold Dragon, you possess massive Cha bonuses and massive Wis bonuses. You cast as a 18th level Cleric and should have at least 40 AC. You have 5 phylactories, can fly tirelessly at 800ft/round, and will likely out melee the tank. You have Unholy Toughness, and an innate +6 to Cha. 2. As a Black Ethergaunt Geomancer, you cast as a 17th level wizard and a 20th level cleric. You set your DCs by your highest mod between Int and Wis, and cast all spells as if they were divine (ie, no armor failure). You have an innate +20 Int. 3. An extreme number of spells per day, plus 42 spells you'd never ordinarily have. Everything is based on Cha, and Fiend-blooded gives bonuses to Cha. 4. Think 50+ Str, the ability to be Enlarged, and 30+ft reach. Plus all of the monk goodies. 5. Similar to the Black Ethergaunt, but with Lich thrown in there (which only reduces CL by 2 total).
scout989 01-10-07, 02:55 AM	Perhaps not anywhere near so good (at being broken) as those already mentioned, but here's one that I just came up w/- and I like it. Wizard16/Abjurant Champion4//Swashbuckler3/Fighter3/Duelist10/Whatever Floats Your Boat4. Twfing, of course. With Int to damage and AC (up to 10 points, for AC), plus arcane boost, plus elaborate parry, plus (if your DM isn't an ass) Greater Mage Armor for a +10 armor bonus, this should be a potent combination. Oh yeah, and 20th level spellcasting, of course. I hate to take a 3rd level of fighter, but of course, if you're playing this combo, there's no reason not to be a gray elf- and who wants an XP penalty?
Sphyre 01-10-07, 03:30 AM	What kind of insane combinations have you guys come up with for gestalt? Here's a few I've found: 4) Monk / Scout: Anyone who can catch you gets a cookie. Your strategy consists of running past the foe, unleashing a flurry of blows on the way and getting bonus damage because you moved more than 10 feet, as well as a nice boost to AC. Spring Attack is essential to this build. Yes, it's quite easy to find 'insane' combos when you implement a houserule such as gestalt and you don't implement it with a grain of salt, such as the suggestion to remove mystic theurge type classes. However, in your example here, it seems that you are implying that you can FoB on a non-fullround attack. If this is houserule that you play with, please inform us now, but it's against the rules otherwise. (See Full-round attacks in the combat portion of the PHB) Spring attack, short of the Spring attack multiple attack feat chain in the PHBII, only allows one attack between the movement. Sure, you can go around, forcing both people to get 1 attack a round (You spring attacking away, and the enemy charging you constantly, both for 1 attack) But I hardly call that an "insane" or "broken" combo.
Kinghappo 01-10-07, 04:02 AM	what about an articifer/camelion combo? i don't have my books handy but being able to fake almost any spell while you fake the basic classes should give you access to preetymuch anything your heart can think of? just get you a weapon of spell storing and then load it up with divine might or richious might (sp) (i forgot which one) and no matter what you can pick up that weapon and become.....HE MAN!!!!
Magrus 01-10-07, 04:28 AM	Personally, the thinks I could do with a ninja/fighter, monk/cleric or monk/fighter could be incredibly fun to play out I think. Broken? I'm sure I could come up with something with each of those. Fun is more important I think though.
Caliborn 01-10-07, 05:04 AM	Archivist20//Warblade 8/Hulking Hurler2/Blood Storm Blade10 1. Make sure to take far shot to doule your thrown weapon range. 2. Polymorph into a Stone Giant for a base range increment of 180 feet. 3. Cast Giant Size. 4. Grab your small mountian with the Distance enhancemant. 5. Kill everything within a half mile radius in one round. 6. ??? 7. Profit!
bitnine 01-10-07, 08:42 AM	If you've got the ability scores, Duskblade//Cleric is sorta strong (while still being a simple singe//single). Note: be sure to remember your DM's expression the first time you use a whirlwind heal on the party like some sort of sadistic war weaver.
obrysii 01-10-07, 09:17 AM	Archivist20//Warblade 8/Hulking Hurler2/Blood Storm Blade10 1. Make sure to take far shot to doule your thrown weapon range. 2. Polymorph into a Stone Giant for a base range increment of 180 feet. 3. Cast Giant Size. 4. Grab your small mountian with the Distance enhancemant. 5. Kill everything within a half mile radius in one round. 6. ??? 7. Profit! How did you initially qualify for Hulking Hurler? As far as I know, the ability to Polymorph into a Large creature does NOT qualify you for that PrC.
mkill 01-10-07, 10:10 AM	Last thing I'd ever want to see Gestalted. Druid 20 // Monk 1/Cleric 19. That should say it all. Druid and Cleric are too similar. Both have d8 hd, 3/4 BAB progression, very similar spell list. What's the point in gestalting here? How is this better than a Cleric/Cleric or a Druid/Druid? All I see is a wasted opportunity to get either better hit die and BAB and more combat abilities, or another Wis-based casting class, or nifty prestige classes that increase stuff like Wild Shape or Turn Undead. How did you initially qualify for Hulking Hurler? As far as I know, the ability to Polymorph into a Large creature does NOT qualify you for that PrC. Probably this should include some savage progression that makes you large.
obrysii 01-10-07, 10:36 AM	Here is a break-down of the Warhulk Werebear I posted above. Monk 1 // Werebear 1 Iron Will*, Stunning Fist, Combat Expertise Monk 2 // Werebear 2 Combat Reflexes Monk 3 // Werebear 3 Power Attack, Endurance* Monk 4 // Werebear 4 Dex +1 Monk 5 // Werebear 5 Run* Monk 6 // Werebear 6 Improved Natural Attack, Improved Trip Monk 7 // Werebear 7 Track* Monk 8 // Werebear 8 Wis +1 Monk 9 // Werebear 9 Cleave Monk 10 // Warshaper 1 Monk 11 // Warshaper 2 Monk 12 // Warshaper 3 Multigrab, Str +1 Monk 13 // Warshaper 4 Monk 14 // Warhulk 1 Monk 15 // Warhulk 2 Extended Reach Monk 16 // Warhulk 3 Str +1 Monk 17 // Warhulk 4 Monk 18 // Warhulk 5 Multiattack Monk 19 // Warhulk 6 Monk 20 // Warhulk 7 Improved Multigrab, Str +1 *Werebear bonus feats Stat Rolled Racial Level Item Class Total Str 15 +18 +3 +13 +18 67 (+28) Dex 14 +2 +1 +4 +0 21 (+5) Con 14 +8 +0 +6 +4 32 (+11) Int 11 -2 +0 +0 +0 9 (-1) Wis 15 +2 +1 +6 +0 24 (+7) Cha 13 +0 +0 +0 +0 13 (+1) Hit Points: 13d8+7d12+220 (Avg. 318hp) Armor Class: 46 (+7 natural +5 dexterity +7 wisdom +4 monk +8 armor +5 deflection, -2 size) Speed: Wood Elf Form 90’, Hybrid Form 90’, Bear Form 100’ Space/Reach: Wood Elf Form: 5’/15’; Huge Hybrid Form: 15’/25’; Huge Bear Form (Grappling form): 15’/20’ BaB/Grapple: +15/+51 Full Attack Action: Unarmed Strike +43/+43/+43/+38/+34, Bite +32, Claw +32 Damage: Unarmed Strike 14d8+28, Bite 6d6+14, Claw 4d6+14 Base Saves: Fort +23, Reflex +18, Will +21 Saves with Items: Fort +28, Reflex +23, Will +26 Carrying Capacity (Huge Bear Form): Light Load: Up to 132,864 pounds Medium Load: 132,865 – 266,112 pounds Heavy Load: 266,112 – 399,360 pounds Maximum Lift: 798,720 pounds Maximum Drag: 1,996,800 pounds With 3 epic levels, bumping Warhulk up to level 10, you gain Str +6 as well as the ability to strike everyone within your reach (25') with full attack actions. With Improved Multigrab, you can grapple enemies without yourself being considered grapple, and as you have a +51 to grapple, you can easily grapple with Colossal enemies and win. The average damage for one full attack is: 455 damage for unarmed strikes, and 63 total from the Bite and the Claw attack. Making the total 518 damage per round. Assuming no critical hits.
Morwen 01-10-07, 02:02 PM	The problem with savage progressions on one "side" of the gestalt is that you completely negate the non-HD (or LA) levels. I'd probably rule that you couldn't gestalt that part away (so on the LA-levels, you couldn't take levels on the other side of the gestalt, or something like that).
obrysii 01-10-07, 02:32 PM	The problem with savage progressions on one "side" of the gestalt is that you completely negate the non-HD (or LA) levels. I'd probably rule that you couldn't gestalt that part away (so on the LA-levels, you couldn't take levels on the other side of the gestalt, or something like that). Yeah. But RAW, what I posted is totally legal. What my DM did, however (in regards to my gold dragon build) was change the racial HD size to the same as my class HD, so I didn't have any particular bonus over the other PC.
jagggar 01-10-07, 03:48 PM	The problem with savage progressions on one "side" of the gestalt is that you completely negate the non-HD (or LA) levels. I'd probably rule that you couldn't gestalt that part away (so on the LA-levels, you couldn't take levels on the other side of the gestalt, or something like that). Don't you more or less negate the d4 HD, poor BAB, and poor Fort when you gestalt Fighter//Wizard? What my DM did, however (in regards to my gold dragon build) was change the racial HD size to the same as my class HD, so I didn't have any particular bonus over the other PC. Interesting solution. I'd allow a savage progression on one side before I allowed a Wizard20//Fighter1/Sorcerer19 (or same such build) to have a +20 BAB.
Radijs 01-10-07, 04:40 PM	The martial adepts from tome of battle tend to lend themselves well for gestalt. Though the saves wouldn't be optimal a swordsage/rogue will make a dreadfully sneaky character.
ff6shadow 01-10-07, 09:47 PM	Druid and Cleric are too similar. Both have d8 hd, 3/4 BAB progression, very similar spell list. What's the point in gestalting here? How is this better than a Cleric/Cleric or a Druid/Druid? All I see is a wasted opportunity to get either better hit die and BAB and more combat abilities, or another Wis-based casting class, or nifty prestige classes that increase stuff like Wild Shape or Turn Undead. Probably this should include some savage progression that makes you large. I just didn't include a prestige class to keep it simple. I'm sue the basic would love some insane prestige class, but even in this form, is scary. Sure, you could get better BAB or HD with thos levels, but with Wild Shape, two spells lists with Healing, Divine Power, Wisdom to AC, Improved Grapple from Monk, and Turn Undead for Divine Metamagic, your plenty scary with just base classes.
NiQil 01-10-07, 11:40 PM	I currently am playing in a campaign running an elven rogue/warlock gestalt build...and it's getting really nasty really fast. Hideous Blow is your friend....but the first two levels until I could take Weapon Finesse at 3rd were brutal in a gestalt setting. But being able to deal 1d6 weapon damage + 2d6 sneak attack and 2d6 EB damage in a single attack can be a thing of beauty. Especially when the other characters are a fighter/monk TWF'er (a great flanking partner with that extra monk speed) and a cleric/favored soul (or flavored sole, as my daughter says)..he's the walking band-aid. The downsides to the rogue/warlock is you are still stuck with medium attack progression, crappy fort save, and you are slightly MAD (Dex, Int, Cha). But having UMD along for the ride makes up for most of that. I also must say that the fighter/soulknife is a great combo. I've played one to great effect. All good saves, skills from the soulknife side that a fighter can actually use, and all of your money gets to go into armor and then magical items since the most expensive thing (your weapon) is taken care of. And being able to add all of those feats to amp up the mind blade is nice. Another combo I have seen tinkered with to great effect is a bard/warmage. Light armor allowed on both sides...all that blasting power to go with the bard's utility spells and songs...not very MAD, and the skills go well together, in my opinion. The bard side helps fill in the primary warmage weakness of no utility spells. A rogue/cleric also works fairly well, in my opinion....at first blush, they don't seem to go together, but once you actually set out to build one, they seem to work rather well. However, probably the most broken combo I have seen personally played is a monk/cleric...<shudder>
Dragoloth 01-10-07, 11:46 PM	My favorite is warforged fighter 20/artificer 15 /juggernaut 5. Full BAB, immunities galore, and the ability to buff and heal yourself. Have also played Half-ogre barbarian 20/fighter 9/ frenzied berzerker 10.
Valdrax 01-11-07, 01:24 AM	Combine a trip-monkey Fighter with a battlefield controller Dragonfire Adept to get a character that completely denies enemies the ability to move while you sit there and bake them. DFA / Sorceror is also fun, though not broken. You can apply breath effects, draconic breath feats, and breath spells all at once. Druid 20 // Fighter 2 / Monk 3 / Warshaper 5 / Master of Many Forms 10 makes for a ludicrous stacking of wild shape powers and full BAB with Monk abilities and two bonus feats. (No reason not to go for the Druid Avenger variant from UA for raging fun.) Monk / Psion (Egoist) stacks well as a Monk's usual unarmed attack focus becomes augmented by Egoist powers and removes most of the weaknesses of an Egoist. [Any martial class] / Nomad is also fun, especially if you use the teleport cheese from the King of Smack build. Paladin / Monk with the Carmadine Monk feat makes for a fun saving throw machine with good martial abilities while Hexblade / Monk gets both Mettle & Evasion. Abuse of Bloodlines (also from UA) lets you get 11-12 caster/manifester levels in 4 classes at once: 1st -- Cleric / Wizard 2nd -- Druid / Psion 3rd -- Bloodline ability (+1 to all classes and again at 6th & 12th levels) 4th -- ???? 5th -- Profit! Advancing Sorceror & Dragon Disciple at once makes Dragon Disciple stop sucking so much in the same way that stacking Barbarian / War Hulk "fixes" War Hulk. That's just off the top of my head.
Xadera 01-11-07, 02:57 AM	>:-3 Favored class: Sorc, Paly of Tyranny 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2, Ascetic Mage and Arcane Strike feats. Right there u have Charisma to spells, AC, and all saves, and not a single multiclass penalty. Drop a spell to gain large bonuses to the already high base attack you should have if done right. From there add PrCs that boost attacks or whatever else you find fun. Simple, easy, pwns. Add some templates for immunities and more bonuses to Cha and blam. Illusionist Wizard+Master Specialist (just 4 lvls if u want), some Swordsage for prereques for Shadow Sun Ninja (only 5 there), dab on the Shadow Trickery feat, Spell Focuses (Illusion) and then whatever more you want = +6 bonus to DC without much effort (you can go far beyond) to your Shadow Evoc and Conj spells, when things get tricky just cast a Darkness spell of some sort, shut your eyes, and you can go combat mage if u please. Have some Iaijutsu Focus from Oriental Adventures and you're dealing bonus damage all over the place. Rogue/Master Throw + Invisible Blade (offset order so you gain sneak from everything). Using a midget (gnome, halfthing, w/e), feint as free action (thx to Invisi Blade), throw 2 daggers at once with palm throw. Since most things will be larger than u, the attacks can now be touch attacks. Repeat 3 more times with full attack bonus, then repeat 3 more times again with Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Assuming u succeeded at feint every time, that's effectively Sneak Attack x 14 when within 30'. Heavy Fortification owns u though, so not that broke. Some Monster Class with large Str bonus (Treant is nice)+ Frenzied Bezerker(10)+ Primeval(3). Hi, I just turned into the uber-trogdor with +20 Str bonus (3 times per day to start, more with feats if u wish) and a whole other progression still free to me for more pwnage. In our campaign, this stuff is standard, and barely touches how broke (fun) it can get, these are the things i could remember off the top of my head. Our DM can easily keep up a lot of the time with other builds that deal 50+ damage on single attacks with 4 or more attacks in a round and ones that have a 74 AC. But those are in my DM's hands, so I don't know most of the specs yet.
Xadera 01-11-07, 03:17 AM	Oh, and I forgot to mention. This fails: [/QUOTE] Full Attack Action: Unarmed Strike +43/+43/+43/+38/+34, Bite +32, Claw +32 Damage: Unarmed Strike 14d8+28, Bite 6d6+14, Claw 4d6+14 ... The average damage for one full attack is: 455 damage for unarmed strikes, and 63 total from the Bite and the Claw attack. Making the total 518 damage per round. Assuming no critical hits.[/QUOTE] Cause you can't use Natural Attacks in combination with the attacks from your base attack bonus (aka, no flurry of blows). So you're dealing a bit less damage :P Otherwise, as for Template and Monsters as characters, count Monster Classes as Base Classes and Templates as PrCs for the purposes of Gestalt (only one PrC at a time and you have to keep track of Monster Classes for multiclassing). A Monster Class has a number of levels equal to the Monster's HD + LA, Templates are just LA. However, in Gestalt I rule LA's are 1.5 times normal and Monster classes I tend to ignore the HD rule and strip the monster of bonuses from HD (it's not too balanced with everything else you can do otherwise).
RazielK 01-11-07, 11:13 AM	As it says in the actual book, Monk/Cleric. Flurry of Blows+Inflict Critical Wounds=pwn
obrysii 01-11-07, 12:30 PM	Cause you can't use Natural Attacks in combination with the attacks from your base attack bonus (aka, no flurry of blows). So you're dealing a bit less damage :P Incorrect. You can use your natural attacks as part of your full attack routine (at a -5 penalty from your lowest attack bonus). Except naturally, one of the claw attacks is replaced by the weapon attack. So what I posted was not in error.
Xadera 01-11-07, 02:41 PM	Incorrect. You can use your natural attacks as part of your full attack routine (at a -5 penalty from your lowest attack bonus). Except naturally, one of the claw attacks is replaced by the weapon attack. So what I posted was not in error. I thought you couldn't because flurry is full attack, and attacking with each of your natual weapons is another full attack. If it was a normal full attack with natural weapons being treated as multiweapon fighting then maybe. But I was just poking fun at you're already massive damage, so it doesn't really matter. However, if you can tell me the source of whatever negates this, then it would be much appreciated as I could abuse it too ;)
Dracomortis 01-11-07, 08:33 PM	Wow, I just officially banned racial progressions from gestalt games...that's some sick stuff. But alas, I have come up with the most broken combination ever: version 2.0 psion 20 / whatever you want because it doesn't matter.
EyeontheMountain 01-11-07, 09:39 PM	Here's a trick I found with gestalt builds. If you offset one of the sides with a 1-level dip in something like fighter, you can get a BAB of 20 with any combination of classes, assuming you aren't using fractional BAB. Oldest abuse of Gestalt. Use fractional saves and BAB if you want gestalt to work even halfway.
Xadera 01-11-07, 10:06 PM	Wow, I just officially banned racial progressions from gestalt games...that's some sick stuff. But alas, I have come up with the most broken combination ever: version 2.0 psion 20 / whatever you want because it doesn't matter. lolz. If u wanna do that, then also add 1 lvl Mahou Bujin (you get melee attacks as a 3.0 monk's flurry), 1 lvl Shiba Protector (Wis bonus to attacks and damage), 1 lvl 3.0 Deulist (Int to AC), 1 lvl Monk (Wis to AC), 2 lvls Paly (Cha to Saves) wielding Vorpal Bladed Gauntlets with Improved Crit and something else that stacked with Improved Crit in 3.0 for a Crit Range of 9-20 and with 3.0 Power Critical it's auto-success. Srry I can't dip into 2.0 stuff cause I don't have access to them right now. Although, all this can be done in a normal campaign > .> On a more serious note, banning racial progressions isn't always the best idea. In fact, I find gestalt to be awesome because you can actually use a racial progression without being nearly useless. Gestalt also allows for things like Spellfire Channeler, Invisible Blade (along with a lot of those fairly underbalanced classes from the Completes), and wierd combos like Cleric/Frenzied Berzerker with the Poverty/Peace/Nonviolence Vows (which is NOT a gestalt broken combo, it's quite counter productive actually). For racial progressions, just multiply LA's by 1.5, or make it single progression for the duration of the progression (which someone earlier suggested).
Crimson_Concerto 01-11-07, 10:27 PM	As it says in the actual book, Monk/Cleric. Flurry of Blows+Inflict Critical Wounds=pwn Isn't Inflict Critical a standard action to cast? I dont' see how that works with Flurry of Blows at all. But otherwise, WIS to AC is great for a Cleric.
Valdrax 01-12-07, 01:56 AM	Cast harm and hold the charge in round 1. Flurry of blows in round 2. ???? Profit! Seriously, though, you could always get the Prophecy's Shepherd feat from Magic of Eberron so let you quicken 1 cure/inflict spell per round.
Xadera 01-12-07, 04:20 AM	Cast harm and hold the charge in round 1. Flurry of blows in round 2. ???? Profit! Seriously, though, you could always get the Prophecy's Shepherd feat from Magic of Eberron so let you quicken 1 cure/inflict spell per round. Spell discharges on first attack that hits. Not very much profit.
starfire311 01-12-07, 12:14 PM	Not broken, but Crusader/divine mind would be a fabulous team player and one ehck of a tank, not only are you gonna kick a lot of butt, the power level of your group just went up by a lot.
Vyvyan Basterd 01-12-07, 01:32 PM	Warlock/Rogue (Effective Troubleshooter) I like Warlock/Scout better. The Warlock suffers from not being able to use iterative attacks. The Scout gets extra damage and AC when moving 10 feet or more, thus no iterative attacks. It meshes well. You'd only get SA dmg if you win initiative with EB and are within 30 feet. You get Skirmish every round that you can move enough and get close.
UCsimplyme 01-12-07, 01:34 PM	While not the greatest in power level, my favorites are: Duskblade 20/Ghaele 20:Great racial combo which gives you great stats, a good mix of arcane and divine spells with some top notch spell like abilties. Fighter 20/Swordsage 20: I simply love this combo for Eberron games where I want to be the perfect Double Scimitar wielding Valenar :) Focusing maneuvers on Desert, Shadow and Tiger with a full compliment of feats for TWP is <3. Artificer 20/Spellthief 20: Make magic and take it away...what isn't to love? Soulknife 20/Lurk 20: While this combo is lacking the full bab Attack progression, I just love the synergy. A soulknife with a list of powers who can spend points on charging up his melee attacks. You simply don't need a whole bunch of attacks when you are hitting REALLY hard with one or two. (P.s. The lurk's augment attack should have been what the soulknife had from the beginning instead of Psychic Strike).
Mitsukai_sama 01-12-07, 06:23 PM	I have plenty of other builds to post, but I intend to use them in the group I DM for, members of which frequent these boards. This is based on a higher-level, more MAD build I've used in the past (I had the Cha to merit diverging into Paladin of Freedom, for the stacked healing with Champion of Corellon and Cha to saves). Wizard 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Duelist 10/Champion of Corellon 2 Having a high Int and a high Dex will be paramount to using this build as effectively as possible. Needless to say, the martial progression centers around the Duelist class (rapier is a nice weapon of choice). Those two additional fighter feats will be useful for picking up PrC prerequisites quicker. It goes without saying: don't waste one on Weapon Finesse, because you're getting it from the Swashbuckler anyway. Better to pick up proficiency in the Elven Thinblade and the like, as these feats will allow you to enter Champion of Corellon later. Your Warblade maneuvers and stances will be moderately useful (Blood in the Water is a nice little boost to have, with the amount of critical hits you'll be scoring in melee), but the Int synergy is what we're looking at in those three levels: another +3 to your Reflex saves is always nice, but the Int bonus to critical confirmation isn't capped. Better invest in something that makes use of that large threat range. Not only will the Swashbuckler give you the Weapon Finesse feat as a bonus at first level and a minor boost to your Reflex saves the one following, but its third-level ability is what really makes it shine. Insightful Strike allows you to add your Int bonus as a bonus to your weapon damage rolls while using that rapier, in addition to your Str. Can't argue with an extra 10 or so damage with each thrust. Next, the PrC that makes the whole thing tick. In addition to the +2d6 damage you'll pick up while using that rapier, and the ability to gracefully charge over obstacles insurmountable by other characters, Canny Defense allows you to add your Int bonus up to your Duelist level as a bonus to your AC. Sure, you can't use armor, but no self-respecting wizard would deign to do so while risking the chance of spell failure, right? Besides, the money you're not spending on armor could just as easily be invested into a good set of Bracers of Armor. Given your presumably high Int bonus, you win big in the long run. And in exchange for a -4 to attack, assuming you have 5 ranks in Tumble (you should), you can net yourself an additional +13 to AC thanks to the Elaborate Parry ability while fighting defensively. Not only that, you can deflect arrows with your weapon, to boot. Finally, Champion of Corellon. The bonus feat at first level is nice, and Corellon's Blessing is a nice little way to keep a friend stable until the cleric can get to him. Elegant Strike, however, allows you to add your Dex bonus to weapon damage rolls while using that rapier of yours. To recap, that's base damage, plus enhancements, Str modifier, Dex modifier, Int modifier, and an additional 2d6 damage from Precise Strike. When making 4 or 5 attacks per round, you can see where this adds up pretty quickly... ouch. And I haven't even begun on the Wizard side of the progression. Obviously, your spells will be difficult to resist thanks to the Int synergy. The extra metamagic feats will be a great boon, allowing you to do things like Quickened True Strike when that rapier absolutely needs to hit. And should your weapon attacks fail, you have a plethora of spells you can use to buff (to make yourself even more difficult to touch), blast, confound, or flee as the situation may merit. One devastating combination is an Improved Disarm from a hasted attack, followed by a well-placed Mordenkainen's Disjunction, leaving them to watch in horror as their precious magic weapon is rendered useless when they can't use their own Will save to protect it. If you're lucky, you may even take out a few more items while you're at it. Similarly distressing is the use of the Disarming Strike maneuver, followed by a Quickened Disintegrate on the removed weapon (provided of course that it is your Arcane Thesis). So many other cruel things you can do, but that should be enough to get you started. :]
Sixth of Infinity 01-12-07, 06:50 PM	I like Warblade//Scout Lots of cool abilities with warblade to let you full attack with movement (sudden leap early then later switch to usng press the advantage). I also think fighter 10/Dervish 10//Scout 20 And if you allow savage progressions Barbarian 20//Figher 1/Weretiger 9/Frenzied Berserker 10
RazielK 01-12-07, 07:53 PM	These are all multiclass not gestault.
obrysii 01-12-07, 08:10 PM	These are all multiclass not gestault. No. They are gestalt. The // shows one side vs. the other side of the build.
sedqon 01-13-07, 02:29 AM	no one has mentioned it, so i will. warblade//psion, anyone? Full BAB, Full manifesting, snazzy intelligence synergy, d12 hit die, and two bonus feat progressions. Also, contrary to what someone posted, i do believe you keep both bonus feat progressions, since they aren't actually the same, even in the case of the psychic warrior//fighter. Also, probably less broken, ninja//druid. I've never seen one played, but the idea of an invisible bear with sneak attack makes me cry. Small animal forms would also be handy for infiltration.
claypigeons 01-13-07, 02:57 AM	Full BAB, Full manifesting, snazzy intelligence synergy, d12 hit die, and two bonus feat progressions. That depends on who you ask. Some people say that progressions shared by two classes arent counted, and you only get the best (this include sneak attack, feats and divine grace). Either way, it's not a bad gestalt combo. Also, probably less broken, ninja//druid. I've never seen one played, but the idea of an invisible bear with sneak attack makes me cry. Sneak attack is amazing. Sudden strike blows. Sudden strike makes me laugh.
Sphyre 01-13-07, 04:06 AM	That depends on who you ask. Some people say that progressions shared by two classes arent counted, and you only get the best (this include sneak attack, feats and divine grace). My question to that really is... how do you define which one is "better?" The one that has more? The one that comes first? They don't give the same feats, so they really aren't the same progression. One person might value one over the other depending on their focus. The fact that their bonus feats rather class abilities that reproduce what a feat does is a stretch to try to deny someone the bonus of gestalting. The only advantage of them actually being feats is that you might take one as a prerequite to another. If you don't want combos, don't gestalt. I'm normally open-minded to multiple interpretations of the rules, esspecially because it doesn't apply to me, but this just strikes me as someone trying to screw some people and not others :rolleyes:
claypigeons 01-13-07, 04:38 AM	My question to that really is... how do you define which one is "better?" The one that has more? The one that comes first? They don't give the same feats, so they really aren't the same progression. One person might value one over the other depending on their focus. The fact that their bonus feats rather class abilities that reproduce what a feat does is a stretch to try to deny someone the bonus of gestalting. The only advantage of them actually being feats is that you might take one as a prerequite to another. If you don't want combos, don't gestalt. I'm normally open-minded to multiple interpretations of the rules, esspecially because it doesn't apply to me, but this just strikes me as someone trying to screw some people and not others :rolleyes: I have played under DMs that have interpretted it that way. It' stupid. But it was also his way of stopping a player from taking levels of Fighter and the Feat Rogue to get a nice boost in feats, as well as Rogue and SA Fighter to get instane sneak attack.
Grizzled Gryphon 01-13-07, 10:58 AM	So, in your games, if someone plays a Sorc/Wizard, they only get spells from one of the classes, then? I mean, they are as much the same as the different class features of bonus feats from the fighter and psychic warrior are. That is a bad as saying that a Psion/Wilder doesn't get the pp points from both classes. Or the powers from both classes, too. Anyway, some nice combos I have seen/used are: Warlock/Hexblade This combo almost makes me think they had the gestalt option in mind when they made these two classes. Fighter or Psychic Warrior/Psion or Wilder. A little mad, yes, but the fact that armor doesn't interfere with manifesting is very nice. Warblade/Swordsage This combo is VERY nice. Full BAB, D12 hit die, all good saves, 6 skill points with a good selection of skills, and access to 8 of the nine disciplines.
jagggar 01-13-07, 01:30 PM	I have played under DMs that have interpretted it that way. It' stupid. But it was also his way of stopping a player from taking levels of Fighter and the Feat Rogue to get a nice boost in feats, as well as Rogue and SA Fighter to get instane sneak attack. Okay, I think I can see how there could possibly be an arguement for the Ninja//Rogue, but how in the world are you supposed to argue that the Rogue//SAFighter gets that?
Edymnion 01-13-07, 02:00 PM	Monk//Warlock KAMEHAMEHA!
Grizzled Gryphon 01-13-07, 02:39 PM	Okay, I think I can see how there could possibly be an arguement for the Ninja//Rogue, but how in the world are you supposed to argue that the Rogue//SAFighter gets that? While I haven't looked at the feat rogue in some time, I do recall that the bonus feat feature is identical. So, that wouldn't work. However, if the feature's are different in any way, then they both apply. That is why the Fighters bonus feats (which are all designated such) and the Psychic Warrior bonus feats (which can be either fighter bonus feats or psionic feats) can both be applied to a character. For some reason, other people think they are the same, even though 1) they get different amounts, 2) they have different effects, and 3) it specifically says you can pick fighter bonus feats. Number three alone makes it obvious that fighter bonus feats is a defferent feature.
Sphyre 01-13-07, 06:09 PM	I have played under DMs that have interpretted it that way. It' stupid. But it was also his way of stopping a player from taking levels of Fighter and the Feat Rogue to get a nice boost in feats, as well as Rogue and SA Fighter to get instane sneak attack. Well... A sneak attack fighter "gains the rogue Sneak attack progression" It's the same progression as the rogue sneak attack. It's the same progression, so it doesn't stack. Psion feats and fighter feats are not the same progression because they don't give you type of feat. It's increasing your versatility (as gestalt is designed to do) not your particular strength in one area.
jagggar 01-13-07, 07:04 PM	While I haven't looked at the feat rogue in some time, I do recall that the bonus feat feature is identical. So, that wouldn't work. However, if the feature's are different in any way, then they both apply. That is why the Fighters bonus feats (which are all designated such) and the Psychic Warrior bonus feats (which can be either fighter bonus feats or psionic feats) can both be applied to a character. For some reason, other people think they are the same, even though 1) they get different amounts, 2) they have different effects, and 3) it specifically says you can pick fighter bonus feats. Number three alone makes it obvious that fighter bonus feats is a defferent feature. I agree that the bonus feats from different class lists should stack. I just don't see why a DM would rule that ALL Bonus Feats didn't stack instead of just smacking the player attempting to Fighter//Feat Rogue upside the head.
Mitsukai_sama 01-14-07, 02:18 AM	Okay, I think I can see how there could possibly be an arguement for the Ninja//Rogue, but how in the world are you supposed to argue that the Rogue//SAFighter gets that? Personally, I'd allow it. Why? Were I DMing, the first difficult creature immune to critical hits or wearing Major Reinforcement armor will make the player want to roll another character.
claypigeons 01-14-07, 02:54 AM	Personally, I'd allow it. Why? Were I DMing, the first difficult creature immune to critical hits or wearing Major Reinforcement armor will make the player want to roll another character. That, and the character would be dead anyway. Only have a good Ref save. D6 hit die. Light armour. It would be like coming to a fireball fight covered in lamp oil... you're just asking to be cooked.
Johnny_Angel 01-14-07, 08:11 AM	I've never played a gestault game, but my DM was talking about trying a gestault campaign, so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a few character ideas below: Fighter/Knight ....seems like it would be a pretty strong tank Ranger/Paladin ....favored enemies + smite Knight/Paladin ....mounted combat machine Sorceror/Paladin ....Charisma monster
claypigeons 01-14-07, 09:59 AM	I've never played a gestault game, but my DM was talking about trying a gestault campaign, so I'd appreciate some advice. I have a few character ideas below: Fighter/Knight ....seems like it would be a pretty strong tank Ranger/Paladin ....favored enemies + smite Knight/Paladin ....mounted combat machine Sorceror/Paladin ....Charisma monster What do you want to do? Dont think about what would be 'cool'. Think about what you would actually want to play for an extended amount of time. ...and, for what it's worth (in my opinion), gestalt makes fighters playable. It doesnt have the same affect on paladins. Paladins are still made of liquid suck in gestalt.
Grizzled Gryphon 01-14-07, 10:15 AM	Johnny, what books do you have to work with? From what you have posted, I can see you have the PHB II. Anything else? Well, from that, there are some ideas, but things you probably want to avoid. Yup, the Paladin/Knight would make for a pretty nice tank, but a fighter/Knight, or Fighter/Paladin would work for that role, better. I have done the Fighter/Knight before, and he is a beast. Yup, he wasn't as "optimal" as classes could be, as his saves weren't all good, and his skills sucked, but he was very tough. Even with those supposed drawbacks. Now, for what most poeple here have been saying, where you want to optimize your saves, bab, skills, and abilities to be the most they can be (which isn't a bad idea), the ranger paladin is right up that alley. However, you suffer from MAD at the get-go with a Paladin, so tacking on the ranger just adds to that. Sorcerer Paladin would make for a nice char. With all the synergy with Charisma, you would be impressive. However, this class looks like it would lend itself to a certain kind of play. At lower levels, you would rely on the martial abilities of the paladin half. Not as much as a straight paladin, as you can't wear armor. But, your spells are rather limited at lower levels, so using, say, a bow would be a good idea. However, as you start to get access to 3rd level and higher spells, you will shy away from melee in favor of the massive spell damage you will be doing. One thing most people don't seem to consider in most builds is feats. A Rogue/Sorcerer, for example, doesn't gain any more feats than a regular rogue or sorcerer. And, as we all know, they don't get enough feats as it is. Same problem with the sorcerer/paladin above. With only the regular 7 feats, do you go with divine feats, metamagic feats, or feats related to combat? Which is why Fighter is such a potent part of any gestalt build. Fighter/Wizard? No prob, the wizard half gets the regular feats, and the fighter gets the usual fighter bonus feats. But, feats don't (usually) account for class abilities. As for other nice builds, I have found the Fighter/Rogue to be very nice. Just a fun class to play, there. Of course, all it is is a rogue with full bab and fighter bonus feats, but hey. SA with a greatsword is always fun. Doesn't really sound right, but still...
Mitsukai_sama 01-14-07, 01:26 PM	What do you want to do? Dont think about what would be 'cool'. Think about what you would actually want to play for an extended amount of time. ...and, for what it's worth (in my opinion), gestalt makes fighters playable. It doesnt have the same affect on paladins. Paladins are still made of liquid suck in gestalt. I agree with the first half of this post; think long and hard what you want to play, and then make a build for it. With the absurd amount of options out there today, there are so many combinations that attempting to post the pros and cons of each one would be futile. First, what books do you have access to? And second, is your DM allowing multiclassing, Prestige Classes, savage progressions, templates, etc? The level you are starting at (if above first) would also be helpful. However, provided you're not taking it for more than a few levels, I disagree that Paladins are made entirely of "liquid suck," as it were. Divine Grace cheese is a wonderful way to give your saves an extra +10 boost by virtue of divine power if you have any Cha synergy by Level 20, and the Unearthed Arcana variants on the Paladin allow for three more alignment options. Just be sure to RP accordingly, and watch your multiclassing restrictions. One of my players is using such a build, focusing mostly on using arcane magic in conjunction with augmented melee attacks, and the Divine Grace is quite the hurtle to overcome when I need to throw something challenging at the party (for DMs reading this, its also far from impossible to challenge such a PC, though you may wish to rework Divine Grace in your campaign such that the bonus to saves is capped at your Paladin level, not unlike the Canny Defense AC bonus of the Iaijutsu Master and Duelist).
claypigeons 01-14-07, 05:00 PM	[snip] I disagree that Paladins are made entirely of "liquid suck," [snip] I will clarify my stance a bit. I find the paladin archetype very interesting and engaging. The "knight in shining armour" or the "holy warrior of righteousness" is a great character idea. I love the thought. But the paladin as it is presented in the PHB is not that great. It gets charisma bonus to saves, a free mount and smite evil. Unless you can get your charisma bonus to a decent level, you are still going to have a crappy Will and Reflex save. And it's not like you can really focus on charisma either, considering you are a melee based fighting class. And the mount... It's free. That is the best feature. I can't really complain about it, as there is nothing about which to complain.. it's a mount, and it's free... so "meh". As for smite evil? Five times per DAY. You might make it through 2 encounters if you use it. You could make it all day if you wait for "the big guy". Beyond the class abilities, I find that the archetype cant be fulfilled by other classes. The cleric can pull of the holy warrior aspect. Heck, from a roleplay standpoint, the Favored Soul runs circles around the paladin AND the cleric as the "Holy Warrior". As for the "knight in shining armour"... what makes a knight a knight? just a title? In that case, a fighter is as much a knight as a paladin. There is even an honour-bound class called the Knight now...
Evillain 01-14-07, 05:17 PM	Paladins are different from clerics, fighters and other armored fighters/caster by their social skills and status. the paladin's abilities are used in order to help society and such (remove disease is rarely used on PCs in my campaign). As for smite evil, you can use all 4 uses in one round (at level 16) so adding 64 damage to his full attack and his charisma to hit (wich can be converted to damage with power attack) so it is kinda powerfull, especially vs the bbeg. as for the mount, it's for show? probably, but its nice to be lost in the desert and being able to call a horse.... :p And you forgot the spells, if you just take a look at the spells in the srd some of them are increadibly usefull, Zone of thruth and such are usefull against commoners and other citizens in a town gathering for example. there are alot of healing spells and protective ones. And a few offensive usefull one.. holy sowrd let's you turn a twig into a +5 weapon +2d6 vs evil. how funny is that. Did you see the movie Riddick? when he takes the cup and kills a guy with it? you can do the same... So no paladins are not as combat intensive as other armored classes but he's very important in social interaction. As for the gestalt application... Paladin//sorcerer-geomancer..... muahaha full sorcerer spell casting full plate... nioce drifts and such... I donno think it, or see it underpowerede at all. it is just unconventional.
claypigeons 01-14-07, 06:52 PM	As for the gestalt application... Paladin//sorcerer-geomancer..... muahaha full sorcerer spell casting full plate... nioce drifts and such... I donno think it, or see it underpowerede at all. it is just unconventional. I dont see combining two sub-par (in most games) classes in gestalt as being overpowered. It's useful and survivable... not broken. And there is nice Cha synergy (but it doesnt change my opinion of paladins :P )
RazielK 01-14-07, 06:56 PM	No. They are gestalt. The // shows one side vs. the other side of the build. Sixth of Infinity I like Warblade//Scout Lots of cool abilities with warblade to let you full attack with movement (sudden leap early then later switch to usng press the advantage). I also think fighter 10/Dervish 10//Scout 20 And if you allow savage progressions Barbarian 20//Figher 1/Weretiger 9/Frenzied Berserker 10 and Mitsukai_sama I have plenty of other builds to post, but I intend to use them in the group I DM for, members of which frequent these boards. This is based on a higher-level, more MAD build I've used in the past (I had the Cha to merit diverging into Paladin of Freedom, for the stacked healing with Champion of Corellon and Cha to saves). Wizard 20//Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Duelist 10/Champion of Corellon 2 Are NOT Gestault.
Mitsukai_sama 01-14-07, 07:22 PM	Beyond the class abilities, I find that the archetype cant be fulfilled by other classes. And I would agree there, wholeheartedly in fact; all I was saying is that it has its uses (if only for splash Cha cheese). Just seems I mistook your words is all. :] Paladins are different from clerics, fighters and other armored fighters/caster by their social skills and status. the paladin's abilities are used in order to help society and such (remove disease is rarely used on PCs in my campaign). As for smite evil, you can use all 4 uses in one round (at level 16) so adding 64 damage to his full attack and his charisma to hit (wich can be converted to damage with power attack) so it is kinda powerfull, especially vs the bbeg. Let me start from the beginning of your post, then. +64 damage to a lone full attack, you say? Not to toot my own horn (as the build isn't overly impressive, IMO), but the Duelist build I posted feasibly allows an additional 80 damage per full attack (+10 from Dex and +10 from Int, not uncommon in high-powered gestalt campaigns I see), every round, without burning up uses per day. as for the mount, it's for show? probably, but its nice to be lost in the desert and being able to call a horse.... :p Okay, so you would then admit that this feature isn't all too useful either, also admitting that Remove Disease is hardly ever used on PCs. But let's put that aside. In Gestalt, I can think of many alternatives to using a mount. Say, teleportation for instance. Its nice, but not overly powerful unless your campaign features a lot of mounted combat (not many do). Better off using the PHB2 variant that allows you to double smite damage on a charge, and retain the smite attempt if you miss, followed by levels in something like Fist of Raziel. It almost makes smite interesting... almost. And you forgot the spells, o-noz! if you just take a look at the spells in the srd some of them are increadibly usefull, Zone of thruth and such are usefull against commoners and other citizens in a town gathering for example. there are alot of healing spells and protective ones. And a few offensive usefull one.. holy sowrd let's you turn a twig into a +5 weapon +2d6 vs evil. how funny is that. Did you see the movie Riddick? when he takes the cup and kills a guy with it? you can do the same... I'm sorry to say, but citing Paladin spells as a strength rather than a weak augmentation isn't a very strong argument, especially when the class suffers from MAD from the get-go. Remember, your caster level is half your class level. That means, when you see "1 round/level", you weep, because spell entries refer to your caster level. You take the duration you think you should get, and cut it in half, making you even more useless as a caster. Zone of Truth is incredibly situational. Useful when the need arises, perhaps (maybe Heightened when you know you'll need it, and cast as a Cleric...), but I wouldn't run around with it prepared. Holy Sword renders any other abilities you have on a weapon useless, and bear in mind, it has to be cast on a melee weapon... personally I would rule that a cup or twig is unsuitable for use as such. But aside from that, by the level you get the spell, it is only active for seven rounds. Ten at Level 20. You're talking the length of an encounter, and its not like you have the spell slots to constantly recast it. So no paladins are not as combat intensive as other armored classes but he's very important in social interaction. Paladins good for social interaction? Well, under that logic... so is a Bard. Let's leave it at that. As for the gestalt application... Paladin//sorcerer-geomancer..... muahaha full sorcerer spell casting full plate... nioce drifts and such... I donno think it, or see it underpowerede at all. it is just unconventional. Unconventional, indeed. Unless I'm missing something, enjoy your ASF%. [ ... incomprehensible quoting ... ] Are NOT Gestault. "Gestalt," my friend. Do explain why, though: A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at the same level, although its okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class.
RazielK 01-14-07, 09:56 PM	[QUOTE="Gestalt," my friend. Do explain why, though:[/QUOTE] Because when you Gestalt is is supposed to be the same level i.e. 10 Psion/Fighter Not 10 Psion/2 Wildier/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin.
obrysii 01-14-07, 10:05 PM	Because when you Gestalt is is supposed to be the same level i.e. 10 Psion/Fighter Where'd you pull that from?
Jaisin 01-14-07, 10:38 PM	Currently playing: Aasimar Saint - Knight 15/Prestige Paladin2//Cloistered Cleric 7/Radiant Servant of Lathander 10 (obvious variation on RSoP) Knight//Cleric combos get really evil, really quick. The only missing element is a good reflex save, everything else is taken care of. DMM makes him awful, purely awful.
strenoth 01-14-07, 11:15 PM	Because when you Gestalt is is supposed to be the same level i.e. 10 Psion/Fighter Not 10 Psion/2 Wildier/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin. I think youa re mis understanding a little, because people are short handing. level 1: Psion//wilder level 2: psion//wilder Level 3: Psion//Fighter Level 4: Psion//Fighter Level 5: Psion//Fighter Level 6: Psion//Duskbalde Level 7: Psion//Duskblade Level 8: Psion//paladin Level 9: Psion//Paladin Level 10: Psion//Paladin can be shortened to: 10 Psion//2 Wilder/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin with levels assumed to be in order they appear, all levels of a class taken in a row unless stated otherwise the "//" instead of the "/" gives youthe break between 'sides' of the gestalt.
Mitsukai_sama 01-15-07, 12:15 AM	Because when you Gestalt is is supposed to be the same level i.e. 10 Psion/Fighter Not 10 Psion/2 Wildier/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin. There's no rule stating that... though you could suffer XP penalties for multiclassing, which is why keeping all but one class (running under the assumption that its your favored class) within a level of each other is expected. The above example is fine, assuming you meant 10 Psion//2 Wilder/(etc.), and your favored class is Psion. How you'd play such an MAD build, I'm not sure, but I digress.
Xadera 01-15-07, 12:30 AM	Okay, so you would then admit that this feature isn't all too useful either, also admitting that Remove Disease is hardly ever used on PCs. But let's put that aside. In Gestalt, I can think of many alternatives to using a mount. Say, teleportation for instance. Its nice, but not overly powerful unless your campaign features a lot of mounted combat (not many do). : You sir, fail. You fail for not mentioning the Alternate Paly mounts via Leadership and the gestalt synergy with Battle Maiden and Cavalier :P . Full Paly for best mount, Battle Maiden to add Ride Bonus to AC, Attacks, and Initiative, and Cavalier to add even more Ride Bonus, even a little Kishi Charger for something like a +10 to attacks, AC, and initiative, plus a bunch of other abilities (just watch for the ability overlaps, makes it less powerful). XD
Mitsukai_sama 01-15-07, 12:37 AM	You sir, fail. You fail for not mentioning the Alternate Paly mounts via Leadership and the gestalt synergy with Battle Maiden and Cavalier :P . Full Paly for best mount, Battle Maiden to add Ride Bonus to AC, Attacks, and Initiative, and Cavalier to add even more Ride Bonus, even a little Kishi Charger for something like a +10 to attacks, AC, and initiative, plus a bunch of other abilities (just watch for the ability overlaps, makes it less powerful). XD A mount and synergy associated with it is all well and good... when you can use it. When you're without the chance to use it effectively (reasonably often), what then? Besides, those are all PrCs... PrCs I can use with another tank class that affords me better options while not mounted. I may not get the mount special abilities, but I certainly would get something I can use any other time.
Xadera 01-15-07, 12:53 AM	i didn't say you should really look into it, i said you failed for mentioning why a paly's mount can be worthwhile for gestalt :-3 . as for when? shrink it so u can ride it everywhere >. >
Rathje 01-15-07, 01:22 AM	I'm kind of surprised Incarnate isn't getting much love in this thread. A personal favorite of mine is Incarnate/Ranger. Full BAB, Class Skills, 6+INT Skill Points, d8 Hit Die (meh, but better than d6), plus Soulmelds. Ranger covers all of the Incarnates weaknesses. The hit die could be better, but a class with a large amount of skill points was necessary to help out Incarnate. Not only good in combat, but also insane bonuses to skills, too! Alternatively, Warblade could be substituted, but that's like saying one can trade in your sword for a plasma rifle if you really, really want to.
Red12 01-15-07, 01:29 AM	I'm a fan of Warlock//Artificer. The warlock crafting ability is better than the Artificer ability, so craftinig Items is that much more insane. Its the magic item machine.
RazielK 01-15-07, 01:08 PM	Where'd you pull that from? First and foremost all examples of Gestalt characters are only two classes put together. Second, under the rules on p.72 it says you can only put TWO classes together to make a GESTALT character. Thus: 10 Psion//2 Wilder/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin Is not able to be used because you need to combine only two classes. I can understand this build: 10 Psion/2 Wilder/2 Duskblade//3 Fighter/3 Paladin for a ECl of 15 instead of 10. But I do not see anywhere in the rules that lets you combine more then two classes at any level. Under Class Features on p. 73 it states: "A gestalt character follows a smiliar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characterists." If I am misinterpereting this please let me know, but please don't be a jerk about it either. I always thought this to mean a character either has to choose another 2 classes, which would make them a multiclass gestalt or continue with their normal progression, instead of keeping 1 class (the Psion in this case) and choosing a different class level to couple it.
obrysii 01-15-07, 01:33 PM	You are the only one who has seen it this way. The PHB almost always refure to a singular character class. They barely think about multiclassing. The same is said for the gestalt. They did not add anything because they figured it was obvious that multiclassing was still possible. I'm pretty sure it even states that you can't have two PrC's at the same time. There are precious few PrCs that can be accessed without multiclassing.
Dracomortis 01-15-07, 02:36 PM	I think he's under the mistaken impression that we're trying to put more than one class at a time for one level (i.e. sorcerer 1/wizard 1/fighter 1 at 1st level), which is not what we're saying. Psion 10//fighter 5/psychic warrior 5 means that for levels 1-5 you take psion//fighter, and for levels 6-10 you take psion//psychic warrior. This is perfectly within the rules.
MarkL 01-15-07, 03:06 PM	Warblade/psion anyone?
Fuzzy_Logic 01-15-07, 03:30 PM	I'm fond of Paladin/Warlock. Not broken at all, but veyr well-rounded and self-sufficient. Great for solo play. Great Defensively: Two Good Saves, Divine grace, plus defensive invocations. AC Suffers a bit if you don't buff it magically, BUT you have lay on hands, fast healing, and DR to lessen the pain. Hideous Blow gives you reliable melee damage, if not extraordinary hitting power, without using up your smites, while Eldritch Blast provides a decent ranged option, which most Paladins lack. With Minor Spellcasting and UMD, you cna have a bag of tricks, plus some invocations for crowd contorl. Plus, he's decent for noncombat play, with strong social skills, movement abilities, and sense (detect evil, darkvision, etc...) Also a blast to roleplay...
CaptainPicard 01-15-07, 06:56 PM	This one I'm about to post uses a houserule that the Serenity feat from Dragon Magazine applies to Paladin/Swordsages as well as Paladin/Monks, something I've seen every DM who has been asked implement. Unfortunately, I don't have the feat in front of me, so if there is a problem with it apart from that, my apologies. Cleric of Hextor 20//Paladin of Tyranny 2/Swordsage 13/Master of Nine 5 With the Serenity feat, everything your character does is based on wisdom, and that is a lot of things. The only two stats you really need to be good are Wisdom and Dexterity, with decent Strength and Constitution. You get: MASSIVE AC (Given how high you can pump Wisdom and Dexterity by level 20, not to mention how you can have a +5 Chain Shirt and all the usual protectives), all good saves that you add your wisdom to, full Cleric spells, +16 BAB for that last attack, and up to five 9th level manuevers from the Swordsage disciplines. You're a bit strapped for feats, but the extra 9th level manuevers and the ability to base almost everything off your Wisdom score, it more than makes up for it. With a bit of preparation, you are nearly invincible. Righteous Might covers your likely lower than average strength score, and many other Cleric spells can be used to increase constitution. Other ideas include taking the Shadow Blade feat. Given your ample dexterity and strength once you buff up, you are looking at a lot of damage here. Throw in Searing Blade, and you can hit someone with a dagger for a good 50 damage. With Time Stands Still, you can do that 7 more times this round. Of course, this also works for a normal LG Paladin, but why would you take Heironeus or whoever when you can have Hextor? ;)
strenoth 01-15-07, 08:45 PM	Let's start with this quote: Under Class Features on p. 73 it states: "A gestalt character follows a smiliar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characterists." The important part here is "Each Time he gains a level", this is a choice made at every level, there for is a choice that can change at every level Thus: 10 Psion//2 Wilder/3 Fighter/2 Duskblade/3 Paladin is perfectly valid, it's a 10 level character, and at no time are more than 2 classes being chosen for any one level 10 Psion/2 Wilder/2 Duskblade//3 Fighter/3 Paladin for a ECl of 15 instead of 10. Doesn't even vaguely make sense given the gestalt rules. There you have levels 1-3 psion//fighter level 4-6 psion//paladin levels 6-10 a non-gestalt psion suddenly levels 11&12 non-gestalt wilder Levels 13&14 non-gestalt duskblade
Dracomortis 01-15-07, 08:58 PM	Hmmm. For some reason, it's just struck me that a dretch 4/warlock 16//hexblade 20 would be extremely cool.
RazielK 01-15-07, 09:05 PM	Let's start with this quote: The important part here is "Each Time he gains a level", this is a choice made at every level, there for is a choice that can change at every level is perfectly valid, it's a 10 level character, and at no time are more than 2 classes being chosen for any one level Doesn't even vaguely make sense given the gestalt rules. There you have levels 1-3 psion//fighter level 4-6 psion//paladin levels 6-10 a non-gestalt psion suddenly levels 11&12 non-gestalt wilder Levels 13&14 non-gestalt duskblade Thank you very much for your attempt as helping me but Draco beat you to it.
Mitsukai_sama 01-15-07, 09:22 PM	Edited - Question already answered. /me needs to read the board again before posting. :x Hmmm. For some reason, it's just struck me that a dretch 4/warlock 16//hexblade 20 would be extremely cool. I'd love to see a well-designed Hexblade build, top-to-bottom, with feats and the whole nine yards. The class has always interested me, but I never took the time to get my head around it myself.
Mitsukai_sama 01-15-07, 09:50 PM	This one I'm about to post uses a houserule that the Serenity feat from Dragon Magazine applies to Paladin/Swordsages as well as Paladin/Monks, something I've seen every DM who has been asked implement. Unfortunately, I don't have the feat in front of me, so if there is a problem with it apart from that, my apologies. Cleric of Hextor 20//Paladin of Tyranny 2/Swordsage 13/Master of Nine 5 With the Serenity feat, everything your character does is based on wisdom, and that is a lot of things. The only two stats you really need to be good are Wisdom and Dexterity, with decent Strength and Constitution. You get: MASSIVE AC (Given how high you can pump Wisdom and Dexterity by level 20, not to mention how you can have a +5 Chain Shirt and all the usual protectives), all good saves that you add your wisdom to, full Cleric spells, +16 BAB for that last attack, and up to five 9th level manuevers from the Swordsage disciplines. You're a bit strapped for feats, but the extra 9th level manuevers and the ability to base almost everything off your Wisdom score, it more than makes up for it. With a bit of preparation, you are nearly invincible. Righteous Might covers your likely lower than average strength score, and many other Cleric spells can be used to increase constitution. Other ideas include taking the Shadow Blade feat. Given your ample dexterity and strength once you buff up, you are looking at a lot of damage here. Throw in Searing Blade, and you can hit someone with a dagger for a good 50 damage. With Time Stands Still, you can do that 7 more times this round. First, without this house rule (I for one would never allow anything that automatically grants insane Wis synergy in a gestalt campaign at the cost of a mere feat, but that's me), the build is a bit MAD, and as you said a bit feat-challenged, but not at all terrible despite the fact if you play your cards right. If your +5 Chain was Elven Chain (treated as light armor), then yes, it would work quite nicely. Bear in mind you only get that AC bonus while wearing light armor. ;] If all goes well, I'll be able to post something that absolutely refuses to die in a few weeks. :]
obrysii 01-15-07, 10:13 PM	If all goes well, I'll be able to post something that absolutely refuses to die in a few weeks. :] Speaking of not dying, here's a Dry Lich build (5 phylactories = not gonna die for a long time) The gold dragon I posted, at level 20, would have... (assuming 32 point-buy) Xiuhcoatl, Gold Dragon 20//Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10/Cleric 7 Large Undead (Fire) HD: 20d12+220 (avg. 340hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 60’, Fly 200’, Swim 60’ AC: 70 (-1 size, +25 natural, +7 dex, +6 armor, +18 shield, +5 deflection) BaB/Grapple: +15/+35 Attack: Bite +31 Full Attack: Bite +31, 2 Claws +26, 2 Wings +26, Tail Slap +26 Damage: Bite 7d6+16**, Claw 1d8+8, Wing 1d6+8, Tail Slap 1d8+24 Space/Reach: 10 ft./10ft. Special Attacks: Breath Weapon, Spells, Rebuke Undead, Desiccating Touch, The Wasting, Pillar of Salt, Aura of Despair, Constitution Drain Special Qualities: Greater Drought, Withered Toughness, Turn Resistance +6, Dry Lich Immunities, Undead Traits, Unholy Toughness, Aura of Despair, Fast Healing, Water Weakness, Five Phylacteries, Craft Salt Mummy, Craft Sand Golem, DR 15/magic and bludgeoning Saves: [Unknown...I can't figure out fractional saves >_<] Abilities*: Str 43, Dex 25, Con –, Int 23, Wis 43, Cha 33 Feats: Natural Heavyweight, Surrogate Spellcasting, Leadership, Landlord, Fly-by Attack, Divine Shield Skills: [Never figured this out, either; assume max Diplomacy, Concentration, Spellcraft, and UMD] Spell save DC mod: +26 (10 base + 16 wis) *assumes +6 item and +5 inherent bonus (for Str, Dex, Wis, and Cha) **Includes 5d6 desiccating damage may also contain 1d6 con drain attack as well. Total Full Attack Damage: 9d6+3d8+72 (average 116 damage) Equipment: Greater Cold Resistance Animated +5 Shield of Arrow Deflection; +5 Glamoured Padded Armor of Undead Controlling; a Wand of Positive Energy Resistance
scout989 01-15-07, 10:50 PM	I've got another one, and it's a doozy- though it does have its limitations. Crusader1/Swordsage3/Cleric of Wee Jas1/Ruby Knight Vindicator7/???//Barb4/Fighter4/Warblade4/Bear Warrior5/Warshaper3. It's kinda complicated, and really works well at high levels, not so well at low levels. Important feats: Power Attack,Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack. Important maneuvers: Pouncing Charge, Bounding Assault. It goes like this (at high levels (20th, for my example)): transform into a brown bear. Grow a horn for a gore attack, from warshaper. Charge the enemy, doing some (not too significant) damage. Next round, the combo pays out. Use the Ruby Knight Vindicator's ability to gain an extra swift action to initiate two boosts: Pouncing Charge and Bounding Assault. Because of Combat Brute, power attacking is paying out at 2 for 1 (natural weapons= 1h weaponsfor PA). Use Leap Attack to up that to 4 for 1. Use Shock Trooper to PA away your entire BAB (+19) and still hit. You have four natural attacks, each darn near gauranteed to hit and doing (assuming a starting Str of 16, with level bumps and a Tome taking it to 26) base damage dice+18 (for claws) or 9 (for bite and gore)+76 (PA)+4 (WS and Melee Weapon Mastery). Definitely around 400 damage. The thing is, there is still a lot of room to play around in this build, so I know this could be a truly great combo- against non-flying opponents, that is :( Any suggestions on how to fill the empty levels or improve the levels I have? Edit: Would it make sense to make one side of the progression a savage progression? Something like dragon, to maximise the number of natural attacks (and thus PA returns)? I do not have access to the necessary materials, so I don't know how well that would work.
Johnny_Angel 01-16-07, 03:37 AM	[QUOTE=Grizzled Gryphon;11177494]Johnny, what books do you have to work with? From what you have posted, I can see you have the PHB II. Anything else? QUOTE] Honestly, it might be easier to list the books I don't have. I have most of the non-campaign specific books, Eberron setting, FR Setting, Power of Faurun, Dragons of Faurun, The Dragon Compendium Volume I, and Mongoose Publishing's Ultimate NPC. A lot of people have asked what I wanted to do with my character ideas, so I'll try to give a brief explanation of the ideas I had. Paladin/Ranger: I think the gestault campaign is going to involve fighting a lot of evil outsiders. I was thinking that the Paladin's smite evil combined with having Outsiders(evil) as a favored enemy would be a good combo. I also thought that it would make a good background story because I was thinking that my character could be sort of like a Church-Trained-Commando being sent to infiltrate the darkness of evil. Fighter/Knight - I'm not sure what to say here. This just seems like it would be a pretty nice melee character. Paladin/Knight - Sae as Fighter/Knight, but less feats and more abilities. As for the character concept, it would focus around mounted combat, and I was going with the cliche "knight of the church" type character. Sorceror/Paladin - The Charisma need that both classes have seem to fit together well. I suppose my thinking on this one is that it would be something akin to a good-aligned Hexblade. The character would be born with unusual powers, and he came to realize that they were the gift of a particular god. I generally like to play melee characters, but I also like to have a few abilities to compliment my fighting abilities. I also tend to be more of a clever fighter as opposed to the "you hit me and then I hit you back" type deal. That's one of the reasons I like the fighter: there are so many feats that I can pick groups of feats which allow me to actually use some strategy and tactics in a battle.
Grizzled Gryphon 01-16-07, 05:16 PM	One nice Gestalt build I found is Warblade 17/ Anything 3//Scout 10/Dervish 10. With the two weapon fighting feats, and Skirmish, and one thousand cuts, AND the correct manuever (don't recall the name, but it gives you another full attack), you can make a sick amount of attacks with duel scimitars. Or, for those ebberon lovers, your double scimitar (or whatever it is called). However, the way the abilities read means that the DM has to approve something with rules on the double scimitar for the abilities of the classes to apply. As it really doesn't matter, though, as what is the difference between a double scimitar, and two scimitars? One thig is different, the double scimitar is easier to hold then two scimitars, as it takes only one hand. :P Sorry about the vagueness of this post, but I don't have my books handy, so I couldn't look things up. However, I researched all the abilities, and they DO work together. The one thousand cuts ability is a full attack action, and the manuever says you take a full attack action, followed immediately by another full attack action. So, use the one thousand cuts as one of those full attacks, and you get something like 26 attacks in one round. As you can only use one thousand cuts once per day, it is limited. But, very fun to use on the BBEG.
Doom_Chicken 01-16-07, 05:34 PM	monk adds wis to AC. so I would drop it from the duskblade wizard combo. I would love a druid/anything gestalt. Im a dog right now, bam im giving off bardic music. Bard Im a horse right now, Oh look my AC and move speed are ridicilus. Monk did that polar bear just smite me? palidin that monkey just cast grease. i swear it. wiz/sorcerer any would make for cool. It's not even possible to gesalt a druid and paladin. Lawful good and any neutral don't really work together. Even if you're using the paladin varients in UA, it doesn't work.
Mitsukai_sama 01-16-07, 08:22 PM	I generally like to play melee characters, but I also like to have a few abilities to compliment my fighting abilities. I also tend to be more of a clever fighter as opposed to the "you hit me and then I hit you back" type deal. That's one of the reasons I like the fighter: there are so many feats that I can pick groups of feats which allow me to actually use some strategy and tactics in a battle. Sounds to me like this should go in another thread. ;] But since we've gone OT so many times already, I personally don't mind just responding here for convenience's sake. In the spirit of this thread, I'll try to make it as "broken" as possible. In Gestalt, personally, unless there's overwhelming synergy I wouldn't recommend combining two tank-ish classes together. Why? Far too much overlap. Your Ref/Will saves are likely to suffer, your BAB will overlap, your Hit Dice will probably be redundant, etc. My advice would be to play a human for the build I'm going to recommend, as their highest level class is always treated as their Favored Class, letting you load the other side with synergy dips until you can start taking some PrCs. Provided you have Complete Divine, I would recommend taking Favored Soul as one half of your progression. You get Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with your deity's favored weapon for free as you progress (allowing you to take Fighter feats with these prereqs later, without actually leveling in fighter that much), three types of natural energy resistance, even a pair of wings for when your opponent takes to the air. At Level 20, you also gain a material-based damage reduction based on your alignment, very nice to have if you're on the front lines. Another great boon, is that all of your saves are good. And let's not forget your spells - a tank that can spontaneously cast Heal on himself and Harm on his enemies is one to be feared, indeed. Slight MAD with your casting based on Wis (save DC) and Cha (spell level cap), but you're setting up for some terribly powerful synergy later on if you can keep these stats high. Now, the other half of your progression. Two levels in Swordsage. Why? Wis to AC, while allowing you the ability to wear light armor. Pick up some Celestial Armor or Elven Chain (both treated as light), enhance it further, and with the ability to buff yourself, you're set there. Also bear in mind that your spells are Divine - that means no ASF% to worry about. You can also make use of some of the lower-level maneuvers as the situation merits, and the ability to drop back into a stance can be a boon, at the cost of a swift action (which you probably wouldn't be using all too often, anyway). Next, two levels in Paladin, and only two, consecutively (lest you be locked out of taking it again). Again, why just two? Two words any divine tank should be familiar with: Divine Grace. The ability to add your Charisma modifier to your already stellar saves means not much is going to hit you by way of special attacks that allow a saving throw, and fortunately for you, most do. Further, two levels in Fighter. As a more martial build, you'll be a bit feat challenged, and this will help to compensate. By the end of these six levels, your BAB will be at +5. Take these after you've gained Weapon Focus from your Favored Soul levels, and work on getting the prerequisites for... Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures). I personally would allow the (Phoenix) regional requirement to be waived in campaigns that do not feature these clans (substituting with another comparable region or organizational prerequisite), but your Human race means you would otherwise qualify by now (if you don't have at least 4 ranks in Knowledge [Religion] by now, you should). You'll notice that this is the second dip in which that half of your progression does not gain a bonus to Base Attack at every level, leaving your BAB at +18 at highest. Some would call this sub-optimal, but with the insane Wis synergy here, its worth it. No Thought allows you to add your Wis modifier to attacks and damage, making the 2-point hit to BAB well worth it to add your Wis modifier to AC, attack, and damage with the synergy so far (which should be well above +2 by now, more than offsetting it). Next, take a level in Pious Templar (Complete Divine). Even without your BAB going up in the level prior, you could still feasibly qualify for this class. Again, the first level ability is key: Mettle. For those unfamiliar, for any effect that requires a Fortitude or Will save for partial effect, on a successful save, you ignore it completely. Around this time, you should start thinking about getting your hands on a Ring of Evasion as soon as you can. With your saves being ridiculously high, augmented by your Divine Grace, any effect you can save against (read: near all of them), you can ignore. Now, we have another two levels before we come to the meat of this build. This brings us to two levels of Psychic Warrior. Again, no BAB increase the first level (we're at +17 now, for those not counting), but at this point you're hurting for more combat oriented feats after filling so many prerequisites for your synergies. Having a Power Point reserve also qualifies you for a few Psionic feats, should you choose to take advantage of them (and you can with those bonus feats). Depending on your style, you may want to pick up a few Tactical feats here, too. I would take advantage of the Combat Expertise prerequisite you filled for Shiba Protector earlier, and continue with that feat tree. Finally, in the campaign you describe, it will be rife with evil outsiders. As you break down their defenses with the likes Improved Trip and Improved Disarm, Knight of the Chalice (Complete Warrior, taken to Level 9) would be invaluable. Fiendslaying gives you a phenomenal +4 competence bonus to attack and +4d6 of untyped damage to attacks made against any evil outsider, not just demons. Censure Demons could also come in handy against slews of weaker abyssal (only) opponents, while Courage of Heaven grants fear and enchantment immunity to yourself and your allies. Finally, Consecrated Casting gives you an additional +2 to your spell Save DCs and caster level checks to pierce SR against evil outsiders - a casting bonus from a non-hybrid (banned) class is extremely useful. If you so choose, you could take this to level 10, or if you have the feats to spare, you could take a level in Vassal of Bahamut (Book of Exalted Deeds), for the ability to craft Platinum Armor - just as effective as plate, +4 Max Dex, and otherwise treated as a chain shirt. Note that chain shirt is light armor, so you get the benefit of full plate (which you can enhance as any other armor), whatever Dexterity bonus you have (shouldn't be above +4 if you're tanking like this - better to focus on Str), and the benefit of your Wisdom to AC. The synergy becomes nothing short of awe-inspiring by Level 20. So, to recap, at Level 20 you're looking at: Favored Soul 20//Swordsage 2/Paladin 2/Fighter 2/Shiba Protector 1/Pious Templar 1/Psychic Warrior 2/Knight of the Chalice 9/Vassal of Bahamut 1 Excellent saves augmented by your Charisma, 4 attacks per round modified by your Wisdom modifier, Wisdom to AC while wearing the equivalent of full plate, full casting progression unimpeded by armor, and a slew of anti-evil outsider abilities. For stats, I would focus first and foremost on Wisdom, as much Charisma as you can afford (remembering that your maximum spell level is capped by your Charisma score - 10), and then Strength (which you can always augment through your magic, anyway). If you're unfortunate enough to have to choose a dump stat, I'd say Dex. From the sounds of your playing style, you'll want a reasonable Int, and I'm loathe to use Con as a dump stat on any tank build. Good luck, and hope this helps!
Mitsukai_sama 01-16-07, 08:25 PM	One nice Gestalt build I found is Warblade 17/ Anything 3//Scout 10/Dervish 10. With the two weapon fighting feats, and Skirmish, and one thousand cuts, AND the correct manuever (don't recall the name, but it gives you another full attack) Time Stands Still, Diamond Mind 9 - at the cost of a full round action, allows two full-attack actions, but for the others reading its worth reiterating that you can only apply One Thousand Cuts to a single full attack action. ;] I've been toying with something similar, the thing is sick with the right boost maneuvers.
Krusk 01-17-07, 12:29 AM	It's not even possible to gesalt a druid and paladin. Lawful good and any neutral don't really work together. Even if you're using the paladin varients in UA, it doesn't work. Your right, i always forget we houserules druids of any alignment. Because it makes no sense that they can't be.
Alten_Freehands 01-17-07, 12:51 AM	Monk/Paladin pops into my brain as broken. THe only way you fail your'e save is to roll a 1. Full BAB, d10 hp fast movement evasion limited spells LoH two versions mind you. Quivering Palm that you can actually hit with a mount that will help you fly because that's all you need it for. Dump int for both classes I'm sure there are better but this one calls out to me
TheDarkLord 01-17-07, 01:10 AM	Monk/Paladin pops into my brain as broken. THe only way you fail your'e save is to roll a 1. Full BAB, d10 hp fast movement evasion limited spells LoH two versions mind you. Quivering Palm that you can actually hit with a mount that will help you fly because that's all you need it for. Dump int for both classes I'm sure there are better but this one calls out to me I'm not singling you out on purpose so please take no offence, I'm just using this as an example. I don't think any build with both sides melee focuses could be termed "broken'. a single caster 90% of the time I could still put a beatdown to remember on such a gestalt. While I don't find many things broken about the game (I for one know how to DM), a Warblade//Psion, Warblade//Wizard, Rogue//Wizard, Artificer//Wizard (UMD is awesome in the last two builds) and Paladin//Cleric all seem more powerful than Melee/melee builds. While some are lacking in HP's, BAB, and saves, what they are not lacking is pure raw power. For a gestalt caster it might look nice to have that +20 BAB or three good saves, but seriously, at higher levels, smart casters do everything from range. They rarely get hit, they use spells that while offer a save with a creature, used on the environment around said creature causes them to be that much more deadly. Spamming Meat shields via summons is another good tactic so you can do more casting while those creatures run interference. My point is that to get a "broken" (heh, nothing's broken, you just have to know what your doing) gestalt build, you need to have at least one full caster progression on one side to take advantage of SoD spells and things like Time stop.
Doom_Chicken 01-17-07, 01:27 AM	Your right, i always forget we houserules druids of any alignment. Because it makes no sense that they can't be. The reason druids have to be any neutral is because of their connection with nature.
Mitsukai_sama 01-17-07, 02:33 PM	I'm not singling you out on purpose so please take no offence, I'm just using this as an example. I don't think any build with both sides melee focuses could be termed "broken'. a single caster 90% of the time I could still put a beatdown to remember on such a gestalt. While I don't find many things broken about the game (I for one know how to DM), a Warblade//Psion, Warblade//Wizard, Rogue//Wizard, Artificer//Wizard (UMD is awesome in the last two builds) and Paladin//Cleric all seem more powerful than Melee/melee builds. I agree completely here. I can't think of any Gestalt builds that are so "broken," it would make me say as a DM, "lawls that needs nerf" (though in my experience, I should also say that feats such as Arcane Strike and similar abilities required some tweaking to work in Gestalt). A good DM should be able to throw that player up against a comparable challenge, by not only the use of decent builds, but circumstance, terrain, encounter objectives other than "kill the BBEG," and so on. And for players and DMs alike - even with a good build, you still need to know how to play it. A smart player could turn an otherwise sub-optimal class gestalt into one that shines in her campaign with the right choices. On melee/melee builds, I can think of only one in particular (the same I alluded to earlier) that a caster of comparable level would be hard-pressed to take down (maneuvers and better melee character options certainly start to level the playing field between tanks and casters). Beyond that, a caster-tank (Wizard//Duskblade with its ability to cast touch spells in conjunction with a full attack, or Favored Soul//Knight for its CC/taunt and divine spell options, for instance) would likely tear you apart, as they have more options they can hit more frequently with than they otherwise would in a normal campaign, better saves more often than not, the toughness of a tank, and the vesatility of a caster. As a side-note, I haven't played too much with UMD builds yet. They sound interesting, and given the Artificer, reasonably powerful if the synergy is there.
Alten_Freehands 01-17-07, 03:03 PM	I'm not singling you out on purpose so please take no offence, I'm just using this as an example. I don't think any build with both sides melee focuses could be termed "broken'. a single caster 90% of the time I could still put a beatdown to remember on such a gestalt. While I don't find many things broken about the game (I for one know how to DM), a Warblade//Psion, Warblade//Wizard, Rogue//Wizard, Artificer//Wizard (UMD is awesome in the last two builds) and Paladin//Cleric all seem more powerful than Melee/melee builds. While some are lacking in HP's, BAB, and saves, what they are not lacking is pure raw power. For a gestalt caster it might look nice to have that +20 BAB or three good saves, but seriously, at higher levels, smart casters do everything from range. They rarely get hit, they use spells that while offer a save with a creature, used on the environment around said creature causes them to be that much more deadly. Spamming Meat shields via summons is another good tactic so you can do more casting while those creatures run interference. My point is that to get a "broken" (heh, nothing's broken, you just have to know what your doing) gestalt build, you need to have at least one full caster progression on one side to take advantage of SoD spells and things like Time stop. This build is melee orientated I know. Although you don't have full spell progression you have some and you can heal, some really good party buffs and are an all around useful cha both in and out of combat. Yes I know the all powerful cleric/druid can't be beaten. The nigh infinite spells of the wiz/soc, can't be matched. The sheer destructive force known as Wizard/Cleric, all broken. I can tell you so is the Monkadin. You may not recognize or acknowlege it but it is. Maybe not on the same scope of the cleric/druid.
Krusk 01-17-07, 04:05 PM	The reason druids have to be any neutral is because of their connection with nature. Man, and here i was thinking nature could be good or evil. You know like in all the disney movies where they show the princess with all the animals, or the horrible force of nature in hurricans and tornados.
Mitsukai_sama 01-17-07, 07:00 PM	Man, and here i was thinking nature could be good or evil. You know like in all the disney movies where they show the princess with all the animals, or the horrible force of nature in hurricans and tornados. Druids, by their nature, revere some aspect of nature's balance and dispassion, hence the "Any Neutral" alignment restriction. So, they can be evil with their hurricans and other similarly fearsome typos of the names of natural disasters, while being dispassionate with regard to matters of law and chaos, thus being Neutral Evil. They cannot, however, be any of the extreme alignments (LG, LE, CG, CE), as their hearts no longer possess any sort of neutrality with which they can relate to nature. In fact, these are the alignments more often caught up in the "rest" of the world (if I may use the worst word possible to describe it), such as matters of morals and ethics, where nature has little place for such absolute concepts. By contrast, a Paladin lives and dies by matters of morals and ethics: it is what her code is entirely based on, aspiring to the highest order of each. Such a soul would simply be too wrought with conflict to stay true to the Paladin's code were they to attempt to walk the path of the Druid, being forced to abandon their (formerly) unwavering aspirations to the ideals of law and good. ...And this is why you can't Gestalt, or otherwise multiclass, a Paladin//Druid. One involves a strict adherence to both morality and ethics, the other demands a sort of dispassion in at least some regard. You simply can't have both. The only exception I'm aware of is if you were first a Druid, then became a Paladin of Slaughter/Tyranny after becoming an ex-Druid, then taking your first level in Blighter (at which point you're no longer a Druid anyway, now are you?). This build is melee orientated I know. Although you don't have full spell progression you have some and you can heal, some really good party buffs and are an all around useful cha both in and out of combat. Yes I know the all powerful cleric/druid can't be beaten. The nigh infinite spells of the wiz/soc, can't be matched. The sheer destructive force known as Wizard/Cleric, all broken. I can tell you so is the Monkadin. You may not recognize or acknowlege it but it is. Maybe not on the same scope of the cleric/druid. I don't know about those caster//caster builds, either... more than a bit of an overlap in saves, BAB, hit dice, and severe MAD issues in a few cases. That's really what it comes down to, trying to find things that do what you want, with as little overlap as possible. Have a look at the Favored Soul//melee build I posted above, for instance. You get the same great benefits of the Monk's all good saves combined with Divine Grace as you would with the Monkadin, synergy with both of the Favored Soul's casting stats, maximum attacks per round, with any BAB dips more than offset by your ability to add your Wis to attacks and damge (not to mention AC while wearing that Platinum Armor), and the buffs, firepower, and healing that all come with having a full divine spellcasting progression. Not to mention wings, DR 10/silver, resistance 10 to three energy types, and the ability to ignore all half/partial effects on a successful save as long as you have a Ring of Evasion, thanks to Mettle covering the rest. Monkadin is good, but nowhere near broken, IMO. ;]
Krusk 01-17-07, 11:56 PM	Druids, by their nature, revere some aspect of nature's balance and dispassion, hence the "Any Neutral" alignment restriction. So, they can be evil with their hurricans and other similarly fearsome typos of the names of natural disasters, while being dispassionate with regard to matters of law and chaos, thus being Neutral Evil. They cannot, however, be any of the extreme alignments (LG, LE, CG, CE), as their hearts no longer possess any sort of neutrality with which they can relate to nature. In fact, these are the alignments more often caught up in the "rest" of the world (if I may use the worst word possible to describe it), such as matters of morals and ethics, where nature has little place for such absolute concepts. i was saying why i disagreed with their having the bolded part. Stating that they have the bolded part is not an effective arguement. "I have yellow stop signs. " person 1 "Yes, but stop signs are red. "person 2 "oh your right, i made my own stopsign color because the color yellow catches more peoples eye i forget people dont use my color" person 1 "AHA but they are red." person 3
Ogreman 01-18-07, 01:03 AM	What do druid alignments have to do with gestalt combos? Regardless, I have an idea. It involves a series of carefully calculated battle maneuvers. Step one: we cover ourselves in our own feces... Step two: we go rogue 20 // hexblade 20. IIRC, that gives you Mettle and Evasion, with three good saves. Not incredible, but decent.
Mitsukai_sama 01-18-07, 02:20 AM	What do druid alignments have to do with gestalt combos? Regardless, I have an idea. It involves a series of carefully calculated battle maneuvers. Step one: we cover ourselves in our own feces... Step two: we go rogue 20 // hexblade 20. IIRC, that gives you Mettle and Evasion, with three good saves. Not incredible, but decent. Only that Paladin//Druid isn't a valid combination (a build mentioned earlier) due to alignment restrictions. I was merely trying to clarify why the rules are as they are, to the best of my understanding, and only succeeded in eating up thread space. - shrug - But, onto the build... I for one would skip the first step entirely, as this takes at least a round. :P All seriousness aside, I never thought of using that combination before, and it strikes me as very interesting. Saves, attack, hit dice, Mettle+Evasion... I like it already. A decent build on its own, but with the right PrCs, it may have the potential to be a real force to be reckoned with. Anyone have any ideas on how to build off this base? :] I was going to say Slayer of Domiel on the Rogue half for Divine Grace (Cha synergy with Hexblade) and death attack, if not for the alignment restrictions on the two. i was saying why i disagreed with their having the bolded part. Stating that they have the bolded part is not an effective arguement. - truncated to save space - "Person 3" should say "But if it isn't the same style as a standard stop sign, aren't you risking being jailed, when your only defense in court is that 'I personally think yellow catches the eye more effectively?'". For the sake of not wasting more space on the thread, suffice it to say that its your own house rules. Just be aware that RAW, the build is illegal, and the justification is given in the alignment entry, apart from the bolded section above.
Krusk 01-18-07, 12:56 PM	i am quite aware, and my second post basically said "oh your right, i forgot. Stupid RAW" Fighter//wizard generally means all the metamagic feats you can handle. d10 hit die, and 2 good saves. I always wanted to do skill bard//wizard-divination For amazing i know everything powers.
Mitsukai_sama 01-18-07, 03:21 PM	i am quite aware, and my second post basically said "oh your right, i forgot. Stupid RAW" Fighter//wizard generally means all the metamagic feats you can handle. d10 hit die, and 2 good saves. I always wanted to do skill bard//wizard-divination For amazing i know everything powers. Mia culpa - didn't see such a post. :] Bard//Diviner, never really thought of it, but access to so much in the way of knowledge can be a very powerful thing. The build does suffer from MAD, though, relying on Wiz and Cha. Maybe Seer [Psion]//Diviner [Wizard] instead? Sure, you won't get Bardic Knowledge, but you'll have the best divination spells and the best clairvoyant powers, all based off of Int. If you're going Fighter//Wizard for a meta-tank... why not go Duskblade 13/Fighter [Armored Mage Variant] 7//Abjurer 10/Incantatrix 10 (protip: do not prohibit yourself from Evocation)? Quick Cast 2/day means you're not spending your precious metamagic levels on Quicken nearly as often, and the reduced metamagic costs from Icx are a huge boon in any metamagic build. Couple that with Arcane Thesis on your favorite method of attack (Cold Orb is a personal favorite, with Energy Substitution: Sonic), and you can dish out some serious damage, all while retaining the ability to make your full attack. Spontaneous Metamagic can also put some serious hurt on the BBEG, especially after the spell is pumped up with metamagic to begin with. And let's not forget, if you're in melee, you can channel any touch spell you know through your weapon, targeting any you strike with it during that round. Bear in mind that targeting with the same effect cannot be redundant, so the same spell cannot take effect four times on the same creature, even if you hit with four attacks. Better to use this when flanked, or if you have some serious Power Attack to burn after a Quickened True Strike. Armored Mage (Complete Mage) still means that, while sacrificing proficiency with medium and heavy armor, you don't incur ASF% while casting in light armor, for all spells up to a level of your Fighter level +1 (8, in this case). Note that Duskblade grants something similar, but it applies only to Duskblade spells, so you'll obviously apply this benefit to your Wizard levels. Take note of the fact that a Fireball is always a Fireball - that is, no matter how many metamagic feats you pump it up with, its always going to be a 3rd Level spell, meaning you don't suffer ASF% even if you increase the spell slot it consumes well beyond 9th, giving you plenty of maneuverability with your metamagic feats. Take Somatic Weaponry, and you can even use a two-handed weapon while you cast. Battle Caster will extend your negation of ASF% to medium armor (proficiency with which you still retain from Duskblade). The Energy Gestalt tactical feat can quite powerful here as well, the reason why I favor Cold Orb with the ability to use Energy Substitution/Admixture [Sonic], and similar combinations as per the feat.
Krusk 01-18-07, 09:54 PM	I'm a big fan of gestalt energy. Alas i generally do not use psionics, so the best i could come up with was diviner//bard. Whatever wizard prestiges you want. its not really as mad as you would think. You pump Int all the way, and then throw second best into Cha, go with 16 and your done. The other scores really don't matter. diving wizard3/master specialist10/something7/Bard20. bonus feats into bardic knowledge boosting ones. You max the knowledge skills, all of them. Then for anything else you throw out a bardic knowledge. Wizard feats into craft feats. Heck, you don't even have to attend most battles. Ok guys you are going to fight this and this. The first has this weakness, i made you this rod to counter that. Second one has this ability, i made these goggles to counter that. Have fun, I'm going to the bar.
Khandar 01-19-07, 12:51 AM	Soulknife//Lurk seems like a good one (I know it's already been mentioned) I thought about Lurk//Duskblade, til I realized that you can't Channel a spell AND use an Augment in the same round, due to them both requiring Swift actions. But if it could work the potential damage would be massive. Another cool idea would be a Duskblade//Soulknife. The possibilities sound very delicious. Just imagine channeling Touch of Idiocy on some dumb warrior-type, and then using Knife to the Soul to drop their mental scores to nothing, incapacitating them. Or Psychic Strike + Channeled damage spell. All good saves, D10 hd, good skill points. Unfortunately, I suck at building characters or I would make one. Anybody got any good ideas for a build?
BloodSpill 01-19-07, 12:25 PM	As stated: Warblade//Psion. However, if you haven't quite learnt all of ToB, then you can substitute Barbarian//Psion. While Ranger//Psion gives all good saves, I am wondering whether a half-strength animal companion really compares to +10ft move speed and damage reduction. === How about we have a slight off-topic for "powerful builds that avoid PHB classes". Here's a few: Dread Necromancer//Hexblade (20 BAB, Cha synergy, -one save) in 2 flavours: [Dread Necromancer 20//Hexblade 2/Ranger 4/Bone Knight 10/Ranger 4] (oops) [Hexblade 20//Dread Necromancer 10/Sand Shaper 10] Totemist//Knight (20 BAB, all good saves, incarnum) Duskblade//Beguiler ?? (fighter & rogue & wizard w/evoc, ench and illusion. Get a cleric cohort and you're done!) Swashbuckler 20//Egoist 20 (insightful strike works with rapiers AND natural weapons) Shaper 6/Thrallherd 10/Shaper 4//Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1/Beguiler 14 (everybody loves me!) === And a separate idea: Changeling Swashbuckler 3/Ranger 3/Warshaper 4/Chameleon 10//Ardent 20 (not spectacular, just adding psionics to an already fun build.) or //Warblade 20 (because it's awesome for melee//melee) Thank you! *takes a bow*
larry_the_titan 01-19-07, 06:39 PM	What do druid alignments have to do with gestalt combos? Regardless, I have an idea. It involves a series of carefully calculated battle maneuvers. Step one: we cover ourselves in our own feces... Step two: we go rogue 20 // hexblade 20. IIRC, that gives you Mettle and Evasion, with three good saves. Not incredible, but decent. Sorry but you might not be thinking of your classes clearly. Rogues only have good reflex saves and hexblades only have good will saves. maybe ranger/hexblade is more along the lines of what you where trying to do. You may not get evasion until 9th but you still get mettle early, arcane resistence will help make most save until then.
Deathstrike5000 01-19-07, 11:10 PM	I personally found that a Crusader/Incarnate or Barbarian/Totemist was always fun
adimeadozen 01-20-07, 11:00 AM	Sorry but you might not be thinking of your classes clearly. Rogues only have good reflex saves and hexblades only have good will saves. maybe ranger/hexblade is more along the lines of what you where trying to do. You may not get evasion until 9th but you still get mettle early, arcane resistence will help make most save until then. I'd say he was thinking of the Hexblade fix that Mark? from wizards unofficially posted on these boards a while back, gave them good fort among other things. Or he's mistaken.
Krusk 01-20-07, 03:49 PM	Ninja20//palidin10/gray gaurd10 Oh man that would be one of the coolest characters ever to play. You just show up in evil peoples house and then start smiting. Pretty MAD though. and probably not amazingly powerful. Just cool as anything
Xavon 01-20-07, 04:13 PM	Rogue/Ranger - automatic TWF, full BAB, and animal companion to flank makes for a lot of consistant Sneak Attack damage.
MagicMouth 01-20-07, 05:40 PM	Bard//Crusader Full BAB, d10 HD, 6+ skill points/level, Bardic Music, Spells, Maneuvers. OK, hardly broken, but it can be a really useful part of most groups; Standing on the front lines bringing the smackdown on the enemies. Aiding his comrades with maneuvers (White Raven methinks) or Bardic Music. Casting various handy spells. Being the face of the party in social situations. A Gnome could be a good choice; +2 Con for being able to take more damage and use Steely Resolve, a bonus to Illusion spells, and the size modifier to AC and Hide (for the times when you really don´t want to face the big nasty). The Strength penalty is a drawback, but I think it´s worth it.
larry_the_titan 01-21-07, 12:57 PM	I'd say he was thinking of the Hexblade fix that Mark? from wizards unofficially posted on these boards a while back, gave them good fort among other things. Or he's mistaken. I go by the books and the Errata otherwise I would be treated as wrong. I recommend that all board goers do the same it keeps people from having to be such pains. But if someone references something from the boards could they please supply a link. I am not on here all the time and dont have the time to search the top 5 pages of every area just to find some ones fix build. Anyway a Hexblade is built the same way as a Paladin. And hexblades are more effective and easier to play with all of there abilities and less alignment restriction in both the class and the use of there abilities. Even if you use the Paladin variants to get them for another alignment a Neutral Hexblade vs any Paladin Alingnment the Hexblade would still stand a better chance. Any way back to the thread at hand so far there has been no real broken combos but more like favorite combos. Hey I have seen powerful class combos with out Gestalt's that are more broken then most of the post here so far. Lets see what happens when I try; Swordsage20//Hexblade10/Swashbuckler5/Master of the Nine5 I have gotten this build and made it effective in 20 levels by doing this; Swordsage9/Hexblade3/Swashbuckler3/Master of the Nine5 Race human must have feats Shadow Blade most of the rest of the feats are needed to enter Mot9 With these builds this character gets his str, dex, int, and wis mods on damage most of the attacks they make. A version of this build was surpose to be my backup character for my current DM's high power campaign (or as I think of it as ultra power campaign) but since my last character has let to die and the campaign is at its end, I wont be useing him any time soon, I hope.
Ogreman 01-21-07, 01:03 PM	Yeah, my bad on the hexblade thing. Ranger//Hexblade would be interesting... So many cruddy little combat-trick spells...
Mandarbgrim 01-21-07, 03:15 PM	It doesn't have a lot of Synergy, but I always thought a Ranger/Warlock would be cool if I ever get to play gestault <I'm the only DM I know that is interested in it>. HD 8, Full BAB, All Good Saves, 6 Skill Points, A huger number of class skills, Partial Spellcasting to suppliment invocations & a huge list of class features. Other combos that I like... Warblade/Rogue Knight/Marshall Dragon Shaman/Paladin Dread Necromancer/Hexblade: Using PHB2 Dark Companion
FeceMan 01-23-07, 01:40 PM	Paladin/divine mind would be handy for a group, though the divine mind still sucks. Maybe cleric/paladin as a PrC//divine mind...either way, you get CHA to saves twice. Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 10/Fighter 1//Wizard 5/Spellsword 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Argent Savant 1/Arcane Trickster 6 What. That's right, I tried to make the duelist useful. ...At least nobody will hit this character...
Khandar 01-24-07, 01:37 AM	I personally would enjoy playing Gestalt for roleplaying more than optimization. A Hexblade//Ranger just begs to be played as some sort of tortured avenger type, or perhaps some sort of bounty hunter. Maybe even use the Urban Ranger variant. Another flavorful Gestalt idea I had was Barbarian//Soulknife. Just think about it, a guy who gets so angry that his rage manifests itself into a blade of pure mental energy. How cool is that? Yes, I realize that it would not work in the rules because you can't use things that require concentration while raging, but I'm sure most DM's would allow it if you provided enough of an awesome backstory. d12 hd, full BAB, 50' movement, and all good saves don't hurt either.
Mindolin 01-24-07, 12:23 PM	Surprised no one has mentioned it yet: Xill Monk 20/Wiz 11 Reason for this is that you can use Arcane spells, and really only need a 13 or so in Int, plus a Headband of Int. Use your feats to get the multiweapon fighting feat chain. At 20th level, you can get 5 attacks with your main hand and three attacks with your off hands (you've got three). Now comes the fun part. Cast Girralon's Blessing, and you gain an additional one or two pairs of arms (depends on Spell Compendium or Savage Species version). The total number of attacks you now have is 20-26. And the damage you can deal is 4d8 per hit, with Improved Natural Attack. Go Greater Invisibility, and you are even more likely to hit.
MagicMouth 01-24-07, 12:49 PM	I don´t know if these are particularily powerful or versatile, but they would be interesting, at least (in my opinion, the fun thing about Gestalt is the character concepts you´re able to create rather than the extra power). Artificer//Dread Necromancer Beguiler//Rogue Cleric//Marshall Dragon Shaman//Dread Necromancer Dragon Shaman//Marshall (oh, the auras...) Swordsage//Fighter (UA Sneak Attack variant :D)
psionicbattousai 01-24-07, 02:25 PM	I didn't feel like reading 6 pages as I'm supposed to be writing a paper that was due 2 weeks ago, but I think a Druid/Psion (shaper) would be awesome. Get wild shape, and natural spell, astral construct and boost constuct, and ignore errata from a certain stupid psionics book *coughcompletecough*, and you can turn into something powerful, and, along with your animal companion, summon nature's ally spells, and some astral constructs, go ape-**** on your enemies. (or wolf, or bear, or any other fun animal, really) :invasion:
Dragoloth 01-24-07, 04:33 PM	Incarnate 20 // warblade 20. The soulmelds can stack with magic items with a feat. Incarnate blade means your never unarmed. Ranger 20 // barbarian 10 / frenzied berserker 10. Favored PA, leap attack, and supreme PA for a -1/+12 power attack with a two-handed weapon. Warblade 20// swordsage 20 = awesome.
sigma999 01-25-07, 09:29 PM	I prefer a plain ol' DBZ style Fighter/Psion or Monk/Psion
Nelagend 01-25-07, 09:36 PM	Druid 20 Fighter 1/Monk 19 BAB 20 plus the kung fu earth elemental crap Fort +22, Ref +14, Will +22 - gotta love offset good saves Sorcerer 12/IOSV 7/Sorc 1 Paladin 7/Monk 9/Fighter 2/Brb2 BAB 20 Fort +19, Ref +11, Will +19 - but with +Cha! If you start with a 15, +5 for level, +6 for item, this means +27/19/27. :eek: In all honesty, I would NOT allow offset tricks like this. I would give builds the best BAB/Fort/Ref/Will of each TOTAL PROGRESSION. That makes BAB 15/17, F/R/W 13/11/12 and 15/6/15 + Cha.
Mitsukai_sama 01-25-07, 10:15 PM	Paladin/divine mind would be handy for a group, though the divine mind still sucks. Maybe cleric/paladin as a PrC//divine mind...either way, you get CHA to saves twice. Rogue 3/Paladin 2/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 10/Fighter 1//Wizard 5/Spellsword 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Argent Savant 1/Arcane Trickster 6 That's right, I tried to make the duelist useful. A few things. 1) No, you don't get Cha to saves twice. Redundant abilities with the same name (both are called Divine Grace) do not stack, they overlap; this is why a Monk's AC bonus doesn't stack with similarly named abilities from other classes (Swordsage, etc.). 2) Your build uses a number of hybrid (read: banned) prestige classes. Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are both caster/tank hybrids, and I believe Arcane Trickster is explicitly banned in UA, as being the essence of the sneak/caster hybrid. In short, its not a legal Gestalt build. 3) See the Duelist build I posted before, on how it can be useful. ;] In all honesty, I would NOT allow offset tricks like this. I would give builds the best BAB/Fort/Ref/Will of each TOTAL PROGRESSION. Agreed; even as a power gamer, I can't stand the munchkinry of offset tweaking. The same ruling you suggested applies in the Gestalt campagins I DM (easy way to convince a player this is the way to go: you only have one PC you can offset tweak with... but if an NPC dies, I can just roll a new one and tweak it even more; not very fair to you now, is it?).
TheDarkLord 01-25-07, 11:39 PM	2) Your build uses a number of hybrid (read: banned) prestige classes. Spellsword and Abjurant Champion are both caster/tank hybrids, and I believe Arcane Trickster is explicitly banned in UA, as being the essence of the sneak/caster hybrid. In short, its not a legal Gestalt build. The last time I checked, No class was banned by UA, there were suggestions on what not to use, but nothing was outright banned, if they are, then point me to the page or errata. Note that it's not a bad Idea to use the suggestion, but to say it was banned is completely different.
Mitsukai_sama 01-25-07, 11:56 PM	The last time I checked, No class was banned by UA, there were suggestions on what not to use, but nothing was outright banned, if they are, then point me to the page or errata. Note that it's not a bad Idea to use the suggestion, but to say it was banned is completely different. On a technicality, yes, I stand corrected: the wording is "should be prohibited." The general consensus when posting a build here (at least, as I've understood it from lurking), however, is that nearly all DMs wouldn't even consider allowing such a build without some sort of severe drawback, for obvious game balance reasons (usually citing UA p73). So to the vast majority of us, it won't be very helpful regardless. ;]
TheDarkLord 01-26-07, 12:21 AM	But being Technically correct is the best kind of Correct, correct (Especially around here)? :D And yes I agree, the wording should be "These kinds of classes are Prohibited...".
Mitsukai_sama 01-26-07, 03:32 AM	But being Technically correct is the best kind of Correct, correct (Especially around here)? :D Certainly better than being out-right wrong. :] And thank you for pointing that out, it does merit clarification. I didn't see this before, but it does also make mention that a DM is certainly within their rights to allow a powerful PrC to be taken, as long as it occupies both halves of the Gestalt at that level (such that for an Arcane Trickster, you're pretty much taking Rogue//Wizard anyway). I'll have to examine how this works with a few builds (new thread, perhaps?).
elondir 01-26-07, 10:08 AM	Don't know how good it is, but since UA only suggests you prohibit it, abuse fochlucan lyrist and mystic theurge for loads of spells: 1-3 wizard/cleric (+3 BAB) 4 bard/druid (+0 BAB) 5 mystic theurge/fighter (armored mage sub level) (+1 BAB) 6 mystic theurge/rogue (+0 BAB) 7 mystic theurge/monk (+0 BAB) 8-10 mystic theurge/duskblade (+3 BAB) 11-15 fochlucan lyrist/artificer (+5 BAB) 16-20 fochlucan lyrist/monk (+5 BAB) Final: wizard 3/cleric 3/bard 1/druid1/mystic theurge 6/fighter 1/rogue 1/monk 6/duskblade 3/fochlucan lyrist 10/artificer 5. total bab: +17 cleric caster level: 19 wizard caster level: 19 artificer caster level: 5 bard caster level: 1 druid caster level: 1 hit dice: 13d8+1d10+6d6 class abilities: bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire courage +1, turn or rebuke undead (level 3), animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy, ignore spell failure in light armor, 1 fighter bonus feat, 3 monk bonus feats, flurry of blows, unarmed strike, evasion, still mind, ki strike (magic), slow fall 30 ft., purity of body, movement +20 ft., sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, summon familiar, scribe scroll, brew potion, item creation, craft reserve, infusions, artificer knowledge, craft wondrous item, craft magic arms and armor, craft homunculous, and retain essence. Suggested feats: practiced caster (wizard), practiced caster (cleric), practiced caster (bard), practiced caster (druid), practiced caster (artificer), armor proficiency (heavy), battle caster (medium), battle caster (heavy), any 5 monk feats other: make a +3 keen ghost touch wounding speed scythe, a thought bottle, and track down the wizard spell genesis to exploit its lack of restrictions, and make some armor that grants +5 enhancement/+5 deflection/+5 morale/+5 sacred/+5 luck/+5 insight/+3 natural for a total armor bonus of +33. Should cost 193,000 gp if I calculated right. Also stick your dedicated wright homunculous inside a portable hole with your craft tools. When you go epic, grab epic spellcasting and make an item that gives several different +30 bonuses to spellcraft checks. Don't know how this is compared to a highly optimized one, but sounds pretty good to me.
elondir 01-26-07, 11:08 AM	I just read another post I hadn't looked into - if you stagger the levels just right, you can take fighter 1/cleric 1 at first level, then wizard/cleric the rest of the way. +20 BAB, wizard 19, cleric 20. You don't get all those handy things like evasion or retain essence, but wow at the spells and melee. Wait, nevermind. BAB doesn't stack like that. The correct final BAB is +15.
ravenshrike 01-26-07, 12:49 PM	Here is a break-down of the Warhulk Werebear I posted above. Stat Rolled Racial Level Item Class Total Str 15 +18 +3 +13 +18 67 (+28) Dex 14 +2 +1 +4 +0 21 (+5) Con 14 +8 +0 +6 +4 32 (+11) Int 11 -2 +0 +0 +0 9 (-1) Wis 15 +2 +1 +6 +0 24 (+7) Cha 13 +0 +0 +0 +0 13 (+1) Hit Points: 13d8+7d12+220 (Avg. 318hp) Armor Class: 46 (+7 natural +5 dexterity +7 wisdom +4 monk +8 armor +5 deflection, -2 size) Speed: Wood Elf Form 90’, Hybrid Form 90’, Bear Form 100’ Space/Reach: Wood Elf Form: 5’/15’; Huge Hybrid Form: 15’/25’; Huge Bear Form (Grappling form): 15’/20’ BaB/Grapple: +15/+51 Full Attack Action: Unarmed Strike +43/+43/+43/+38/+34, Bite +32, Claw +32 Damage: Unarmed Strike 14d8+28, Bite 6d6+14, Claw 4d6+14 Base Saves: Fort +23, Reflex +18, Will +21 Saves with Items: Fort +28, Reflex +23, Will +26 Carrying Capacity (Huge Bear Form): Light Load: Up to 132,864 pounds Medium Load: 132,865 – 266,112 pounds Heavy Load: 266,112 – 399,360 pounds Maximum Lift: 798,720 pounds Maximum Drag: 1,996,800 pounds With 3 epic levels, bumping Warhulk up to level 10, you gain Str +6 as well as the ability to strike everyone within your reach (25') with full attack actions. With Improved Multigrab, you can grapple enemies without yourself being considered grapple, and as you have a +51 to grapple, you can easily grapple with Colossal enemies and win. The average damage for one full attack is: 455 damage for unarmed strikes, and 63 total from the Bite and the Claw attack. Making the total 518 damage per round. Assuming no critical hits. Um, just out of curiousity, why did you take stunning fist instead of Imp. Grapple? Now, as to fun combos, Warblade20//Expert 20 is interesting. Basically all good saves and class skills, 6+int mod in points, buncha feats, and evasion+imp. evasion+uncanny dodge makes for some frontline fun. Not to mention an extra 4 feats after that. Warlock//Wizard is fun. Obviously you're not going to be using anything like charm person, but things like fell flight, Darkness cast on a coin sewed into your collar+devil's sight, Entropic warding(heh, ranged attacks will have 40% miss chance from the darkness and the warding), Walk Unseen etc.. etc...
Sphyre 01-26-07, 01:13 PM	But being Technically correct is the best kind of Correct, correct (Especially around here)? :D Anyone else think of Futurama when they read that? Dirty boy! Dirty dirty boy!
Sphyre 01-30-07, 02:12 PM	My favorite is warforged fighter 20/artificer 15 /juggernaut 5. Full BAB, immunities galore, and the ability to buff and heal yourself. Have also played Half-ogre barbarian 20/fighter 9/ frenzied berzerker 10. Even better than that imho: Crusader/Artificer. Getting Extraordinary Artisan (and Legendary to a lesser extent) allows you to have 2.67 times the treasure amount of someone normally of your level. Full BAB, d10 hitdie, all weapon and armor proficiencies (except exotic weapons) Buff your melee capability with your craft magical arms and armor. In combat heals with strikes (along with being able to attack in the same round!) while you have out of combat heals with wands of lesser vigor. With craft construct, you can create an army to supplement you. With scroll creation you have access to every spell in the game. If you want persistent buffs, you can use the wand/persistent combo to get buffs. IMHO this is one of the strongest 1 man armies for solo campaigns - being able to do everything, even find and disable traps. Drawback? MAD - Good physical scores to melee, good int for getting additional skill points and infusions. Wisdom can be a dump stat while you boost cha for your will saves (2nd level crusader) and use magic device score. One can cut out dex as a higher physical score because of proficiency with heavy armor, but then your dex score is really low due to the lack of a good reflex save. Looks like Human would be a good choice for the extra feat and extra skill points. Alternatively a Warforged Warblade/Artificer has the ability to heal himself, has the int synergy but loses the cha synergy. Also to heal himself in combat he has to use a standard action, and lesser vigor may or may not be houseruled in your campaign to be able to give benefit to a warforged making you resort to a wand of repair light damage. You get a few more good class skills and a higher hitdie but lose heavy armor proficiency and ranged weapon proficiency (with exception to thrown melee weapons) Int to reflex saves when not FF, this part fills in something the Crusader isn't that great at.
bahamut920 01-30-07, 02:32 PM	Personally, I think that the duskblade was almost built with gestalt in mind. Duskblade 20//Cleric 20 - Acrane channeled multiple harm while under Righteous Might. 'Nuff said. A little MAD, but you can probably do with a lesser Strength, and if you're willing to take Battle Caster once, you can dump Dex as well, leaving Int and Wis as your main two stats, with Con secondary. Duskblade 20//Wizard 15/Abjurant Champion 5 - Full wizard casting combined with duskblade arcane channeling meteor swarm and energy drain. Less MAD than the dusk//cleric above, but a minor armor problem. With abjurant champion, though, you gain bonuses to spells giving armor and shield bonuses, so you can use greater mage armor and shield in place of actual armor and shields. A variation with more AC would be duskblade 13/duelist 7//wizard15/abjurant champion 5. Duskblade 20//Warblade 20 - I know people say melee/melee builds are not really good, but there's a certain charm to this one. Both classes essentially require the same abilities, and Iron Heart has a lot of weapon-based maneuvers. I'm not exactly sure whether you can arcane channel into a maneuver, though. I think not. Still, avoid taking strike maneuvers with your warblade levels and you're just peachy (duskblades have 10,000 spells they can use on just that, and a lot of boosts synergy well with that). Warmage 20//Sorcerer 15 (metamagic specialist variant)/Archmage 5 - Kind of like the sor//wiz recommendation in UA, except less MAD and a little meatier in the Hit Dice department. You might be a little shorter on utility spells that a sor//wiz, but you'll definitely have enough spells/day to last you. Your archmage levels give you quite a few desirable special abilities, as well, most of all being mastery of energy and mastery of shaping. In fact, you may only want to take those two levels of Archmage (most of the other abilities aren't particularly useful for this build). Also, with your Metamagic Specialist variant, you don't lose out on anything from taking archmage levels, while your warmage spells already have the Sudden Metamagic feats. The downside is that most of your feats will be taken up qualifying for the Archmage PrC.
Mitsukai_sama 01-31-07, 02:02 AM	I'm not exactly sure whether you can arcane channel into a maneuver, though. I think not. Correct - no, you cannot. Arcane Channelling requires either a Standard Action or a Full Round Action to execute. If you've already expended that action, you cannot execute a martial adept Strike (99.9% of which have an activation time of one Standard Action) simultaneously. However, you can channel in conjunction with a Boost (almost all of which are Swift or Immmediate), which can be plenty useful. Duskblade has wonderful synergy, and its worth noting that Quick Cast is not restricted only to Duskblade spells, nor are you restricted on what touch spells you're allowed to channel... Duskblade//Wizard is absolutely devastating beyond Level 13.
ravenshrike 01-31-07, 03:49 PM	Agreed; even as a power gamer, I can't stand the munchkinry of offset tweaking. The same ruling you suggested applies in the Gestalt campagins I DM (easy way to convince a player this is the way to go: you only have one PC you can offset tweak with... but if an NPC dies, I can just roll a new one and tweak it even more; not very fair to you now, is it?). Sure you can, and in the case of the BBEG's inner cabal, there's no problem with said tweaking. But are you really gonna gestalt every single freaking NPC in the world? That's why it's GESTALT. It's not meant to have the balance of a normal game.
Mitsukai_sama 01-31-07, 08:38 PM	But are you really gonna gestalt every single freaking NPC in the world? Actually... All seriousness aside, I tend to gestalt anything with base class levels, because its much easier to determine what will be an appropriate challenge to the PCs. Adepts, commoners, and the like all retain their normal single-level progression. That's why it's GESTALT. It's not meant to have the balance of a normal game. Perhaps I misworded the point I'm trying to make, just as I'm sure you don't mean that game balance can be disregarded because a campaign is Gestalt. Too easy, the players feel unchallenged and bored, leading to all kinds of trouble, while too difficult, and players will throw up their arms in frustration. The point I was trying to get across, is that any time you allow an option to the PCs, you immediately make the world more dangerous for them, assuming that NPCs have the same options immediately available to them (and why wouldn't they?). Even if you only opted to gestalt the campaign's BBEG and other boss-type encounters - you're probably talking somewhere between 10 and 20 gestalt builds between L1 and L20. How many does the party of PCs have? Iconically speaking, four. Munchkin NPCs have a clear advantage over munchkin PCs, by virtue of the fact that there will always be more NPC opposition. That, and offset tweaking just plain doesn't make sense. Okay, so at Level 20, 5% of my training is in a combat oriented class, with the remaining 95% all in mage-type classes... yet my BAB is still +20? Sure... that makes perfect sense! Why, a Fighter1/Psion19//Wizard20//Munchkin40 should be able to swing just as accurately and as quickly as a Warblade20//Wizard20, right?
ravenshrike 02-01-07, 12:41 AM	That, and offset tweaking just plain doesn't make sense. Okay, so at Level 20, 5% of my training is in a combat oriented class, with the remaining 95% all in mage-type classes... yet my BAB is still +20? Sure... that makes perfect sense! Why, a Fighter1/Psion19//Wizard20//Munchkin40 should be able to swing just as accurately and as quickly as a Warblade20//Wizard20, right? Ah, I wouldn't allow that for 1/2 BAB. You would only advance BAB when the progression is uneven. Which means you would need a 3/4 BAB to get full from an offset. 1/2 BAB would give you 3/4. I suppose you could set it so a full BAB prog. would five you an extra +1 every four levels.
Nessaj 02-01-07, 12:58 AM	Sorry if any of these have been mentioned, but I don't care to scroll through 6 pages of posts :P I've played more than a few Gestault chars and some of my favorites are: Archivist/Beguiler: My current character. Dedicated support. So far I'm liking it. Extra skill points boost those knowledges and between the two classes you get nearly every skill in the game as a class skill. And Divine Healing + all the obnoxious illusion Beguiler spells mean you don't die very easily. Mmm Displaced Greater Mirror Images... Fighter/Monk: Kung-Fu Master. Nuff said. Rogue/Wizard: 13+ skill points per level STILL isn't enough! :rolleyes: (Untried) Ranger/Wizard: Ranged Specialist, focusing on Ray spells, eventually going into Spellwarp Sniper on the Wizard side, and Arcane Archer on the Ranger side. I think it make for an interesting character, don't you? Burning Hands becomes a 5d4 ray with no save...Or you could throw an AMF onto your shot as you strike someone with a Shot on the Run...Hope to give it a try sometime. :D
DrakkStarfinger 02-01-07, 02:10 AM	would a Crusader/Dread Necromancer build work? i like the idea of making an undead army that you lead into battle, but not sure if they will synergize well.
sorvikcorsair 02-01-07, 02:43 AM	Not reading all 6 pages, but I have played a CN Rogue/Psion (Nomad) through level 26. I was a thief who sold the 'spoils' to rich people, most of whom I stole from. It was a large city campaign (best one I ever got to play in), which allowed me to steal from one side of town, and sell on the other. I did get caught once, but I cloaked my mind abilities with magic items that would let me do the same things. So when they put me in jail and took my items, getting out was a simple Telepathic Teleport away. That was before the Complete Arcane. Now I would prolly go warlock/psion until I can get Walk Unseen, and coupled with See the Unseen, I could see traps much easier. Then once I have Walk Unseen go rogue/psion the rest of the way. It was fun to play, and had its limits.
calronmoonflower 02-05-07, 01:40 AM	I really like warlock as part of a gestalt combo. A dread necromancer/warlock would have their own undead bodyguards and a nasty ranged attack. Plus when you get high enough you can use Udderdark Blast with a blast shape invocation to heal your undead minions and blast your enemies. Also after level 20 you can heal yourself of +10d6 points of damage per round. warlock/wizard can work if you have a couple of good tanks to help you out. Also with the eldritch blast you can become a specialist with evocation as a restricted school without as much penalty. A rogue/swashbuckler 19 with 1 level a warlock/barbarian has a nice movement rate along with good melee abilities and a surprise ranged attack. Add the Quicken Spell-Like Ability feat for a quick deadly strike. Even without gestalt levels giving a rogue one level of warlock with Quicken Spell-Like Ability can be nasty. I also like the idea of a warlock/paladin, but that wouldn't work as a warlock cannot be lawful good and still gain levels. One other good point of a warlock as Cha isn't as necessary as with spell casters. It sets the DC of many invocations, but doesn't require a high Cha to get the highest level invocations. Quickened Spell-Like Ability works of of caster level, not character level. I cannot believe no one pointed that out to me.
psionicbattousai 02-05-07, 07:49 PM	Nothing to crazy, just wanted to expound upon my previous post: Psion 10/Shadow Mind 10 //Druid 20 Shadow Mind is here. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8524646&postcount=1) Basically, powerful spell casting (while in a powerful form due to natural spell), powerful manifesting (while in a powerful form due to manifesting being purely mental), a powerful form, a powerful animal companion, healing, blasting, melee and/or ranged capabilities. Very nice. Alternately, if you care about either wild form or animal companions a lot more then normal, then use: Psion 5/Shadow Mind 5/Psion 5/Shadow Mind 5//Druid 10/[Master of Many Forms or Beastmaster] 5/Druid 5. Done this way due to prerequisites, and not being able to take 2 PrCs at once.
MagicMouth 02-06-07, 01:47 PM	I like the SOLDIER (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=706356) // Swordsage. With both maneuvers and Limit Breaks you really become the incarnation of Final Fantasy, don´t you think? :D d10 HD Full BAB All good saves Evasion AND Mettle Good Wisdom synergy with No Thought and the insight bonus to AC
Sphyre 02-06-07, 02:48 PM	I like the SOLDIER (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=706356) // Swordsage. With both maneuvers and Limit Breaks you really become the incarnation of Final Fantasy, don´t you think? :D d10 HD Full BAB All good saves Evasion AND Mettle Good Wisdom synergy with No Thought and the insight bonus to AC That class is kind of overpowered to begin with. The fact that you get fast healing before a barbarian gets his first damage reduction just doesn't seem right. So yeah, that would be a great combo, because you're mixing overpowered that fills a lot of the holes of the Swordsage too.
Mitsukai_sama 02-06-07, 10:25 PM	That class is kind of overpowered to begin with. The fact that you get fast healing before a barbarian gets his first damage reduction just doesn't seem right. So yeah, that would be a great combo, because you're mixing overpowered that fills a lot of the holes of the Swordsage too. Agreed. Better to stick to published overpowered classes. ;]
Krusk 02-06-07, 11:57 PM	Agreed. Better to stick to published overpowered classes. ;] That sounds like a joke, but I'd have to agree. It is much easier for a DM to counter and provide a challenge for a class he is familiar for, not one he has never heard of until the start of the campaign, that may or may not be balanced.
Sphyre 02-07-07, 12:13 AM	Agreed. Better to stick to published overpowered classes. ;] yeah... like CoDzilla ;) You may note, that other than something like obscure races (and maybe some weird PrCs, or tricks to get into those PrCs) always on fast healing isn't obtainable until higher levels. And using wotc published overpowered classes is an extremely cheesy way to rationalize the 'balancing' of your overpowered homebrew classes - in that case you're just ramping up the power creep even more.
Curunir 02-07-07, 07:30 AM	Checked this whole thread to see if my suggestion was here. The most broken gestalt I can think of is Psion//Binder. On the binder side, I would go Knight of the Sacred Seal for five levels of full BAB and increased armor and weapon prof. There are three Psionic Vestiges in a recent "Minds Eye" article you will probably make use of but the real broken thing about this build is taking the Body Fuel feat and binding Naberius. Naberius recovers you 1 point of each damaged ability score each round, Body Fuel sacrifices one point each of Str, Dex, and Con for 2 power points. This allows you to recharge your power pool endlessly. Really, you just need one level of Binder to make this work (Naberius is a 1st level vestige) but I love the flavor and effectiveness of the class so I would continue in it. I'd play a Kalashtar, it would make the most sense. Other stuff I have include Paladin//Monk with the Serenity feat, so that all Paladin and Monk abilities are based off of Wisdom. Talk about insane saving throws. Or you could do Monk//Wizard or Monk//Rogue and take the Kung Fu Genius feat to do essentially the same thing with your intelligence. Battle Dancer//Sorcerer is pretty good too.
Mitsukai_sama 02-07-07, 08:47 AM	yeah... like CoDzilla ;) I'm glad someone got the punchline. :] Kudos. Checked this whole thread to see if my suggestion was here. The most broken gestalt I can think of is Psion//Binder. On the binder side, I would go Knight of the Sacred Seal for five levels of full BAB and increased armor and weapon prof. There are three Psionic Vestiges in a recent "Minds Eye" article you will probably make use of but the real broken thing about this build is taking the Body Fuel feat and binding Naberius. Naberius recovers you 1 point of each damaged ability score each round, Body Fuel sacrifices one point each of Str, Dex, and Con for 2 power points. This allows you to recharge your power pool endlessly. Really, you just need one level of Binder to make this work (Naberius is a 1st level vestige) but I love the flavor and effectiveness of the class so I would continue in it. I'd play a Kalashtar, it would make the most sense. Other stuff I have include Paladin//Monk with the Serenity feat, so that all Paladin and Monk abilities are based off of Wisdom. Talk about insane saving throws. Or you could do Monk//Wizard or Monk//Rogue and take the Kung Fu Genius feat to do essentially the same thing with your intelligence. Battle Dancer//Sorcerer is pretty good too. I believe (correct if I'm wrong) Body Fuel inflicts Ability Burn, which, to the best of my understanding, can only be healed through natural means. (EDIT: confirmed by a quick pass through the SRD). And where are the Serenity/Kung Fu Genius feats? o_O Surely, not core/core supplement. Feats that force synergy between two classes seem just as broken in Gestalt as those that cause multiclass levels to stack (Ascetic Stalker and the like) and hybrid PrCs, IMO. I would even think twice before allowing them in a single-progression campaign (Divine Grace + AC Bonus both keyed off of Wis seems overwhelmingly powerful - it seems that investing in the two abilities is intended to be MAD). EDIT: Serenity and Kung Fu Genius come from Dragon. I personally would not allow material printed from a third-party source without careful consideration, lest poorly tested splatbook munchkinry ensue (bear in mind that Paizo Publishing != WotC, not that any material can be sufficiently tested before being printed in a monthly publication...).
Curunir 02-07-07, 07:18 PM	Serenity and Kung Fu Genius were made more official when they were republished in the Dragon Compendium (a WotC hardcover book). So they're both valid. I don't use non WotC book sources.
Mitsukai_sama 02-08-07, 02:02 AM	Serenity and Kung Fu Genius were made more official when they were republished in the Dragon Compendium (a WotC hardcover book). So they're both valid. I don't use non WotC book sources. Don't mean to nit-pick, but check the publisher... It is not a WotC book; like the magazine itself, its published by Paizo Publishing, under license from WotC. Huge difference - WotC is making money off of the name, Paizo is effectively the one in control of the content. Its only a compilation of material previously released in past issues of Dragon (neither core nor core supplement), so in reality (while there may be a few gems in there), its just another third-party splatbook. Just because its hardcover doesn't mean its WotC. ;]
LordInsane 02-08-07, 01:55 PM	Kung Fu Genius can be (mostly) replaced by Carmendine Monk, which is an official WotC feat. It's found in FR, though. Specificaly, Champions of Valor.
Mitsukai_sama 02-08-07, 02:06 PM	Kung Fu Genius can be (mostly) replaced by Carmendine Monk, which is an official WotC feat. It's found in FR, though. Very true - I'm not too familiar with FR (despite having most campaign-associated materials), but I suppose this should be an indication that its something to look further into. The feat would definitely help to min-max the Wizard//Duelist build I had posted earlier in the thread. ;] Thanks for pointing this out.
obrysii 02-08-07, 02:46 PM	Um, just out of curiousity, why did you take stunning fist instead of Imp. Grapple? Werebear gets it as a bonus ability.
Harkle 02-11-07, 01:57 AM	How about Crusader//any spell caster Crusaders Steely resolve means you'll need to take a fair amount of damage each round before you have to make a concentration check, and even then the check isn't going to be all that bad unless you were totally abused before your turn that round.
Vagrond 02-11-07, 04:46 AM	Not broken, but whatever- Paladin-Bard =Power metal Barbarian/Warlock-Bard =Black metal Druid-Bard =Folk metal Barbarian-Bard =Viking metal Fighter-Barbarian/Bard =Battle metal Someone add to this, please! Funnily enough there's a band called demilich :confused:
calronmoonflower 02-12-07, 02:20 AM	I just thought of this one. fighter/soul knife 7, psychic warrior/soul knife 3, ballisteer/soulbow 10 You get a BAB of 16, ML 9, two good save and a moderate one. A free sword (or two) and a tricked out ranged weapon. If you take the two-weapon fighting chain you'll get 7 ranged attacks per turn. You can pile one rapid shot and inrproved rapid shot for even more. You can even get AoO by forming a mind blade as a free action at the end of your turn and droping it at the start of your next turn. FYI Ballisteer is a 3.0 psionic prestige class from the Mind's Eye. You can find it at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030426b Man that thing needs updated to 3.5 :headexplo
Khandar 02-12-07, 02:44 AM	I'm not too familiar with the Archivist, but I know it is a Divine Caster that uses Int as it's casting stat. I'd imagine it would work VERY well with a Duskblade.
Mnky 02-12-07, 03:26 AM	If nobody's already said it: Barbarian/Monk The combo that's so broken it's impossible.
The_Envoy 02-12-07, 04:44 AM	Would these be considered broken? Do they work? First build Side One Marshal1,Rogue2-5,Bard1-3,Spymaster2-7,Marshal6-11/ Side Two Rogue1,Marshal2-5,Spymaster1,Assassin1,Chameleon1-10,Bard4-5,Exemplar1 This build is the epitome of diversity. Marshal minor auras focused motivating skill checks, ability boon and focuses to give bonues to several skills as well. Spymaster lets you become anyone and no one will ever know. Your charisma will always be top priority. Doubling your charisma means you most likely will never be found out. Perform (act) when you are in-role you can grab the feat disguise spell. You are a great leader and can help everyone aid everyone else be better at everything. or those with less skill in certain areas. I like the idea of having a leader than can not just direct in combat situation but in adventuring (Climb and Jump), observing (Spot Listen and maybe Search), Infiltration Sneak (Hide and Move Silently), or Infiltration Charm (Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate) Imagine a slightly charming Barbarian or a sneaky one. Second build Archivist20/Cloistered Cleric19,Marshal1 (motivate intelligence) This build will give bouses via Dark Knowledge against pesky monsters as well as having knowledge on just about everything. Grab improved domain ability and you can add your charisma modifier to your intelligence, use a 10 on knowledge checks (even those that you don't have rank in. You will know everything.
Mitsukai_sama 02-12-07, 09:39 AM	If nobody's already said it: Barbarian/Monk The combo that's so broken it's impossible. Wait a second, you-- ohhh, I get it. :D I'm not too familiar with the Archivist, but I know it is a Divine Caster that uses Int as it's casting stat. I'd imagine it would work VERY well with a Duskblade. You could tear through most things like nothing at higher levels: not much would be able to withstand a few Harm spells channeled through your melee attacks. Save maybe the undead... which is why you have Heal. :]
Feithen 02-13-07, 02:45 PM	Well, this might not really be considered broken, but it's a lot of fun! Our group varies from 3 to 5 people per week, and since most people are taking classes that give them access to more "stuff", I wanted to focus on JUST being the fighter. Early levels, I worked up fighter and ranger. Fighter for the obvious reasons, ranger for TWF and some bonus utility, favored enemies and saves. Feat focus is around bladed gauntlets, and increasing damage (weapon spec, reckless attack, etc). Now, we have an original print Sword and Fist and didn't realise the update changed the critical threat range, so the DM ruled I could use it as originally printed. By 8th lvl I'm critting at 13-20, and hitting like a machine gun. The gauntlets are both light so the two weapon penalties are cake to deal with. I've also qualified for Living Blade (more damage, parry, extra attack, etc), and while finishing that, will qualify for Weapon Master. That'll put my critical threat range into the realm of "completely obscene", let me chose to up my crit modifier, and add even further to my base damage and attack. If I hit, it's a crit, almost always. Weapon wise, since I crit constantly, I'm working up the weapon enhancements that add damage types on a critical.. thundering, icy blast, etc. And just for kicks, last week something absolutely horrifying happened and I'm now going up in half-fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) while I finish LB. The added stats and spell resistence (which I'll bump up to Supernatural SR and Area SR with the appropriate feats) help me stay alive fairly well. For giggles, I took two flaws and burnt them getting Improved Initiative and Blooded and since my stat spread is Str/Dex heavy, I'm almost always first to act every round. Is it the best combo to do a ton of different things? Not really. But it DOES make for a pretty obscene fighter build. ;) If anybody can think of further obscene damage-adding classes I'd love to hear them! Kensi was on the list for a bit, but won't work for the campaign. I'm looking for things that will help the huge advantage my crit range already gives me, things that help my base damage, and things that help me hit more and/or harder.
ShinoAburame 02-13-07, 11:14 PM	Druid/Soulknife. Bare with me, druid's spells buff "natural weapons" Isn't the mindblade a natural weapon sense it comesout of you?
Sphyre 02-13-07, 11:39 PM	Druid/Soulknife. Bare with me, druid's spells buff "natural weapons" Isn't the mindblade a natural weapon sense it comesout of you? If you do some pretty big stretching of the rules. Mind Blade (Su): As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind. The blade is identical in all ways (except visually) to a short sword of a size appropriate for its wielder. Short Swords are manufactured weapons, not natural weapons, thus they are treated as such.
lastknightleft 02-15-07, 04:54 PM	I don't think people will think this is broken, but I love it, I took a bard/ranger (gasps from all those who love to say these suck), that means that only disable device and open lock aren't class skills. Then used the bardic knack alternate from PHBII and put one rank in everything that couldn't be used untrained, one rank in every knowledge, one in open locks, and one in disable device. I now have ranks in every skill in the game for purposes of skill checks (who needs bardic knowledge lol):D
Pitiless_Interfector 02-16-07, 09:05 PM	If nobody's already said it: Barbarian/Monk The combo that's so broken it's impossible. Barbarian: Alignment: Any nonlawful. Monk: Alignment: Any lawful. Become lawful and lose rage and advancement, or become chaotic and lose monk class features and advancement? It doesn't matter, because anyone who has even a single level of this build is suffering from chronic schizophrenia, manic-depressive disorder, and sonic diarrhea (don't ask, it isn't pretty). Broken gestalt: archivist 20//wizard 20. With wish, aging bonuses, and level based advancement, even a baseline human (if Int 18 can be considered 'baseline') can prepare the following: Divine: 4/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6 Arcane: 4/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5 You get a sh!tload of special abilities that provide nonmagical buffs to your allies against truly strange creatures ( :coolcthul ), as well as 4 + Int skills, still mind (I think there's at least one monk-specific PrC whose 'monk-specificity' relied on still mind being monk-only), useful bonuses to several Knowledge skills (or an outrageous bonus on one skill, if you feel like PrC'ing the Wiz side), and a bonus metamagic or item creation feat at level 5, 10, 10, 15, 20, and 20 (those were not misprints: yes, 2 feats at the same level on two separate occasions!). You can easily meet the prereqs for Innate Spell; at 18th level you can choose to lose one of your six 9th-level divine spell slots to gain cure light wounds at will (read: immunity to HP attrition from multiple encounters in a day, due to your ability to heal an average of 90 hp in a single minute), or one of your five 9th-level arcane spell slots to gain magic missile at will (read: deal 18 damage to any creature without impenetrable SR, spell immunity, spell turning, or forceward from almost a quarter mile away, ignoring incorporeality, etherealness, DR, AC, and less than total cover and concealment. (Too bad Innate Spell isn't actually a metamagic feat... otherwise you could pick up both these combos and have an extra feat left at 20th level... :weep: ) If you don't mind losing 2 of your wizard metamagic feats (which your archivist levels make up for), you can easily pick up Cooperative Spell (since you get Scribe Scroll as a 1st level bonus feat for both classes, you can always beg your DM to give you an 'equally useless' feat as compensation). And you know what that means, don't you? Yes, you can take 10 levels as a Mage of the Arcane Order, allowing you access to the Spellpool (for all intents and purposes negating the need for a spell to actually be in your wizard's spellbook to cast). You can always hunt down a hierophant or two and ask him to make 'divine magical writings' (covered in a vague and easily abused manner in the PHB) of any spells you can't get into your prayerbook. (You'll need to use such writings anyway to get druid spells, unless you want to waste thousands of XP on commune spells in finding the mythical Lost Cabal of High-Level Druids Who Wasted a Feat Slot on Scribe Scroll.) This, my friends, is how to fulfill the true dream of munchkins (minus the parts in parentheses): (Theoretically) cast any spell in the Player's Handbook (that is not exclusive to a cleric domain). And at epic levels (epic level gestalts! :OMG!), the fun REALLY begins, first with Epic Spellcasting (yes, you need to take it twice--can't have it all), then with Improved Spell Capacity (which, when combined with Innate Spell, can easily give you such awesome powers as unlimited-use greater teleport (self plus a hell of a lot more than 50 lbs. of objects only), resurrection (you'll need to take Eschew Materials and Ignore Material Components for this one to work, unless you want to have to carry around a mundane diamond worth 500,000+ gp as a focus), horrid wilting, and even meteor swarm, time stop, mass heal, and wail of the banshee if you play to 31st and beyond. If you can find anything more broken than a baseline humanoid with Divine Rank 0.5, let me know, OK?
legacyheir 02-17-07, 10:22 AM	Barbarian: Alignment: Any nonlawful. Monk: Alignment: Any lawful. Become lawful and lose rage and advancement, or become chaotic and lose monk class features and advancement? It doesn't matter, because anyone who has even a single level of this build is suffering from chronic schizophrenia, manic-depressive disorder, and sonic diarrhea (don't ask, it isn't pretty). Actually, thanks to Dragon its not. I'm not sure of which issue, but they made what's called the "Chaos Monk": the monk, just a chaotic variant. So, it could work. Or, one could do regular Monk/Sohei (OA). Similar, plus adds some spells.
EyeHunter 02-17-07, 10:43 AM	To make a Barbarian/Monk: :monk: At 10th: Fighter 10//monk 10, Then: fighter 10/barbarian 10//monk 10/drunken master 10(CW) If I remember correctly, Drunken Masters gain most monk abilities and can be of any AL. The one-man party: :evillaugh :evillaugh Arcane Spellcaster 20(Int)//Warrior 20 (UA: Generic Classes, page 76) :evillaugh :evillaugh Spellcaster has access to all cleric, druid, or Sor/Wiz spells, giving this gestalt a Divine and an Arcane spellcasting. Warrior gives a good base attack bonus. Both grant class skills include craft, all knowlegde, and profession, plus ten skills of your own choosing. With your high Int, becoming a skilled character, like the Rogue, should be no problem; you can even take Trapfinding! Having only two good saves is your only real problem.16 bonus feats if your DM allows, and I would. I'd recommend Extra Spell and Extra Slot (CAr):plotting: Others: Cleric//Warmage (CAr) (kill spells and healing, plus armor) Warmage//Wizard (kill spells and utility) Monk//Rogue (flurry of sneak attacks!) Fighter//Warrior (UA: Generic Classes, page 76) (The king of feats) Duskblade//Battle Sorcerer (UA: page 56) (now channeling in light armor) Monk// Knight (PHBII) (monk with d12 plus full BAB, but no armor's sad :weep:)
h2doh 02-17-07, 10:01 PM	just thought of something soulknife 20//rogue 10, kensai 10 +5 soulknife enhansement+4 kensai enhansment 10 +19 weapons twf for free 5d6 sneak attack hehehe
Alpha_Moose 02-17-07, 10:42 PM	Artificer/Jedi. Can you use Star Wars d20? If you could, this would be an insanely broken combo.
Pitiless_Interfector 02-17-07, 11:50 PM	Actually, thanks to Dragon its not. I'm not sure of which issue, but they made what's called the "Chaos Monk": the monk, just a chaotic variant. So, it could work. Or, one could do regular Monk/Sohei (OA). Similar, plus adds some spells. Not what?
Magrus 02-17-07, 11:54 PM	Actually, thanks to Dragon its not. I'm not sure of which issue, but they made what's called the "Chaos Monk": the monk, just a chaotic variant. So, it could work. Or, one could do regular Monk/Sohei (OA). Similar, plus adds some spells. Apparently, Dragon is full of idiots. *claps* I dunno, that uses the same logic as the folks wanting to have wizards that are incapable of reading and writing anything. No matter what way you view a monk, they have a very strict, and unbending view of their own personal "world". That is lawful. A "chaos monk" would be a martial artist, and there is a difference between the two. Even so, martial arts require a lawful bend towards things. I know a black belt in Karate who is a year younger than me who has been running a dojo for the past 4 years. It requires an incredible amount of self-control and discipline to reach anywhere NEAR that point, and that is only the actual physical/martial aspect of the monk. That doesn't deal with the spiritual/mystic side of the monk at all. I would straight up ban any chaos monk varients like nothing in my games.
Krusk 02-18-07, 02:25 AM	A chaos monk varient does follow the same logic as the evil palidin varients. But unfortunatly they are both legal classes, and no matter what you houserule they are still legal in many other peoples games. They are also legal for builds in this thread. dont drag the illiterate wizard into this thread, it has its own. Personally i know a fair ammount of black belts in various martial arts. One in ninjitsu that i have never seen sober. One in tai kwan do who regularly challenges people to fights - i won-. I also know two that teach something, i forget what, they are both perfect examples of what their form traditionally says. my point is, that just because a discipline's doctrine is one of law and respect for others that does not mean every member follows this to a letter. I straight up ban all monks in my games, they dont fit flavor or campaign world. That doesn't mean i dont consider them valid builds for others.
Mitsukai_sama 02-18-07, 02:38 AM	Actually, thanks to Dragon its not. I'm not sure of which issue, but they made what's called the "Chaos Monk": the monk, just a chaotic variant. So, it could work. Or, one could do regular Monk/Sohei (OA). Similar, plus adds some spells. Please read the rest of the thread; Dragon != WotC people, its not an official variant.
Hariman 02-19-07, 04:07 AM	Duskblade/Cleric: Arcane Channeling isn't restricted to arcane spells if your character can cast divine. Slight MAD. Duskblade/Ninja: Free Greater Invisibilities for a few rounds + full attack arcane channeling. Brokenified. Even with MAD. Monk/Ninja: Weapon Finesse + Ghost Step + Flurry + Sudden Strike = HOLY SH*T DUDE! Fighter/Duskblade: Oh, the things you can do with all of those feats. Dragon Shaman/Bard: The buffer from hell! Those are the best combos that I can think of. About the Chaos Monk being banned from one guys game: So a chaotic person can't be disciplined and focused? WTF? Chaotic doesn't mean unfocused and lacking discipline! If it did, Robin Hood would have sucked with a bow. A chaos monk likely doesn't come from a monastery. He's a loner who has perfected his style without the help of others. Any actual "monastery" would likely resemble a den of thieves/brigands/unruly frat house. (#3 is sarcasm) Thievery would run rampant in a chaos monk "monastery". Classes would likely be the regular beatings from senior students. Or perhaps classes would be irregular activities, like pantie raids ALA Ranma1/2. Debauchery would be encouraged. Drunkenness would probably be expected. (Chaos Monk Drunken Masters would like it there. Even drunken masters would likely have a good time.) Heck, a chaos monk "monastery" might just be where the Chaos Monks go to sleep off their wounds. A chaos monk would undoubtedly be the guy that ignores the law while mastering his own style of martial arts. Good chaos monks would get along with the authorities, to a point. Neutral CMs would be carefree wanderers, likely with a student in tow. Evil Chaos Monks would be killers who might just kill you for wearing blue and looking at them funny.
Krusk 02-19-07, 11:22 AM	I see chaos monk like that guy from kung-fu movies who runs off into the woods and trains himself to fight by punching rocks.
camway 02-20-07, 02:55 AM	What kind of insane combinations have you guys come up with for gestalt? Here's a few I've found: 1) Psion / Wilder: Power points, unlike spell per day, are cumulative and shared between all classes. You've got twice as many power points per day as a nongestalt build to spend on powers from both class lists. You can focus on discipline-specific powers with your psion list and use wilder to pick up those situational powers like astral caravan. early. thats not correct in gestalt you take the best of the two abilities and so on. Power points are included so if one has 300 and the other has 200 you don't gain 500 you have 300.
XrP-Leon The Second 02-20-07, 03:29 AM	Camway, that is only with regards to BAB, HD, saves, and skillpoints. You gain ALL special abilities of each class. That means a fighter/fighter gets two feats and a wilder/psion gets two pools of PP
maharaj zordon 02-20-07, 04:29 AM	I agree with the above quote, in the same way that a wizard//sorcerer would get 2 sets of spell slots, a psion//wilder would get all the power points from each side, since power points are really just like spell slots converted to numbers.
Mnky 02-20-07, 04:34 PM	Ah, I never knew of Chaos monks when I planned the Barbarian/Monk combo. I'll have to try one sometime, if I can find the issue with chaos monks in.
baltasar_basilius 03-04-07, 01:06 AM	Some people say power points dont stack- i say they do. the problem is a big SO WHAT? you're saves are worthless, bab is still terrible on the gestalt standard, and you don't have anything but manifesting to prove for all your efforts. Making broken gestalt builds is like making broken builds in general. You have some goal set in mind- and then twist and turn and pull and push every little detail until every core class and PrC fits just right. A "broken" gestalt build is rarely setting up 2 classes and riding both out on both sides for 20 levels.
Dracomortis 03-04-07, 09:36 AM	Some people say power points dont stack- i say they do. the problem is a big SO WHAT? you're saves are worthless, bab is still terrible on the gestalt standard, and you don't have anything but manifesting to proven for all your efforts. Making broken gestalt builds is like making broken builds in general. You have some goal set in mind- and then twist and turn and pull and push every little detail until every core class and PrC fits just right. A "broken" gestalt build is rarely setting up 2 classes and riding both out on both sides for 20 levels. We seem to have very different ideas of what useful is, as being able to manifest my powers twice as often as usual in a given day is a very big "so what" in my book.
baltasar_basilius 03-05-07, 01:11 AM	We seem to have very different ideas of what useful is, as being able to manifest my powers twice as often as usual in a given day is a very big "so what" in my book. Sorry, i guess i shouldn't be as harsh when i choose my words. I didn't use the word useful(even though i do think it is useless after i played around with some numbers and PrC possibilties, and i will explain why later on). I'm just saying wilder/psion isn't "broken" by ANY means(broken gestalt being the topic, not useful gestalt)- because also remember that the chain is usually as strong as the weakest link. I am currently playing in a gestalt campaign right now, and I did consider a psion/wilder for alittle while. But i decided against it because of several reasons: 1.Physically weak character (poor hit die and BAB) 2.Poor saves other than will 3.Other than the discipline, powers are selected from exact same list. And there are way too few psionic books on top of that. 4.Large numbers of temporary power points can be gained via Mind's Eye prestige classes. So yeah- if you are really looking for alot of power points, then i suggest go into body leech, or psychic weapon master and make a mindfeeder weapon with a good critical range. also an added plus, because you're playing gestalt you won't need to lose manifester levels to take the classes! Its a win/win all around. You don't need to sacrifice both sides of the gestalt to get alot of power points.:D
Dracomortis 03-06-07, 04:11 PM	Sorry, i guess i shouldn't be as harsh when i choose my words. I didn't use the word useful(even though i do think it is useless after i played around with some numbers and PrC possibilties, and i will explain why later on). I'm just saying wilder/psion isn't "broken" by ANY means(broken gestalt being the topic, not useful gestalt)- because also remember that the chain is usually as strong as the weakest link. I am currently playing in a gestalt campaign right now, and I did consider a psion/wilder for alittle while. But i decided against it because of several reasons: 1.Physically weak character (poor hit die and BAB) 2.Poor saves other than will 3.Other than the discipline, powers are selected from exact same list. And there are way too few psionic books on top of that. 4.Large numbers of temporary power points can be gained via Mind's Eye prestige classes. So yeah- if you are really looking for alot of power points, then i suggest go into body leech, or psychic weapon master and make a mindfeeder weapon with a good critical range. also an added plus, because you're playing gestalt you won't need to lose manifester levels to take the classes! Its a win/win all around. You don't need to sacrifice both sides of the gestalt to get alot of power points.:D Meh, the topic originally was "broken combinations", but we very quickly agreed that there aren't really that many, and so we just kind of went off onto "interesting combinations" instead. I in no way found your words to be harsh, nor did I mean mine to be, I was just pointing out that I find that particular combo to be quite appealing. Maybe it's just because I've played casters/manifesters so long that having 1/2 BAB and only one good save no longer sounds like a bad thing :D
mikeg710 03-14-07, 11:26 AM	(If this particular issue has already been addressed, I apologize.) Wouldn't any gestalt class combination using monk or paladin technically be a "broken combo" because of the following specific class restrictions: Ex-Monks ... Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities. Ex-Paladins ... Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities. Acording to the SRD: Gestalt Characters In this high-powered campaign variant, characters essentially take two classes at every level, choosing the best aspects of each. The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. if the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap. After taking one level of either monk or paladin, the nature of the gestalt rules means you could not advance further as a monk or paladin unless you had a way of continuing advancement in those classes via a feat, house rule, etc. Is this technically a correct interpretation?
Krusk 03-14-07, 01:01 PM	It might be technically illegal, im not sure. But if it were im sure any dm worth playing under would rule it was ok.
Alpha_Moose 04-04-07, 04:11 PM	I just thought of a pretty fun idea. Take one side full Artificer, and the other do a mesh of Cleric (or Paladin), Warblade, and Ruby Knight Vindicator. This can be fun because: Ruby Knight requires you to worship Wee Jas, so if you go Cleric with Magic domain you don't need to make a ton of UMD checks. The Warblade boosts your combat quite a bit. And the best part. Divine Impertus from the Ruby Knight lets you use turn undead attempts to give you extra swift actions. With Quickened Metamagic and a buttload of wands you get a lot of spells cast in one round. Now just add Nightsticks for ultimate cheese.
calronmoonflower 04-04-07, 05:31 PM	:eek: Zombie thread. Break out the holy water and holy symbols. artificer/druid A druid by themselves can destroy a city (that where C.O.D.zilla comes from) and the extra magic items that you get from being an artificermakes for even more extreme beat down.
Chanmanm8 04-04-07, 05:45 PM	that last one is a no-go, MT [mystic theurge] is specifically on the 'not allowed' PrC list. Um...I believe the description about DUAL classes like this one are is that they are SUGGESTED to be prohibited. The same misconception applies to the belief that some people say that you can't take 2 PrC's simultaneosly.. From the SRD and Unearthed Arcana Text: Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes As as: The high-powered nature of the gestalt character variant gives you more room to create unique prestige classes. First, you can create narrowly specialized prestige classes, and they’ll still be compelling choices for PCs because the characters can simultaneously advance in a regular class while taking levels in the prestige class. Players won’t feel shoehorned into a very specific prestige class if they have another class they’re also advancing in. Second, you can create truly outrageous prestige classes-but add the additional cost that such classes take up both class choices for gestalt characters.
Khoran 04-04-07, 06:36 PM	I'm not sure if it would be as good as it sounds at first, but I think Druid/Swordsage Gestalts would be pretty powerful. Upping one stat would help both your spellcasting and your armor bonus. I can't find anywhere where it says that an animal and other things you wildshape into can't use Manuevers and Stances, so that gives you a whole new way to spin combat in your favor, not to mention you would get three good saves. One drawback might be your hit die, which remains a d8.
Krusk 04-04-07, 08:09 PM	Um...I believe the description about DUAL classes like this one are is that they are SUGGESTED to be prohibited. Thing is, the entire system is a suggestion. So most people try to follow the suggestions given. It also suggests you take the best of each class at each level, but you could for some reason ignore the suggestion to take the wizard BAB over fighter if you wanted. It sort of defeats the purpose of them telling you if you just ignore them.
Dracomortis 04-05-07, 11:09 AM	Yeah, I'd probably have to say that barring dual-advancement PrCs is pretty much a given. Otherwise you wind up with 10-th level characters that have the spells known of a 15th-level character.
Toran_A_Sunder 04-05-07, 11:44 AM	Some gestalt combos I've done/will be doing: Human Scout/Swashbuckler/Fighter/Rogue: first gestalt I ever made. always a good BAB. Ok, poor will, which sucked...but I was moving like lighting and decapitating enemies with my rapier left and right. Half-orc Barbarian/Druid: It was a higher level (ish) and my animal companion was a brown bear. Cast Bull's Strength on the bear, then on self, then rage, wade into combat. Kick arse, take names. Dragonwrought winged Kobold Monk/Scout: There has been debate over how useful this build is. Ok, the BAB sucks...but thats where weapon finesse and a ridiculous DEX come into play. Along with a good feat build from PHBII, and while he wasn't dishing out as much damage as he might of, he was damn near impossible to catch on the field. The skill points from scout made his jump, climb, swim, tumble, etc. real high, leaving enough left over for other useful skills. To date, my most fav. gestalt character Human DreadNecro/Warlock: Got this idea from the boards. His saves and BAB arent great, but better than a straight dreadnecro. Plus, a lot more animating capabilities. Raise your undead army, fell flight into the sky, eldritch spear eneies below. Its a good time. Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Ranger/Scout: Again, not a real hard hitter due to small size, but a whirlwind of movement on the field. With TWP and feats to compliment, plus skirmish and other scout abilities. Not broken, but a damn good time to play Kender Beguiler/Rogue: Playing this in the summer. Can't wait. Just can't wait. Killoren Fighter/Druid/Warshaper: Awesome as well. If ur going to read through each and tear it apart, telling me its weaknesses and why it might suck in a certain situation: Don't. I already know what the weakness are. But I love the ideas and have a great time playing each of them. Which is whats really important. Thanks for playing
Toran_A_Sunder 04-05-07, 12:43 PM	And one more I just thought of as I finally had a chance to read in depth the Factotum class Changeling Factotum/Beguiler: This right here is the ultimate spy, IMO. Can look and act like anyone...awesome...I'm playing this if the Kender dies :D
UndefinedDemonicEntity 04-05-07, 03:14 PM	yeah... like CoDzilla ;) Or, in this thread, CaDzilla.
baltasar_basilius 04-06-07, 11:54 PM	I just thought of a pretty fun idea. Take one side full Artificer, and the other do a mesh of Cleric (or Paladin), Warblade, and Ruby Knight Vindicator. Also, a fun idea would be one side Artificer, and another side druid. Your animal companion can share "ANY" spell you cast on it, and with an artificer that really means ANY spell you want. So i can imagine a halfling artificer riding around on the back of an uber-buffed companion. One does the physical fighting- the other blasts away with wands.
Alpha_Moose 04-07-07, 12:18 AM	Also, a fun idea would be one side Artificer, and another side druid. Your animal companion can share "ANY" spell you cast on it, and with an artificer that really means ANY spell you want. So i can imagine a halfling artificer riding around on the back of an uber-buffed companion. One does the physical fighting- the other blasts away with wands. Artificer can work with pretty much anything. Artificer/Rogue for a trap specialist, Artificer/Fighter for all the self-buffing, etc.
WhiteRaven810 04-07-07, 01:19 AM	Illegal of course but a Gestalt Monk/Barbarian would flatten anything. Full BAB leads to more Flurry of Blows then the standard Monk has (six I believe, I don't have the book in front of me). Blend that with a massive Strength and Constitution bonus from a Tireless Rage and the only thing standing when you finally calm down is whatever is faster then 100 ft per move action. Barbarian's Fast Movement is an unnamed bonus and would stack with the Monk's. Damn I need to find a way around the Alignment restrictions on Monk's and Barbarian's.
calronmoonflower 04-07-07, 02:52 AM	Illegal of course but a Gestalt Monk/Barbarian Try a battle dancer (Dragon compendium as they can be chaotic. No flurry though. Also on this tread I've heard of a chaos monk.
concerro 04-09-07, 12:03 AM	paladain/other class for 3 levels to get the cha bonus to saves then go other class/other class
concerro 04-09-07, 12:08 AM	Illegal of course but a Gestalt Monk/Barbarian would flatten anything. Full BAB leads to more Flurry of Blows then the standard Monk has (six I believe, I don't have the book in front of me). Blend that with a massive Strength and Constitution bonus from a Tireless Rage and the only thing standing when you finally calm down is whatever is faster then 100 ft per move action. Barbarian's Fast Movement is an unnamed bonus and would stack with the Monk's. Damn I need to find a way around the Alignment restrictions on Monk's and Barbarian's. Actually the BAB would not affect the flurry of blows per round only the attack modifier. The amount of attacks from flurry of blows is based on the monk level not the BAB.
Sphyre 04-09-07, 12:58 AM	Actually the BAB would not affect the flurry of blows per round only the attack modifier. The amount of attacks from flurry of blows is based on the monk level not the BAB. Flurry of Blows (Ex): When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a –2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to –1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows. When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so. When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus. The level determines the number of additional attacks and what penalty all your attacks make, while your BAB determines the number to hit, and the base number of attacks before you add on. Thusly, at 20th level, a gestalt barbarian/monk would have +20/+15/+10/+5 standard fullround. If he then chooses to FoB he gets 2 additional attacks at no penalty, resulting in +20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5 FoB fullround. The amount of additional attacks on a FoB is based on level, yet the amount of base attacks the character normally has that the FoB adds to is based on BAB. (One additional at +6, another at +11, another at +16)
Saiyamantis 04-09-07, 03:35 AM	I'm surprised the thread has gotten this far without someone mentioning a factotum gestalt- it's absolutely ridiculous when combined with anything else Intelligence-based, and can render other ability scores irrelevant if you do things correctly. CLASSES Monk: Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine Monk plus Cunning Defense lets you add your Intelligence modifier to AC twice. Factotum gives dodge bonuses, which stack with everything. Rogue: Since you can take any skill you want, it'd be a shame not to have any many skill points per level as possible, don't you think? Swashbuckler: I'm playing this right now, and abusing the Improved Trip feat. Brains Over Brawn plus Insightful Strike lets you play a nasty little trip-monkey regardless of your Strength score. Warblade: Because clearly you aren't working your Intelligence score hard enough. Cunning Surge is also excellent for setting up/recovering maneuvers. Wizard: Arcane Dilettante is great when you're polymorphed, since don't have to speak coherently to use spell like abilities. Chameleon: Be the best at two or three things at once. The only drawback is that you have to waste a feat on Able Learner. The meanest combination I can think of off the top of my head is a Factotum 20//Swashbuckler 3/Monk 2/Warblade 15 with all Carmendine Monk/Kung Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Insightful Reflexes, for a frontline combatant who really only needs one ability score.
Noodles2375 04-09-07, 10:35 PM	I played a one shoter with a gestalted: Dwarf Paragon 3/ Fighter 8//Soulknife 11 that was really exciting to play. All the fighter feats combined with the bonus soulknife ones on top, full BAB, the saves don't overlap, the skill points are boosted, and you don't have to worry about spending money on a weapon. Lets you pimp out armor and shield for excellent AC~ Plus the access to a mindblade gives him a stark advantange in the classic "break out of prison" one-shoter. :)
Jym 04-12-07, 02:27 AM	I'm playing a straight druid/monk, and totally loving it.
Harkle 04-12-07, 12:38 PM	SwordSage//Warblade is truely a monster to have in combat. The character knows damn near ever manuver there is an can have most of them prepared at the same time too so there is no reason not to use a manuver every round of combat.
Chimaera2000 04-13-07, 09:37 PM	Hmm.... a warblade//swordsage/Master of Nine sounds interesting. Have manuevers from every single discipline! I'm currently playing as a warforged artificer/warblade and am liking it; the artificer provides lots of versatility while the warblade kicks butt in melee. There's synergy with Intelligence and infusions provide some very potent melee buffs. I recently played a druid // monk/ranger/warshaper in a one-shot and was very successful as a melee combatant: I took a Vow of Poverty and so I had a very solid AC (32 at level 8), while being a very scary person in melee.
ppirilla 04-13-07, 11:30 PM	Okay, I'm gonna throw this here for lack of a better place to put it: in a fighter/soulknife gestalt, what do you think of taking 4 levels of Psychic Warrior before starting on the Fighter branch? By taking a -1 hit to BAB and pushing back a bonus feat by 1 level, you gain a handful of powers to take advantage of the power points that a soulknife grants through Wild Talent.
jimjam007 04-14-07, 10:10 AM	SwordSage//Warblade is truely a monster to have in combat. The character knows damn near ever manuver there is an can have most of them prepared at the same time too so there is no reason not to use a manuver every round of combat. I'm totally with you and think of adding a bit of Crusader and the dinner is served!( no sauce please...)
Dracomortis 04-15-07, 06:42 PM	I'm playing a hellbred sorcerer in one campaign I'm in, and I can't help but think how awesome a hellbred sorcerer//paladin would be. Balor//sorcerer would also be an interesting combination.
Runepriest 04-15-07, 07:23 PM	Support the Awsomness that is the Soulknife//Fighter
The_Basilisk 04-15-07, 08:45 PM	That, and the character would be dead anyway. Only have a good Ref save. D6 hit die. Light armour. It would be like coming to a fireball fight covered in lamp oil... you're just asking to be cooked. Yeah. :weep: I had that idea. I made a gestalt ninja//rogue. I was all like, "I'm uber! I get sneak attack AND sudden strike!" I got killed in the second encounter by a really lucky 1/2 CR creature....dang.
calronmoonflower 04-15-07, 10:03 PM	The psion/fighter is surprising powerful. The savant (Dragon Compendium)/factotum would work well. You can take the chameleon prestige class add to your versatility. Support the Awsomness that is the Soulknife//Fighter I'll third that motion. The fighter covers the soulknife's two major weakness. Moderate BAB and the lack of feats. Yeah. :weep: I had that idea. I made a gestalt ninja//rogue. I was all like, "I'm uber! I get sneak attack AND sudden strike!" I got killed in the second encounter by a really lucky 1/2 CR creature....dang. In this case sneak attack and sudden strike will not stack. If you read the Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack sidebar you treat sudden strike as equivalent to sneak attack.
crow04 04-16-07, 12:34 AM	[\QuOTE] In this case sneak attack and sudden strike will not stack. If you read the Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack sidebar you treat sudden strike as equivalent to sneak attack.[/QUOTE] true, but sneak attack stacks with it's self
cooperflood 04-16-07, 01:23 AM	While this build is certainly not the most powerful build on this board, I think it would be a lot of fun to play. Wizard 20 // Rogue 13/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Archmage 2 Archmage allows you to convert any touch attack spell into a 60ft Ranged Touch Attack., while Spellwarp Sniper allows you to apply 10d6 Sneak Attack from 60ft to those same spells. Lots of Necromancy Spells work well with this combo, but my favorite is Stop Heart from BoVD. Biggest Weaknesses are low Fort Save and Low AC, but you should be able to avoid most combat and a full Caster Progression makes up for a lot of flaws.
Castegyre 04-16-07, 10:18 AM	I am currently playing a Duskblade//Rogue and really enjoying it. All good saves with good BAB. Only a d8 HPs, but there is something to be said about getting a Sneak Attack/Shocking Grasp combo on someone
goawayugh 04-16-07, 12:29 PM	(Haven't read all the posts, don't know if it has already been stated but...) My BBEG is going to be a Warmage/Fighter. Can't do much outside of combat, but WOW can he do damage!
cooperflood 04-16-07, 04:22 PM	The Ultimate Mage Hunter can be built in Gestalt. Spellthief 20// Scout 4/Ranger 16 By taking Favored Enemy (Arcanists), The Mage Hunter can do 7d6 Skirmish, 5d6 Sneak Attack, +10 Favored Enemy Damage, and Steal a Spell with every hit. He also has three good saves and 19 BAB. Plus many of the spells that an Arcanist attacks him with can be thrown right back at the Mage as an immediate Action.
RDMRBDWRM 04-19-07, 03:16 PM	I just got into a gestalt game, and while shuffling around looking for class combinations, I settled on Crusader//Knight. I've found the classes mesh together very nicely, and the level of tankishness is sick. Let me run down what this combination amounts to: d12 hit die, full bab, good fort and will saves, proficient in simple & martial weapons, all armor types, and all shields. 4 + int modifier class skills, x4 at first level. Adds charisma bonus to will saves, can reroll a single saving throw oince a day, with a successful save can completely negate the effects of attacks that allow for a lesser effect on a successful fort or will save, can expend a use of knight's challenge to make a new saving throw against a mind-affecting spell or ability, and does not automatically fail a saving throw on a roll of one. Gains a shield block bonus to AC against a single opponent. Gains Die Hard as a bonus feat. There's several other defensive features, as well as a lot of effects you can gain from manuevers, but there's one thing that interests me the most, although you need to be 20th level to have every part of the combo. The combined features of the crusader//knight gives you this: Steely Resolve + Diehard + Immortal Fortitude + Loyal Beyond Death + Strike of Righteous Vitality. Now, what this combination creates is a character who is damned near impossible to kill through straight hit point damage, unless you are able to continuously deal very large amounts of damage. There's several auxillary feats and manuevers that make this more potent, which I'll mention at relevant points. Now, first off, diehard is simple enough, allowing the character to continue to act when their hp is reduced to -1 through -9. This isn't much, but it's a nice extra way to survive when brought low on hp, and it prevents having to expend a use of Knight's Challenge. Steely Resolve, at level 20, allows up to 30 points of damage to be pooled into a delayed damage pool, which again helps to hold off some of the damage recieved. Now, the real tankishness comes with the other stuff. The Immortal fortitude stance allows for a saving throw whenever the character's HP is reduced to 0 or less. They get a fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to their negative hp total. If they succeed, they stay alive and conscious with 1 hp. Since they know the DC of the save, the saving throw re-roll once a fay can be put to use here, and not failing saves on a roll of 1 means a crusader//knight with the right setup can take damage that would put them down to -20 or more and be guaranteed to survive it at 1 hp. But of course, this has its limits, and they can only attempt three saving throws before the stance ends. Well, should all this fall through, there's the Knight's Loyal Beyond Death ability, where they can expend one use of their Knight's Challenge ability to be able to continue to act for 1 more round so long as their body is intact, regardless of how low their hit points go. A 20th level knight has at least 10 uses of knight's challenge per day, plus additional uses equal to their charisma modifier. So in the end, the character is pretty much guaranteed to get one more turn no matter how much hp damage they take. And that's where Strike of Righteous Vitality completes the whole combo. By taking a standard action and making a single melee strike against a threatening enemy creature, they gain the effect of a heal spell cast by a 20th-level cleric. This removes any adverse conditions and restores 150 hit points to the character, which could bring them back into a positive hit point total from being well into the negatives. Furious Counterstrike, Fighting Challenge, and Smite are all ways the crusader//knight can ensure they hit with SoRV. The crusader does have a random section of their prepared manuevers granted during the battle, but taking extra granted manuever at 1st level means that they'll get the manuever very shortly, if they don't have it. Manuevers such as revitalizing strike and rallying strike can also heal hit points, and although they don't recover nearly as much hp, they can be useful holdouts until SoRV is granted again (plus, with all three, you're guaranteed at least on manuever for a healing effect). All in all, I think it's a really mighty combination, though it really only shows up at 20th level, so it wouldn't see much use. Still, thinking of the abuse the character could take with this setup is mind-boggling. Obviously, they can still be killed by any sort of instant death effect, or anything that kills without dealing damage, but dealing enough pure damage to kill a crusader//knight is quite a feat, unless you can prevent them from hitting any enemies.
Krusk 04-19-07, 04:20 PM	a cleric//knight would be good too. Force the enemy to deal all the damage to you, and then heal it right away. plus all martial weapons, armor and shields. d12 hit die good fort will charisma common stat. -knights challenge and turning cleric spells, knight meleeing ability. full BAB bad low reflex..... i think thats it. slightly MAD, wis cha, and melee ability scores, but its been proven enough a cleric can melee if need be using buffs.
jonboy 04-19-07, 06:52 PM	I'm currently running a rogue/ranger w/ archery spec. Almost everything is a class skill!! If you can use the eberron stuff, a monk/paladin is fun if you can get your hands on a holy avenger w/ whirling steel strike (flurry of holy avenger ftw!) For shear mutilation I like a 1/2 giant fighter/barbarian wielding a great falchion. Throw in powerful charge from eberron for extra fun and well tacking fighter onto just about everything is usually pretty fun
jonboy 04-19-07, 07:01 PM	In this case sneak attack and sudden strike will not stack. If you read the Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack sidebar you treat sudden strike as equivalent to sneak attack. sorry, wrong. you treat sneak attack and sudden strike as the same for PrC and feat qualifications only, otherwise you can do both as long as you meet all the requirements (i.e. target denied dex bonus to AC) All of this come from "Complete Adventurer" pg 8
calronmoonflower 04-20-07, 03:03 AM	sorry, wrong. you treat sneak attack and sudden strike as the same for PrC and feat qualifications only, otherwise you can do both as long as you meet all the requirements (i.e. target denied dex bonus to AC) All of this come from "Complete Adventurer" pg 8 Remember that we are talking about gestalt characters here. A strait rogue/ninja will not do +20d6 on a sudden attack at level 20.
Krusk 04-20-07, 09:41 AM	They do stack in gestalt. The only reason it isnt amazingly good, is that this is the only thing you will be able to do. It sort of defeats the purpose of gestalt. Im a sneaky guy who hits hard in weak points, now i hit harder? Most other gestalt characters are casters in full plate, or turning into bears and singing. a gestalt rogue//ninja 20 will be doing 10d6 sneak attack and 10d6 sudden strike so long as both requirements are met. of course the entire system is a houserule so a dm could see fit to say no they don't. As per the rules in the Unearthed Arcana, they do in fact stack. Think of it this way, would a fighter//psionic warrior have to choose which class they got bonus feats from? or a sorcerer//wizard have to choose which spell system to use?
Mortius 04-20-07, 10:21 AM	I'd have to say that the sorc/paladin build with dragon disciple is pretty badass
jonboy 04-20-07, 01:24 PM	I'd have to say that the sorc/paladin build with dragon disciple is pretty badass It wouldn't be too bad, but you would need to load up on magic items to offset the horrid AC you would have since armor messes up your casting. But the 7 bonus spells would be nice, but I think you would need to choose between the sorc or pally spell list since they are handled separately. And even then you would want to wait until you start getting the real power spells so you can tack those bonus spells on the good stuff.
Lakaniss 04-20-07, 01:48 PM	Hi, i never been able to play in a Gestalt game but it look very interesting. I just though about a combination. Swashbuckler3/Fighter/Dervish // Monster Race/ Rogue or Monster race / Class from ToB (never used Tob, im lasy and dont want to read it cause unlike other book where i can only read the feat and spell, i have plenty to read, i know its awesome though) This build would dish out heavy damage! The monster race just improve your stats and maybe give you nice ability (4 arms, someone?) and whit either rogue or ToB class, it add some power to your high BA and nice Dance of death!
RDMRBDWRM 04-21-07, 11:07 PM	It wouldn't be too bad, but you would need to load up on magic items to offset the horrid AC you would have since armor messes up your casting. But the 7 bonus spells would be nice, but I think you would need to choose between the sorc or pally spell list since they are handled separately. And even then you would want to wait until you start getting the real power spells so you can tack those bonus spells on the good stuff. The AC thing is true, but if you take Draconic Heritage as a sorcerer, you can then replace the heavy armor proficiency of the pally with Dragonscale Husk from Dragon Magic, which nets you a very competent armor class bonus along with energy resistance, and no spell failure.
Kilawpilath 04-25-07, 11:36 PM	I'm not sure if the following would work out but I thought it might be interesting. Half-Giant (+1 LA) 19 Barbarian//9 Psychic Warrior/10 Frenzied Berserker Or Psychic Warrior to 19//Barbarian to 9/Frenzied Berserker to 10. Another one.. Half-Orc Barbarian 20//Psychic Warrior 5/Thrall Herd 10/Orc Warlord 5 Oh and any Monk// or Soulknife// or anything with Monk or Soulknife can't ever use Vow of Poverity in my games. ^_^
Vaelan 04-27-07, 04:56 AM	Hmm.... a warblade//swordsage/Master of Nine sounds interesting. Have manuevers from every single discipline! Stance Mastery, all ninth-level maneuvers readied at the same time, and three eighth-level stances is pretty nice...
Runepriest 04-28-07, 06:51 PM	Oh and any Monk// or Soulknife// or anything with Monk or Soulknife can't ever use Vow of Poverity in my games. ^_^ BoED is strange in my opinion.
Holy_Beholder 04-28-07, 07:25 PM	Soulknife/Warblade
Warpmind 04-30-07, 05:08 PM	Here's a really *nasty* gestalt for you... Ninja/Rogue. Str 18 and a scythe... Lucky max roll on a crit? Um... 50 damage flat, as a 1st-level character... (8d4, 1d6 Sneak Attack, 1d6 Sudden Strike, and +6 damage for a two-handed weapon... *Twitch*) As for the Mystic Theurge in a Gestalt build... I see no reason the MT should be banned for Gestalts... HOWEVER one cannot gain caster levels from the core class AND the MT PrC at the same time, hence while levelling as an MT, you need to take a noncasting class for a while... Fighters're a nifty bunch; Weapon Focus and Specialization: Rays and Orbs, anyone?
Ectoplasmoid 04-30-07, 07:04 PM	UA specifically bans Theurge-type prestige classes when playing gestalt. Anything that goes together to grant a full BAB,all good saves, and something else is generally going to be decent. For instance. a Soulknife/Fighter, Duskblade/Rogue, or Barbarian/Wizard. Also, Illithid15/Illithid Savant 5//Ranger6/Illithid Savant5/Illithid Body Tamer 9 might legitimately be called "Broken Beyond Belief." An alternative build might be Half-Illithid 4/Ranger3/Swashbuckler3/Savant10//Hexblade6/Illithid Body Tamer 10/Swashbuckler3. Intersperse as desired in order to fill out saves. You will kick your opponents apart.
Warpmind 04-30-07, 07:54 PM	Actually, UA doesn't specifically prohibit the Mystic Theurge... or the Arcane Trickster, or the Eldritch Knight. The exact wording of the text is: "A gestalt character can't combine two prestige classes at any level, although it's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge and eldritch knight - should be prohibited if you're using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what's already a high-powered variant. Because it's possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the DM is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it's available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." The rules as written indicate that such prestige classes *should not* be used - a milder turn of phrase than an outright ban. As such, it is, in its entirety, a subject for DM discretion. I, for one, would permit it in a gestalt campaign - under the perfectly crystal clear understanding that *everyone* would be allowed similar prestigious builds, if they so desired. But then, I run campaigns where the characters conform more to concept builds than powerbuilds... (Meaning: "Ooooh, that's a cool ability; bleedin' useless, but look how appropriate it is!" more often than "Ooooh, that's so powerful, it must be mine!")
Krusk 04-30-07, 08:17 PM	I would allow, as dm, MT and similar classes if they were on the same side. cleric 4/wizard4/MT 5//fighter 13 or something similar, but otherwise i would probably not.
bahamut920 06-02-07, 10:02 PM	The hybrid-class rule isn't a gamebreaker. All you have to do is rule that no class can have an effective caster level (either from the class itself or from class+PrC combos) greater than the total number of Hit Dice in those classes. For example, you can't take Wizard 20//Rogue 10/Arcane Trickster 10. Well, you could, but your wizard caster level would be capped at 20, because that's the number of Hit Dice the character has. In a similar vein, a Duskblade 10/Abjurant Champion 5/Duelist 5//Wizard 15/Archmage 5 would only be able to apply 5 caster levels from each PrC to each base class, and his duskblade caster level would be a maximum of 15 (10 duskblade Hit Dice, and 5 from - most likely - abjurant champion).
Vaelan 06-02-07, 11:07 PM	The hybrid-class rule isn't a gamebreaker. All you have to do is rule that no class can have an effective caster level (either from the class itself or from class+PrC combos) greater than the total number of Hit Dice in those classes. That is already covered by the identical class features rule.
Alpha_Moose 06-02-07, 11:46 PM	That is already covered by the identical class features rule. I don't know. It's kinda ambiguous there. Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. You could probably read it that getting the same thing twice is pointless, like if two different classes both granted Alertness or proficiency with bows. But if the abilities can normally stack, such as Sneak Attack, you get both. So if I was a Rogue/Barbarian 4 I would already have Improved Uncanny Dodge. You could probably rule either way.
Vaelan 06-03-07, 03:14 AM	I don't know. It's kinda ambiguous there. No, it really isn't. But if the abilities can normally stack, such as Sneak Attack, you get both. No, you don't. The rule is quite explicit in what happens when two classes share the same class feature. Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class. Two classes share the Sneak Attack class feature. You gain Sneak Attack at the rate of the faster class. So if I was a Rogue/Barbarian 4 I would already have Improved Uncanny Dodge. You could probably rule either way. I suppose you could rule differently if you decide to completely ignore and directly contradict the text. I don't see how this is terribly relevant since we're discussing the actual rules with some level of objectivity. Shall we just go around saying "ask your DM" in every thread because, technically, nothing we say matters because a DM can rule however he wants on whatever basis he wants?
Alpha_Moose 06-03-07, 08:42 PM	My point was that they should have mentioned another ability or something. As that is read you could say that you can't get both Sublime Cord spellcasting and a Sorcerer spellcasting, because they're the same thing (Sublime Cord says that it casts spells as a Sorcerer). Anyways, it's already a variant rule. Making a slight variant of a variant isn't that crazy.
OrganicAngelAlexiel 06-04-07, 07:30 AM	Lich Monk 18//Cleric 18, grab ability focus (paralysis) and improved paralysis. Flurry of Paralysis. Also, take the smiting cleric variant from UA, so you have no turning but gain smiting. (Have as NPC, and totally kicks part of 4 levels higher than it) and if you really want the turning, archlich instead of lich, so you got turning as cleric of your level, and animate dead at will, and turn immunity. Fighter18//Warmage8/Elemental Savant (fire). Grab searing spell so nothing is trully immune to fire if needs be. Grab bloodline of fire (Forgotten realms), elemantal casting (fire), and prepare to nuke everything, in FULL-PLATE (with battle caster feat). Knight/Paladin. d12, prime base attack, fort and will, mount, etc. Fighter/Monk, 6 attacks at 20th level anyone? three at full. Druid 20//fighter 16/warshaper4. Truly scary. Scout 17//rogue 7/Shadowdancer10, and you gotta grab that full spring attack tree. and everything that adds to hide :P Halfdragon half ogre Fighter20//Barbarian10/warhulk10. HULK SMASH!
Kextor 06-05-07, 01:52 AM	OrganicAngelAlexiel beat me to it :( <sigh> Anyway, I was going to suggest a Warmage//Fighter gestalt. However, I was going to throw in 2 lvls of paladin for the all-important CHA synergy of Divine Grace for a final build of Warmage20//Paladin2/Fighter18. Weapon Supremacy works good as a capstone ability. Also, you may or may not want to take Battle Caster and simply wait for mithril full plate. Or I thought that until Races of Stone came to mind. Mmmmm...adamantine Mountain Plate. Or adamantine Battle Plate. Yum. OrganicAngelAlexiel, I do like your "Revenge is a dish best served HOT!!!" figher/warmage build though :)
ekeeb 06-05-07, 10:06 AM	well in a game i played the DM broke down templates into classes, so that allowed me to gestalt, i was playing a human/weretiger/monk until 6th level when i took the warshaper class for 5 levels and attacked with 6 arms (it states any natural weapons, it doesnt specify how many at once) although i will be making a thread asking about this though as a person in our group wants to replicate that. Ekeeb :D
Darth Sephiroth 06-05-07, 08:58 PM	Barbarian//Chaos Monk is a truely nasty combination to deal with. Full BAB and Saves. D12 HD's, Monk abilities, and Rage. Add frenzied Berzerker into the mix and run for your lives.
Dracomortis 06-05-07, 09:03 PM	Barbarian//Chaos Monk is a truely nasty combination to deal with. Full BAB and Saves. D12 HD's, Monk abilities, and Rage. Add frenzied Berzerker into the mix and run for your lives. Frenzied berserker has a tendency to elicit that reaction.
Darth Sephiroth 06-07-07, 07:11 PM	True, but the combo lets people pretend that they are playing Saiyans if they want to...
Avatar of Kokusho 06-08-07, 02:01 PM	Favored soul/Paladin: Hey, spells, all good saves, and charisma bonus to those all-good saves, too?? Ouchies. Swordsage/Warblade: anyone who allowed this one has taken leave of their sanity. Cleric/Monk: Touch spells and unarmed strikes= tasty.
koiulpoi 06-10-07, 06:45 PM	Something about Monk//Rogue sounds sick to me. Yes, a lot of things about it suck, but if you end up Epic, take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting and have 10 sneak attacks per round before haste.
archerpwr 06-10-07, 06:58 PM	Favored soul/Paladin: Hey, spells, all good saves, and charisma bonus to those all-good saves, too?? Ouchies. Swordsage/Warblade: anyone who allowed this one has taken leave of their sanity. Cleric/Monk: Touch spells and unarmed strikes= tasty. I will do you one better: favored soul 7/ sacred exorcist 1/ prestige pally 3/ X 9// sorc 19/ favored soul 1 play a kobold for max effectiveness
MagicMouth 06-10-07, 06:58 PM	There´s something about the combination Beguiler//Dread Necromancer that I find captivating. Granted, from a optimization perspective it probably sucks, but I like the many skills you get as well as the type of spells and special abilities - never really liked pure, unfocused spellcasters like Wizard, Cleric etc. No, I prefer a more restricted spell list in return for more special abilities or skills.
Dracomortis 06-10-07, 07:20 PM	You know, I've been thinking lately. Gestalt might just make a vampire build viable as a player character.
Warpmind 06-10-07, 07:47 PM	You know, I've been thinking lately. Gestalt might just make a vampire build viable as a player character. Gestalt is *great* for monster builds. (Refer the Monster campaign I'm running - the Rakshasa, the Succubus and the Imp would all be woefully lagging behind in most everything if we didn't Gestalt it...) But regardless - very nasty Puncture Fu-build I discovered: On one side of the gestalt, go Swashbuckler... On the other side, go Rogue 6 levels, then swap to PrC Duelist... The Duelist's abilities, by and large, are *similar* to the Swashbuckler's... but not the same. The only abilities that do not stack are Grace (Which means the character gets the +2 Grace bonus to Reflex saves at 10th instead of 11th level, but is still up to +3 at level 20) and Acrobatic Charge (Obtained on 7th level, per the Swashbuckler class, and ignored at 6th level as Duelist). This combo gains the Int bonus to damage and AC, can deflect arrows with a rapier or similar weapon, deals Strength and Constitution damage on Criticals, doubles his/her flanking bonus to Attack and so forth and so on... Pure puncture-fu, and very easy to attain as well...
Braekor Dragonfang 06-10-07, 08:20 PM	Monk 20 / Human Afflicted Werecamel 5 / Psychic Warrior 5 / Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 10 Unarmed Size increase 2d10 + 1 Hybrid size + 1 Improved Natural Attack + 1 Empty Hand Mastery + 2 Initiate + 2 Double Expansion final count 14d10 there's probably better, but oh well
Lawkeeper 06-11-07, 08:14 AM	The hybrid-class rule isn't a gamebreaker. All you have to do is rule that no class can have an effective caster level (either from the class itself or from class+PrC combos) greater than the total number of Hit Dice in those classes. Fully agreed, that's how I rule that. The similar rule that I enforce is to limit sneak attack/sudden strike to a 1d6/two character levels (rounded up). OTOH, on that side, if they happen to have a useless sudden strike because they've chosen a full ninja/rogue combination for the fun of it, I'd allow them to swap D6s for feats (in essence, the UA feat-rogue variant). Now, with that in mind, I'm surprised nobody has proposed the following : druid10/arcane hierophant10//wizard 3/cleric 1/mystic theurge 6/cleric 10. Applying the MT's divine spellcasting to cleric, this brings 20th lvl druid / 17th lvl cleric / 19th lvl wizard spellcastings, with a full 20th level wildshape, a 20th lvl companion/13th familiar arcane companion, divine metamagic a plenty (no feat is needed for the PrC's prerequisite - you only need one feat to get an additional favored class to avoid XP penalty). As weak points, we still have only medium BAB (nothing to worry, wildshape doesn't give iterative attacks and you make for the reduced attack bonuses with higher strength or ranged touch attacks), bad reflex save (but you have the spells to improve it and/or make it irrelevant with multiple protection from energy spells) and especially MAD : Int for wizard, Wis for cleric and druid spellcasting, and charisma for DMM. But if you allow the paladin variants from Dragon, you can have : cloistered cleric1/druid3/incarnate*2/druid4/arcane hierophant10//sorcerer1/cloistered cleric2/mystic theurge**7/cloistered cleric10. * incarnate paladin, not the MoI's incarnate base class. ** you qualify with the Precocious Apprentice feat applied to sorcerer. What do you get ? - 17th (or up to 19th) level druid spellcasting, giving 9th lvl spells (Wis) - 18th level sorcerer spellcasting, giving 9th lvl spells (Cha) - 20th (or down to 18th if applying your MT divine increase to druid progression during the two level in which you take incarnate levels) level cleric spellcasting, giving 9th lvl spells (Wis) - 17th lvl wildshape - divine grace on all ST (Cha) - 13th level turn undead (Cha) - divine metamagic (Cha) - 17th lvl animal companion/11th lvl familiar arcane companion... want an Int11 dire tiger that you can speak with and use to aggressively deliver touch spells ? - truly exceptional Will save (+18 base, using partial bases, as should be automatic with multiclass), very good Fortitude save (+16 base), weak Reflex save (only +6) ... all sent through the roof with divine grace (can you really have a lower than 30 charisma ?), especially the Will save (+18 base +Wis +Cha, when Cha/Wis determine your spellcasting ?) - three domains, including Knowledge - spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally spells - spontaneous casting of cure or inflict spells - 13th level lore feature - ability to cast arcane spells in druidic armor without failure... for example a dragonhide (a +5 wild, deep, glamered, ethereal, woodwalk, empyreal dragonhide full-plate for example, for a price under 200.000gp, but you'd need an armor proficiency feat) All spells and DMM may be used in wildshape with Natural Spell. Arcane Strike lets you sacrifice up to 9th lvl spells on attacks while in wildshape, and you have all the spells needed to buff yourself with numerous bear/bull/cat/owl/etc spells and other boosters plus a wildshape-compatible super-armor. You really depend on only two stats (Charisma and Wisdom), Intelligence only helping you to acquire some more skills (you don't need that many of them, and you already have a base of 6 skill points per level for a total of 13 levels) and with your lore ability, while of the physical stats only Constitution is actually helpful for your hit points. Off course, you still have weaknesses : - weak base reflex save (cf supra) - still a medium BAB :so outside of a wildshape you're not a tank - hopefully in fact, as that's not the focus of the class - you need to be a multiclass-happy race, be it human, half-elf or better yet illumian (with interesting sigils) - you need the RoD or UA feat giving an extra favored class (you need both druid and cleric as favored classes) - you need Precocious Apprentice (CArc) to both qualify earlier for MT and avoid the XP penalty ; with Natural Spell, Arcane Strike and Extra Favored Class, this only leaves you three normal feats, plus possibly a bonus racial feat and/or two flaw-feats for a maximum of five/six DMM feats.
deviknyte 06-11-07, 01:05 PM	I just thought I'd point out that this thread is full of the most broken, evil, and stupid toons ever. And I hate any GM that thinks about allowing it (althought I use gesalt toons on my PCs all the time)
goawayugh 06-11-07, 03:00 PM	I just thought I'd point out that this thread is full of the most broken, evil, and stupid toons ever. And I hate any GM that thinks about allowing it (althought I use gesalt toons on my PCs all the time) This is what I hate. Never use any class/PrC/feat/spell against your PC's if you won't let them use it against your NPC's.
starfire311 06-11-07, 04:29 PM	I just thought I'd point out that this thread is full of the most broken, evil, and stupid toons ever. And I hate any GM that thinks about allowing it (althought I use gesalt toons on my PCs all the time) Toon? How does DnD have anything to do with a toon? PCs are not toons.
bahamut920 06-12-07, 01:02 AM	Just thought up another nasty Duskblade build: Duskblade 20//Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion (CM) 5/Iaijutsu Master (OA) 10 Along the lines of the Duskblade//Rogue, but somewhat nastier. Iaijutsu Focus is an Oriental Adventures skill that essentially gives the ninja's sudden strike ability, with the extra dice of damage based upon the check result. The check is part of the attack - you have to be drawing your weapon, however. Iaijutsu Master gives Int to AC when unarmored (and not in the half-assed Duelist way, either), Cha to initiative and Iaijutsu Focus damage (per die; so if you can swing a high Cha with this build, go for it - you can probably sac Con a little, because you can do so much damage), two attacks on a standard action with a katana, and a free suprise round if you start in melee with your opponent. Couple with swift invisibility and the abjurant champion's AC bonus from protection spells and the wizard's mage armor and shield spells, and you have a high-AC build that can dish out tons of damage. You pretty much have to make Iaijutsu Focus a class skill (such as the Cosmopolitan Feat from FRCS), though. The DCs on it pretty high.
Lawkeeper 06-12-07, 02:35 AM	Just thought up another nasty Duskblade build: Duskblade 20//Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion (CM) 5/Iaijutsu Master (OA) 10 But you have a redundant strength for 14 levels : full BAB. Four levels of fighter and ten levels of Iaijutsu Master lose half of their main benefit, as the duskblade half already gives you the best BAB possible. I'd rather push the IM on the duskblade half and augment the spellcasting of the other half with more levels of wizard or beguiler (both using Int for spells).
deviknyte 06-12-07, 11:23 AM	Toon = character. Also if you have your PC's fight anything with a CR instead of a ECL than your already using something they can't have. CR20 dragon different than ECL20 pc. Likewise with any roleplaying element you've ever used. Curses, artifacts, story magic, forced monologue, box text (wait til the scene is over to act), low level npc's with political power.
Johnny_Angel 06-12-07, 11:33 AM	I'm surprised nobody has mentioned these: druid/cleric or druid/wizard (if they have, I missed it) not sure if this would be broken, but I think a knight/cleric might be cool...sort of like an uber paladin d12 hd, cleric powers, heavy armor
Lawkeeper 06-12-07, 12:27 PM	CR20 dragon different than ECL20 pc. Sure it is. CR is all about how much power can be used in an encounter. ECL is about how much power can be used in the course of a full day/adventure. It's only logic that CR is different from ECL, and that you face your PCs with equivalent foes using their CR rather than their ECL. For example, in a CR what matters is the max power of their most powerful spells. In ECL, what really matters is how often they can use their powers. One of the reasons a balor's CR is lower than it's ECL is that his spell-like abilities are usable at will. At the same CR, a wizard or sorcerer has access to more potent spells, but is limited in the number of them per day ; not so for the balor. Another example : didn't you see that a warlock is much limited in how many different powers it has compared to a sorcerer of the same level ? That's part of the deal to balance them : one gets fewer different abilities usable at will, the other gets a more limited number of uses but of more varied natures. Also, remember that one CR X creature is meant to face a group of four ECL X heroes. Where the system is lacking, is that it counts NPCs at their ECL rather than counting an ad-hoc CR, but even then you can see that the NPC is only meant to face that one encounter in the day, while the heroes have to face (on design) four of them. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned these: druid/cleric or druid/wizard (if they have, I missed it) I did. Sort of. Cleric/Druid/Wizard or Sorcerer. Look six posts above yours.:)
bahamut920 06-12-07, 06:48 PM	But you have a redundant strength for 14 levels : full BAB. Four levels of fighter and ten levels of Iaijutsu Master lose half of their main benefit, as the duskblade half already gives you the best BAB possible. I'd rather push the IM on the duskblade half and augment the spellcasting of the other half with more levels of wizard or beguiler (both using Int for spells). True. But where would you push the IM levels? At Level 10, to get the most out of the PrC, or at Level 14+, to get Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) from the duskblade? Also, that adds more feats to a pretty feat-intensive build (You have to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your CL at least two below your character level - Duskblade's Spell Power makes up for some loss of CL, but not enough to compensate for 10 PrC levels, and Duskblades need CL because most of their best spells are affected by SR).
Lawkeeper 06-13-07, 06:09 AM	True. But where would you push the IM levels? At Level 10, to get the most out of the PrC, or at Level 14+, to get Arcane Channeling (Full Attack) from the duskblade? Also, that adds more feats to a pretty feat-intensive build (You have to take Practiced Spellcaster to keep your CL at least two below your character level - Duskblade's Spell Power makes up for some loss of CL, but not enough to compensate for 10 PrC levels, and Duskblades need CL because most of their best spells are affected by SR). True, I forgot the full Arcane Channeling came at 14th level. However, remember you don't need to take all levels of a class on the same "side" of the build (as a matter of fact, there're no "sides"). So, if you have four redundant levels, it's better than 14. Aslo, practiced spellcaster loses part of its utility if you have a more complete spellcasting.
KalTorak 06-16-07, 06:12 PM	What do you all think of a Warblade/Sorc? im not keen on the gesalt set-up, but understand the basics of it. and thought that a heavy melee combined with spell casting abilities would be great.
starfire311 06-16-07, 06:35 PM	Toon = character. I dont know why, but this bugs the crap out of me... toon does not equal character. toon is short for cartoon. people have started refering to characters in MMOs as toons becuase they resemble cartoon characters, beause they are animated. I do not have a problem with the word toon, I use it occasionally, I do have a problem with using the term incorectly. That would be like saying Mathew Broderick's toon in "Ferris Beuller's Day Off" was Ferris. There were no toons in that movie, at least any that I can remember.
Lawkeeper 06-17-07, 07:59 AM	What do you all think of a Warblade/Sorc? im not keen on the gesalt set-up, but understand the basics of it. and thought that a heavy melee combined with spell casting abilities would be great. Well, it's not perfect : - warblade depends on Int, sorcerer depends on Cha : better use a spellcasting class that uses Int too - sorcerer is subject to arcane failure chances, so either you have to be patient until you get a PrC removing or reducing those failures, or you go unarmored A very good candidate for that kind of build is the beguiler : Int-based spontaneous spellcasting, ability to cast while in light armor (upgradable to heavier forms of armor with the Battle Caster feat - Complete Arcane), feint-improving abilities (the swift feint with the Improved Feint feat is not limited to cloaked casting). And moreover the spell list is useful for a melee fighter : mirror image, mage armor, color spray, displacement, invisibility, haste, freedom of movement, and many other. This would make a very good single-attribute dependant character.
Dracomortis 06-17-07, 01:17 PM	Marshal 1 / Soulknife 19 // Truenamer 20 Advantages: All good saves except at 1st level, but depending on the DM the marshal level may create uneven stacking between the soulknife and truenamer levels. d8 Hit Dice at level 1, and a d10 from there on. Soulknife adds much needed melee potential to the truenamer. The marshal's motivate intelligence aura adds to your Truespeak check, which allows you to boost it with both headbands of intellect and cloaks of charisma. Disadvantages: All three classes only have a 3/4 base attack bonus (again, this may create uneven stacking, which would only leave you down 1 point at 20th level). While nice, the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) from the marshal level will rarely come into play, as neither of the other two classes has it as a class skill.
Orion Polaris 06-18-07, 10:18 PM	How is the Lurk/Rogue combination? I'm running a gestalt campaign and it strikes me as something that is going to be very overpowered...
Crimson_Concerto 06-18-07, 10:57 PM	How is the Lurk/Rogue combination? I'm running a gestalt campaign and it strikes me as something that is going to be very overpowered... Nope, most of the stuff you get from both sides is exactly the same.
DrakePandor 06-20-07, 10:41 AM	In the vein of most broken (although quite advised against) :rolleyes: Dragonfire Adept 3//Warlock 3 Cleric 3// Wizard 3 Eldritch Disciple 10// Eldritch Theurge 10 Cleric 4 // Wizard 4 Edited: will need to have level order moved around as I forgot about not having 2 prestige classes at once...but I am too tired right now Cleric domain - 1 being undeath (bonus 4 turn/day) Feats: Entangling Breath Draconic Aura: Fast Healing Draconic Aura: DR, Energy Shield, or Energy Resistance (gets boosted with char level due to Dragon touched from Dragonfire Adept) Double Draconic Aura: to have both up at once Other feats: grab an initiat feat or any draconic feat since you count as a sorc Eldritch disciple for dragonfire adv and Eldritch Theurge for Warlock Benefits: 8 warlock invocations 6 dragonfire adept invocations 9th level cleric spells 9th level wizard spells 6d6 eldritch blast 6d6 breath weapon BAB: 12/7/2 (use edritch glaive for attacks so only have to hit touch AC) d8 HD throughout DR 6/cold iron +2 Natural Armour AC Turn as 17th lvl cleric Fiendish resilience 2 Gift of Divine Patron - Healing blast, others as you choose Timeless Body Good Fort/Will - low reflex can be accounted for from an invocation (which you have no lack of) Spellblast Eldritch Spellweave Greatreach Blast Plus good crafting abilities from Deceive item and wizard levels
Aktariel 06-21-07, 11:31 PM	I don't recall anything like this build: something to the order of Duskblade 20//Cleric 14/Geomancer 6 Spamming Harm, as as been mentioned, but casting in Full Plate. Admittedly not-terribly optimized [as Dusk already gives you medium armor proficiency] but hey. I'm new at this optimizing bit. EDIT: How about Duskblade 15/Abjurant Champion 5//Cleric 14/Geomancer 6? Can anyone help me out with optimizing this? I'd love to add RKV to it somewhere, while still keeping at least 13 levels of duskblade... EDIT 2: How does Crusader 2/Duskblade 13/Geomancer 5//Cleric 13/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7 work out? BAB +20, Cleric CL 20, Duskblade CL 16, and IL 11 [?].
JolanthusTrel 07-08-07, 04:21 AM	While not exactly broken, It could be used for conversions...Bard\\Cleric... the Ultimate god rocker\gospel singer. "Now King Joe, sit down and listen to this song I've prepared, and while you listen to it, I'd like you to think about the merits of converting to Fharlanghn!"
Xorial 07-08-07, 02:11 PM	A potentially broken one, from the point of view that both classes compliment each other so well without any loss or overlap, is the bard/swashbuckler. As a gestalt, you get all good saves, d10s, and very complimentary class abilities.
Manyfist 07-08-07, 06:37 PM	Warblade/Swordsage/Master of the 9. Full BAB All good saves Tons of Stances, Maneuvers...etc. Bonus Feats Int to attacks..etc. Wis to AC I say its a winner. Next to winner is the: Cleric/Druid and Artificer/Wizard, Druid/Wizard could work if you wildshaped into something with hands.
Alpha_Moose 07-08-07, 07:16 PM	Warblade/Swordsage/Master of the 9. You can also have 3 stances active at once.
claypigeons 07-08-07, 08:53 PM	Druid/Wizard could work if you wildshaped into something with hands. Or you could just get Natural Spell. Unless it's in the Errata, the feat itself doesn't specify Druid spells, only that you can complete somatic and verbal components while in wildshape.
Warpmind 07-08-07, 09:25 PM	Here's a nasty... Fighter 8/Swashbuckler 12/Wizard 20 Using the Alternate Class Ability for Fighters from Complete Mage, you can hop, skip and bounce around in Light Armor with no Arcane Spell Failure... and you get your ever-lovin' Int bonus on damage, on spells per day, et cetera... Strength is for wusses. ;)
Krusk 07-09-07, 01:43 AM	druid/wizard, that wildshapes into a dire gorilla. Watch out. Also I think the FAQ actually says natural spell works for all spells, not just druid ones. IT was either there or ask wizards.
Vaelan 07-09-07, 02:21 AM	druid/wizard, that wildshapes into a dire gorilla. Watch out. I don't know if you've ever played Gestalt before, but economy of actions is more important than slapping two "powerful" classes together.
Krusk 07-09-07, 06:39 PM	I don't know if you've ever played Gestalt before, but economy of actions is more important than slapping two "powerful" classes together. I play gestalt a lot actually. I was refering to the post by manyfist. "druid/wizard can work if you wildshape into something with hands". Combined with the fact that a dire gorilla is awsome. I dont know if you've use the message boards before, but reading the previous posts and keeping them in mind is more important than calling someone out.
Dracomortis 07-10-07, 11:38 AM	I play gestalt a lot actually. I was refering to the post by manyfist. "druid/wizard can work if you wildshape into something with hands". Combined with the fact that a dire gorilla is awsome. I dont know if you've use the message boards before, but reading the previous posts and keeping them in mind is more important than calling someone out. Pwned.
Johnny_Angel 07-10-07, 11:55 AM	I've yet to try it, but I've often wondered how well a monk/warlock would work out.
rironin 07-10-07, 11:56 AM	It's not broken, but one gestalt PC I'd loooove to try out is a Fighter/Rogue, with the UA Rogue variant that swaps out Sneak Attack for Fighter bonus feats :) 22 bonus feats FTW!
OrganicAngelAlexiel 07-10-07, 01:20 PM	Human Fighter20/monk20 take vow of pov, and you get get away with not taking any other vows. get saint template. Additional wisdom bonus to AC as insight, plus permanent Magic Circle vs Evil, and a fast healing 10 at that point. Nothing will hit you, and if it would, it is probably evil and you will beat the living **** out of it.
ChordNohVarr 07-11-07, 10:14 AM	Try this one--- Side 1 Monk1/SoulKnife13/Illumine Soul 5/SoulBow 1 Side 2 Erudite Feats 1) Monastic Training (SoulKnife) 3) Tashalatora 6) Convert Spell to Power (Erudite feat) 9) Monk's Spade Mind Blade (finesse high damage weapon) 12)Point Blank Shot 15) Erudite Mantle (Conflict Mantle) 18) Leadership Decent BAB, Flurry, Full Unarmed damage, built-in "magic weapon" and distance attack that cost zero PP and access to arcane buff spells for AC (Mage Armor) and weapons (Mighty Wallop for unarmed, Blood Blade) plus Positive energy attacks and undead bane weapons make a helluva slayer.
ChordNohVarr 07-11-07, 10:25 AM	I was also looking for an 18-lvl build for an Eladrin who already casts as a 12th lvl Cleric, the Firre from Planar Handbook
Kilawpilath 07-11-07, 03:50 PM	Noticed no one really posted this but there's always Marshal 20//Rogue 10/Nightsong Infiltrator (or Enforcer) 10 Then there's always: Marshal 20//Monk 10/Nightsong Infiltrator (or Enforcer) 10
MagicMouth 07-11-07, 04:52 PM	It's not broken, but one gestalt PC I'd loooove to try out is a Fighter/Rogue, with the UA Rogue variant that swaps out Sneak Attack for Fighter bonus feats :) 22 bonus feats FTW! Actually, I think this is one of the cases when the Bonus Feat Progressions would overlap, not stack. This is not always the case, I think, but seeing as the Feats and the levels you get them at are exactly the same...
rironin 07-11-07, 05:39 PM	Actually, I think this is one of the cases when the Bonus Feat Progressions would overlap, not stack. This is not always the case, I think, but seeing as the Feats and the levels you get them at are exactly the same...Seeing as how it's a UA variant, I say no holds barred. The text in UA is super short, so whether or not you interpret the bonus feats as a feature gained by the Rogue (in which case, I don't see why two bonus feats from different classes - even if their lists were the same - wouldn't stack with gestalt) variant or whether you consider them fighter bonus feats is up to you. I certainly wouldn't disallow it if I ever ran a gestalt game (haven't yet) - this would be the least of my problems. From a RAW standpoint though, why not? A gestalt fighter/ranger could gain two bonus feats from the fighter list at the same level, and there would be no stacking problems. Same with ranger/scout, etc, etc. The UA rogue variant gains bonus feats just like a fighter, but I don't think bonus feats should be termed an "identical class feature" by any means.
Krusk 07-11-07, 07:04 PM	it does say you gain bonus feats as a fighter. So i dont think they would stack.
eamon 07-12-07, 12:09 PM	You're giving up sneak attack to gain these feats, right? I don't think it's broken. At all. Sure identical class features don't stack, but that why I would suggest that you don't take identical feats in both chains. Then they're not identical... ;-) Seriously, I don't see the problem. Feats are just placeholders for "insert your ability here" things. Unless you gain the same feat twice, they shouldn't need to overlap, because you are gaining different abilities! And since some people play with double feats even without gestalt, I'ld think that this isn't a real problem. I'ld be more worried about the UA variant of fighter, which grants extra sneak damage. Sneak attack damage from multiple sources generally stacks, so would that mean a horrifying amount of sneak attack damage? Esp. when combined with a bunch of other classes which also gain sneak, generally at first level? I could easily image you gaining more than 1d6 sneak per level, which is... pretty powerful considering you also have full bab progression ;).
MagicMouth 07-12-07, 12:14 PM	You're giving up sneak attack to gain these feats, right? I don't think it's broken. At all. Sure identical class features don't stack, but that why I would suggest that you don't take identical feats in both chains. Then they're not identical... ;-) Seriously, I don't see the problem. Feats are just placeholders for "insert your ability here" things. Unless you gain the same feat twice, they shouldn't need to overlap, because you are gaining different abilities! And since some people play with double feats even without gestalt, I'ld think that this isn't a real problem. I'ld be more worried about the UA variant of fighter, which grants extra sneak damage. Sneak attack damage from multiple sources generally stacks, so would that mean a horrifying amount of sneak attack damage? Esp. when combined with a bunch of other classes which also gain sneak, generally at first level? I could easily image you gaining more than 1d6 sneak per level, which is... pretty powerful considering you also have full bab progression ;). While I´m not certain whether two feat progressions would stack, I´m quite sure that sneak attack progressions don´t stack. I used to think they did, but I was corrected on the matter by someone more knowledgeable.
ShadowcatX 07-12-07, 12:47 PM	Probably one of mine would be rogue//druid (prcing either side as desired). All good saves, the ability to shapeshift (or wild shape depending on level) into something and then pounce and sneak attack. . . I know d8 hit dice and medium attacks aren't wonderful, but you can't always have everything.
Holy_Beholder 07-12-07, 07:59 PM	Rogue/Warblade could be fun. Heavy damage manuevers+sneak attack, or even better you use the manuevers for extra attacks with two weapon fighting and do vast amounts of sneak attack damage every round.
Warpmind 07-12-07, 10:31 PM	What about Rogue10/Invisible Blade10/Sword Sage 20 (focusing on Shadow Hand disciplines)? That, my friend, is a high grade of dagger fu. :D
Johnny_Angel 07-14-07, 08:07 AM	rogue/hexblade... It's not exactly broken, but you get both evasion and mettle.
Manyfist 07-14-07, 02:00 PM	druid/wizard, that wildshapes into a dire gorilla. Watch out. Also I think the FAQ actually says natural spell works for all spells, not just druid ones. IT was either there or ask wizards. What book is Dire Gorilla? Is it the same as Dire Ape? If its anything like Dire Ape, I bet its pimping.
Krusk 07-14-07, 02:56 PM	What book is Dire Gorilla? Is it the same as Dire Ape? If its anything like Dire Ape, I bet its pimping. I think its actually the same thing, but I called it a gorilla instad of an ape. So it is quite pimping.
ShinoAburame 07-14-07, 02:57 PM	Assuming your GM allows it (as one of the players got all nasal about the alignment contradictions and I said simply "it's gestalt, sense when do we care about rules?") Barbarian/Monk The awesome attacks of the monk mixed with barbarian's rage may not be uber broken but it's deffinitely awesome. That was by far my most favorite character, it truly fealt like me the idea of being a monk using raw emotions, adrenaline, and passion to fuel his power rather then false concepts of spirituality.
Manyfist 07-14-07, 03:28 PM	I think its actually the same thing, but I called it a gorilla instad of an ape. So it is quite pimping. Sweet. A Horrid Ape (Gorilla) is awesome too. Acid Attack +5 Natural AC +4 Con...etc. Besides nothing is more frightening than seeing a big red gorilla charging at you.
key 07-15-07, 02:36 AM	Yeah. :weep: I had that idea. I made a gestalt ninja//rogue. I was all like, "I'm uber! I get sneak attack AND sudden strike!" I got killed in the second encounter by a really lucky 1/2 CR creature....dang. I'd still like to give it a try.
ShinoAburame 07-15-07, 03:02 AM	Well for that matter I could take rogue and fighter with unearthed arcana varaint of sneak attack fighter instead of bonus feats. Thus doubling the damage in sneak-attack! h4ck5!!eleven111 Assuming they stack, I would suppose they do. It's pretty stupid for gestalt to have little technichalities like "this doesn't stack" when the system was designed to be crazy awesome in power anyway.
ShinoAburame 07-25-07, 01:05 AM	Dragonfire Adept//Dragon Shaman! It's not broken but if you really like dragons...
Roog 07-25-07, 07:36 AM	Well for that matter I could take rogue and fighter with unearthed arcana varaint of sneak attack fighter instead of bonus feats. Thus doubling the damage in sneak-attack! h4ck5!!eleven111 Assuming they stack, I would suppose they do. It's pretty stupid for gestalt to have little technichalities like "this doesn't stack" when the system was designed to be crazy awesome in power anyway. They don't stack (since they are the same class feature). . . . . . Personally I like Warblade//Factorum or Warblade//Feat Rogue, but thats just because it's the style of character I like.
IlmrynXiltyn 07-25-07, 10:04 AM	I'm not sure if it's broken, but Very Gish... Wizard\\Swashbuckler\duelist as swashbuckler and duelist make a habbit of fighting in light or no armour, reflex&will saves, good skill points+int good int bonus & good hit points.
ShinoAburame 07-27-07, 03:55 AM	They don't stack (since they are the same class feature). Meh, I could rule zero they stack. I mean hell it's friggin gestalt anyway.
Roog 07-27-07, 04:22 AM	Meh, I could rule zero they stack. I mean hell it's friggin gestalt anyway. You could, but that would make you the DM; and then you don't get to play it as a PC.
Warpmind 07-27-07, 06:41 AM	Eh, if you want twice the sneak attack dice, there's one(!) legal way to do it: Rogue/Ninja. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike are not the exactly same class feature, after all. So, you just get the Sneak Attack if you're flanking the victim, but you get both if the sot's flat-footed... Feinting time, no?
RikuKupo 07-27-07, 02:03 PM	Would SA damage not stack from different classes in a regular game? Would the rogue SA not stack with the invisible blades SA? (I can't think of another class that grants pure SA, forgive me Olidamalamadingdong, god of rogues for my forgetfulness! But you get the point.) If they stack in a regular game, they should stack in gestalt.
Warpmind 07-27-07, 02:17 PM	Would SA damage not stack from different classes in a regular game? Would the rogue SA not stack with the invisible blades SA? (I can't think of another class that grants pure SA, forgive me Olidamalamadingdong, god of rogues for my forgetfulness! But you get the point.) If they stack in a regular game, they should stack in gestalt. Um, you're thinking about this from the wrong direction. Of course SA from the Rogue class stacks with that from the Invisible Blade PrC in a regular game. Because one builds upon the other! But the Gestalt rules clearly state that you can't get the same class ability twice at the same time, hence, no getting 2d6 Sneak Attack at any level. Besides, the Gestalt rules weren't made to get double up of anything; they were made so that one character could fill multiple roles in a party (primarily in a situation where the party consists of two or three players) rather than just the "Find traps & puncture things", or "Bash things until they stop moving" or "Wandering medkit" or "Magical artillery" slots... Ehh... Talking to a brick wall, feels like...
RikuKupo 07-27-07, 02:39 PM	I'm not talking about rogue//rogue, im talking rogue//invisible blade/other olidamadingdong classes. The other classes are adding on more dice, not giving a redundant ability. If youre not getting the ability again in a regular game, then youre not getting in again in gestalt! You can't juse decide that you don't like it because it goes above 10d6.
Warpmind 07-27-07, 04:21 PM	I'm not talking about rogue//rogue, im talking rogue//invisible blade/other olidamadingdong classes. The other classes are adding on more dice, not giving a redundant ability. If youre not getting the ability again in a regular game, then youre not getting in again in gestalt! You can't juse decide that you don't like it because it goes above 10d6. The rules state (page 73 of Unearthed Arcana, of course) that "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." - as such, Sneak Attack won't add up from two classes. If you're PrCing with SA, you do it on the Rogue build, not on whichever build you have going parallel. Which is why you're not getting the SA alternate class feature for the Fighter in a Fighter/Rogue gestalt. Hence, if you gestalt and level up as Invisible Blade/Rogue at the same time, you get SA for the faster class of the two while you do so... Or, in other words, for those five levels, you STILL just gain +3d6 SA, whichever level you start on.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-29-07, 05:14 PM	Rogue//Barbarian. D12 hit die 8+Int skill points Dang near every skill except Spell craft and All Knowledges. High BAB Good Fort and Reflex Saves. Can you use Sneak Attack while Raging?
Krusk 07-29-07, 05:24 PM	yes you can /\ and that is a pretty good combo, never looked that into it. You get the most everything except will save and spells.
drunkendrake 07-29-07, 07:01 PM	My personal favourite is: Thri-Keen Monk 20/Swashbuckler 7+ Exotic Weapon Master 3+ Kensai 10 Voila la uberflurry, with some seriously powerful magic weapons, too. -drake-
drunkendrake 07-29-07, 07:05 PM	The rules state (page 73 of Unearthed Arcana, of course) that "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." - as such, Sneak Attack won't add up from two classes. If you're PrCing with SA, you do it on the Rogue build, not on whichever build you have going parallel. Which is why you're not getting the SA alternate class feature for the Fighter in a Fighter/Rogue gestalt. Hence, if you gestalt and level up as Invisible Blade/Rogue at the same time, you get SA for the faster class of the two while you do so... Or, in other words, for those five levels, you STILL just gain +3d6 SA, whichever level you start on. That's what Sudden Strike was made for- would that work? Ninja/rogue would be awesome if it did.
Warpmind 07-29-07, 07:23 PM	That's what Sudden Strike was made for- would that work? Ninja/rogue would be awesome if it did. Should work, since Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike operate on slightly different rules. (You can't Sudden Strike if the target is merely flanked.)
Lawkeeper 07-30-07, 02:34 AM	I haven't seen it in the 12-ish pages already filled, so : swordsage//warblade Good BAB High Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves. d12 HD Good skills : 6 base + Int from an Int-reliant class Great choice of maneuveurs and stances. Useful abilities for swift or immediate actions each round. No choice to make for feats or magic items, both classes finding the same ones useful. Many special features. Downsize : MAD. Str, Dex, Con, Int & Wis are necessary, the former three for basic combat modifiers, the latter two for special abilities.
Gunz 08-01-07, 06:22 PM	This thread is way way way too long to check if this has been posted, but a build I came up with recently (also posted about it in charops) was a Monk 3/Fighter 2/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5//Druid 20. This is insane. 20hd forms of just about anything, all day long, switch on the fly, *and* full Druid spellcasting. Oh, and flurry of blows and wisdom to AC. This could be further optimized by going with Warblade, Barbarian and/or Ninja instead of Monk/Fighter, but that started giving me headaches (I'm not a briljant optimizer :D)
VulcanStormwrath 08-01-07, 07:35 PM	druid/wizard, that wildshapes into a dire gorilla. Watch out. Also I think the FAQ actually says natural spell works for all spells, not just druid ones. IT was either there or ask wizards. Speaking of dire gorillas, Druid/Monk And Monk/Warlock is essentially a saiyan. But i think most terrifying of all Duskblade/Cleric
CaptainPicard 08-01-07, 08:51 PM	Factotum//Binder is excellent if you want to be able to do pretty much anything you feel like, at any time. In fact, Factotum and Binder in general make for excellent gestalt classes because they cover a lot of ground and their main abilities don't require you to expend many actions. Using Inspiration points is normally a free actions (and that one that gives you an extra standard action in the round is incredible if you're doing Factotum/Caster or Factotum/Initiator) and Binders gain access to a wide range of immunities and resistances, as well as floating bonuses of a type that normally does not appear. For example, a Binder//Warblade could wind up with effectively +25 BAB, and a +4 untyped bonus to strength from that one Vestige. Hello Fullblade.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-01-07, 09:43 PM	Speaking of dire gorillas, Druid/Monk And Monk/Warlock is essentially a saiyan. But i think most terrifying of all Duskblade/Cleric Monk 20//Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 5 Full monkness, plus ability to turn into virtually anything. Gargantuan Red Dragon Monk anyone?
Lazaro 08-02-07, 04:45 AM	In an upcoming campaign our DM is limiting only to generic classes from UA. Would a Warrior//Spellcaster be viable?
concerro 08-02-07, 10:55 PM	Should work, since Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike operate on slightly different rules. (You can't Sudden Strike if the target is merely flanked.) Sudden strike is just a lesser version of sneak attack. You are only hittting them one so how do you get damage from both, and since you can use sudden strike to qualify for feats that require sneak attach that shows that they are not different enough to stack as gestalts
Saurus33 08-03-07, 07:11 AM	I once heard that this guy really wanted a high-powered game.... So he allowed triple gestalting(with multiple prestige classes) scary. I can only imagine the horror of a Druid/Cleric/Wizard. On a side note, what would be a good gestalt for a dread necromancer?
Warpmind 08-03-07, 03:48 PM	Sudden strike is just a lesser version of sneak attack. You are only hittting them one so how do you get damage from both, and since you can use sudden strike to qualify for feats that require sneak attach that shows that they are not different enough to stack as gestalts Hm. A valid point. But, I, as a DM, would at least rule that they are not identical, hence they would stack... Granted, I *would* penalize that character for being genuinely a one-trick horse is a horse is a horse of course... After all, neither Sneak Attack nor Sudden Strike work on *gasp* that which cannot be critted. Summon the Vampire Lord, the Lich and the Golem, please? :schemes:
Krusk 08-04-07, 04:32 AM	It comes up every once in a while, and is consistantly decided that they do stack. Also, as dm you wouldn't have to penalize him. When everyone else in the party can fufil multiple roles, this guy is good at just one thing. Thats a pretty big penalty on its own.
Warpmind 08-04-07, 07:22 AM	It comes up every once in a while, and is consistantly decided that they do stack. Also, as dm you wouldn't have to penalize him. When everyone else in the party can fufil multiple roles, this guy is good at just one thing. Thats a pretty big penalty on its own. That's what I meant by penalizing him. The others would have untold opportunities to shine, the NinjaRogue would have one, maybe two...
concerro 08-04-07, 11:01 PM	I once heard that this guy really wanted a high-powered game.... So he allowed triple gestalting(with multiple prestige classes) scary. I can only imagine the horror of a Druid/Cleric/Wizard. On a side note, what would be a good gestalt for a dread necromancer? Paladin at least until 2nd level to get the bonuses to all their saves. Of course you would have to use one of UA variant paladins then go into the DN/battle sorceror combo or BS/cleric
Eshenaleros 08-05-07, 12:14 AM	sorry if someone already posted this, but i have a pretty broken gestalt combo Ranger/druid: for the first three levels, you're fine. but what happens at level four, when you start getting levels for you animal companion from both your classes? at level four, you have a sixth level animal companion. by the time your level twenty, it has become a level thirty companion, and it will rip enemies to shreds in a level appropriate encounter
Krusk 08-05-07, 02:06 AM	sorry if someone already posted this, but i have a pretty broken gestalt combo Ranger/druid: for the first three levels, you're fine. but what happens at level four, when you start getting levels for you animal companion from both your classes? at level four, you have a sixth level animal companion. by the time your level twenty, it has become a level thirty companion, and it will rip enemies to shreds in a level appropriate encounter I would definatly rule that works diffrently. I would think that at best you get two animal companions, one for ranger and one for druid. But honestly i would think this is a clear situation in which you apply the "take the better of two progressions".
Lawkeeper 08-05-07, 09:08 AM	In fact, it's teh same class feature. As a gestalt rule, "shared" class features only improve at the rate of the fastest class. So, you'd keep your "druid" companion but get no "ranger" companion, nor add both levels.
Johnny_Angel 08-06-07, 09:36 PM	binder/druid
TiwazTyrsfist 08-06-07, 10:17 PM	Oh, Has anyone bothered to say Druid//Incarnate or Druid//Totemist? I'm thinking, druid with free magic items, Hurrah! Also, Incarnum rules allow for non-humanoids to shape soulmelds, so, no need for natural spell for incarnum on wild shape...
Holy_Beholder 08-07-07, 02:35 PM	Warlock/Warblade. Hideous blow+ a manuever=insane power. It also gives the Warblade the ability to not suck in ranged combat, and to fly. Insane power. Plus neither of them are all reliant on heavy armor as a fighter.
Lawkeeper 08-08-07, 02:42 AM	Warlock/Warblade. Hideous blow+ a manuever=insane power. It also gives the Warblade the ability to not suck in ranged combat, and to fly. Insane power. Plus neither of them are all reliant on heavy armor as a fighter. Hideous Blows and strike maneuvers are both standard action (or full-action for many strikes), so you can't use both on the same attack.
Alpha_Moose 08-08-07, 03:01 PM	However, Boosts can be used with Hideous Blow. I would chose Crusader rather than Warblade though for the Cha synergy. But because Warlocks don't actually need Cha, Warblade or Swordsage would be good choices.