Gestalt Save/BAB-Calculations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Save/BAB-Calculations [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Naja
07-11-04, 12:35 PM Hi out here.

I made my mind up about a gestalt character this weekend, and really got confused by the base save and attack bonusses on him.
The basic idea was a rogue/favored soul (and that doesn´t made me any problem;) ), but when I was adding Prestige Classes into the mix, it got really fast out of hand. So, I was adding Divine Agent (Manual of the Planes) and Contemplative (DotF), but I should really give you a look at my calculations:

(BAB/FORT/REF/WILL/Skillpoints)
1) Rog1/FS1: 0/2/2/2/44
2) Rog2/FS2 1/3/3/3/11
3) Rog3/FS3: 2/3/3/3/11
4) Rog4/FS4 3/4/4/4/11
5) Rog5/FS5 3/4/4/4/11
6) DA1/FS6 4/5/5/6/7
7) Rog6/DA2 5/6/6/7/11
8) DA3/FS7 6/7/7/8/7
9) Rog7/DA4 7/7/7/9/11
10) DA5/FS8 8/8/8/10/7
11) Rog8/Cont1 9/8/9/10/11
12) Rog9/DA6 10/9/10/11/11
13) DA7/FS9 11/10/11/12/7
14) Rog10/DA8 12/10/12/13/11
15) DA9/FS10 13/11/13/14/7
16) Rog11/ DA10 14/11/13/15/11
17) Rog12/FS11 15/12/13/16/11
18) Rog13/FS 12 16/12/13/16/11
19) Rog14/FS 13 17/12/14/16/11
20) Rog15/ FS14 18/13/15/17/11
Rog: Rogue Class (Good Reflex)
FS: Favored Soul Class (all Saves good)
DA: Divine Agent (Good Will)
Cont: Contemplative (Good Will)

Well, a BAB of +18 makes no sense at all if gained by 3 3/4 BAB classes and the saves are ridiculously high, but by my reading of the rules, this seems so far correct. Then I was thinking another way: in UA it mentions "you choose the better progression". Now what does that mean in this case?

I was thinking of another way of looking at it (but that made no more sense to either):
Fortitude: on 14 level I gain good progression (leaving 6 level bad): +9 (good)+2=+11
Reflex: As Favored Soul alternates in "rogueless" levels, it leaves with 20 levels of good progression: +12
Will: all 20 levels gain good progression. Two of them granting me a +2 (firstlevel) bonus: 18 good: +11 +4 (for first level bonus)= +15
BAB: all levels give 3/4 bab progression, making this: +15

So, we have a lvl 20 build of BAB +15 (instead of +18), Fort +11 (+13), Ref +12 (+15), Will +15 (+17), which looks right to me.
That simply means that I have to break down my saves (and BAB) everytime I level up into the same pattern: how many levels good, how many levels bad progression.
Is this now correct?

Thank you for your answers.
Part-Human2
07-12-04, 01:01 AM I'm not sure if you can do

6) DA1/FS6 4/5/5/6/7
7) Rog6/DA2 5/6/6/7/11
8) DA3/FS7 6/7/7/8/7
9) Rog7/DA4 7/7/7/9/11

i.e. putting a class on both sides of the Gestalt advancement.

I've always considered that a class has to be on one side or the other, not both. Then it's easy to calculate because you tally each side's BAB & Saves and use the best of for each.

So total BAB, Saves & Skill Points for
Rog 15
Divine Agent
then compare with the totals for
Favored Soul 15
Contemplative 5
adse the highest total from each side.
Kintara
07-12-04, 02:37 AM I think the best way to do it is to look at each level as an incremental increase. Look at the fractional saves rules. Another way of listing your BAB and saves progressions is to put the amount it changes at each level.

For example, a fighter has:
Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will
1 +1 +2 1/2 +1/3 +1/3
2 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3
3 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3
4 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3
... ... ... ... ...

A rogue would have something similar, except it has 3/4 BAB and a good Reflex save, instead. When you gestalt, look at each level INDIVIDUALLY, and take the best INCREMENTAL bonus.

If you want the saves to come out more reasonably, then use the rule that you can only get the +2 bump for a good save once.
Naja
07-12-04, 04:59 AM Originally posted by Part-Human2
I'm not sure if you can do
i.e. putting a class on both sides of the Gestalt advancement.

I've always considered that a class has to be on one side or the other, not both. Then it's easy to calculate because you tally each side's BAB & Saves and use the best of for each.

The variant rules doesn´t say that in UA. As I took all levels of Divine Agent that give caster progression (and the one of Contemplative) with rogue levels on the other side, there will be no spellcasting level problem (i.e.: this character gains full 20 levels of favored soul spellcasting, not more)

Originally posted by Kintara
I think the best way to do it is to look at each level as an incremental increase. Look at the fractional saves rules. Another way of listing your BAB and saves progressions is to put the amount it changes at each level.

With fractional increases there shouldn´t be a problem to calculate this character. But we don´t use them right now, sorry.
Btw: I have no problem with the Will save (with FS9/DA10/Con1 it should be nearly as high), but with the unnormal high BAB, FORT and REF.
Kintara
07-12-04, 02:35 PM Fractional bonuses are barely a "house rule." Only a retarded DM, IMHO, would disallow them if you wanted to use them. If you can't use them, for some stupid reason, then do the same thing I just did, except the changes will be integers. If we use the fighter example, fort would go: +2, +1, +0, +1, .... Will would go: +0, +0, +1, +0, ....

Is that what you used? I haven't checked your math.
Cathon
07-12-04, 05:08 PM Fractional saves should be considered a necessity with Gestalt classes. Something similar for Base Attack Bonus as well. (Someone did an offset example build of a one level of fighter, everything else wizard/sorceror with a BAB of 20.) The only sane way to do Gestalt classes is to always go up by the best progression for each slot, not necessarily by the best amount at that level.

They left most of the fitting into a real campaign rules as an exercise for the DM.
Naja
07-13-04, 03:27 AM Kintara, I was using the +1/+0-Outlet in my complete build. It is something scary in this context.
In my second calculation i simply added together levels of "good" progression (for will: rog10; FS5/DA5 will add to 10 levels good) and calculated the Save/BAB for that and then added the amount the "bad" progression levels left would have.
Example:
I have a rogue 20 /FS10/DA10, giving me 10 levels of good Fortitude progression (FS), leaving 10 levels of bad Fort progression. That amounts to +7+3=+10.
This, while it leaves more work to the player each level, comes out to a wellrounded progression.

But: Thank you all, for you have answered my question very well:
I was not right with my calculations, because there is no "official" calculation rule.
Will try to talk my DM into "fractional Saves" and "fractional BAB"...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Naja 07-11-04, 12:35 PM	Hi out here. I made my mind up about a gestalt character this weekend, and really got confused by the base save and attack bonusses on him. The basic idea was a rogue/favored soul (and that doesn´t made me any problem;) ), but when I was adding Prestige Classes into the mix, it got really fast out of hand. So, I was adding Divine Agent (Manual of the Planes) and Contemplative (DotF), but I should really give you a look at my calculations: (BAB/FORT/REF/WILL/Skillpoints) 1) Rog1/FS1: 0/2/2/2/44 2) Rog2/FS2 1/3/3/3/11 3) Rog3/FS3: 2/3/3/3/11 4) Rog4/FS4 3/4/4/4/11 5) Rog5/FS5 3/4/4/4/11 6) DA1/FS6 4/5/5/6/7 7) Rog6/DA2 5/6/6/7/11 8) DA3/FS7 6/7/7/8/7 9) Rog7/DA4 7/7/7/9/11 10) DA5/FS8 8/8/8/10/7 11) Rog8/Cont1 9/8/9/10/11 12) Rog9/DA6 10/9/10/11/11 13) DA7/FS9 11/10/11/12/7 14) Rog10/DA8 12/10/12/13/11 15) DA9/FS10 13/11/13/14/7 16) Rog11/ DA10 14/11/13/15/11 17) Rog12/FS11 15/12/13/16/11 18) Rog13/FS 12 16/12/13/16/11 19) Rog14/FS 13 17/12/14/16/11 20) Rog15/ FS14 18/13/15/17/11 Rog: Rogue Class (Good Reflex) FS: Favored Soul Class (all Saves good) DA: Divine Agent (Good Will) Cont: Contemplative (Good Will) Well, a BAB of +18 makes no sense at all if gained by 3 3/4 BAB classes and the saves are ridiculously high, but by my reading of the rules, this seems so far correct. Then I was thinking another way: in UA it mentions "you choose the better progression". Now what does that mean in this case? I was thinking of another way of looking at it (but that made no more sense to either): Fortitude: on 14 level I gain good progression (leaving 6 level bad): +9 (good)+2=+11 Reflex: As Favored Soul alternates in "rogueless" levels, it leaves with 20 levels of good progression: +12 Will: all 20 levels gain good progression. Two of them granting me a +2 (firstlevel) bonus: 18 good: +11 +4 (for first level bonus)= +15 BAB: all levels give 3/4 bab progression, making this: +15 So, we have a lvl 20 build of BAB +15 (instead of +18), Fort +11 (+13), Ref +12 (+15), Will +15 (+17), which looks right to me. That simply means that I have to break down my saves (and BAB) everytime I level up into the same pattern: how many levels good, how many levels bad progression. Is this now correct? Thank you for your answers.
Part-Human2 07-12-04, 01:01 AM	I'm not sure if you can do 6) DA1/FS6 4/5/5/6/7 7) Rog6/DA2 5/6/6/7/11 8) DA3/FS7 6/7/7/8/7 9) Rog7/DA4 7/7/7/9/11 i.e. putting a class on both sides of the Gestalt advancement. I've always considered that a class has to be on one side or the other, not both. Then it's easy to calculate because you tally each side's BAB & Saves and use the best of for each. So total BAB, Saves & Skill Points for Rog 15 Divine Agent then compare with the totals for Favored Soul 15 Contemplative 5 adse the highest total from each side.
Kintara 07-12-04, 02:37 AM	I think the best way to do it is to look at each level as an incremental increase. Look at the fractional saves rules. Another way of listing your BAB and saves progressions is to put the amount it changes at each level. For example, a fighter has: Lvl BAB Fort Ref Will 1 +1 +2 1/2 +1/3 +1/3 2 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3 3 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3 4 +1 +1/2 +1/3 +1/3 ... ... ... ... ... A rogue would have something similar, except it has 3/4 BAB and a good Reflex save, instead. When you gestalt, look at each level INDIVIDUALLY, and take the best INCREMENTAL bonus. If you want the saves to come out more reasonably, then use the rule that you can only get the +2 bump for a good save once.
Naja 07-12-04, 04:59 AM	Originally posted by Part-Human2 I'm not sure if you can do i.e. putting a class on both sides of the Gestalt advancement. I've always considered that a class has to be on one side or the other, not both. Then it's easy to calculate because you tally each side's BAB & Saves and use the best of for each. The variant rules doesn´t say that in UA. As I took all levels of Divine Agent that give caster progression (and the one of Contemplative) with rogue levels on the other side, there will be no spellcasting level problem (i.e.: this character gains full 20 levels of favored soul spellcasting, not more) Originally posted by Kintara I think the best way to do it is to look at each level as an incremental increase. Look at the fractional saves rules. Another way of listing your BAB and saves progressions is to put the amount it changes at each level. With fractional increases there shouldn´t be a problem to calculate this character. But we don´t use them right now, sorry. Btw: I have no problem with the Will save (with FS9/DA10/Con1 it should be nearly as high), but with the unnormal high BAB, FORT and REF.
Kintara 07-12-04, 02:35 PM	Fractional bonuses are barely a "house rule." Only a retarded DM, IMHO, would disallow them if you wanted to use them. If you can't use them, for some stupid reason, then do the same thing I just did, except the changes will be integers. If we use the fighter example, fort would go: +2, +1, +0, +1, .... Will would go: +0, +0, +1, +0, .... Is that what you used? I haven't checked your math.
Cathon 07-12-04, 05:08 PM	Fractional saves should be considered a necessity with Gestalt classes. Something similar for Base Attack Bonus as well. (Someone did an offset example build of a one level of fighter, everything else wizard/sorceror with a BAB of 20.) The only sane way to do Gestalt classes is to always go up by the best progression for each slot, not necessarily by the best amount at that level. They left most of the fitting into a real campaign rules as an exercise for the DM.
Naja 07-13-04, 03:27 AM	Kintara, I was using the +1/+0-Outlet in my complete build. It is something scary in this context. In my second calculation i simply added together levels of "good" progression (for will: rog10; FS5/DA5 will add to 10 levels good) and calculated the Save/BAB for that and then added the amount the "bad" progression levels left would have. Example: I have a rogue 20 /FS10/DA10, giving me 10 levels of good Fortitude progression (FS), leaving 10 levels of bad Fort progression. That amounts to +7+3=+10. This, while it leaves more work to the player each level, comes out to a wellrounded progression. But: Thank you all, for you have answered my question very well: I was not right with my calculations, because there is no "official" calculation rule. Will try to talk my DM into "fractional Saves" and "fractional BAB"...