Gestalt saves - better than good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt saves - better than good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marvin
04-15-04, 02:01 PM Okay, so we all know that for each gestalt level you take the best of whatever the two classes have to offer. So, for a combination like ftr/rog you'd expect the reflex save to be equal to the rogue's save, right? Er, no...

A table I'm sure you all recognise. Good and bad saves by level, then the gestalt of the two:

1 +2 +0 +2
2 +3 +0 +3
3 +3 +1 +4 (because the "bad" save increases)
4 +4 +1 +5
5 +4 +1 +5
6 +5 +2 +6
7 +5 +2 +6
8 +6 +2 +7
9 +6 +3 +8
10 +7 +3 +9

Now for a bit of multiclass trickery. Suppose we take the favourite of a monk/druid, but stick a level of fighter before the monk for feats and proficiencies. Now look at what the will save does. Columns are druid, ftr/monk, gestalt:

1 +2 +0 +2
2 +3 +2 +4
3 +3 +3 +5
4 +4 +3 +6
5 +4 +4 +7
6 +5 +4 +8
7 +5 +5 +9
8 +6 +5 +10
9 +6 +6 +11
10 +7 +6 +12

Repeat this for, oh, a full BaB for a rogue/wizard (just insert a couple of levels of fighter or swashbuckler in the rogue side) or just about anything else you want to twink.

Have I just found a really gaping exploit? Or a really good reason not to allow multiclassing anywhere near gestalt rules?
Illithidbix
04-15-04, 02:40 PM Hmm, I can kind of get what you're comming too... however I think that it's mearly because Multiclassing different gesalt combanations just gets very confusing, for start you need to get in a habit of writing the classes as gesult combanations, and at what levels you too the combanation to see what advancement you actually got at that levels.

I don't see how you got that +1 will save in your first example.
Surely if it was just a straight Fighter/rogue gesalt then it will just have bad progression all the way through. If you added a few levels of fighter/wizard gesalt level then I could see a few complications (namely does the gesalt count the benifits of 1st level fighter or how high it is).
In general I think multiclassing gesalt levels has potential to be very messy.

On the otherhand I don't ever intend to use gesalts anyway...
Riznar
04-15-04, 02:50 PM You don't look at the charts, you look at the fractional progression. Otherwise you get abuses like the Ftr1/Wiz19/Sor20 with +20 BAB.

So with your example, the will save for the gestalt would be:
1: +2
2: +4
3: +5
4: +5
5: +6
etc...
Lord Schpungus
04-15-04, 04:49 PM Actually, the fractional progressions are a separate variant rule. You don't have to use them with gestalt. It does remove the 20 BAB wiz/sorc overpoweredness questions, but it's certainly not required.
radu the wanderer
04-15-04, 05:13 PM One problem though... Gestalt abilities don't STACK, per se... they overlap.

In this example, you get the better of the two FOR THAT LEVEL, not the better PROGRESSION.

A Ranger-Sorcerer 1 (my own gestalt notation-- both classes at 1) would have base Fort/Ref/Will saves of +2/+2/+2, because Ranger has good Fort and Ref saves, Sorcerer has good Will save. You would also have a +1 BAB and d8 hd in addition to favored enemy, tracking, wild empathy, and sorcerer spells. Let's level this character up to, say level 6.

A Ranger-Sorcerer 6 has base F/R/W saves of +5 each. Fort and Ref from Ranger, Will from Sorc. The +2 for "bad" progressions does not apply here... in other words, you get a +5 base for having a good save, not +7 in all saves from stacking. You take the best of all classes, not everything.

A Fighter-Sorcerer 1/Wizard-Sorcerer 19 would have, in total, a +10 Base Attack (+1 from Fighter-Sorc 1, +9 from Wizard-Sorc 19), F/R/W base saves of +8/+6/+12 (Fort is higher because Fighter-Sorcerer's get good Fort saves, but only 1 level means it's just +2. Other than that, you get the same Reflex and Will saves a Wiz 20 or Sorc 20 would get.

Gestalts are powerful, true. The best combinations from a "saves" perspective would probably be:

Monk-Paladin 20
Ranger-Wizard 20
Ranger-Sorcerer 20
Rogue-Cleric 20
Druid-Rogue 20
Monk-Sorcerer 20

Of those, Monk-Paladin and Monk-Sorcerer are my favorites. The first gives you a very "samurai" type character similar to Toshiro Mifune's roles, kind of a Miyamoto Musashi archetype.The second gives you a very "wuxia" feeling character, much like the characters from Iron Monkey, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, The Bride with White Hair, and the like.

Although it's really hard to pass up the sheer combat fury that is the Barbarian-Rogue 20... shivers.... good Fort and Ref, improved evasion, d12 hit die, full BAB, sneak attack, and rage? Oh, and 8 skill points a level and more class skills than you can throw a stick at. Yeah.... droooolllllllll.......

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marvin 04-15-04, 02:01 PM	Okay, so we all know that for each gestalt level you take the best of whatever the two classes have to offer. So, for a combination like ftr/rog you'd expect the reflex save to be equal to the rogue's save, right? Er, no... A table I'm sure you all recognise. Good and bad saves by level, then the gestalt of the two: 1 +2 +0 +2 2 +3 +0 +3 3 +3 +1 +4 (because the "bad" save increases) 4 +4 +1 +5 5 +4 +1 +5 6 +5 +2 +6 7 +5 +2 +6 8 +6 +2 +7 9 +6 +3 +8 10 +7 +3 +9 Now for a bit of multiclass trickery. Suppose we take the favourite of a monk/druid, but stick a level of fighter before the monk for feats and proficiencies. Now look at what the will save does. Columns are druid, ftr/monk, gestalt: 1 +2 +0 +2 2 +3 +2 +4 3 +3 +3 +5 4 +4 +3 +6 5 +4 +4 +7 6 +5 +4 +8 7 +5 +5 +9 8 +6 +5 +10 9 +6 +6 +11 10 +7 +6 +12 Repeat this for, oh, a full BaB for a rogue/wizard (just insert a couple of levels of fighter or swashbuckler in the rogue side) or just about anything else you want to twink. Have I just found a really gaping exploit? Or a really good reason not to allow multiclassing anywhere near gestalt rules?
Illithidbix 04-15-04, 02:40 PM	Hmm, I can kind of get what you're comming too... however I think that it's mearly because Multiclassing different gesalt combanations just gets very confusing, for start you need to get in a habit of writing the classes as gesult combanations, and at what levels you too the combanation to see what advancement you actually got at that levels. I don't see how you got that +1 will save in your first example. Surely if it was just a straight Fighter/rogue gesalt then it will just have bad progression all the way through. If you added a few levels of fighter/wizard gesalt level then I could see a few complications (namely does the gesalt count the benifits of 1st level fighter or how high it is). In general I think multiclassing gesalt levels has potential to be very messy. On the otherhand I don't ever intend to use gesalts anyway...
Riznar 04-15-04, 02:50 PM	You don't look at the charts, you look at the fractional progression. Otherwise you get abuses like the Ftr1/Wiz19/Sor20 with +20 BAB. So with your example, the will save for the gestalt would be: 1: +2 2: +4 3: +5 4: +5 5: +6 etc...
Lord Schpungus 04-15-04, 04:49 PM	Actually, the fractional progressions are a separate variant rule. You don't have to use them with gestalt. It does remove the 20 BAB wiz/sorc overpoweredness questions, but it's certainly not required.
radu the wanderer 04-15-04, 05:13 PM	One problem though... Gestalt abilities don't STACK, per se... they overlap. In this example, you get the better of the two FOR THAT LEVEL, not the better PROGRESSION. A Ranger-Sorcerer 1 (my own gestalt notation-- both classes at 1) would have base Fort/Ref/Will saves of +2/+2/+2, because Ranger has good Fort and Ref saves, Sorcerer has good Will save. You would also have a +1 BAB and d8 hd in addition to favored enemy, tracking, wild empathy, and sorcerer spells. Let's level this character up to, say level 6. A Ranger-Sorcerer 6 has base F/R/W saves of +5 each. Fort and Ref from Ranger, Will from Sorc. The +2 for "bad" progressions does not apply here... in other words, you get a +5 base for having a good save, not +7 in all saves from stacking. You take the best of all classes, not everything. A Fighter-Sorcerer 1/Wizard-Sorcerer 19 would have, in total, a +10 Base Attack (+1 from Fighter-Sorc 1, +9 from Wizard-Sorc 19), F/R/W base saves of +8/+6/+12 (Fort is higher because Fighter-Sorcerer's get good Fort saves, but only 1 level means it's just +2. Other than that, you get the same Reflex and Will saves a Wiz 20 or Sorc 20 would get. Gestalts are powerful, true. The best combinations from a "saves" perspective would probably be: Monk-Paladin 20 Ranger-Wizard 20 Ranger-Sorcerer 20 Rogue-Cleric 20 Druid-Rogue 20 Monk-Sorcerer 20 Of those, Monk-Paladin and Monk-Sorcerer are my favorites. The first gives you a very "samurai" type character similar to Toshiro Mifune's roles, kind of a Miyamoto Musashi archetype.The second gives you a very "wuxia" feeling character, much like the characters from Iron Monkey, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, The Bride with White Hair, and the like. Although it's really hard to pass up the sheer combat fury that is the Barbarian-Rogue 20... shivers.... good Fort and Ref, improved evasion, d12 hit die, full BAB, sneak attack, and rage? Oh, and 8 skill points a level and more class skills than you can throw a stick at. Yeah.... droooolllllllll.......