Gestalt skill points - perceived problem and possible fix [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt skill points - perceived problem and possible fix [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crystal Monk
06-24-07, 04:09 PM I've been running a gestalt game for a while, and have realized that there's a distinct problem in the way that gestalt deals with skills. as it's written, the gestalt character, when leveling up, gets the skill points from whichever class has more points and takes skills from both classes as class skills.

now, if the two classes have a lot of common skills - rogue/bard, for example, or ranger/druid - then it's not that much of a problem. however, if the combination is something like fighter/wizard, then the character has two mutually exclusive skill lists (except for Craft and Profession, as everyone gets those as class skills) and only 2+INT bonus skill points to train in all of them.

the thing is, I'm starting to see this as a problem in my campaign, as the characters' skill levels for class-centric skills (knowledge skills for wizard-types, open lock and disable device for the rogues, etc) are lower than they would be for a single-class character. yes, the gestalt characters have a greater diversity of skills, but...

my point (yes, I do have one) is that I'm considering upping the skill points for the gestalt characters. each character, upon leveling, would get the next rank up of skill points - if normally 2, the character would get 4, and so forth. I think this would help solve the problem while both keeping the gestalt flavor. naturally, the maximum ranks allowed in a skill wouldn't change.

any thoughts on this would be appreciated. thank you.
DivineDragoonXD
06-24-07, 10:41 PM Gesalts are already powerful as it is and that is also one of the disadvantages of being Gesalt; you have to spread your feats & skills upon both character classes instead of one.
trapspringer
06-24-07, 11:05 PM I get what he's after, though.

If you have a two character game and those two people are trying to cover all four party roles, they may run short on skill points.

I can't imagine that this problem wouldn't be better solved by upping the point buy by four and letting the players boost their intelligence a point or two, though. If they gimped themselves, let 'em rebuild and warn 'em about overspecialization.
RostekCliffdiver
06-25-07, 02:57 PM I also feel that it is part of the balance of Gestalt to get hosed on skill points and feats. My campaign has a few very carefully balanced combos of classes and the others just do not seem to understand why the skill ranks are so low in the 25+ skills that they have. If you have 2 players, make up someplace that they can go to get 'training' to bring up the ranks, make sure they pay gp for the privilege and the 'training' can be glossed over easily to move things along.
Sunic_Flames
06-25-07, 04:05 PM The thing is, both skill lists have to be useful to you. Take the fighter/wizard. Most of his skills are just basic physical things, climb, ride, jump... wizard spells can replicate these in the offchance they're needed. The exceptions are Handle Animal and Intimidate, which are situational. So in that example you'd be skilling up more or less the same as a normal wizard. Now in cases where you both need both skilllists and have few points to work with it applies, but I can't really think of any such examples offhand.
koiulpoi
06-25-07, 10:42 PM The thing is, both skill lists have to be useful to you. Take the fighter/wizard. Most of his skills are just basic physical things, climb, ride, jump... wizard spells can replicate these in the offchance they're needed. The exceptions are Handle Animal and Intimidate, which are situational. So in that example you'd be skilling up more or less the same as a normal wizard. Now in cases where you both need both skilllists and have few points to work with it applies, but I can't really think of any such examples offhand.

Not to mention that, in that example, your intelligence is probably pretty high from being a wizard.

That's kind of a sucky gestalt anyways. No armor (well, no real armor), little synergy, bad reflex save.

But I totally get what you mean, and yeah, it sucks. Tell your players to deal.
Lawkeeper
06-27-07, 08:11 AM At each level, have the gestalt get the following skill points :

[highest base] + [Int modifier] + [miscellaneous modifier] + [lowest base - 2 ; minimum 2]

That way, if you choose two skill-monkey classes, you're not screwed because of that, but you're not fully adding both potentials. You'll still be limited on feats, so that's weak enough.
The minimum of 2 on the lowest class is precisely to help those skill-deprived classes like fighters, sorcerers, clerics, etc.

A few examples :
- human wizard/fighter, Int 18 : 2 (Wiz) + 4 (Int) + 1 (human) + 2 (Ftr ; minimum possible) = 9 skills points per level, 2 more than by RAW. Thank you blessed Intelligence, but those classes really have different skill sets.
- halfling barbarian/sorcerer, Int 11 : 4 + 0 + 0 + 2 = 6 skill points, 2 more than by RAW. Less skills than Ftr/Wiz, but much lower Int, and fits the non-academic learning.
- elf rogue/bard, Int 16 : 8 + 3 + (6-2=4) = 15 skill points, 4 more than by RAW. Logic for a double skill-monkey, with a such a diverse panel of skills to master (interaction, knowledge, sneakiness/movement, magic, traps/locks, perceptions).
- aasimar paladin/cleric, Int 10 : 2 + 0 + 0 + 2 (minimum) = 4 skill points, 2 more than by RAW. But between ride, spellcraft, heal, know(religion), diplomacy, sense motive, etc, demands are high.
- half-elf ranger/druid, Int 12 : 6 + 1 + 0 + 2 = 9 skill points, 2 more than by RAW.

Obviously, you're gonna have well-rounded players, but in the end it's all depending on whether you have a small-sized group or an ordinary-sized group of PCs. Gestalts is, at the origin, meant to help small-sized groups, where not all roles can be fit. Everything is not in the class features and basic BAB/saves, skills are very important for some classes, and are the primary asset of some. If you combine two heavy spellcasting classes, you're gonna having both spellcastings ; if you combine a martial and a spellcasting class, you're gonna have both high BAB and good spells ; if you combine fighter and rogue, you're gonna have both full BAB, good Refl+Fort, bonus feats, sneak attack and good skills. But, by RAW, if you combine two skill monkeys, you greatly lose on their normal assets : try building a ranger/bard for example, whose classes have the same 6 base skill points but diverging skill sets. It'd be like combining Ftr/Sor with only poor or average BAB ; or barely paladin-like divine spellcasting when going Clc/Wiz ; or having a Rgr/Drd without wildshape and animal companion.
TwiddleStootch
06-27-07, 03:20 PM I did something like this for my current 2 person Gestalt campaign.

They are playing a Fighter//Cleric and a Wizard//Archivist (so...much...divine :weep: ).
The real problem here is: NO Search, Spot or Listen. I knew I couldn't throw many traps at them, no Rogue, but I wanted them to have Search so they could at least find the traps.

So, what I did was give each of them +2 skill points / level and let them treat spot, listen and search as class skills, telling them the reason was so they would have those skills.
So, they took those skills, so its all good.

Although in a larger party, I probably wouldn't give extra skills/skill points, since they should be able to cover it.
Crystal Monk
07-06-07, 09:52 AM At each level, have the gestalt get the following skill points :

[highest base] + [Int modifier] + [miscellaneous modifier] + [lowest base - 2 ; minimum 2]I really like that, it makes a lot of sense without being too overpowering. I might go with that, thank you.
Lawkeeper
07-06-07, 10:28 AM You're welcome.

In fact, with my group we're using the same formula without the -2, but :
- few games are played with all party members (hence the need for duplicate skills at least)
- every PC is required to take at least one full Craft or Profession skill

And characters appear rather fine as such.:)
Ganeldil
07-17-07, 10:53 AM Another option would be to use the variant rules from some Monte's stuff. Like linking some skills and allowing 1 point buys to advance the group instead of just the individual skill.
Lawkeeper
07-17-07, 11:14 AM Another option would be to use the variant rules from some Monte's stuff. Like linking some skills and allowing 1 point buys to advance the group instead of just the individual skill.
Where do you find that stuff ?:confused:
Dazzer
07-17-07, 12:31 PM A friend of mine who likes running gestault, and loves players to be immensely powerful has the following solution.

Add one half the number of skills of the lower skilled class to your skill points per level.

For example: Fighter/Wizard gets 3 + int skills (2, +1 from half of 2, )

Rogue/Scout gets 12 + int skills

Rogue/Bard gets 9 + int skills

Ranger/Druid gets 8 + int skills

etc...

This makes players who play two highly skill classes EXTREMELY skills-related, and players who play two low skill characters get a small bonus. It works out best for the players who play a low skilled (2 or 4) and a high skilled in terms of overall balance (6 or 8)
Ganeldil
07-17-07, 03:19 PM Where do you find that stuff ?:confused:

Iron Heroes, which was actually written by WoTC's own Mike Mearls :)
I am not sure if I can link to it without violating a policy but if you search you should be able to find it.
Lawkeeper
07-17-07, 03:30 PM Iron Heroes, which was actually written by WoTC's own Mike Mearls :)
I am not sure if I can link to it without violating a policy but if you search you should be able to find it.
Oh, right, that's another view of D&D entirely. I've already been tempted to simply purchase it and mix both systems (that's gonna make them powerful, but hell! my special prestige-gestalt rules already make for uber characters), but I just think it'd be too much.

Thanks nevertheless.:)
Ganeldil
07-17-07, 03:39 PM Oh, right, that's another view of D&D entirely. I've already been tempted to simply purchase it and mix both systems (that's gonna make them powerful, but hell! my special prestige-gestalt rules already make for uber characters), but I just think it'd be too much.

Thanks nevertheless.:)

It's really great stuff, it's all about really powerful PC's doing amazing things. You could adopt the skill group thing really easy basically for example Climb, Ride, Swim would be in a group and 1 skill point would raise them all 1 rank. Bluff, Intimidate, diplomacy would be 1 group etc....it actually makes sense.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crystal Monk 06-24-07, 04:09 PM	I've been running a gestalt game for a while, and have realized that there's a distinct problem in the way that gestalt deals with skills. as it's written, the gestalt character, when leveling up, gets the skill points from whichever class has more points and takes skills from both classes as class skills. now, if the two classes have a lot of common skills - rogue/bard, for example, or ranger/druid - then it's not that much of a problem. however, if the combination is something like fighter/wizard, then the character has two mutually exclusive skill lists (except for Craft and Profession, as everyone gets those as class skills) and only 2+INT bonus skill points to train in all of them. the thing is, I'm starting to see this as a problem in my campaign, as the characters' skill levels for class-centric skills (knowledge skills for wizard-types, open lock and disable device for the rogues, etc) are lower than they would be for a single-class character. yes, the gestalt characters have a greater diversity of skills, but... my point (yes, I do have one) is that I'm considering upping the skill points for the gestalt characters. each character, upon leveling, would get the next rank up of skill points - if normally 2, the character would get 4, and so forth. I think this would help solve the problem while both keeping the gestalt flavor. naturally, the maximum ranks allowed in a skill wouldn't change. any thoughts on this would be appreciated. thank you.
DivineDragoonXD 06-24-07, 10:41 PM	Gesalts are already powerful as it is and that is also one of the disadvantages of being Gesalt; you have to spread your feats & skills upon both character classes instead of one.
trapspringer 06-24-07, 11:05 PM	I get what he's after, though. If you have a two character game and those two people are trying to cover all four party roles, they may run short on skill points. I can't imagine that this problem wouldn't be better solved by upping the point buy by four and letting the players boost their intelligence a point or two, though. If they gimped themselves, let 'em rebuild and warn 'em about overspecialization.
RostekCliffdiver 06-25-07, 02:57 PM	I also feel that it is part of the balance of Gestalt to get hosed on skill points and feats. My campaign has a few very carefully balanced combos of classes and the others just do not seem to understand why the skill ranks are so low in the 25+ skills that they have. If you have 2 players, make up someplace that they can go to get 'training' to bring up the ranks, make sure they pay gp for the privilege and the 'training' can be glossed over easily to move things along.
Sunic_Flames 06-25-07, 04:05 PM	The thing is, both skill lists have to be useful to you. Take the fighter/wizard. Most of his skills are just basic physical things, climb, ride, jump... wizard spells can replicate these in the offchance they're needed. The exceptions are Handle Animal and Intimidate, which are situational. So in that example you'd be skilling up more or less the same as a normal wizard. Now in cases where you both need both skilllists and have few points to work with it applies, but I can't really think of any such examples offhand.
koiulpoi 06-25-07, 10:42 PM	The thing is, both skill lists have to be useful to you. Take the fighter/wizard. Most of his skills are just basic physical things, climb, ride, jump... wizard spells can replicate these in the offchance they're needed. The exceptions are Handle Animal and Intimidate, which are situational. So in that example you'd be skilling up more or less the same as a normal wizard. Now in cases where you both need both skilllists and have few points to work with it applies, but I can't really think of any such examples offhand. Not to mention that, in that example, your intelligence is probably pretty high from being a wizard. That's kind of a sucky gestalt anyways. No armor (well, no real armor), little synergy, bad reflex save. But I totally get what you mean, and yeah, it sucks. Tell your players to deal.
Lawkeeper 06-27-07, 08:11 AM	At each level, have the gestalt get the following skill points : [highest base] + [Int modifier] + [miscellaneous modifier] + [lowest base - 2 ; minimum 2] That way, if you choose two skill-monkey classes, you're not screwed because of that, but you're not fully adding both potentials. You'll still be limited on feats, so that's weak enough. The minimum of 2 on the lowest class is precisely to help those skill-deprived classes like fighters, sorcerers, clerics, etc. A few examples : - human wizard/fighter, Int 18 : 2 (Wiz) + 4 (Int) + 1 (human) + 2 (Ftr ; minimum possible) = 9 skills points per level, 2 more than by RAW. Thank you blessed Intelligence, but those classes really have different skill sets. - halfling barbarian/sorcerer, Int 11 : 4 + 0 + 0 + 2 = 6 skill points, 2 more than by RAW. Less skills than Ftr/Wiz, but much lower Int, and fits the non-academic learning. - elf rogue/bard, Int 16 : 8 + 3 + (6-2=4) = 15 skill points, 4 more than by RAW. Logic for a double skill-monkey, with a such a diverse panel of skills to master (interaction, knowledge, sneakiness/movement, magic, traps/locks, perceptions). - aasimar paladin/cleric, Int 10 : 2 + 0 + 0 + 2 (minimum) = 4 skill points, 2 more than by RAW. But between ride, spellcraft, heal, know(religion), diplomacy, sense motive, etc, demands are high. - half-elf ranger/druid, Int 12 : 6 + 1 + 0 + 2 = 9 skill points, 2 more than by RAW. Obviously, you're gonna have well-rounded players, but in the end it's all depending on whether you have a small-sized group or an ordinary-sized group of PCs. Gestalts is, at the origin, meant to help small-sized groups, where not all roles can be fit. Everything is not in the class features and basic BAB/saves, skills are very important for some classes, and are the primary asset of some. If you combine two heavy spellcasting classes, you're gonna having both spellcastings ; if you combine a martial and a spellcasting class, you're gonna have both high BAB and good spells ; if you combine fighter and rogue, you're gonna have both full BAB, good Refl+Fort, bonus feats, sneak attack and good skills. But, by RAW, if you combine two skill monkeys, you greatly lose on their normal assets : try building a ranger/bard for example, whose classes have the same 6 base skill points but diverging skill sets. It'd be like combining Ftr/Sor with only poor or average BAB ; or barely paladin-like divine spellcasting when going Clc/Wiz ; or having a Rgr/Drd without wildshape and animal companion.
TwiddleStootch 06-27-07, 03:20 PM	I did something like this for my current 2 person Gestalt campaign. They are playing a Fighter//Cleric and a Wizard//Archivist (so...much...divine :weep: ). The real problem here is: NO Search, Spot or Listen. I knew I couldn't throw many traps at them, no Rogue, but I wanted them to have Search so they could at least find the traps. So, what I did was give each of them +2 skill points / level and let them treat spot, listen and search as class skills, telling them the reason was so they would have those skills. So, they took those skills, so its all good. Although in a larger party, I probably wouldn't give extra skills/skill points, since they should be able to cover it.
Crystal Monk 07-06-07, 09:52 AM	At each level, have the gestalt get the following skill points : [highest base] + [Int modifier] + [miscellaneous modifier] + [lowest base - 2 ; minimum 2]I really like that, it makes a lot of sense without being too overpowering. I might go with that, thank you.
Lawkeeper 07-06-07, 10:28 AM	You're welcome. In fact, with my group we're using the same formula without the -2, but : - few games are played with all party members (hence the need for duplicate skills at least) - every PC is required to take at least one full Craft or Profession skill And characters appear rather fine as such.:)
Ganeldil 07-17-07, 10:53 AM	Another option would be to use the variant rules from some Monte's stuff. Like linking some skills and allowing 1 point buys to advance the group instead of just the individual skill.
Lawkeeper 07-17-07, 11:14 AM	Another option would be to use the variant rules from some Monte's stuff. Like linking some skills and allowing 1 point buys to advance the group instead of just the individual skill. Where do you find that stuff ?:confused:
Dazzer 07-17-07, 12:31 PM	A friend of mine who likes running gestault, and loves players to be immensely powerful has the following solution. Add one half the number of skills of the lower skilled class to your skill points per level. For example: Fighter/Wizard gets 3 + int skills (2, +1 from half of 2, ) Rogue/Scout gets 12 + int skills Rogue/Bard gets 9 + int skills Ranger/Druid gets 8 + int skills etc... This makes players who play two highly skill classes EXTREMELY skills-related, and players who play two low skill characters get a small bonus. It works out best for the players who play a low skilled (2 or 4) and a high skilled in terms of overall balance (6 or 8)
Ganeldil 07-17-07, 03:19 PM	Where do you find that stuff ?:confused: Iron Heroes, which was actually written by WoTC's own Mike Mearls :) I am not sure if I can link to it without violating a policy but if you search you should be able to find it.
Lawkeeper 07-17-07, 03:30 PM	Iron Heroes, which was actually written by WoTC's own Mike Mearls :) I am not sure if I can link to it without violating a policy but if you search you should be able to find it. Oh, right, that's another view of D&D entirely. I've already been tempted to simply purchase it and mix both systems (that's gonna make them powerful, but hell! my special prestige-gestalt rules already make for uber characters), but I just think it'd be too much. Thanks nevertheless.:)
Ganeldil 07-17-07, 03:39 PM	Oh, right, that's another view of D&D entirely. I've already been tempted to simply purchase it and mix both systems (that's gonna make them powerful, but hell! my special prestige-gestalt rules already make for uber characters), but I just think it'd be too much. Thanks nevertheless.:) It's really great stuff, it's all about really powerful PC's doing amazing things. You could adopt the skill group thing really easy basically for example Climb, Ride, Swim would be in a group and 1 skill point would raise them all 1 rank. Bluff, Intimidate, diplomacy would be 1 group etc....it actually makes sense.