Gestalt Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Variant [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
QuantumSteve
10-16-07, 03:58 AM This can't be an original idea, but I can't fin it anywhere.

How would a gestalt character based on the old 2e rules measure up?

Same:
Both class abilities progress.
Better Saves
Better Bab

Different:
Average HD (instead of better)
50% XP penalty

This would keep Gestalt characters 2 Lvs behind the rest of the party, Which is about the accepted CR difference.

A link to a thread where this is already discussed would be good.
Krugg
10-16-07, 11:08 AM Um, are you under the impression that Gestalt is something that some players can just choose to use? Because, that's not how it is supposed to work - either everyone plays by gestalt rules, or no one does. So there's no "rest of the party" for them to be 2 levels behind.
Xeorsos
10-23-07, 04:05 PM Um, are you under the impression that Gestalt is something that some players can just choose to use? Because, that's not how it is supposed to work - either everyone plays by gestalt rules, or no one does. So there's no "rest of the party" for them to be 2 levels behind.

I've seen many DMs run with this concept, and I have to say- it's a very interesting one. Gestalt was designed as an all-or-none mechanic, but allowing some players to take it optionally is a unique way to do it. I like it!

Comparing power levels, I can only refer back to the Mystic Theurge. Trailing behind your straight-classed party mates, you're a god among insects. Average HP would eliminate some of the more silly combinations (Barbarian/Wizard) and keep players on key.
deathbane
10-23-07, 08:15 PM There is no way to balance it, even in all gestalt campaigns, because not all gestalts are equal. A gestalt character has the best of both worlds, but is still limited to one set of actions per round that is why most DM's give gestalt parties fights one CR above their level. It might look neat on paper, but any gestlat character that even half-way knows what they are doing will be nigh unstoppable if the CR's are set to the other members abilities, and the if you up the challenge then the rest of the party won't make it. I ran one gestlat campaign, and once they got to around level 9, where both halves of the combinations had hit their "sweet-spots" they ran over everything.
My advice is don't do it, however the choice is yours.
Xeorsos
10-24-07, 12:26 AM There is no way to balance it, even in all gestalt campaigns, because not all gestalts are equal. A gestalt character has the best of both worlds, but is still limited to one set of actions per round that is why most DM's give gestalt parties fights one CR above their level. It might look neat on paper, but any gestlat character that even half-way knows what they are doing will be nigh unstoppable if the CR's are set to the other members abilities, and the if you up the challenge then the rest of the party won't make it. I ran one gestlat campaign, and once they got to around level 9, where both halves of the combinations had hit their "sweet-spots" they ran over everything.
My advice is don't do it, however the choice is yours.

You make a decent point, but I'm still digging the idea of running with gestalt characters. Perhaps you can apply some rules to limit the munching of gestalt combos. Here are a few that I always liked to reign in the power. Feel free to pick and choose:
--One side must be straight classed, 1 to 20.
--The character cannot take prestige classes
--A full caster (anything that gets more than 4th level spells) may only be taken on a single side, not both. You may choose to include Invocation and Psionic classes in this as well.
--Multiclass penalties apply, treating each side separately

You might also try scouring the boards for variant rules that could help keep your Gestalt characters on par. Keep an eye out for game-breaking combinations, like Druid//Cleric.
deathbane
10-24-07, 03:14 AM You make a decent point, but I'm still digging the idea of running with gestalt characters. Perhaps you can apply some rules to limit the munching of gestalt combos. Here are a few that I always liked to reign in the power. Feel free to pick and choose:
--One side must be straight classed, 1 to 20.
--The character cannot take prestige classes
--A full caster (anything that gets more than 4th level spells) may only be taken on a single side, not both. You may choose to include Invocation and Psionic classes in this as well.
--Multiclass penalties apply, treating each side separately

You might also try scouring the boards for variant rules that could help keep your Gestalt characters on par. Keep an eye out for game-breaking combinations, like Druid//Cleric.

With a gestalt, even if there is no multiclassing, an efficient(not even powergaming) player can do fairly well. Every class has a weakness even Codzilla, but a gestalt character that is built to cover up the weakness of the other class will be hard(nigh impossible) to stop, and variant rules normally make classes better. You might want to ban variant classes, and stick to the basic ones. I think druid/cleric would both fit your caster category so that should be an automatic ban, and while they work well separately, they don't compliment each other well as a gestalt class due to similar features, however if you really want to do it go for it.
Xeorsos
10-24-07, 04:29 AM With a gestalt, even if there is no multiclassing, an efficient(not even powergaming) player can do fairly well. Every class has a weakness even Codzilla, but a gestalt character that is built to cover up the weakness of the other class will be hard(nigh impossible) to stop, and variant rules normally make classes better. You might want to ban variant classes, and stick to the basic ones. I think druid/cleric would both fit your caster category so that should be an automatic ban, and while they work well separately, they don't compliment each other well as a gestalt class due to similar features, however if you really want to do it go for it.

I really do agree with you, Deathbane. I've played several Gestalt games, and I know how much more powerful you become when you get to cover all your bases with a simple class combination. Hell, even Wizard/Fighter is ridiculous because you can pimp out your weapon spells (Weapon Focus (Ray), Improved Critical (Ray), Power Critical (Ray), etc) while stocking up on a great Base Attack Bonus, awesome HP, and your crappy saves.

I keep expanding on the concept though because QuantumSteve came here in hopes of making this work, not being shot down. I don't think it'll ever be an astroglide smooth fit, but with a lot of tweaking it could possibly work.

Another idea, by the way. You might consider keeping the gestalt characters 3 levels behind the rest of the party instead of just 2. When I think about Hybrid prestige classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Eldrich Theurge) they tend to keep you 3 levels behind your base classes, and these PrCs are essentially Gestalt characters. 3 levels is a hefty fine to pay for gestalt, but considering the power level there I think it would balance it out really well.
deathbane
10-24-07, 04:52 AM I really do agree with you, Deathbane. I've played several Gestalt games, and I know how much more powerful you become when you get to cover all your bases with a simple class combination. Hell, even Wizard/Fighter is ridiculous because you can pimp out your weapon spells (Weapon Focus (Ray), Improved Critical (Ray), Power Critical (Ray), etc) while stocking up on a great Base Attack Bonus, awesome HP, and your crappy saves.

I keep expanding on the concept though because QuantumSteve came here in hopes of making this work, not being shot down. I don't think it'll ever be an astroglide smooth fit, but with a lot of tweaking it could possibly work.

Another idea, by the way. You might consider keeping the gestalt characters 3 levels behind the rest of the party instead of just 2. When I think about Hybrid prestige classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Eldrich Theurge) they tend to keep you 3 levels behind your base classes, and these PrCs are essentially Gestalt characters. 3 levels is a hefty fine to pay for gestalt, but considering the power level there I think it would balance it out really well.

I understand. I don't ever intend to shoot anyone down, but I would hate to see him come back here with a "how do I stop these guys" post. Taking 3 levels affects skill points, which may or may not matter that much, but HP always matter.
This is going to be a tough fit because even if they are balanced at level 5 or 6 by keeping the gestalts 2 or 3 levels behind, by the time they get to the 12-15 level range(assuming it goes that high) they could be causing problems again depending on the skill of the player, and the meshing of the classes.
A DM could ask the players to tone it down, but that detracts from the fun of playing the class, however if they do everything the other party members may start to feel useless.
I think everyone should be gestalt. It will make his job a lot easier than by having some gestalt, and others not.

:lightbulb
QuantumSteve, I think you will have to give info about the exact gestalt combination(once your players choose them) to members of the forum. I doubt a blanket rule will work. We will also need to know the level you plan to start and finish the campaign. I figure that way you can get what you want.
ppirilla
10-24-07, 06:30 PM The Gestalt Class group:

Prerequesites: Exactly one level in two different base classes, and no levels in any other class.

Gestalt is a group of classes that provide you with the best of two worlds, but at a considerable cost.

When you enter the Gestalt class, you can advance both of your base classes simultaneously. You use the higher progression of BAB and each save. Your class skills are the class skills from both base classes, and you gain a number of skill points per level equal to the higher of the two base classes. Your Hit Die is the average HD of the two classes, rounded up to the next used HD (see below.)

At each level, you gain all unique abilities from both classes for that level. (Copy rules from UA to explain further.)

Mastering two sets of skills comes with a price. Characters who take a Gestalt Class may never again advance in any base class. Characters who enter the Gestalt Class gain a +1 level adjustment as though they acquired a racial template. The difficult nature of studying two classes causes characters in a Gestalt Class take a 20% penalty to XP as though they have a multiclassing penalty.

Hit Dice
d4 + d6 = d6
d4 + d8 = d6
d4 + d10 = d8
d4 + d12 = d8
d6 + d8 = d8
d6 + d10 = d8
d6 + d12 = d10
d8 + d10 = d10
d8 + d12 = d10
d10 + d12 = d12

Since this PrC has not yet been thoroughly playtested, the DM has the right to change the LA of a character with levels in Gestalt whenever he sees fit.
deathbane
10-24-07, 08:54 PM Since this PrC has not yet been thoroughly playtested, the DM has the right to change the LA of a character with levels in Gestalt whenever he sees fit.

Arbitrarily changing a player's level will make them throw all their books at you at once. It is better to come up with a solid rule, at least for that campaign, than to save you did have an ECL of 4, but now it is 7, now it is 6, now it is 1, and later say it is 12.

I don't beleive things will be that extreme, but I am sure you get the point.
ppirilla
10-24-07, 10:51 PM Arbitrarily changing a player's level will make them throw all their books at you at once. It is better to come up with a solid rule, at least for that campaign, than to save you did have an ECL of 4, but now it is 7, now it is 6, now it is 1, and later say it is 12.

I don't beleive things will be that extreme, but I am sure you get the point.

The disclaimer is just because at this point, it's still a work in progress. It might be more balanced at LA +2, it might be just fine without the LA. I'm not entirely sure.

And, every time I give my players rules that might not balanced correctly yet, I warn them and tell them exactly what I might change. I particularly like leaving LA open because changing it really has no immediate impact on gameplay, but it lets me change relative rates that players gain XP so that things eventually start to even up.

Basically, it leaves me an opening to fix things if my houserule is brokenly powerful or stupidly weak, but the goal is to not need it.
pigknight
10-30-07, 09:13 PM Really have you guys play tested that druid/cleric against most other gesalt combos? In gesalt games all players and npcs are supposed to be gesalt. Also I completely ban multiclassing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
QuantumSteve 10-16-07, 03:58 AM	This can't be an original idea, but I can't fin it anywhere. How would a gestalt character based on the old 2e rules measure up? Same: Both class abilities progress. Better Saves Better Bab Different: Average HD (instead of better) 50% XP penalty This would keep Gestalt characters 2 Lvs behind the rest of the party, Which is about the accepted CR difference. A link to a thread where this is already discussed would be good.
Krugg 10-16-07, 11:08 AM	Um, are you under the impression that Gestalt is something that some players can just choose to use? Because, that's not how it is supposed to work - either everyone plays by gestalt rules, or no one does. So there's no "rest of the party" for them to be 2 levels behind.
Xeorsos 10-23-07, 04:05 PM	Um, are you under the impression that Gestalt is something that some players can just choose to use? Because, that's not how it is supposed to work - either everyone plays by gestalt rules, or no one does. So there's no "rest of the party" for them to be 2 levels behind. I've seen many DMs run with this concept, and I have to say- it's a very interesting one. Gestalt was designed as an all-or-none mechanic, but allowing some players to take it optionally is a unique way to do it. I like it! Comparing power levels, I can only refer back to the Mystic Theurge. Trailing behind your straight-classed party mates, you're a god among insects. Average HP would eliminate some of the more silly combinations (Barbarian/Wizard) and keep players on key.
deathbane 10-23-07, 08:15 PM	There is no way to balance it, even in all gestalt campaigns, because not all gestalts are equal. A gestalt character has the best of both worlds, but is still limited to one set of actions per round that is why most DM's give gestalt parties fights one CR above their level. It might look neat on paper, but any gestlat character that even half-way knows what they are doing will be nigh unstoppable if the CR's are set to the other members abilities, and the if you up the challenge then the rest of the party won't make it. I ran one gestlat campaign, and once they got to around level 9, where both halves of the combinations had hit their "sweet-spots" they ran over everything. My advice is don't do it, however the choice is yours.
Xeorsos 10-24-07, 12:26 AM	There is no way to balance it, even in all gestalt campaigns, because not all gestalts are equal. A gestalt character has the best of both worlds, but is still limited to one set of actions per round that is why most DM's give gestalt parties fights one CR above their level. It might look neat on paper, but any gestlat character that even half-way knows what they are doing will be nigh unstoppable if the CR's are set to the other members abilities, and the if you up the challenge then the rest of the party won't make it. I ran one gestlat campaign, and once they got to around level 9, where both halves of the combinations had hit their "sweet-spots" they ran over everything. My advice is don't do it, however the choice is yours. You make a decent point, but I'm still digging the idea of running with gestalt characters. Perhaps you can apply some rules to limit the munching of gestalt combos. Here are a few that I always liked to reign in the power. Feel free to pick and choose: --One side must be straight classed, 1 to 20. --The character cannot take prestige classes --A full caster (anything that gets more than 4th level spells) may only be taken on a single side, not both. You may choose to include Invocation and Psionic classes in this as well. --Multiclass penalties apply, treating each side separately You might also try scouring the boards for variant rules that could help keep your Gestalt characters on par. Keep an eye out for game-breaking combinations, like Druid//Cleric.
deathbane 10-24-07, 03:14 AM	You make a decent point, but I'm still digging the idea of running with gestalt characters. Perhaps you can apply some rules to limit the munching of gestalt combos. Here are a few that I always liked to reign in the power. Feel free to pick and choose: --One side must be straight classed, 1 to 20. --The character cannot take prestige classes --A full caster (anything that gets more than 4th level spells) may only be taken on a single side, not both. You may choose to include Invocation and Psionic classes in this as well. --Multiclass penalties apply, treating each side separately You might also try scouring the boards for variant rules that could help keep your Gestalt characters on par. Keep an eye out for game-breaking combinations, like Druid//Cleric. With a gestalt, even if there is no multiclassing, an efficient(not even powergaming) player can do fairly well. Every class has a weakness even Codzilla, but a gestalt character that is built to cover up the weakness of the other class will be hard(nigh impossible) to stop, and variant rules normally make classes better. You might want to ban variant classes, and stick to the basic ones. I think druid/cleric would both fit your caster category so that should be an automatic ban, and while they work well separately, they don't compliment each other well as a gestalt class due to similar features, however if you really want to do it go for it.
Xeorsos 10-24-07, 04:29 AM	With a gestalt, even if there is no multiclassing, an efficient(not even powergaming) player can do fairly well. Every class has a weakness even Codzilla, but a gestalt character that is built to cover up the weakness of the other class will be hard(nigh impossible) to stop, and variant rules normally make classes better. You might want to ban variant classes, and stick to the basic ones. I think druid/cleric would both fit your caster category so that should be an automatic ban, and while they work well separately, they don't compliment each other well as a gestalt class due to similar features, however if you really want to do it go for it. I really do agree with you, Deathbane. I've played several Gestalt games, and I know how much more powerful you become when you get to cover all your bases with a simple class combination. Hell, even Wizard/Fighter is ridiculous because you can pimp out your weapon spells (Weapon Focus (Ray), Improved Critical (Ray), Power Critical (Ray), etc) while stocking up on a great Base Attack Bonus, awesome HP, and your crappy saves. I keep expanding on the concept though because QuantumSteve came here in hopes of making this work, not being shot down. I don't think it'll ever be an astroglide smooth fit, but with a lot of tweaking it could possibly work. Another idea, by the way. You might consider keeping the gestalt characters 3 levels behind the rest of the party instead of just 2. When I think about Hybrid prestige classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Eldrich Theurge) they tend to keep you 3 levels behind your base classes, and these PrCs are essentially Gestalt characters. 3 levels is a hefty fine to pay for gestalt, but considering the power level there I think it would balance it out really well.
deathbane 10-24-07, 04:52 AM	I really do agree with you, Deathbane. I've played several Gestalt games, and I know how much more powerful you become when you get to cover all your bases with a simple class combination. Hell, even Wizard/Fighter is ridiculous because you can pimp out your weapon spells (Weapon Focus (Ray), Improved Critical (Ray), Power Critical (Ray), etc) while stocking up on a great Base Attack Bonus, awesome HP, and your crappy saves. I keep expanding on the concept though because QuantumSteve came here in hopes of making this work, not being shot down. I don't think it'll ever be an astroglide smooth fit, but with a lot of tweaking it could possibly work. Another idea, by the way. You might consider keeping the gestalt characters 3 levels behind the rest of the party instead of just 2. When I think about Hybrid prestige classes (Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Eldrich Theurge) they tend to keep you 3 levels behind your base classes, and these PrCs are essentially Gestalt characters. 3 levels is a hefty fine to pay for gestalt, but considering the power level there I think it would balance it out really well. I understand. I don't ever intend to shoot anyone down, but I would hate to see him come back here with a "how do I stop these guys" post. Taking 3 levels affects skill points, which may or may not matter that much, but HP always matter. This is going to be a tough fit because even if they are balanced at level 5 or 6 by keeping the gestalts 2 or 3 levels behind, by the time they get to the 12-15 level range(assuming it goes that high) they could be causing problems again depending on the skill of the player, and the meshing of the classes. A DM could ask the players to tone it down, but that detracts from the fun of playing the class, however if they do everything the other party members may start to feel useless. I think everyone should be gestalt. It will make his job a lot easier than by having some gestalt, and others not. :lightbulb QuantumSteve, I think you will have to give info about the exact gestalt combination(once your players choose them) to members of the forum. I doubt a blanket rule will work. We will also need to know the level you plan to start and finish the campaign. I figure that way you can get what you want.
ppirilla 10-24-07, 06:30 PM	The Gestalt Class group: Prerequesites: Exactly one level in two different base classes, and no levels in any other class. Gestalt is a group of classes that provide you with the best of two worlds, but at a considerable cost. When you enter the Gestalt class, you can advance both of your base classes simultaneously. You use the higher progression of BAB and each save. Your class skills are the class skills from both base classes, and you gain a number of skill points per level equal to the higher of the two base classes. Your Hit Die is the average HD of the two classes, rounded up to the next used HD (see below.) At each level, you gain all unique abilities from both classes for that level. (Copy rules from UA to explain further.) Mastering two sets of skills comes with a price. Characters who take a Gestalt Class may never again advance in any base class. Characters who enter the Gestalt Class gain a +1 level adjustment as though they acquired a racial template. The difficult nature of studying two classes causes characters in a Gestalt Class take a 20% penalty to XP as though they have a multiclassing penalty. Hit Dice d4 + d6 = d6 d4 + d8 = d6 d4 + d10 = d8 d4 + d12 = d8 d6 + d8 = d8 d6 + d10 = d8 d6 + d12 = d10 d8 + d10 = d10 d8 + d12 = d10 d10 + d12 = d12 Since this PrC has not yet been thoroughly playtested, the DM has the right to change the LA of a character with levels in Gestalt whenever he sees fit.
deathbane 10-24-07, 08:54 PM	Since this PrC has not yet been thoroughly playtested, the DM has the right to change the LA of a character with levels in Gestalt whenever he sees fit. Arbitrarily changing a player's level will make them throw all their books at you at once. It is better to come up with a solid rule, at least for that campaign, than to save you did have an ECL of 4, but now it is 7, now it is 6, now it is 1, and later say it is 12. I don't beleive things will be that extreme, but I am sure you get the point.
ppirilla 10-24-07, 10:51 PM	Arbitrarily changing a player's level will make them throw all their books at you at once. It is better to come up with a solid rule, at least for that campaign, than to save you did have an ECL of 4, but now it is 7, now it is 6, now it is 1, and later say it is 12. I don't beleive things will be that extreme, but I am sure you get the point. The disclaimer is just because at this point, it's still a work in progress. It might be more balanced at LA +2, it might be just fine without the LA. I'm not entirely sure. And, every time I give my players rules that might not balanced correctly yet, I warn them and tell them exactly what I might change. I particularly like leaving LA open because changing it really has no immediate impact on gameplay, but it lets me change relative rates that players gain XP so that things eventually start to even up. Basically, it leaves me an opening to fix things if my houserule is brokenly powerful or stupidly weak, but the goal is to not need it.
pigknight 10-30-07, 09:13 PM	Really have you guys play tested that druid/cleric against most other gesalt combos? In gesalt games all players and npcs are supposed to be gesalt. Also I completely ban multiclassing.