Gestalt Villains... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Gestalt Villains... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
claypigeons
08-17-07, 01:18 AM While I know I could duplicate the desired effects with fluff and careful class choice, I'd like to try to do it mechanically.

So, what would the CR adjustment be for a gestalt villain (in a game where the PCs aren't gestalt)?

Obviously class choice would have some effect, but gestalt itself isn't that much of a power increase (more stuff to do, same amount of actions).

Let's say...

Non-caster Favourable classes (rogue//fighter)?

Non-caster unfavourable... (Monk//Swashbuckler)

Full Caster unfavourable ... (Sorc//Wizard)

Full caster Favourable classes (Sorc//Warmage)

Half/half favourable (meh... swashbuckler//wizard)

Half/Half unfavourable (Bard//Monk)
claypigeons
08-17-07, 06:40 PM Not quite 24 hours yet...

But *bump*...

I'd really appreciate some input. :D
Xaer
08-17-07, 07:04 PM I'd say make it 4/3 the normal CR, up to a max increase of +4CR. That's for an optimal setup of classes, dunno what'd you do for a suboptimal.
ppirilla
08-18-07, 04:32 PM I'd just reverse the given rules. Unearthed Arcana suggests that a party of four gestalt characters can take on a challenge with CR= average party level +2 (lower if the opponent has attacks that force saves, etc)

Thus, I would think that a gestalt character has a LA of about +2, maybe +1 for a weak combination.
Vaelan
08-18-07, 11:32 PM +1. Gestalt is largely negligible when you're fighting against four people. It keeps you alive a bit longer, but you're still handily outmatched.
eamon
08-19-07, 02:24 PM In my experience, the normal measuring stick: namely that an Nth level NPC is CR N, overrates the challenge posed by NPC's, especially at higher levels. This is partially due to the fact that PC wealth completely outclasses NPC wealth very quickly, and partly due to the fact that generally PC's are more optimal - their players simply know more about their characters and have more brains than one DM. So a normal NPC villian with NPC wealth I'd judge as CR of level -2 or below 5th or so level CR of level-1. This nicely compensates for the benefits of gestalting: so I wouldn't consider it crazy to give a gestalted NPC it's character level as CR. :-).
claypigeons
08-19-07, 05:25 PM Thank you for the replies. :D

I think I'm going to try eamon's idea out first and see how it goes (as I've noticed similar things).
Jethr0Paladin
08-21-07, 11:05 AM Why bother even giving the villain an actual level? Give him exactly what you want him to have, and then figure out how challenging the villain is with his combat tactics. A single CR9 villain, even if he's a wizard with ranged disarm on his magic missiles, and uses an artillery cannon an artificer made which lobs fireballs at increments of 300 feet isn't a threat to the PCs if they catch him off guard and gank him up close.

I got off topic. What I'm trying to say is, the DMG says early on that the DM chooses what rules to follow, and which to ignore. As a DM, you're not bound to creating villains who follow the same rules as the PCs. And being a villain, he probably shouldn't.
Fsi-Dib
08-22-07, 12:42 AM And to add to Jethr0paladin's post, a twist in the villains gives all the players a strange look on their faces. In case there would be a metagamer in the group, he would no longer be able to tell what abilities your villain possesses.

Might be a little too off-topic, but advice is advice. I, for one, despise the whole CR table (IMO a human rogue 4 is CR 2; a human expert 4 is CR 1.33). It is easily misleading, all the monster manuals are unbalanced when compared, ... fortunately, as a DM, you get to choose. If you want a villain to have Intelligence 24, just make him have instead of giving a Headband of Intellect +6 (a new DM at my group did this once).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
claypigeons 08-17-07, 01:18 AM	While I know I could duplicate the desired effects with fluff and careful class choice, I'd like to try to do it mechanically. So, what would the CR adjustment be for a gestalt villain (in a game where the PCs aren't gestalt)? Obviously class choice would have some effect, but gestalt itself isn't that much of a power increase (more stuff to do, same amount of actions). Let's say... Non-caster Favourable classes (rogue//fighter)? Non-caster unfavourable... (Monk//Swashbuckler) Full Caster unfavourable ... (Sorc//Wizard) Full caster Favourable classes (Sorc//Warmage) Half/half favourable (meh... swashbuckler//wizard) Half/Half unfavourable (Bard//Monk)
claypigeons 08-17-07, 06:40 PM	Not quite 24 hours yet... But bump... I'd really appreciate some input. :D
Xaer 08-17-07, 07:04 PM	I'd say make it 4/3 the normal CR, up to a max increase of +4CR. That's for an optimal setup of classes, dunno what'd you do for a suboptimal.
ppirilla 08-18-07, 04:32 PM	I'd just reverse the given rules. Unearthed Arcana suggests that a party of four gestalt characters can take on a challenge with CR= average party level +2 (lower if the opponent has attacks that force saves, etc) Thus, I would think that a gestalt character has a LA of about +2, maybe +1 for a weak combination.
Vaelan 08-18-07, 11:32 PM	+1. Gestalt is largely negligible when you're fighting against four people. It keeps you alive a bit longer, but you're still handily outmatched.
eamon 08-19-07, 02:24 PM	In my experience, the normal measuring stick: namely that an Nth level NPC is CR N, overrates the challenge posed by NPC's, especially at higher levels. This is partially due to the fact that PC wealth completely outclasses NPC wealth very quickly, and partly due to the fact that generally PC's are more optimal - their players simply know more about their characters and have more brains than one DM. So a normal NPC villian with NPC wealth I'd judge as CR of level -2 or below 5th or so level CR of level-1. This nicely compensates for the benefits of gestalting: so I wouldn't consider it crazy to give a gestalted NPC it's character level as CR. :-).
claypigeons 08-19-07, 05:25 PM	Thank you for the replies. :D I think I'm going to try eamon's idea out first and see how it goes (as I've noticed similar things).
Jethr0Paladin 08-21-07, 11:05 AM	Why bother even giving the villain an actual level? Give him exactly what you want him to have, and then figure out how challenging the villain is with his combat tactics. A single CR9 villain, even if he's a wizard with ranged disarm on his magic missiles, and uses an artillery cannon an artificer made which lobs fireballs at increments of 300 feet isn't a threat to the PCs if they catch him off guard and gank him up close. I got off topic. What I'm trying to say is, the DMG says early on that the DM chooses what rules to follow, and which to ignore. As a DM, you're not bound to creating villains who follow the same rules as the PCs. And being a villain, he probably shouldn't.
Fsi-Dib 08-22-07, 12:42 AM	And to add to Jethr0paladin's post, a twist in the villains gives all the players a strange look on their faces. In case there would be a metagamer in the group, he would no longer be able to tell what abilities your villain possesses. Might be a little too off-topic, but advice is advice. I, for one, despise the whole CR table (IMO a human rogue 4 is CR 2; a human expert 4 is CR 1.33). It is easily misleading, all the monster manuals are unbalanced when compared, ... fortunately, as a DM, you get to choose. If you want a villain to have Intelligence 24, just make him have instead of giving a Headband of Intellect +6 (a new DM at my group did this once).