Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nifft 04-05-04, 03:37 PM	Are Half-Celestial / Half-Fiend non-Gestalt PCs balanced against normal-race Gestalt PCs? (In general terms, it seems to me that they basically are.) Anyone tried this yet? I'm thinking of doing a high-level Gestalt one-shot... -- N
Illithidbix 04-05-04, 05:35 PM	What level? At low levels possibly, but beyond about 3-4, certainly not. A half celestrial is ECL +3 IIRC... and gains some nice ability mods, DR, SR and special abilities etc But comparing that to a mid-to high level gestalt that combines the best features of two classes, to the point where they're probably about 1 1/2 times as powerful as a normal character the same level. I mean compare a 8th level Half celestrial wizard with a Monk/Wizard gestalt (admittedly one of nastier combinations), all those little ability bonuses, DR5/magic, SR 18 and a few special abilities (the best being able to cure serious wounds once/day, I doubt a wizard will get much use out of holy smite) compared to D8 HD rather than D4, ALL decent saves, decent BaB, Monk Unarmed attack (he's one wizard who really doesn't care if people try to close to melee) then that long list of 8th level monk abilities. A Half-Celestial wizard is basically just a wizard who's a little tougher, a Wizard-Monk Gesualt is a totally different opponent, all the conventional weaknesses (low fortitude and Hp, can't stand up to a melee attack) have been effectively negated At high levels EL benefits become less and less revenant and influential, one of the reasons they had the rules suggestion allowing characters to "buy off EL", at high levels gesult possibly become even more powerful as the differences in abilities of the classes becomes more promimient, yet the gesult combines both. Gesults transend just about anything else in the system, the only way to beat them is to just pile in raw numbers of levels and HD.
Nifft 04-05-04, 05:56 PM	Well, a Half-Celestial Wizard is about the worst case IMHO. They don't benefit from natural flight or from a boost to most stats (esp. Charisma, Wisdom and Strength). Consider instead a Gestalt Monk/Wiz (your favored combo) with a Half-Celestial Monk, or a Half-Fiend Barbarian. Anyone care to do a power analysis on that? Thanks, -- N
Illithidbix 04-05-04, 06:15 PM	Hmm, still would say that 8th level wizard spells (& metamagic) tops it, by a fair margin. Whilst the Half-Celestrial template does give some nice bonuses (and I missed the flying bit). Most of the ability boosts and resistances can be gained nicely from 2nd spells anyway, and flight from a 3rd level spell, I know it's not as good as having it permanently but then take into account all the other spells a wizard can cast, some really could be nasty as a monk. What's more a Gesualt could act in either way, he can be a wizard and fling spells, and benifiting from all the special defences, AC bonuses, Saves and HD of a Monk, or he can empower himsleves with spells and wade into melee (imagine how nasty fireshield becomes when it's cast by a Monk). As for half-fiend barbarian… well he's still only performing like a marginally superior barbarian, not as two very different characters rolled into one, covering almost all the weaknesses of both. And that’s only the Combat applications, I mean out-of combat the half celestial gives a bit of evil detection and curing, but nothing more than a low level paladin or cleric however a monk wizard gesult has the stealth, athetics and scouting of a monk with the sheer vesitility of a wizard. Gesalts still total for me.
Nifft 04-06-04, 01:50 AM	You may be right. I wonder what boosts would need to be made to the Half-Fiend template to make it equal to a Gestalt... Additional spell-like abilities (at least 1/level), preferably a choice of Necromantic spells Natural armor boosts over levels Extra Smite Goods over levels Extra ability boosts over levels I think it's not too bad right now. Consider that a Half-Fiend gets +1 hp/level (Con +2) and +2 skill points/level (Int +4). Hmmm... basically, I'd have to make Half-Fiend into a balanced 20-level class, and allow levels to be taken in it. Hmmmm. -- N
Tywyll 04-06-04, 02:51 AM	Originally posted by Nifft Are Half-Celestial / Half-Fiend non-Gestalt PCs balanced against normal-race Gestalt PCs? (In general terms, it seems to me that they basically are.) Anyone tried this yet? I'm thinking of doing a high-level Gestalt one-shot... -- N Why limit it to a non-Gestalt? I'm currently running a party of Gestalt characters. Most of them have ECL. I handled it thusly (and this was discussed on another thread, you can agree or disagree with the methods, but whatever): Either A) Split ECL in half and count that as the modified ECL of the Gestalt character (so HF and HC would be 2 ECL) or B) Allow the player to consider level adjustment as part of their Gestalt advancement. I will warn you, if you do this, you definatly need to use the fraction saves sidebar, just to avoid head aches in figureing saves. This is the one I am using. We just assume that for the levels 1-4, you were Gestalting with a zero benefit class (so you get the best of a single class, versus the other characters that get the best of two classes... your class abilities are still weaker than the straight, non-ECL pcs, et, etc). Now, of course, one advantage this gives is that they get HD when they normally wouldn't. But in a Gestalt game, does it really matter that much?
Lina_Inverse 04-07-04, 01:09 AM	gestalt charecters are 50% stronger,50% stronger equates to +1ecl therefore,in theory.a half-celestriel is stronger than a gestalt...in theory.:rolleyes: